Brexit: Food Prices
Lord Redesdale Excerpts(6 years, 6 months ago)
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Lord Redesdale (LD)
My Lords, I declare an interest as the owner of two hill farms: I understand the economics of hill farming. The Minister said that he was confident in British agriculture but, without subsidies, hill farming, which is already almost uneconomic, will become disastrous. Can the Minister say whether the subsidies, including the environmental subsidies through entry-level and high-level stewardships, will be confirmed to the end of this Parliament? Sorry—I had better say “by 2022”.
Lord Gardiner of Kimble
My Lords, the Secretary of State and the Minister have made very clear that the continuing support—I think that the word is “support” rather than “subsidies” for agriculture—will continue until the end of this Parliament in 2022. It is important that we look to new arrangements countenancing public benefits, which I believe agriculture and management of the land undoubtedly do. Obviously we are considering agri-environmental schemes, which I think will be of considerable benefit to agriculture, farmers and the environment.
Breeding: Dogs and Cats
Lord Redesdale Excerpts(6 years, 8 months ago)
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Lord Gardiner of Kimble
My Lords, it is important that we respect our animals as they are in their native state. It is important that we address this point; it is not reasonable, and in fact it is self-indulgent, to breed animals with these genetic defects. So we want to deal with it, and it is important that we do so. This crosses a number of breeds whose conditions we need to improve. This is why we are working in particular on things such as pet advertising—we want to raise standards on the online side of these things. We are working on this because we recognise how important it is for the welfare and health of these animals.
Lord Redesdale (LD)
My Lords, the Minister has mentioned online sales of animals. Will he take the recommendations of the Pet Advertising Advisory Group, which is chaired by the Dogs Trust, to make it obligatory—not just voluntary—for websites to make sure that the picture of the pet that is on sale is of the animal itself? Many pets are advertised with beautiful pictures of healthy animals, but when the prospective owner comes to pick up their pet they find a sickly, badly-bred animal and of course feel sorry for it and therefore pay for it, which increases the trade in this way.
Lord Gardiner of Kimble
My Lords, the noble Lord is absolutely right; the Pet Advertising Advisory Group is driving up standards, and we support that. However, this takes us back to one of our problems, which is that of demand from the public who want to buy a puppy. One of the most important things they should think about is whether they can go to a rehoming centre to buy a dog or cat. If they want to buy a pedigree puppy or kitten, they should look to responsible breeders and in particular see the animals in the environment of the mother. It will become illegal to buy a puppy under eight weeks old, so I hope that we will make some progress on this.
Dog Licensing
Lord Redesdale Excerpts(9 years, 5 months ago)
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Lord De Mauley
The noble Lord raises an important point. This is why we have legislated this year to tighten up on the dangerous dogs legislation. Now is not the moment to go into detail, but he has a very important point and the new legislation goes to the particular problems that have arisen in recent years.
Lord Redesdale (LD)
My Lords, following on from that point, this is a time of year when the number of postal workers attacked by dogs rises quite considerably. We should not underestimate the number of hospital admissions that also take place due to dangerous dogs. Having campaigned on this issue for a number of years, I was encouraged when the Minister said that the Government were looking at further measures to link the owner to the dog through a microchip. Will he say what measures they might well bring forward to reduce the number of dog attacks?
Lord De Mauley
My Lords, we have worked with the Post Office, Royal Mail and the unions on the legislation that went through this year. Largely, they were extremely happy with what we did and are very pleased that microchipping is coming in.
Water Bill
Lord Redesdale Excerpts(10 years, 1 month ago)
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Baroness Northover (LD)
My Lords, in moving government Amendment 61 I shall also speak to the other amendments in this group. I shall address Amendments 61 to 63 first. I am grateful for the support of my noble friends Lord Redesdale and Lady Parminter, who have added their names to these amendments. During scrutiny of the Water Bill we have debated the important question of how to ensure sustainable outcomes in the context of regulation of the sector. As part of that debate, we have returned repeatedly to the need to promote the efficient use of water so that all parties—Ofwat, the water companies and their customers—are encouraged to use water as efficiently as possible.
