Vagrancy Act 1824

Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede Excerpts

Wednesday 17th May 2023 Lords Chamber

[Lord Sharpe of Epsom (Con)]

I cannot specifically answer as regards all prison leavers. I know that a lot of work is being done with the rehabilitation of drug addicts in an effort to prevent recidivism. I will come back to the right reverend Prelate with more detail, if I can find it.

[Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede (Lab)]

My Lords, the 1824 Act makes reference to “idle and disorderly” persons, “rogues and vagabonds”. I would be grateful if the Minister could confirm that this is not a reference to Conservative Peers. The 2019 manifesto committed the party opposite to ending rough sleeping by 2024, yet it continues to rise. It is up by 74% in the last 10 years and may be up by a quarter in the last year. What do the Government intend to do to reverse this trend?

[Lord Sharpe of Epsom (Con)]

The noble Lord is a magistrate. I will not comment on his first point, other to say that I am sure most of my colleagues would prefer not to appear in front of him. The statistics he gives are not quite as bad as he made them sound. The numbers are much lower than when homelessness peaked in 2017. Although there was a slight spike last year, they are significantly below previous peak levels.

Licensing Act 2003 (Liaison Committee Report)

Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede Excerpts

Wednesday 17th May 2023 Grand Committee

[Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede (Lab)]

My Lords, I congratulate the noble Baroness, Lady McIntosh, on her report. Many of my questions will echo those she set out in opening this short debate. I do not really have any interests to declare, other than that I served on the licensing committee of a local authority many years ago and that I sit, and have in the past heard licensing appeals, as a magistrate, although that is a very rare occurrence. Nevertheless, I recognise the expertise demonstrated in this short debate.

Clearly, the inquiry did not focus on the impact of Covid-19 on licensing, but it is fair to say that its impact on our hospitality sector and licensed premises has been profound. The adaptions that were made to ensure people could enjoy licensed entertainment safely during the pandemic have acted as a reminder of the importance of this sector to our everyday lives. It is also important that we get things right in minimising alcohol-related harms while supporting a vibrant night-time economy.

It is clear from this report and the government response that we still have some way to go. Ensuring that our licensing and planning systems work well together despite what the Government describe as differing objectives seems to be something that should be worked on further; this should include effective local authority training on licensing that improves outcomes. Training for police officers on licensing and issues impacting the night-time economy has also been welcomed by the Government, who must play their role in ensuring that this training package is introduced as soon as possible and regularly reviewed to ensure that it complies with regulations.

The Government stated in their response to the report that they were establishing a national working group to bring together policing and licensing partners with a focus on police-led interventions to reduce alcohol-related offending. What progress has been made on setting up this working group?

The report also highlights clear shortcomings in equality of access to licensed premises. The Government have noted the legal routes available when premises do not comply with equalities law. It also points out that the EHRC has a role in monitoring how the Act is being complied with in particular sectors and can take action where it is considered necessary. Does the Minister feel that cultural change needs to be encouraged—by this, I mean greater acceptance and encouragement of people with disabilities attending licensed premises? If so, how will the Government work to support bringing about such change to ensure that, rather than taking action against premises that do not comply, we are encouraging premises to comply because it would be in their own interests?

The report mentions the late-night levy and issues with its current application. The Government recently consulted on the late-night levy with the consultation period ending around six weeks ago. Do they yet have a timetable for their response?

Finally, the Government did not provide a full response to the committee’s recommendations on a national database of personal licence holders. Has there been any progress on this since the Government’s response was published in November? The report covers a large number of issues within licensing and our night-time economy, not all of which I have covered.

Although most people drink alcohol in a sensible, responsible way, it is clear that there are persistent problems with the way some people behave because they drink too much. We hope that by implementing these small changes this harm can be minimised. I conclude by endorsing the sentiments laid out by the noble Lord, Lord Smith of Hindhead, about managing alcohol because the vast majority of people enjoy a drink and going out with friends and it is very much a cornerstone of the way many people live their lives. Nevertheless, this is an opportunity which I hope the Government will fully embrace when implementing these changes.

Economic Crime and Corporate Transparency Bill

Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede Excerpts

Committee stage
Tuesday 9th May 2023 Grand Committee

[Lord Faulks (Non-Afl)]

My Lords, of course, I echo the concern that has been expressed in the speeches so far about international corruption on an enormous scale.

In our debates, we have very much focused on what happens here in the United Kingdom. In our attack on the Government, it is worth bearing in mind that, in 2016, this Government hosted an international corruption summit; it was hosted by the then Prime Minister David Cameron, so many Prime Ministers ago. It was partly as a result of that that we had the then Criminal Finances Bill and there was an impetus—a very slow one, sadly—to set up a register of overseas entities. It was felt that, at least in this country, we should do all we could not to allow our properties and companies to be infected by corruption. Indeed, this Bill seeks to improve what has already been achieved although, in many ways, it has not gone far enough.

I respectfully submit that what is contained in this amendment is pretty aspirational stuff. There is nothing wrong with being aspirational. The International Criminal Court—I have been to conferences there—has had some success, but it must be remembered that Russia is not a party to the ICC and nor is the United States. It is one thing to say that it is relatively easy to set up a court, but you must have the proper means to enforce it and you have to invest huge sums of money in infrastructure. There has to be a degree of realism about this. Surely we should sort out matters at home as best we can first of all; that in itself will contribute to reducing international corruption. Putting on the statute book an obligation to set up an international court of this sort, which is what this amendment suggests, is premature at this stage, although one can do nothing but applaud the sentiments that lie behind it.

[Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede (Lab)]

My Lords, this has been a very interesting debate; it is the first debate in which we have spoken on a more international level. As we heard in our earlier debates, a large proportion of the quantity of money involved in fraud—well over 90%; probably 99%—has an international element; that is at the core of so much of the fraud with which we are dealing.

I congratulate the noble Lord, Lord Oates, on the way in which he introduced this group. I found his introduction rich and compelling. He set out things very fully. The other noble Lords who have spoken have talked about the aspirational nature of this amendment. I do not think that that is a criticism. It is good to hear about the other countries that are already taking a lead in trying to get the IACC set up.

