Brexit

Lord Puttnam Excerpts

Saturday 19th October 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Puttnam (Lab)]

My Lords, for the sake of brevity, I will restrict myself to just two of the recurring fantasies that we are currently forced to listen to. The first is that the country will somehow find itself united under a Government led by Boris Johnson. As even his friends concede, Mr Johnson is an almost uniquely divisive and untrusted figure. While I would argue that remainers tend to be less viscerally unforgiving than their opponents, the idea that the division that has riven this country for over three years is going to be magically healed is surely the one nonsense we can all agree upon—and certainly will when the full impact of unrestrained market forces begins to devastate the lives of those least able to withstand it. Should the Prime Minister succeed this evening, the only winners will be not the people of this country, but Mr Putin, Mr Trump, Mr Bolsonaro and others whose route to success is based on the flagrant exploitation of ignorance and fear. I was taught by my parents that we can be most easily judged by the friends we make.

The second deliberate falsehood that has been peddled is that a confirmatory referendum will inevitably lead to a likely third, fourth or even fifth one. Clearly, this is put about by people who struggle with the English language. Check out the word “confirmatory” in the dictionary, and you will find that it means,

“serving to make an arrangement or agreement definite or valid”.

It is bolstered by words such as “verifying”, “substantiating”, “validating” and “closure”.

I live in the Republic of Ireland, a country that has recovered from a painful birth. Noble Lords will remember that the Irish rejected the Lisbon treaty in 2009 but, having secured an enhanced role for small states, then voted to agree the ratification by an overwhelming majority of 67%. Were they right the first time or the second time? The most recent poll, in May 2018, indicated that over 90% of Irish citizens now wish to remain in the EU, and when it comes to people too young to have voted in those earlier referenda, the figure is closer to 99%. That is what I would describe as closure. I have never heard it suggested that having a second and better-informed view can be a bad thing. In fact, it could reasonably be said to be the primary function of your Lordships’ House.

Find me one adult in this country who on 23 June 2016 knew what they were voting for, knew they were voting for the deal being laid before Parliament today. It is quite possible that it will be embraced as the very least worst option. If so, why are those proposing it so afraid of referring it to the people? Are they concerned that misdirected lightning will fail to strike twice? You are damned right they are.

I would simply make one additional point. Should the Prime Minister impose his deal on the country, the momentum could easily encourage him towards a further victory at a general election. In my view, a Boris Johnson Government would be a disaster not just for this country but for every single Member of this House. In that respect, I am perfectly happy to be judged by history. That being the case, I ask any waverers in my own party who later today might be thinking of voting with the Government, and against a confirmatory referendum, to recall a speech made by my noble friend Lord Kinnock in Bridgend on 7 June 1983. It was a speech which led me and many other disillusioned Labour supporters to rejoin the party. To paraphrase my noble friend, if Boris Johnson wins this evening then, under his Government, I warn you not to be vulnerable. I warn you not to be young, not to fall ill and not to grow old. Most of all, I warn you not in any way to need the help of the state, as it is very likely not to be forthcoming.

EU Withdrawal

Lord Puttnam Excerpts

Wednesday 13th February 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Puttnam (Lab)]

My Lords, like the noble Lord, Lord Cope of Berkeley, this is the very first time I have inflicted my views on your Lordships’ House on what is without doubt the gravest matter I have faced in the 20 years I have been here and probably in my lifetime. I have a number of reasons for not having previously spoken on the subject. In the first place, I was not sure there was much I could offer that was new and illuminating. Secondly, I continued to hope that the Government, and indeed the leadership of my own party, would do a better job of steering clear of the self-destructive path that both, in their different ways, seem to be taking.

I have always shared the common view that Britain was a pragmatic, sensible country with an instinctive aversion to extremism, be it of the right or the left. It is now clear that I was wrong on just about all counts. This has led me to conclude that I do in fact have one or two fresh observations to offer. For once, time allows me to put those thoughts into context. On this occasion, context is particularly important.

Like one or two other Members of your Lordships’ House I am a mongrel. My mother’s family were immigrants from Russia and my father’s family were French—albeit they arrived as invaders on these shores 953 years ago. Our family home is in west Cork in the Republic of Ireland, where, for 30 years, I have enjoyed watching the relationship between my country of birth and my country of adoption grow ever closer. Sadly it is now clear that relationship is dangerously deteriorating.