There is already a duty on undertakers to promote the efficient use of water by their customers, and Ofwat has a role in enforcing this duty. As noble Lords will know, we consider water efficiency to be an important priority. A compelling case for additional clarity on this issue has been put forward by noble Lords in Committee and in subsequent discussions. We therefore propose to make a further alteration to the resilience duty to make it absolutely clear that Ofwat is expected to promote the efficient use of water by water companies. We want to avoid any doubt on that score. This ensures that the resilience duty embraces all relevant action, such as the capture and retention of water by investing in new water storage or by tackling leakage. It will ensure that Ofwat promotes action to ensure that water is managed by the companies as efficiently as possible and encourages them to take action to encourage customers to use water efficiently. All such activity will support the overall objective of reducing pressure on water resources.
I also wish to speak to Amendments 65 to 70. I hope that it will be clear how seriously we take the crucial matter of getting the right balance between social, environmental and economic considerations in the regulation of this sector. We know that noble Lords across the House share this concern. It is with the intention of further strengthening that balance that we are bringing forward these amendments today. They require that when setting strategic priorities and objectives for Ofwat, the Secretary of State and Welsh Ministers must have regard to Ofwat’s duties and must have regard to social and environmental matters as well.
My noble friend Lady Parminter tabled a similar amendment in Committee and, supported by the noble Lord, Lord Whitty, made her case forcefully. I thank both noble Lords for rightly flagging this issue. Briefly, Clause 24 clarifies and strengthens existing guidance- giving powers. It enables the Secretary of State to issue a single consolidated statement setting out social, environmental and economic policy priorities in the round. The purpose of this is to help Ofwat weigh all of the relevant considerations appropriately when making regulatory decisions, and Welsh Ministers will have an equivalent power. We agree that the consolidated guidance must include social and environmental considerations. That is why we made it clear in the drafting of the Bill that social and environmental matters should stay. However, we share the concerns of noble Lords on the issue of the status of that guidance, and for that reason we are bringing forward an amendment to resolve the issue.
I thank noble Lords for their constructive and well informed engagement, and I hope that they will welcome these amendments. I beg to move.
Lord Redesdale (LD)
My Lords, I thank the Government, after some considerable debate about the issue, for the alacrity with which they have taken steps to introduce water efficiency. At the previous stage I raised the issue of sustainability, and I see that the noble Lord, Lord Whitty, has tabled an amendment covering it as part of this group. However, what I am most concerned about is the issue of water efficiency.
The resilience amendment talks about demand management. In the parlance of the water industry, demand management is very much about the reduction of leaks, whereas I believe that water efficiency is much more about the use of water and how it is a partnership between the water companies and water users on how water is to be used. We still have to bring about a massive behaviour change in customer use to make sure that the biggest leak we have in any system is the tap that is not turned off or used inefficiently. That is a movement which we have to take forward.
I hope that these provisions will bring about a degree of behaviour change within Ofwat itself, as happened as a result of the changes made to its core duties in the 2003 Act. I believe that Ofwat is seeking to change the way that it looks at such a scarce resource. With climate change, we are going to have to look at a very different system of determining how much water is available and how we use it. Indeed, in a few minutes Ofwat will be holding a reception just down the road to discuss these issues with stakeholders. I am glad that the Government have brought forward these amendments, which I am sure will help the regulator in its duties.
Baroness Parminter
My Lords, I, too, thank the Government for listening so assiduously to the concerns that I and colleagues around the House raised in Committee. The Government have listened very carefully to those concerns, and I particularly welcome the new amendment which outlines that the resilience duty includes promoting the efficient use of water. This powerful commitment to water efficiency is testament to the tenacity of my noble friend Lord Redesdale. It also delivers the Liberal Democrat party policy agreed five years ago to reform Ofwat’s remit to put water resource efficiency at the heart of water company plans.