From the Labour Party’s point of view, I have looked at what David Lammy has said on this matter. He has spoken about working internationally—I know that my noble friend Lord Hain led the work on that when he was a Foreign Office Minister—and promised that an incoming Labour Government would fight against dirty money in the UK by creating a transatlantic anti-corruption council alongside the US, EU and other allies. That is a different model from the one proposed in these amendments.

I do not want to stand here as an opposition spokesman saying that we are against what the noble Lord, Lord Oates, and the noble Baroness, Lady Bennett, are proposing but there are other potential models for bearing down on corruption. I listened with some interest to what the noble Lord, Lord Faulks, said about the practicalities of doing this and using legislation such as this to do everything we can on a domestic level, and internationally where we already have direct interest, to bear down on this huge level of corruption. Nevertheless, I thank the noble Lord for introducing this amendment.

[Lord Sharpe of Epsom (Con)]

My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Hain, and the noble Baroness, Lady Bennett, for their amendments in this group. I also thank all noble Lords for speaking in this debate.

I turn first to Amendment 103, which was tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Hain, but spoken to by the noble Lord, Lord Oates. If I may, I associate myself with the remarks of the noble Lord, Lord Ponsonby: the noble Lord, Lord Oates, made an incredibly powerful and eloquent case in moving this amendment 103, which also spoken to by the noble Baronesses, Lady Bennett and Lady Wheatcroft. Ensuring that those who are responsible for the most egregious acts of corruption are held to account is obviously vital. There should be no tolerance towards those who steal from the public to satisfy personal greed. The Government wholeheartedly endorse the premise that this amendment seeks to advance. The international community can and must do more to deter and punish acts of corruption.

The Government are taking robust action to ensure that the UK leads by example. That is why, in March, we published the second public-private economic crime plan, to which I referred in our debate on the previous group of amendments, which outlines ambitious actions to prevent the UK’s open economy being exploited by criminals and corrupt actors. The Government are also developing a new UK anti-corruption strategy to build on the progress made by the previous strategy and outline a refreshed approach to tackling corruption and illicit finance both in the UK and internationally.

The recently published fraud strategy also sets out the Government’s commitment to raise the priority of fraud on the international stage. We will drive forward global action through developing stronger relationships with international partners, culminating in a global fraud summit chaired by the Home Secretary and held in the UK next year. The summit will bring together leaders from Governments, law enforcement and the private sector to announce the ambition to deliver a comprehensive and co-ordinated approach to tackling fraud over the next five years.

The Government have consistently invested in efforts to bring those responsible for corruption to justice. The international corruption unit in the National Crime Agency is a specialist capability that investigates corruption cases with UK links.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Trevethin and Oaksey (CB)]

My Lords, I will say a few brief words in support of this amendment and place it in its proper legal context. When it was mentioned at Second Reading, the Government’s response was simply to say that the principle that the loser pays the costs of unsuccessful litigation or an unsuccessful application was regarded as a valuable principle and that they did not see sufficient reason to move away from it in this field. It is a salutary principle and it operates in civil litigation for the most part, but there are exceptions. There are already statutory precedents for a regime of the type that this amendment seeks to create, namely a regime in which the enforcement agency will not invariably have to pay the costs if an application is unsuccessful.

I will say a few words about a different, but quite closely related, area of law in which a regime of the type that this amendment contemplates has been created by the judges. In the field of professional discipline and professional regulation, there has been for some time a well-established principle that the regulator will not automatically have to pay costs merely because the application or prosecution that it has commenced has proved to be unsuccessful. It is known as the Baxendale-Walker principle and works perfectly well in practice.

I shall explain shortly how it works in practice. The proceedings are initiated and the respondent, being a professional person, is expected to engage properly and conscientiously with the regulator and to respond candidly, or with a reasonable degree of candour, to the points being made against him or it. If the regulator then continues unreasonably with the prosecution or disciplinary action and fails, it will be made to pay the costs of the matter. However, if the regulator at all times acts reasonably, the presumption will be that it will not be made to pay the costs of the matter.

The reason why the law has created that regime is precisely the reason that is contemplated by this amendment—namely, that it is strongly in the public interest that regulators and enforcement agencies should not be deterred from bringing proper proceedings by the risk of paying exorbitant costs bills to respondents who manage to successfully resist the application in question.

I think I have said enough to convey the point. I really do not understand why the Government are so reluctant to consider introducing a regime of this sort more widely across the field of economic crime. It already exists in relation to certain types of economic crime, and it works well in the field that I have mentioned. I would be very interested to hear the Minister’s response.

[Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede (Lab)]

My Lords, I support this amendment. As the noble Lord, Lord Agnew, said when he introduced it, cost exposure for prosecuting authorities can pose a real hurdle to their pursuing those prosecutions. As he also said, the Rubicon has been crossed in allowing cost capping, which the Government did in March 2022. This amendment has real legs—if I can use that phrase—and I hope the noble Lord presses the matter further, perhaps at later stages of the Bill.

I too was at the briefing with Bill Browder. I am currently reading his second book, having read his first, and it is compelling reading. He is a very brave man. I also agree with the comments made by the noble Baroness, Lady Bowles. I think she said: the precedent and the need are there, and the solution is here. I agree with those sentiments.

Finally, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Trevethin and Oaksey, who set out, interestingly, that some judges in the civil courts have developed their own law on this matter regarding the enforcement agencies not necessarily having to bear all their costs. He gave an interesting example of a further precedent, if you like. I too will be interested to hear the Minister’s response to that. The matter will be considered very carefully with regard to the later stages of the Bill.

[Lord Sharpe of Epsom (Con)]

My Lords, I thank my noble friend Lord Agnew for tabling this amendment and all noble Lords for the points they have raised in this debate. Again, I reassure the Committee that the Government take economic crime very seriously and are taking the necessary steps to ensure that enforcement agencies can tackle illicit financial activities while upholding the fundamental principles that govern our entire civil justice system.