For the past 50 years I have also run my own business, working in and indeed with the United States, during which I have made literally hundreds of trade deals. Most recently I spent four years as the UK’s trade and cultural envoy in south-east Asia, all of which allows me the conceit of believing that I know a fair bit more about the effects of Brexit on Ireland and the business of negotiating, most especially in the United States, than the current Minister for International Trade, Dr Liam Fox. From time to time I hear him and others speaking rather airily of a special relationship—that post Brexit we will be free to make the mother of all trade deals with the US. This belief is either a cruel fantasy or a deliberate falsification of what the best of his department know to be the truth.

“The chief business of the American people is business”.


That is not just a speech line dreamed up in 1925 by Calvin Coolidge; there is also a deep truth attached to it. No matter how close you may personally feel to an American business counterpart, when you sit across the negotiating table, all notions of a special relationship go out of the window and new rules apply. My friend the noble Lord, Lord Saatchi, knows well of what I speak.

The first of those rules is that only a fool allows the other side to know where their red lines are drawn. The art of the deal is discerning where the other side’s red lines are in order to begin to assemble your own. Having done so, the second rule is keeping them to yourself. We somehow managed to break both rules within months of the referendum. We have been trying to haul ourselves back from that absurd position ever since. I used to believe—no, I used to assume—that we had some of the finest minds in the world working in our Foreign Office, a number of whom have presumably been seconded to the task of attempting to fulfil our new trade fantasies.

As he takes note, I would like to throw a few questions at the Minister. I ask him to respect the House by offering a thoughtful response to them. As Dr Fox dreams of improving on the EU’s trade arrangements with the US, is he aware that around 40 million Americans claim Irish roots and in most cases actually describe themselves as Irish-Americans? That is 12.9% of the total population and close to 20% of the voters in the crucial north-western swing states of Pennsylvania, Vermont, New Hampshire, Maine, Massachusetts and Connecticut. Is he also aware that no fewer than 63 US Congressmen and Congresswomen are members of the Friends of Ireland caucus, most of whom have direct Irish heritage? Did he know that US Senators Cantwell, Casey, Cassidy, Collins, Cruz, Durbin, Enzi, Kaine, Kennedy, Leahy, McConnell, Murkowski, Murphy, Murray, Sullivan and Toomey all have direct Irish heritage—that is, nine Republicans and seven Democrats? I will leave it to Dr Fox and those who advise him to work out the electoral consequences of a situation in which this country was rightly held responsible for severe disruption and maybe even disaster to the Irish economy on both sides of the border.

With the 2020 US elections just 20 months away, how would the Minister fancy the chances of a Senator or a Member of the House of Representatives who was felt to have in any way supported Britain in heaping misery on the Irish economy? As he prepares his response, I am sure that he feels that he can safely take refuge in an assurance that the Government have no intention of damaging the Republic of Ireland or its economy. But does he seriously believe that right now that perception holds good in Dublin, in Brussels or, crucially, in Washington?

I can confidently make him one promise. Should we crash out or endanger the Good Friday agreement, either accidently or through sheer ineptitude, then all the blame will lie with us. We will not be forgiven—not in Ireland, not in Europe and, politically at least, not in the United States. There will be no point in sending Boris Johnson off to attend a St Patrick’s Day parade wearing a green leprechaun hat, because Dr Fox is likely to find what he believed to be a friendly Congressional door slammed firmly in his face.

That is the purely political reality. But on any number of other fronts we are already discovering powerful lobbies in the US seeking preferential treatment in areas such as food safety standards, demands that are totally incompatible with our own established norms. Is Dr Fox, a medical doctor, going to suggest for one moment that we downgrade our own health and safety standards to close a trade deal? It is unthinkable.

Our Minister for International Trade has developed a habit of trying to retrofit his ideological preferences to imaginary world scenarios. However, despite small successes with Switzerland and Singapore, real life will surely close in, and he will be found to be what the Americans refer to as a blowhard.