I also sincerely thank the Minister and the Bill team for accepting my genuinely strongly felt concerns about the necessity of the Government taking account of social and environmental matters when formulating the strategic guidance with which the regulator has to conform. Their amendment to Clause 24 reflects that and I am extremely grateful.
Water Bill
Lord Redesdale Excerpts(10 years, 3 months ago)
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Lord Redesdale (LD)
My Lords, along with the Minister, I have to declare an interest in that I own one bank of a river: the River Rede in Northumberland. The river, which runs through Redesdale, has a name that deals with some of the pollution problems there: in Northumbrian it means “red river”. That is probably from the iron oxide that has leached into it, but I prefer the definition given in a local history guide which says that it ran red with the blood of Scotsmen after the Redeswire massacre in the 1560s. However, that strays into another Bill that we will come on to in the not too distant future.
As a Back-Bencher I enjoy the fact that you can focus on one issue alone. This Bill is quite light on issues. I will not be focusing on many other parts of the Bill, but I would raise the issue of competition. Many noble Lords have talked about the value of competition in driving down prices and, as the Scottish example has shown, there could be short-term gains through competition. However, we should take on the lessons learnt from the energy sector that the short-term gains might turn into very long-term problems, especially with the issues of extraction.
An area that I particularly welcome in the Bill, though, is the Government pushing forward issues around the capex and opex problem and introducing the new word “totex”, which is quite an ugly expression but certainly may well help to deal with some of the fluctuations brought about by the five-year AMP cycle.
The issue that I want to focus on particularly was flagged up in the White Paper as one that the Government were going to look at under concern, but that dropped out of the draft Bill: the question of whether there should be a duty on Ofwat in sustainability. Having watched the pictures of flooding on the television this morning, and I think that everyone who has ever dealt with a flood knows just how horrendous that situation can be, I cannot believe that we do not face an issue with climate change. We were facing a drought last summer. They said, “If we don’t get a 200% normal rainfall pattern, we will have to have hosepipe bans through the whole of 2013 and 2014”. Luckily enough, we had over 200% of normal rainfall. Perhaps it is only me who thought, “Over 200% of normal rainfall is not a normal situation”. Now, of course, we have gone from drought to a flood. With climate change, drought and flood are two sides of the same coin, and we are going to face that in future.
The Minister and the Government have come forward and said, “We don’t need the word ‘sustainability’ as a duty because we’re looking at resilience”. I believe that there is a massive difference in how people view the terminology between “resilience” and “sustainability”. Sustainability is already written into the Bill—there is a clause on sustainable drainage—but not as a duty for Ofwat. Why do I believe that that is important? Because the regulator sets the terms of the tariff that we pay and therefore what the water companies can use that money for.
Unless the regulator takes looking at sustainability in the long term really seriously, we tend to end up with a much shorter-term decision-making processes. Of course, when we are talking about the long term, we are talking about only 20 years, or perhaps even less in some of the assessments. I plan to be a water customer in 20 years’ time—with my family history, I probably will not be—and it is quite possible that as a customer in 20 years’ time, I will be paying a much higher bill because of the decisions we are making now about the cost of living. When we talk about the squeezed middle classes, I understand that water bills are going to be higher. However, if we do not take those measures, the cost of water in a few years’ time will be a great deal higher.
The one issue I have is that much of what has gone in the White Paper is business as usual: “We have always had a lot of water. Water is fine. We can deal with it, and there will not be a problem”. That is not really the case. I manage a private water supply—I have a borehole—and it focuses your mind on some of the problems with water. One of the major problems with water is the cost of extraction. The cost of extracting water through a borehole is very high in energy. Of course, water companies are some of the highest users of energy in the country, so when we are talking about price sustainability, we also have to think about how much it will cost us in energy terms, and energy prices are going up quite dramatically.
We also have to think about the fact that we tend to forget that the price covers not just the extraction of water but the treatment of sewage. Dealing with a blocked septic tank on a freezing cold Sunday morning in December focused my mind on the problems of sewage on a personal level. We should realise that as much energy is used in getting clean water to us as is used in dealing with sewage and reprocessing the water.