In civil legal proceedings the loser generally pays the legal costs of the winning party, as has been acknowledged. The “loser pays” principle is a fundamental pillar on which the whole basis of civil litigation operates. It helps to ensure that only stronger cases are brought and that the winning party is able to recover reasonable costs of vindicating their case, save for in exceptional circumstances, to ensure access to justice for individuals with very limited resources. While important, civil recovery proceedings brought by enforcement agencies are not so exceptional as to warrant undermining the “loser pays” principle.

Several noble Lords have raised with me, and during this debate, the changes made to the unexplained wealth order regime by the Economic Crime (Transparency and Enforcement) Act 2022. These amended provisions in the Proceeds of Crime Act—POCA—introduce “costs protection” for enforcement agencies in cases of UWOs, unless they act unreasonably. This aimed to remove barriers to the use of UWO powers by relevant law enforcement teams. This was done on the basis that they were exceptional and likely to be low in volume in comparison to other types of civil recovery and, furthermore, that the relevant cost rules would be positioned as a novel and unique proposal, thereby maintaining the overall integrity of the “loser pays” principle in all other civil recovery proceedings. In the last five years, agencies with civil recovery powers—the Crown Prosecution Service, the National Crime Agency, the Serious Fraud Office, the Financial Conduct Authority and HM Revenue and Customs—have not paid any adverse costs for civil recovery proceedings.

There is also no guarantee that the introduction of further costs protection would lead to enforcement agencies pursuing more cases, as they report that each case must be assessed on its own merits considering numerous factors independent of costs liability, including gathering sufficient evidence to pursue a case and internal resourcing capability.

It is also worth bearing in mind that the Civil Procedure Rules, which guide the courts in procedural matters—I think this goes some way to answering the points raised by the noble Lord, Lord Oates—

Police: Restoring Public Confidence

Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede Excerpts

Wednesday 3rd May 2023 Grand Committee

[Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede (Lab)]

My Lords, I, too, open by thanking the noble Lord, Lord Lexden, for securing this debate on the state of public confidence in the police. Of course, I agree with pretty much every word that he said. A number of noble Lords have spoken about his indefatigability, and of course I agree with that as well.

We are all familiar with high-profile cases of the Met’s failure to prevent murder and violent crimes being done, not just by the general public but from within their own ranks. This has been the most prominent and worrying time for the Metropolitan Police in recent times. Just last week, we heard that the Met Police may also be failing to identify serial killers, in the wake of the appalling case of Stephen Port. In an HMICFRS report, five key failings were identified: a lack of training, poor supervision, unacceptable record-keeping, confusing policies and inadequate intelligence procedures. How are the Government urgently supporting the Met to fix that in relation not only to the most serious crimes but more widely?

Numerous media reports have also appeared about the recruitment of unsuitable candidates who have been given jobs as police officers in the lead-up to the deadline that the Government set themselves to meet their recruitment target. The report from the noble Baroness, Lady Casey, into the Met highlighted the lack of experience left in the police service, saying:

“On paper, we have the highest number of police officers”,


but that they have lost experienced police officers in recent years so that

“while on paper there are officers on seats, the lack of experience is noticeable”.

The Government need to provide a clear timeline for a legislative framework of standards to ensure that, even at times of high recruitment, we are hiring not rotten apples but only the best candidates—and, of course, there should be clear guidelines and standards from the start of their career. Why is it that in England and Wales we still have no mandatory national standards on police vetting, misconduct and training? Do the Government have a timeline for producing mandatory national standards? This goes to the same point that the noble Baroness, Lady Harris, talked about—the lamentable time that it can take to dismiss a police officer.

Delays in dealing with serious crime have also eroded public confidence; 90% of crimes are unsolved, victims are dropping out of the reporting process in their millions, and sexual offences are at record highs. How concerned is the Minister about this, and does he accept that this is an unsustainable situation which demands urgent action?

We also know the problems with police visibility and community engagement. I also agree with the noble Baroness, Lady Harris, about the golden thread, as she termed it, of public consent in supporting our police forces so that they can solve crimes. On this side of the Committee, we believe that neighbourhood policing has been hollowed out, leaving people feeling unsafe in their own neighbourhoods. Restoring public confidence in this area will certainly mean increasing the number of bobbies on the beat, being a visible and reassuring presence in communities. Those bobbies would have genuine local knowledge and relationships to deal with lower-level crime effectively. Have the Government considered the merits of committing to a target for putting more PCSOs and police officers on the streets?

In commenting on some noble Lords’ speeches, which have all given great expertise to this short debate, I want to pick out two particular points. First, I agreed with much of what the noble Lord, Lord Cormack, said, but he spoke about “Dixon of Dock Green” and how it was when that TV programme was on. I watched that programme when I was a boy, but I was a boy in London. I was stopped more times than I can remember by the police force in Notting Hill. I suspect my experience of the police force 50 years ago was very different from the one displayed in “Dixon of Dock Green”, so we should not be too sentimental about the past.

Secondly, I want to pick up the point from the noble Baroness, Lady O’Loan, about confidence in the police. Yesterday, I sat as a magistrate in the City of London Magistrates’ Court, dealing with the usual range of cases; there was nothing special yesterday. At lunchtime, I had a sandwich with a district judge friend of mine. He knew that I was going to take part in this debate. I asked him the one change he would make which would have the greatest benefit in building confidence in the police—one thing. He did not hesitate in his answer. He said, “Bring domestic abuse allegations to court the next day. Do it immediately. If you did that, you would get a far lower drop-out rate”. He is a travelling district judge and does DA work across the whole country. He has been absolutely appalled by the prevalence of this. Different parts of the country deal with it in different ways, but when I put that question to him he did not hesitate in his answer. He said he understood that it would be difficult, but that it would be the single thing that any Government could do to have the greatest impact.