John Harris, the Guardian columnist, wrote yesterday of his recent encounters with real life on both sides of the Irish border:

“Just about everyone I met knew perfectly well that Theresa May’s travails over the so-called backstop are the product of politicians and voters elsewhere forgetting about the island of Ireland, only to be reminded that for the people who live there, Brexit represents a profound set of dangers. No one was that surprised about this amnesia, but many were very angry about it”.


I am one of them. I am very angry. I am angry because most of the public discourse regarding the backstop, particularly from the ERG, has revealed a staggering level of either pig ignorance or malicious disregard, and I am not quite sure which is worse. As Harris wrote, Brexit is a,

“Pandora’s box, brimming with unforeseen consequences”.


Ever the optimist, my final question to the Minister is this. What specific plans do his Government have for healing the wound we have managed to inflict on our closest geographical and cultural neighbour, once all this present madness is behind us? It would be very wrong for him to either ignore this point or resort to any form of bland assurance, because, either knowingly or unthinkingly, enormous damage has already been done, and we will have to work very hard and with great imagination to recover the relationship that was so brilliantly forged by Her Majesty the Queen less than eight years ago, in May 2011. But even then, we will still be left with the question that many of us are forced to ask: was all this pain necessary? Was it really worth it? I profoundly believe it to be in the national interest to support the Motion of my noble friend.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Callanan]

My Lords, I am grateful to all noble Lords who have spoken today, and for the many insightful and considered contributions. Indeed, I am particularly grateful to those noble Lords who sought to rise to the challenge of making points that the House had not previously considered. Sadly, many failed in that task, probably including myself, but I particularly enjoyed the contribution of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Hope, and his holding pattern analogy, which was particularly novel and amusing, although I do not agree with it. I also enjoyed my noble friend Lady Meyer’s spirited speech, despite many interventions. She made some excellent new points about the realities of some of the failings of the EU, which, of course, we do not often get to hear in this House.

During the debate, many noble Lords, including the noble Lord, Lord Taverne, and the noble Baroness, Lady Hayter, drew attention to the Prime Minister’s letter to the leader of the Opposition. In particular, a number of noble Lords spoke about the Government’s position on the customs union. As my noble friend Lord Howell pointed out in his speech, the political declaration that we have debated at length in this House explicitly provides for the benefits of a customs union. However, it also recognises the development of the UK’s independent trade policy beyond our economic partnership with the EU. Let me be clear: we are not considering staying in the customs union. We want to play a full and active role on trade policy on the global stage, working closely with friends new and old. From trade remedies to trade promotion and bilateral to multilateral negotiations, the UK will be able to tailor its trade policy to the strengths and requirements of the UK economy and in support of our industrial strategy.

While I am on the subject of trade, I pay tribute to the excellent speech of the noble Baroness, Lady Bull, on the importance of trade in services. While I again did not agree with every point she made, I can tell her that the UK services sector is a global success story. Our internationally competitive sector plays host to world-leading firms, as well as thriving small and medium-sized businesses. The political declaration includes a commitment to conclude an ambitious arrangement for services and investment that goes well beyond WTO commitments, alongside new arrangements on financial services. But leaving the EU will give the UK regulatory flexibility where it matters most for its service-based economy and where the potential trading opportunities outside the EU are the largest. Globally, services trade is growing rapidly and UK services trade with non-EU countries grew by 73% between 2007 and 2017.

My noble friend Lord Cope asked me quite a technical question about whether the UK’s customs declaration process is on track. We will have a functioning customs system on exit. HMRC continues to progress dual running of the customs declaration system and CHIEF, the current customs declaration system. It can process sufficient numbers of customs declarations anticipated in a no-deal scenario. This capability will be deployed alongside the CDS, ensuring we will have a functioning customs system on exit.

The noble Lord, Lord Puttnam, asked whether I was aware of the number of Americans professing to have Irish roots. The answer is yes, I am, because many of them are indeed my relatives. I also have Irish roots. Indeed, I have discussed Brexit with many in the Irish American community. He might find that not all opinion is uniform on that matter.

[Lord Puttnam]

I do not think it is people claiming Irish roots; they are adhering to Irish roots. The Minister might be well advised to read today’s Washington Post, which is very informative on this subject. He will find it more than interesting.