We have to make sure that the water companies understand that sustainability is an issue. That is where I have a slight disagreement with Ofwat. Ofwat has a secondary duty of sustainability, not a primary duty. Many noble Lords have talked about the regulator’s sustainability duty, but it is secondary to economic regulation and means that sustainability has not been as important. The issue is slightly more important now because there is a real problem with which duties are undertaken by which regulatory authority. In Committee in another place, the constructive tension between the environmental regulator and the economic regulator was referred to as leading to an optimal outcome in the periodic review process. The noble Lord, Lord Whitty, indicated that that might have been the case in the past; however, the Environment Agency no longer has a policy role and, while it gives guidance, it relates to statutory duties and it no longer actively promotes an environmental agenda with water companies. At the same time, the Environment Agency has been given a duty to promote economic growth. No commensurate duties or functions have been placed on Ofwat. This means that the creative tension really no longer exists.
A resilience duty is good for resilience—and I stress that I do not underestimate the importance of a resilience duty—but it does not by default mean that it is an environmental duty. Waterwise and other green NGOs feel that there needs to be something stronger, such as a primary sustainability duty on Ofwat to ensure that issues such as water efficiency and catchment base solutions, which have been mentioned by many noble Lords, and energy management come to the fore.
An issue that often gets overlooked and was always overlooked in the energy debate is that it is no longer business as usual. We are going to have to change our habits in relation to water. We will have to start thinking about water efficiency. We are one of the highest users of water in Europe. We waste potable water—drinking water—by washing our cars with it. That water has an energy cost that has been processed and an environmental cost. We are going to have to start changing fundamentally how we look at water efficiency. A water efficiency duty placed on Ofwat would be a start to meeting that sustainability agenda. The water companies already have a water efficiency duty placed on them, but the water regulator tells them how they can spend their money. If they are to change their attitude, then we have to change the attitude of the regulator. There would be a question as to whether that should be through a primary duty on sustainability, or a primary duty of water efficiency and energy use. That argument is yet to happen, and I would very much hope that the Minister will look at it.
This issue really has to be taken seriously. We could be facing a hosepipe ban now due to the drought of 2012. We are going to see a great deal more of this flip-flop between flooding on the one hand and drought on the other. I do not think that hosepipe bans are going to be the worst of our problems. When we go back to standpipes we will have a real issue. I hope that this could be looked at. I first started having this argument with Ofwat a number of years ago. One of the problems is that nothing moves quickly in the water sector. The decisions we make now will have fundamental implications for the future of the water industry. I very much hope that the Government can look favourably upon a sustainability amendment and, if not that, upon a water efficiency duty—I understand the reliance duty incorporates issues of climate change—and an energy duty. If not, I would feel that that had to be imposed upon the Bill.
Welfare of Wild Animals in Travelling Circuses (England) Regulations 2012
Lord Redesdale Excerpts(11 years, 6 months ago)
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Lord Redesdale
My Lords, I have not carried out the same amount of research as the noble Lord, Lord Colwyn, but I did watch “Madagascar 3” on the airplane coming back from Doha the other day. That is an interesting film as the prevailing mood is that wild animals should not be used in circuses but in that major blockbuster the zoo animals own a circus. I raise that point as it is interesting to see how trends change.
We are talking about a total of between 30 and 50 animals, with the consensus being around 39. These stopgap measures are useful as they will increase costs. Consequently, many circuses will consider whether it is economically viable to continue to keep wild animals given that the whole industry has an estimated turnover of a mere £2 million. When one considers the number of circuses in existence, that figure shows that it is not the most lucrative of professions.
My son requested me to ask the following question as we visit Zippos Circus, which comes to Hampstead Heath once a year. Last year I noticed protestors complaining about the use of horses. I was extremely impressed by the circus’s standards of animal welfare for its domesticated animals such as horses and budgerigars. I asked the Minister earlier to ensure that budgerigars are not considered to be wild animals in this context. I very much hope that he will take into account the cost of veterinary intervention. Obviously, I am against the use of wild animals in circuses but I hope that the cost of veterinary intervention for domesticated animals—that does not seem to be a massive issue at present—has been taken into account.