I will tell the Minister, for nothing, that I will feed that idea into the Labour Party as a proposal for the manifesto and the like, but he is very welcome to take it forward himself. Other than that, I welcome this debate. It has shown great insight into the problems ahead of us. I thank the noble Lord, Lord Lexden, for moving the debate.

Code of Practice on the Recording and Retention of Personal Data in relation to Non-Crime Hate Incidents

Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede Excerpts

Wednesday 26th April 2023 Grand Committee

[Baroness Brinton (LD) [V]]

My Lords, in the Explanatory Memorandum, the Government say that they have consulted, although not formally, with “key policing stakeholders” but, as others have said, the Secondary Legislation Committee says in its 35th report that it asked the Home Office whether they had consulted more widely,

“for example, free speech advocates, those representing victims or data protection interest groups—and, if not, why was this not considered appropriate”.

The Government’s response worries me. They said:

“Given the democratic scrutiny that the code will be subject to and the comprehensive policing input received, the Government did not consult more widely”.


I will focus on how some of the other stakeholders might feel with the introduction of this. Parts of it are certainly welcome. My worry is about the boundaries between what are and are not non-crime hate incidents and other offences. I will come on to that.

At this point, I should declare that, as a disabled person who has used a wheelchair for a decade, I have been on the receiving end of hate crimes, non-crime hate incidents and, I am sorry to say, threatening behaviour and even assault. Some 15 years ago, I was also the victim of a harassment and stalking campaign sustained over a period of two years in which 100 incidents of escalating crimes—that is, nuisances then crimes—were committed, even though the initial incidents were not. So, as I read the code of practice, the boundaries between these different categories—especially in some of the examples, which are key to the education of officers in how they will assess what is and is not a non-crime hate incident—have raised questions.

The additional threshold test for the recording of data is helpful, especially if—as noted in paragraph 22 of the code of practice—the person

“who has experienced the incident is considered to be vulnerable”.

The existing guidelines on recognising vulnerability are extremely helpful and sensible, and to be commended. I ask the Minister: is the reference to vulnerability in the code strong enough, with only a passing reference to the guidelines then a need to click on a hyperlink?

This raises another concern: the examples focus on hate incidents, whether crime or non-crime, and ignore other considerations that police officers should perhaps address. In example D on page 15 of the code, which concerns a resident’s report of a number of NCHIs occurring in a dispute between neighbours, the wording in the box focuses entirely on whether or not to record these incidents as NCHIs. My issue is that other flags should be also raised about the neighbours’ dispute because of the volume of incidents reported. This certainly begins to look like harassment but the focus in the code is on the decision of whether to record.

The problem with harassment, especially that type of harassment, is that it escalates, often in a worsening pattern of behaviour. The early decision on whether or not to record is now weighed with the freedom of speech issue only. Part III of paragraph 31, on page 15 of the code, says:

“All recording authorities have a duty to balance the right to free expression … and/or a real risk that a future criminal offence may be committed against individuals or groups with a particular characteristic(s). All efforts should be made to avoid a chilling effect on free speech (including, but not limited to, lawful debate, humour, satire and personally held views)”.


My concern is with the phrase “all efforts”. The focus of that entire paragraph is free speech. Can the Minister assure me that the issues around an already visible pattern of behaviour—some criminal, some not—in a matter that might be, or progress to be, a crime of, say, affray, assault or harassment, are being considered only in terms of the narrow issue of crime/non-crime hate incidents and in relation to freedom of speech?

My next area of concern relates to two different points, one in paragraph 34 and one in example J, on pages 18 to 19 of the code. First, example J says:

“An individual who uses a wheelchair reports to the police that a man approached her during a house party and threatened her in circumstances that could amount to a crime under section 4 of the Public Order Act 1986. In doing so, the man also made derogatory comments about her disability. A police officer is of the view that this incident would have been recorded as a disability hate crime had this occurred in a public place given the demonstrable threat and hostility that was evident”.


The response to the scenario then focuses entirely on the Public Order Act not being enforceable in a private dwelling, therefore making the incident a non-crime hate incident, but says that, because of the threatening language and the possibility of future escalation, it should be processed and recorded.

I am horrified by this example. Assuming that threatening behaviour that could have amounted to a crime occurred, this is not just a Public Order Act offence. It could also be affray, assault or harassment, all of which are crimes. It also might not be a private event—as in a domestic one, implied by the use of “private dwelling”—even if it is in a private dwelling. If I went to a large party and was threatened—the word used at the beginning of the example—including with disability abuse, I as a victim would not understand why the Public Order Act negates my complaint. My concern would be about what just happened to me. Someone saying, “Sorry, madam, it just happened in the wrong place”, is not going to make me feel safer.

That is part of the problem with the lack of consultation with victims and community groups: this code is written for the police, with no understanding at all of where individual citizens and what happens to them fits in. Example J also illustrates a wider point for disabled people about how this code of practice will be viewed and operated, but it could equally apply to anyone with a protected characteristic.

About six years ago, I was waiting to exit through the wide ticket barriers at Euston. The woman in front of me was shouting down her phone and then, completely randomly, started to shout at me, complaining about my wheelchair being in her way and disabled people in general. This escalated into her trying to use a kick-boxing kick at me; fortunately, she missed me and hit the wheelchair, which I think left her worse off. Everyone else stood back until she ran off and then, too late, came to my aid. I had not said one word during this. I have to say that I was in shock. The noble Lord, Lord Jackson, will be pleased to hear that the British Transport Police was very helpful and supportive. The police found the CCTV and were absolutely clear that this was an attempt to assault me—the combination of shouting directly into my face and then the kick. They were also convinced that she targeted me because I was an easy target and disabled, so it was also recorded as a hate crime. But now the emphasis is on free speech.

As I read Example J, officers will spend their time focusing on whether it is or is not a hate crime incident or a non-crime hate incident and whether it needs to be recorded, rather than the highly abusive behaviour in which that woman used hate language to threaten me and attempted to physically hurt me. Can the Minister say how officers will be reminded that the priority must be to look at every incident as a whole, including other potential crimes, rather than solely to look at the code of practice?