[Lord Callanan]

Indeed I will. I have been preparing for today’s debate and sitting in the Chamber, but I will have a look when I get the opportunity. I can also assure the noble Lord, as he suggested I would, that we have no intention of inflicting any damage on the Irish economy.

Many noble Lords, such as my noble friend Lady Altmann and others, have again asked about Article 50 and suggested that we could simply extend or revoke it. I think she is profoundly wrong on this matter. The Government’s policy has not changed. We will not revoke our notice to withdraw from the European Union under Article 50. We stand by the commitment we made to the British people to uphold the result of the 2016 referendum. To revoke our Article 50 notice would be to dishonour that commitment and to reject an instruction clearly given to us by the British people. On this point I agree with my noble friend Lord Cavendish.

I also do not believe that there is anything like a majority in the House of Commons for such a course of action. Indeed, we might soon find out. I note that there is an amendment tabled by the SNP that, if selected, would put that notion to the test in the other place. Perhaps that would be a useful reality check for those who cling to the belief that they can wish away the referendum as if it had never happened.

I also remind noble Lords, including the noble and learned Lord, Lord Hope, and the noble Lords, Lord Kerr and Lord Hannay, those who would like to extend Article 50, that as they know very well, that is not a unilateral option. An extension would require the consent of all 27 member states, a point well made by the noble Baroness, Lady Deech. As the Prime Minister correctly highlighted in the other place last week, the EU is very unlikely simply to agree to extend Article 50 without a plan for how we are going to approve a deal. To this extent I agree with the noble and learned Lord, Lord Hope. The best way forward, as I have said many times, is to leave in an orderly way with a good deal.

My noble friend Lord Balfe asked me to speculate on potential ratification timetables in the European Parliament. I hope we will be able to secure a satisfactory deal in plenty of time to allow the EP and this Parliament to approve it. I also gently say that we are not proposing to leave the European family—we are proposing to leave the European Union, which is not the same thing.

Unsurprisingly, many noble Lords returned to their favourite subject of a second people’s vote. I include in that number the noble Lords, Lord Judd, Lord Wilson, Lord Davies, Lord Taverne, Lord Hannay and the noble Baroness, Lady Wheatcroft. I am sure it will come as no surprise to any of them to hear me say that the Government stand by their policy to respect the result of the 2016 referendum. This Government made a commitment to the British people that we would respect the result of that referendum; I agree with the points made on that commitment by my noble friends Lord Cormack and Lord Cope. I note that this was a promise made by the Opposition too, and while obviously I have many differences with Jeremy Corbyn, on this matter I pay tribute to him, because he at least, unlike many in his party, seems to want to stick by that pledge made in their last election manifesto.

The only guarantees that another referendum would bring are of more mistrust and uncertainty. I notice that the supporters of a second or indeed, according to the noble Lord, Lord Cope, a third people’s vote, have yet again failed to offer this as an option in the House of Commons votes tomorrow, because they know, as do the rest of us, that there is no majority in another place for a second or, indeed, third vote.

The noble Baroness, Lady Smith, the noble Lord, Lord Newby, the noble and learned Lord, Lord Hope, and in his inimitable style—although indirectly and through the noble Baroness, Lady Smith—the noble Lord, Lord Foulkes, all asked about the legislation to be delivered in advance of exit day. With regard to primary legislation, the Sanctions and Anti-Money Laundering Act 2018, the Nuclear Safeguards Act 2018, the Haulage Permits and Trailer Registration Act 2018 and the Taxation (Cross-border Trade) Act 2018 have all now received Royal Assent. Six other exit-related Bills are currently in Parliament. The Trade Bill, the Financial Services (Implementation of Legislation) Bill, the Agriculture Bill, the Fisheries Bill, the Healthcare (International Arrangements) Bill and the Immigration and Social Security Co-ordination (EU Withdrawal) Bill will be prioritised appropriately to ensure that the measures necessary for a functioning statute book on exit day are in place before the UK leaves the EU.