Lord Knight of Weymouth
My Lords, I welcome some movement on this issue by Defra because, like others, including the noble Lord, Lord Kirkhill, I very much agree that the use of wild animals in circuses is not appropriate. However, I am not talking about domesticated animals. I also agree that wild animals are treated cruelly in circuses. I noted the Minister’s comment right at the beginning of his speech that this measure is the first step towards introducing a ban on ethical grounds. I hope that when he winds up he will say whether the Government will stick to the commitment made by his predecessor to introduce an ethical ban in this Parliament. That would enforce the will of the other place which voted unanimously to introduce such a ban, using Section 12 of the Animal Welfare Act. The Minister’s noble friend Lady Parminter asked about Defra’s latest opinion regarding the legal position of such a ban. It would be interesting to hear the answer to that question as well.
I strongly support the principle of a ban. Some worry that bringing forward regulations that last for seven years, with a review after five years, might undermine the notion that there is any momentum behind that principle. However, I was pleased to hear the Minister say that this measure is the first step and if he can reassure us on the timeline, I would be most grateful. Clearly, we need to improve welfare standards. That is the reason why I oppose the use of wild animals in circuses. In so far as it goes there is some merit in these regulations in improving those standards. However, it is worth asking whether it would have been easier, cheaper and clearer to go for an outright ban. Those circuses that use wild animals would hear that message and a timeline set out by government and would phase them out over the intervening couple of years rather than getting used to a new set of regulations which are only temporary anyway, which may be phased out in favour of the ban on which there is all-party agreement.
Reference was made obliquely, which I wish to address head on, as to whether the enforcement mechanism in these regulations is flawed. Clearly, if we are bringing forward regulations that are not going to work and that are only temporary anyway, there is not very much point in proceeding.
I am most grateful to the RSPCA and the Born Free Foundation for forwarding me the joint briefing they have prepared and in which they go into some detail. I have copied relevant sections to the Minister so that he could have time properly to consider the argument they made. I shall summarise it. The main sanction in these regulations is to suspend the licence. If the licence is suspended, something has to happen to the animals that are then being held without a licence. Regulations state that a licence is required for any place where a wild animal associated with such a circus is kept. Therefore keeping them where the circus is is not an option unless, I guess, the circus holds an alternative licence for that location, which is extremely unlikely, given that we are talking about a travelling circus. Moving the animals is possible only if the site where the animals are held during the suspension also holds a licence. Any site that held the animals without a licence would find itself in contravention of the regulations. Given that suspensions come into effect immediately and initial granting of a licence requires prior inspection by a Defra inspector, plus the relevant fees to be paid et cetera, that clearly is not a practical solution either, unless the expectation is that the circus owner would hold an additional licence for their home site to cover this eventuality, if he is allowed to move them to that alternative site under this licensing regime, which seems a bit unlikely, given my reading of the regulations.
The only other possible option—unless the Minister tells me otherwise—is moving animals to another licensed circus during a suspension, again, if the circus is allowed to move them. However, given that we have heard from the Minister that the Secretary of State is required to have 14 days’ notice if a wild animal is introduced to any circus—I guess to add it to the stock list that the Minister referred to in his opening comments—I cannot see how that will work either. There are real questions about whether these regulations are enforceable using the sanction set out. Even if the Minister is unable to do anything else, if he can answer that question I will go away happy that I have achieved something.