Secondly, on the issue of reporting, I, along with many other disabled travellers, am on the end of abusive verbal incidents on trains. It happens regularly. Comments such as “People like you shouldn’t be allowed on the train during rush hour” or “Why are people like you taking up space where I want to sit?” are regular. They can and do also use abusive language, right in your face—“cripple”, “retard” or even worse. It may be a generic statement and fall under the Home Secretary’s definition of free speech, but the delivery of it leaves the recipient in no doubt that it was intended to be personal. It is personal, and train conductors say that they repeatedly see the same people behaving badly. The ability to record these incidents as NCHIs is therefore important, because it means that a pattern of behaviour can be tracked and followed, as needed. My concern is that police officers, always under pressure, might ever look only at the one incident in front of them; then, if they decide not to record it, there is no trail of consistent abusive behaviour.

Finally, the chair of a hate crime panel in the south-east said to us that they are concerned that this instrument will impact negatively on confidence in reporting. We know that confidence in the police is already low in some communities and these Benches are very concerned about it. For these reasons, starting with the lack of proper consultation as highlighted by the Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee’s report, and the unclear narrative in the text and examples about how this fits into broader incidents and crimes, and where the boundaries are, I give notice from these Benches that we may well want to bring this matter to the full House.

[Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede (Lab)]

My Lords, this new Draft Code of Practice on the Recording and Retention of Personal Data in relation to non-crime hate incidents has been created following the ruling of the Court of Appeal in 2021 in Miller v the College of Policing. The court found that the recording of non-crime hate incidents was lawful, but must be subject to more robust safeguards to ensure a better balance between responding to hate incidents and protecting freedom of speech. The Labour Party supports this revised code.

The code puts a lot of weight on using common sense, but I do not believe we should rely on that phrase too much to ensure its fair and uniform application at an operational level. What is common sense to an experienced officer may not be to a new recruit having to apply these rules for the first time. It also opens the code up to being abused. A number of noble Lords have talked about the importance of the education and training of officers.

Hate Crime

Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede Excerpts

Monday 24th April 2023 Lords Chamber

[Lord Sharpe of Epsom (Con)]

My noble friend asks an interesting question. I referred earlier to the Law Commission, which we asked to undertake a wide-ranging review into hate crime legislation. On the specific question, the Law Commission found that adding sex and gender to hate crime legislation could have made it more difficult to prosecute the most serious crimes that harm women and girls, including rape and domestic abuse. It would also treat sex unequally to other characteristics in scope of relevant hate crime laws, such as race or religion. So, while I cannot necessarily specifically answer my noble friend’s point, I would say that it is an incredibly complex area that needs very careful thought.

[Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede (Lab)]

My Lords, the Question from the noble Baroness, Lady Gohir, asked why hate crime statistics are not disaggregated by sex. But the question could equally be asked about why the data is not disaggregated by the age of the victim and the perpetrator. I well remember, when I sat on the pre-legislative scrutiny committee for the Domestic Abuse Bill, we had a lot of lobbying about violent acts against older people by younger people. Does the Minister agree that reporting the interaction of these characteristics, both sex and age, would allow resources to be better allocated for the victims and to prevent these types of crimes?

[Lord Sharpe of Epsom (Con)]

Again, the noble Lord raises an interesting point. He will be aware that age is not one of the five protected characteristics—as I get older, I am beginning to think that that is a mistake. I cannot answer his question in greater detail than that at the moment but I will certainly take it back to the department.

Chinese Police Stations in the UK

Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede Excerpts

Thursday 20th April 2023 Lords Chamber

[Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede (Lab)]

My Lords, yesterday in the Times newspaper there was a report into a Chinese businessman with links to an alleged Chinese secret police station in Croydon. This report raises serious questions about national security. This businessman, who has attended Chinese Communist Party political conferences, has also attended organised Conservative Party fundraising dinners and other events involving former Conservative Prime Ministers. Although we have raised this issue here before, after police stations were reportedly uncovered in Hendon, Glasgow and Croydon, we have received no update. Meanwhile, operations in New York and the Netherlands have taken action against Chinese police operations, and the Canadian and German Governments have expressed concern about operations in their countries.

Here, we have to contend with the additional dimension that one individual who has been linked to an operation here has links with the Conservative Party and has met Ministers. We know that the director-general of MI5 has warned that Chinese authorities are attempting to exert influence over our political system. Can the Minister tell us the extent of the contact this individual has had with Ministers? What action are the Government taking to look into this role within the Conservative Party and the involvement he has had with the Government? Have any other individuals connected with these operations been identified, and are their similar concerns about them seeking to influence British politics?

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Home Office (Lord Sharpe of Epsom) (Con)]

My Lords, I share the noble Lord’s concern about this threat to our democracy, but as the Security Minister said in a previous Statement on this matter in November last year, investigations are still ongoing and it would be inappropriate for me to comment any further on operational matters, as to do so could obviously jeopardise future prosecutions.

However, I take this opportunity to reassure the House of the Government’s resolve to protect every community in this country from transnational repression. As regards the internal party aspects of this, it is my understanding—and if I am wrong, I will obviously come back to correct myself—that this individual was prominent in a particular Chinese organisation within the Cities of London and Westminster. Beyond that, I do not think he had any involvement or contact with Ministers, and, as all noble Lords around the House know, prominent politicians are featured in photographs with very many people, most of whom they will not know.

Short-term Holding Facility (Amendment) Rules 2022

Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede Excerpts

Tuesday 18th April 2023 Lords Chamber

Quite rightly, the sector has raised further questions on matters that have occurred since January. We on these Benches very much support—I was going to say “are pleased about”, but in the context that is wrong—the Motion.

[Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede (Lab)]

My Lords, I too thank my noble friend for bringing this regret Motion. She set out the reasons for doing so in her characteristically thorough way, and I will try not to repeat her points—but she has been so thorough. Nevertheless, I will set out the case as quickly as I can.