With regard to secondary legislation, the majority of statutory instruments are needed in either a deal or a no-deal scenario, and they will be deferred to the end of the implementation period if they are not needed on 29 March. This is part of our long-term planning—

European Union (Withdrawal) Bill

Lord Puttnam Excerpts

Report: 4th sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Monday 30th April 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Puttnam (Lab)]

My Lords, having not pressed my amendment on a very similar subject in Committee, I would like to speak briefly in making one point. The word “overwhelming” has tortured this House over the past many months—the notion that somehow or other the 52:48 majority was overwhelming. According to the Oxford English Dictionary, overwhelming equates to massive; it is not massive—it is narrow and marginal. What is overwhelming is the overwhelming support for remain from young people generally in this country, amounting to around 70% of all young people and 80% in the case of young people with graduate degrees.

The point that I would like to make to the Minister—and I hope very much that he might agree with this—is that those 80% of young people are the ones we will absolutely rely on to drive this country post Brexit to any form of economic success. We are going to absolutely rely on them, so do not diminish their feelings, emotions and belief in Europe by pretending that in any way, shape or form that the narrow victory in the referendum represents the views or wishes of the overwhelming majority of young people in this country.

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath (Lab)]

My Lords, the noble Earl has done a great service in bringing this amendment back after a very good debate in Committee. Although much of the focus tonight has been on Erasmus, his amendment actually goes wider. However young people voted in the referendum, and whatever the outcome of the Brexit negotiations, the Government have said that post Brexit they want a closer partnership with the EU. Given that, there is a mutual interest in ensuring that young people enhance the opportunities that they have to work, enjoy, travel and get experience between ourselves and countries of the EU. The Erasmus programme is, of course, vitally important in that regard. The noble Lord, Lord Bilimoria, can speak with great experience, and he will know that since its start 600,000 young people, mainly, from the UK have taken advantage of it.

The Minister was sympathetic in Committee; he made it clear that the Government would expect that opportunities that arise for mainly young people will continue in future. But I want to bring him back to the point that the noble Earl raised, which was that he said that the Government would need to see what the successor programme was to Erasmus before committing on whether to support it or not. Tonight’s debate is really about encouraging the Minister to say that, of course, first of all, we should be talking to the EU about the successor programme. Secondly, whatever the technical details, it would be inconceivable that this country, one way or another, would not wish fully to embrace the successor to the Erasmus programme. I very much hope that the Minister will be able to signify that because he took a constructive approach in Committee, he will go just that little bit further and give us that kind of commitment.

European Union (Withdrawal) Bill

Lord Puttnam Excerpts

Report: 1st sitting: House of Lords
Wednesday 18th April 2018 Lords Chamber

We therefore believe that this amendment is important to fill the governance gap which will occur when we no longer have to abide by EU policies or report on progress to EU institutions. It also protects our environment against inadvertent errors or incomplete transpositions, which, sadly but inevitably, will occur. I therefore hope that the Minister will take these comments seriously and will feel able to give a positive response, and if not, as the noble Lord, Lord Deben, said, that she will come back at Third Reading with an alternative proposition to the very well thought out amendment we have put forward this evening.

[Lord Puttnam (Lab)]

My Lords, I support the amendment spoken to by the noble Lord, Lord Deben, but I will comment briefly from a slightly different angle. During the 1980s, I spent seven very happy years as president of the Council for the Protection of Rural England—a title which I suggest would thrill even the most ardent Brexiter. It was a marvellous organisation. Founded in 1926, it was the pioneer of environmental protection—both urban and rural—here in the UK, and many of its policies were copied by other European nations. Since our accession to the European Union, they have in fact been enhanced within the EU. It would be quite extraordinary if there were any possibility that we would reverse out of those environmental benefits that have accrued over the years—pioneered, I repeat, by a British organisation, the CPRE. Any legislation that would go some way towards securing, developing and building on what we have would be entirely welcome, but anything that would endanger that I would oppose vehemently.

[Baroness Bakewell of Hardington Mandeville (LD)]

My Lords, I will speak briefly to this amendment, to which I have added my name. There is little I can add to what the noble Lord, Lord Deben, and the noble Baroness, Lady Jones, said so eloquently. The current Clause 4 is unsuitable, so we have submitted a proposed new Clause 4, which covers a much broader area than the environmental concerns. However, because so much environmental legislation stems from the EU, it is particularly important for the Government’s environmental commitments that we carry these forward.