There are four other points that I would like to make briefly. The first is about whether the welfare standard is good enough. I have a fundamental problem, which is one I wrestled with in my brief tenure as a Defra Minister five years ago, and I never managed to resolve it. It is that the same animal could be held under different licence regimes if it was unfortunate enough to be moved about into different settings, and each has a different standard of welfare and husbandry attached to it. Let us take the example of a small primate: a marmoset monkey would be a common one. On a Monday, the marmoset might be held in a pet shop under a pet shop licence under a particular standard of welfare and then be sold and held under a dangerous wild animal licence in someone’s home, which is a different set of standards. Then perhaps that does not work out, as keeping primates as pets often does not work out, so on the Wednesday, the animal is sold to a circus. In the circus, it is held under another set of welfare and husbandry standards. Then perhaps the circus owner finds that this marmoset is not such an attraction and is not easily forced into doing the amusing things that punters want to pay for, so on the Thursday, the animal ends up in a zoo and is under another set of welfare standards, which are the highest welfare standards.
There are those who oppose zoos altogether, and we debated that the other day. It does not seem logical or credible that, if we are starting with the principle of animal welfare in how these animals should be kept, there are four different licensing regimes, and that is before I get into the distraction of the Home Office licensing regime if they are to be used for experimentation, because that is a whole different debate that I do not think we want to get into. I would like to see the welfare standards in these regulations at the highest current licence standard, which is the standard that we have for zoos, animal parks and rescue centres. I do not think that they deliver that and there is a real question about whether the welfare standards are good enough.
My second point is around the quality of the licensing inspections and the expertise that will be deployed in Condition 6(2) of the regulations dealing with the inspectors that the circus owners themselves would use. It is notable, for example, that in a famous case in 1997 of Mary Chipperfield Promotions in Hampshire, the farm was an official MAFF quarantine facility. It carried a Dangerous Wild Animals Act licence, it was registered under the performing animals regulation and the co-owner, Roger Crawley, was at the time a government zoo inspector. It had all sorts of regulations, which should have reassured us that this was a quality establishment. Yet the evidence eventually gathered at Mary Chipperfield’s facility, including that acquired by a friend of mine, Alison Cronin, who runs a Monkey World, led to the conviction on various charges of Mary Chipperfield, her elephant keeper and Roger Crawley for cruelty to a sick elephant.
That tells me that even at the highest standard of regulation we have had problems with animal welfare. We know of other examples of premises and circuses that had been inspected where the wool has been pulled over inspectors’ eyes over the training of elephants. Local authorities have some competence in this licensing regime and I am concerned about whether they consistently have the expertise available to them to do any of the licensing.
I note what the Minister said about the regulations being enforced by Defra using vets from the existing list of veterinarians. Obviously, I have every respect for the Royal College, for its self-regulation and the standards of vets. But I would like the Minister's reassurance that vets with a vested interest in circuses are not engaged on that list. We have a fundamental problem around the level of expertise in the veterinary population in dealing with some of these species of wild animals. Not many vets are experienced in dealing with elephants, lions, some of the other wild cats and the primates that may be kept in circuses. If any of those few are making a living out of working for circuses, there is a conflict of interest and I want some reassurance that those conflicted vets would not be engaged on the list.
My penultimate point is about travel time. I note that in Condition 10 of the regulations no maximum travel time has been listed. I recall a debate we had towards the end of the summer before the Recess about the transportation of horses. There was widespread concern across your Lordships' House about travel time for horses. Noble Lords probably share the same concern about travel time for wild animals and yet no maximum limit has been set. Why not?
Finally, there is the issue of new species and the ability in these regulations for circus operators to submit new species to Defra for inclusion in the stock list. Given that these regulations are temporary, I find a facility to include new species odd because it undermines the notion that a ban is coming pretty soon in this Parliament—if the previous promises are to be kept. But if there are good reasons for including new species, we should shift the presumption from Defra having to produce individual standards for those new species to the circus operators themselves having to provide evidence that any animals that they are adding to the stock list will not suffer. That would be more manageable for Defra and we would then have the presumption the right way round.
I am sorry to have spoken a lot longer than anyone else although I guess that that is sometimes my role in this place. Beyond the principle, I am most concerned about the enforcement mechanism. But if the Minister could also give me some answers about the welfare standards, the quality of the inspection, travel time and the arrangements for new species, I would be most grateful.