This SI creates a new category of STHF called the “residential holding room”. It appears that this has been created specifically for Manston detention centre, for which, as a non-residential STHF, the previous time limit was 24 hours. This SI changes the time limit to 96 hours, or four days. Additionally, the Secretary of State can extend this. Despite this being close to the five-day limit for residential STHFs, there are significant differences in the minimum conditions, which it is worth setting out. There is no requirement to allow migrants to have access to the internet or to send and receive correspondence, and there is no requirement to fund migrants to correspond with legal advisers, the court system or the UN Refugee Council. It is also unclear whether face-to-face visits are provided for, or whether detainees have the right to meet their legal advisers. There is also no requirement to have separate sleeping quarters for men and women—this was mentioned—or for minors to be housed in separate sleeping quarters, away from unrelated detainees. There are also reduced requirements for health-risk reporting by health staff.

The Government have defended the new rules, stating that the new category of STHF is needed because Manston is a “unique” facility that requires “bespoke” time limits and arrangements. Can the Minister confirm that it is indeed unique, in that there are no plans to extend RHRs to other sites in the future? Both my noble friend Lady Lister and the noble Baroness, Lady Hamwee, raised this question, and I look forward to the Minister’s confirmation that this will not be extended.

We heard that stays in Manston have been confirmed to be much longer than the 24-hour limit—up to a month, according to the Home Office. I understand that there are exceptional circumstances and that the Government are in a difficult situation in many ways. I have a couple of questions for the Minister. Will some of the detainees at Manston who are being accommodated there for up to a month be entitled to phone calls, internet and gender-separated sleeping quarters, as they are in other facilities in which they are allowed to stay for only five days?

Also, given the reports of dozens of cases of diphtheria in Manston last year, and warnings from health officials that cases were spreading within migrant facilities, do the Government believe that the new requirements for health reporting in Manston will be enough to protect detainees’ health? The noble Lord, Lord Roberts, raised this question at Oral Questions today, and clearly there is concern about this matter. I note that the noble Baroness, Lady Bennett, compared the rhetoric of the noble Lord, Lord Ahmad, in another Oral Question today, about the ideals of the Council of Europe and the ECHR—and here we are, talking about the practicalities of dealing with a difficult situation.

The noble Baroness, Lady Hamwee, mentioned Eric, Lord Avebury, whom I am proud to claim as a noble kinsman. I remember many years in this House when he unremittingly raised the concerns of refugees—he may well be looking down on us in this debate now.

The right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Leeds raised an interesting idea, pointing out that quite soon we will deal with the Illegal Migration Bill, which may be an opportunity for this House, or perhaps the opposition parties, to investigate this SI and similar ones and to give them more thorough scrutiny. I was interested in that suggestion, and I will consider whether my party wants to take that further.

The questions have been set out thoroughly by my noble friend and other noble Lords, and I look forward to the Minister’s response.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Home Office (Lord Murray of Blidworth) (Con)]

I thank all noble Lords for their contributions, and particularly the noble Baroness, Lady Lister, for bringing this debate before the House. Clearly, these are important rules, and it is important that they get an airing and that the views of the Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee are considered in this forum. The debate obviously follows concerns about the new rules expressed in that report by the Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee, and I will endeavour to answer them in the course of my speech and to address the questions of the previous contributors.

I will first put these new rules into context. Since 2018 we have, sadly, seen an enormous increase in the numbers of people choosing to put their lives into the hands of people smugglers and enter the UK unlawfully, after crossing the channel in small boats. We will all be aware that last year some 45,755 people crossed the channel, seeking to enter the country illegally. That figure was 60% higher than in 2021. We know that the estimates for this year range between 65,000 and 85,000. We also know that 51% of those 45,755 who arrived last year arrived in August, September and October, with 8,631 in August alone. The Manston facility in Kent was opened specifically to provide secure processing and security checks for those small-boat arrivals.

Anti-social Behaviour Action Plan

Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede Excerpts

Wednesday 29th March 2023 Lords Chamber

[Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede (Lab)]

My Lords, I thank the Government for their Statement in the other place. Anti-social behaviour can inflict real misery on people and communities across the country. Although it is too often dismissed as low-level crime, persistent and corrosive anti-social behaviour can leave people feeling unsafe in their homes and on their streets.

The problem has been getting worse over the past 13 years. Last year, the police recorded 3,000 incidents of anti-social behaviour every single day. Criminal damage in town centres has increased by 30% in the past year, hitting communities and businesses trying to rebuild after Covid. It is not surprising then that YouGov has found that a majority of people do not think that the police take anti-social behaviour seriously enough. However, the police are having to fight more anti-social crime with fewer resources. There are 10,000 fewer neighbourhood police community support officers on the streets now than there were seven years ago. The number of people who do not see police on the streets has doubled in the past 10 years. Now, half the population does not see bobbies on the beat.

Although good work is being done by many officers, repeated cuts to budgets mean that the officers who are left simply cannot keep up with the demand. In polling published earlier this week, YouGov found that, of the one in three people who did not feel safe in their local area at night, two-thirds cited anti-social behaviour as one of the reasons. More than half of people —58%—who felt unsafe said that a lack of police presence contributed to that feeling.

This Statement contains many measures that we welcome, in large part because they are what we have been calling for for a number of years. We welcome the announcements on hotspot policing and faster community payback, both of which we have long called on the Government to implement.

This House also raised nitrous oxide with the Minister very recently, so I am sure that the ban will be welcomed by many Members. Nitrous oxide presents an increased risk to the health of young people and creates a litter nuisance, so we welcome this ban.

However, there is much more that is not mentioned but should be if the Government want to get serious about reducing anti-social behaviour. The Statement does not contain more money for youth service budgets which, according to the YMCA, have been cut by £1 billion since 2010. It does not bring back the drug intervention network set up to save lives and prevent crime associated with illegal drug use that has been eroded. It does not deal with the backlog in community payback schemes, which means millions of hours of community service work have gone uncompleted. It does not improve the declining number of people being charged with criminal damage, nor the decreasing number of community sentences being handed out. Nor does it provide anything for victims of anti-social behaviour—victims who are not covered by the victims’ code or the newly published victims Bill.