The amendment aims to preserve more comprehensively than the existing Clause 4 rights, powers, liabilities, obligations, restrictions, remedies and procedures, all derived from EU law and incorporated into domestic law via the ECA. Where such rights are incorrectly or incompletely transferred it imposes a duty to remedy this, and we feel that it is important that the Government take this duty on board. There will be transition gaps and incomplete transfers. Examples of transition gaps which put environmental protection at risk include, as the noble Baroness, Lady Jones, said, the requirement to review and report on adequacy and implementation of laws such as the air quality directive and the habitats directive. As the noble Lord, Lord Deben, said, if we are not doing this in the right way, will the Minister please tell us which way we should be doing it? I fully support this amendment and I will support the amendment that comes forward on Monday.

UK Withdrawal from the EU and Potential Withdrawal from the Single Market

Lord Puttnam Excerpts

Thursday 26th January 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord Puttnam (Lab)]

My Lords, time is very short, so in thanking my noble friend for enabling this debate, and having spoken last week on the right to remain, at col. 346, I will follow the example of the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth, and cut straight to the Brexit chase.

I have always believed that referenda are bad politics. I will go further: I believe their use to be an abrogation of political leadership, made more dangerous by the inexplicable decision to opt for fixed-term Parliaments. On a number of occasions in your Lordships’ House, I have stated my belief that we live in a far more fragile democracy than we appear to appreciate, one in which the introduction of an ill-informed and prejudiced referendum, an increasing threat of deselection, and the catastrophic loss of trust in public and private institutions have all served to undermine the principles of strong representative democracy.

Few politicians remain brave. In the end, more often than not, calculation trumps principle. By way of example, Stanley Baldwin told the House of Commons in 1933 that he had been unable to pursue a sensible policy of rearmament because of the strong pacifist sentiment in the country. Two years later, in 1935, 11 million people went so far as to sign the Peace Ballot, pledging support for the reduction of armaments. Imagine if instead of a petition there had been a referendum and 51% of the electorate had voted against rearmament. They would have been avidly supported by the Daily Mail, as well as very many members of my own party. Would noble Lords have behaved undemocratically if we had sought to reverse that expression of public will based on what this House sincerely believed to be growing and ever-more compelling evidence of Hitler’s intentions?

Should Winston Churchill have been deselected by his local party in Epping when early in 1938 he gave possibly his bravest speech to a largely hostile House of Commons, during which he said:

“I do not grudge our loyal, brave people … but they should know the truth … they should know that we have sustained a defeat without a war … they should know that we have passed an awful milestone in our history, when the whole equilibrium of Europe has been deranged … And do not suppose that this is the end … This is only the first sip, the first foretaste of a bitter cup”?—[Official Report, Commons, 5/10/1938; col. 3723.]


I believe we have once again sustained a self-inflicted defeat without a war. I am convinced that we have yet to taste the first sip of what could follow.

Surely I cannot be alone in finding an anomaly in the fact that according to the Daily Telegraph’s post-referendum analysis, the vote split along age, class and educational lines, with the future economic security of the elderly and most vulnerable now largely dependent on those whose clear wish was to remain in and share their future with Europe. I cannot convince myself that this conforms to any kind of sustainable outcome.

I have never been able to explain to my children why my name was in the “Content” column when the vote was taken in this House on the second Iraq War, in the absence of any well-thought-through post-conflict plan. I sincerely believed that the then Government had a fuller understanding of what we were blundering into. I now know myself to have been duped, foolish and wrong. I will not make that same mistake twice.

Finally, it is my sincere belief that we are engaged upon a hopelessly ill-thought-through misadventure. Irrespective of what may emerge as the attitudes or tactics of my own party, I will at every opportunity speak and vote against what I consider to be the most self-destructive policy ever to have been pursued in this country in my lifetime. The torrent of disinformation directed against Europe for 20 years and more by Murdoch, Dacre and others has done its worst, which is why the last word must be reserved for the thoughtful consideration of the whole of this Parliament.

HG Wells memorably described civilisation as,

“a race between education and catastrophe”.

I can hope only that before it is too late we in Parliament might find the courage and the perception of Winston Churchill to finally bring this nation and its leaders to their senses—on this issue and many others.