Perhaps most importantly, the Statement does not mention neighbourhood policing. Hotspot policing, while welcome and important in targeting areas where it is most needed, is not a substitute for long-term neighbourhood policing embedded in communities. With 1.1 million incidents of anti-social behaviour occurring in the past year, it is clear that hotspot policing alone will not touch the sides of the problem.

Dealing with anti-social behaviour effectively means preventing serious crime later down the line and allowing strong communities to flourish, but this Statement presents solutions that are too small and have come too late. Without serious investment in neighbourhoods and neighbourhood policing, we simply will not see a reduction in the anti-social behaviour that is causing misery across the country.

[Lord German (LD)]

My Lords, we on these Benches agree with restorative justice, but we have to test this plan against what makes good restorative justice. We know that anti-social behaviour is distressing in communities, and that it leads to a loss of respect for communities. I have a sort of déjà vu, because we saw an experiment of this kind during the Blair Government and I think that this plan has missed some of the lessons learned from that. For a restorative justice system and scheme to be successful, we must recognise that it is complex, expensive and difficult, and it must meet the ambitions of a truly restorative justice programme, which has to include things such as catching the culprits, getting the community view, providing the equipment, providing appropriately qualified supervision and, crucially, incentivising success. It must act not just as a deterrent but as an opportunity.

I will examine some of those issues and question the Minister on them. Catching the culprits requires a shift in policing methodology. It means that we have proper community policing. This is at a time when the number of PCSOs has dramatically declined right across the country, and this is just the sort of job they should be doing. The Government have so far failed to meet their target of 20,000 more police officers, and effective community policing means putting officers on our streets who are both visible and trusted. Beyond that, it means providing the necessary equipment and supervision; think of items to remove graffiti, sacks for the separation of litter and appropriate disposal operations, painting equipment, et cetera.

An experience I saw first hand in the 2000s was the danger of getting larger groups of people to do the same sort of work. I well remember seeing a group of people with hi-vis jackets, doing all the things that are in this plan, painting some railings outside a community hall. There was a minibus full of them, with one person supervising at one end and another person, who was supposed to be painting, on his phone at the other end. It was unclear what support they were getting to ensure that they were doing the job. If you are going to bring the people who are making these acts together, you must make sure they are few enough to be managed well and by the right people.

We think that making nitrous oxide illegal just will not work, especially when it goes against the advice of the Government’s own drugs body. It will hand profit and control to serious criminals. There is a danger here of perhaps confusing the mess that people make when taking this gas with its usage. One of the obvious questions I have to ask the Minister is this: we all know about children, adults as well, and party balloons—the child holds the string, lets go and asks dad for another one, please. These balloons are used on a huge number of occasions all around the country, so we can imagine their purchase becoming a source of usage as well. Is this a case of a perverse incentive or is the Minister going to tell us that children’s balloons will be banned?

I will spend a short moment looking at the costs of a proper restorative justice system and at the way these figures are laid out in the action plan. To look at the extra that is being done—the change from yesterday to today, if you like—we have to look at the sections in the plan headed

“How we will go further”.

I looked at the amounts in the plan and the figures include £50 million on immediate justice measures. How many extra PCSOs, police and supervisors will that money provide? Is that £50 million part of the cost of providing the extra police that is already in the plan to reach the target of 20,000? Is this additional or part of an existing plan?

The £60 million for hotspot enforcement is obviously very welcome, but will it reach the whole country, given where these hotspots are at the moment? If one views the map given in the plan, one sees that it requires a huge effort to spread this right across the country. When will the best practice guides on how they will be operating be published?

Not a penny of extra support for rough sleeping is mentioned. This country dealt with this matter during Covid and had to spend quite a bit of money to make it work, but there is not a single penny of extra money mentioned in that area. Some £2.5 million is given to improve our high streets and £1 million to improve local activities across England and Wales. That is for the full rollout of measures in the next year or so, so the amounts of money given do not seem to fulfil the plan’s aspirations. Can the Minister explain how that money provides sufficient resource for a whole-country rollout, when so much of what is being done already applies to small, discrete areas dotted around the country?

I am drawn to the conclusion that this plan gives the impression of not having all the tools necessary to do the job properly. I am afraid that the Government have put the headline and the soundbite before the true benefits that a well-resourced restorative justice plan can provide.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Home Office (Lord Sharpe of Epsom) (Con)]

My Lords, I thank the noble Lords, Lord Ponsonby and Lord German, for their remarks. Since taking up office, the Prime Minister has been clear that the people’s priorities are his priorities. That is why, in delivering on his five promises, he is determined to build stronger communities and create a better future for people across the country.

For too long, anti-social behaviour has blighted our neighbourhoods, making people’s lives a misery and stopping businesses and individuals from flourishing. As the noble Lord, Lord Ponsonby, said, this is not just low-level or petty crime, or kids being kids; it is an attack on the very heart of our communities. It threatens people’s sense of safety and security and, as the noble Lord rightly observed, it is a source of anxiety to many members of the public. That is why we have launched this plan to crack down on anti-social behaviour: to restore people’s confidence that these crimes will be quickly and visibly punished. That means treating it with the urgency it deserves.

I will answer as many of the questions as I can. As ever, if I miss any, I will commit to write, having read Hansard properly. We are on track and on time in recruiting 20,000 additional police officers by March 2023. All the funding within this program is additional to that uplift. Assuming we are successful, that will take us to over 148,000 officers across England and Wales. That will be the highest number of officers on record.

Since 2019, the Government have invested over £3 billion, including additional funding each year, and that rolled into government grants to recruit and support the additional 20,000 officers. We are providing police and crime commissioners with £22 million next year, and £90 million in 2024-25, to support an enhanced response to areas most affected by anti-social behaviour and to roll out immediate justice pilots.

However, as the action plan sets out, local authorities and other local agencies will also have a key role to play. We expect local partners to work together to deliver a multiagency approach to tackling anti-social behaviour and delivering the proposals set out in the action plan. I feel I should remind noble Lords that operational policing is a matter for chief constables, and they set operational priorities in their local areas in association and consultation with the police and crime commissioners. Questions about local policing are obviously better directed to those people who are locally accountable.

This plan is backed by over £160 million of funding. Up to £60 million will fund increased police and other uniformed presence to clamp down on this behaviour, including targeting the hotspots, as referred to by the noble Lord, Lord German. Although he did not ask me, I reassure him that this will not impinge on any of the spending that currently goes into the pilot areas for things such as violence reduction units and GRIPs. This method of policing has been proven to work in other areas, and we expect success from the hotspot areas that we will pilot. The intention is for it to go to 10 police force areas.

I move on to the subject of immediate justice. We are planning on investing £50 million to support the provision of immediate justice by issuing out-of-court disposals with conditions to swiftly repair any damage. The aim will be for them to start within 48 hours of the offence. This will start in 10 initial trail-blazer police force areas and be rolled out nationally in 2024.

I heard what the noble Lord, Lord German, had to say on the subject of making this efficient. The Government are aware of all of his concerns. There is no denying that the delivery of this program will be complex, but it is definitely worth doing. It is aimed at diverting offenders away from the criminal justice system and will make them undertake practical, reparative activity to make good the loss or damage sustained by victims. It will be rolled out to all police force areas in 2024-25. The focus will be on reparative activity, but that may be undertaken alongside rehabilitative and restorative services that foster connection with the local community, and educational interventions. It will apply primarily to adults and young people in receipt of conditional cautions for ASB-related offences under the out-of-court disposal framework. I am quite sure that all noble Lords will agree that keeping people out of the criminal justice system as far as possible is a desirable outcome.

The noble Lord, Lord German, asked about banning nitrous oxide and pointed out that, in its recent report, the ACMD did not recommend that we criminalise this. That is true, but we take the broader context into account. There are health concerns with young people using nitrous oxide. As I said at the Dispatch Box a couple of weeks ago, it was an offence under the Psychoactive Substances Act to supply knowing that it would be used for these purposes. This gives the police the opportunity to confiscate or take possession of the drugs. I do not think that there is a particular intention to criminalise the lots of young people who use it. I reassure the noble Lord that his balloons will not be banned—there will be exceptions for legitimate users. We talked about some of those the other week, and they include medical, dental and apparently whipped cream producers—which amused me at the time but did not seem to amuse the House. Everybody should be reassured that this is the right thing to do. I note that the only other country to have criminalised this so far is Holland. The Dutch did so because they discovered that it was having a fairly significant impact on drug-driving. There are good reasons for doing what the Government have chosen to do, despite the advice—which I might add did not say that we should not do it—of the ACMD.

There was a good deal of discussion about youth services, and I will go into a little more detail on some of the things that we are doing. As part of the national youth guarantee, we will invest over £500 million to provide high-quality local youth services so that, by 2025, every young person will have access to regular clubs and activities, adventures away from home and opportunities to volunteer. That directly reflects young people’s priorities, and includes up to 300 new and refurbished youth spaces delivered through the Youth Investment Fund. We are also giving councils the resources they need to deliver important local services, with an additional £3.7 billion, which will not be ring-fenced, made available for things such as youth services. I could say more on this subject, and I am sure that I will be asked more on it.

Finally, the noble Lord, Lord German, asked me about the fact that he could not find any funding dedicated to rough sleeping and high streets. As I said in my opening remarks, this is a multiagency approach and there are many ways to tackle these problems. The high street in particular, and things such as the empty dwellings Act and the tenant Act, do not really require vast amounts of investment; they just require some new thinking, and that is what the Government are doing.

[Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede (Lab)]

Before the noble Lord sits down, I have a question. When he talked about out-of-court disposals, which we approve of in principle, he used three words: reparative, rehabilitative and restorative. Traditionally, those three things are managed by probation, YOTs, charities or NGOs. On the reparative activity in particular, which, from what the Minister said, is hoped to be done within 48 hours, who will manage that part of the process? It is different from what that group of agencies does at the moment.

[Lord Sharpe of Epsom (Con)]

The noble Lord asks a very good question. I note that none of those three words is easy to pronounce, particularly not at the Dispatch Box. As I said in my answer about the high streets and so on, it is a multiagency approach. A number of different agencies will be involved on a case-by-case basis. It depends on the circumstances of the case. It may be that there are opportunities for drug referrals or maybe other things. I cannot be more specific at this point, but I am sure I will be able to update him in due course on the more precise details.

Black and Minority-ethnic Children: Police Strip-searches

Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede Excerpts

Monday 27th March 2023 Lords Chamber

[Lord Sharpe of Epsom (Con)]

I thank my noble friend for that. I am extremely happy to pay tribute to Dame Rachel de Souza for her report, which strikes me as very comprehensive—although I confess to having read only part of it so far. I agree with some of her conclusions, as I have just said, and I think that the one about schools is an entirely appropriate conclusion to have reached. In my opinion, strip-searches should be conducted only in very safe and secure places.

[Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede (Lab)]

My Lords, one of the report’s conclusions was that there were widely differing practices in stop and search and strip-searches across the country. Does the Minister believe that there are good examples of stop and search and strip-search, and what can the Government use from those examples? Is it not right that particular communities—I am talking about young black men—have very little trust in the police service, and that it does not take much for things to kick off and for the police to use further interventions which are wholly undesirable as a result of the original police intervention?

[Lord Sharpe of Epsom (Con)]

I certainly agree with the noble Lord’s last point; that is a significant issue for the police and for us all. It relates to so many other issues that we deal with on a daily basis regarding the police, including things that the noble Baroness, Lady Jones, has brought up in previous debates, such as recruitment and so on. Regarding strip-search, I argue that, where the rules are followed, which are pretty clear and rigorous, it could be appropriate under certain circumstances. However, there needs to be an appropriate adult present, and there are complications around that, including making sure that there are enough of them. The other rules and safeguards that are already in place need to be followed.