Food: Waste
Lord Redesdale Excerpts(12 years, 5 months ago)
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Lord Taylor of Holbeach
We are working through a voluntary deal in the Courtauld agreement. It has had some success, as I have just revealed with the figures on the reduction of food waste. Much of that is down to the work that WRAP has done in co-operation with the grocery retail trade and food manufacturing sector. My noble friend is right that more needs to be done to meet our new target for reducing waste in the supply chain. We are developing Courtauld 2 to achieve that objective.
Lord Redesdale
My Lords, are the Government making it a priority to return the nutrients and phosphates from food waste back on to the land through anaerobic digestion? I declare an interest as chairman of the Anaerobic Digestion and Biogas Association. Also, are the Government taking into account the financial savings that are being made for council tax payers through using anaerobic digestion and segregating waste on the doorstep? This has been undertaken in Wales and has shown that it costs councils a great deal less than putting it into landfill.
Lord Taylor of Holbeach
I thank my noble friend. Anaerobic digestion can divert food waste from landfill. It generates some renewable energy and improved nutrient management on farms, as he said. The biogas can generate heat and energy or be injected into the gas grid. The Government published an AD strategy and action plan in June that includes actions to develop a £10 million loan fund to support that new capacity. However, the strategy must be to avoid food waste in the first place, hence the Government’s focus on the Courtauld agreement. I note what my noble friend said about the Welsh experiment. We are learning a lot from projects undertaken in the devolved authorities. We will certainly monitor them carefully and take that on board.
Dog Control Bill [HL]
Lord Redesdale Excerpts(12 years, 6 months ago)
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Lord Grantchester
My Lords, before we pass the noble Lord’s Bill to the other place, I am reminded that the Minister, the noble Lord, Lord Henley, on Report in June stated that he might have some more to say at Third Reading. Seeing the new Minister in his place, perhaps I may ask him if he would like to say a few words more.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Lord Taylor of Holbeach)
My Lords, I think the House knows that it is not customary for the House to debate the resolution that the Bill do now pass. Given my noble friend Lord Henley’s commitment to say something at Third Reading, I will briefly update the House.
I hope that I can reassure all noble Lords that I understand their concerns about dog control. However, the Government cannot support this Bill. My noble friend Lord Henley had been working on a comprehensive package of measures to deal with dangerous dogs and irresponsible dog ownership. I continue to carry on his good work, including meetings with key stakeholders, and I hope to announce this package shortly.
Lord Redesdale
My Lords, I thank the Minister for that response. This is not the first time that I have brought this Bill before Parliament. Obviously, I brought it while the Opposition were the Government and I did not get a great deal of satisfaction at that point. I thank the Minister for his reply. Perhaps I may also thank the very large number of people who are incredibly committed to making sure that we have a safer environment, including those people working with the dog-owning community, police officers and, especially, organisations such as the Battersea Dogs & Cats Home which have to deal with this growing problem. I very much hope that, in going to the House of Commons, this Bill will get a fair wind. I beg to move.
Dog Control Bill [HL]
Lord Redesdale Excerpts(12 years, 11 months ago)
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Lord Redesdale
leave out “is to” and insert “must”
Lord Redesdale
My Lords, in speaking to Amendment 1, I wish to raise a couple of issues about how we have tried to deal with some of the questions raised at earlier stages of this Private Member’s Bill. Obviously, Private Members’ Bills rarely become law, but they provide a fabulous test bed to make sure that the wording and sentiment of the proposal are correct so that, hopefully, when the Government come to their senses and decide that this is one of the most worthy pieces of legislation to be placed before them, they will immediately grab it with both hands and at a later stage bring forward a Bill reflecting almost every aspect of this Bill. I would like to address some of the concerns highlighted at Committee stage in March surrounding the issues of how and by whom it is decided what “dangerously out of control” constitutes within the Bill, as raised by the noble Lords, Lord Skelmersdale and Lord Pearson of Rannoch. One of the reasons for doing this is that I have had a large number of letters on this matter, so I thought it as well to deal with the issue by way of formulating the amendments that have been put forward.
The Bill’s intention is not to see responsible dog handlers and owners penalised but to deal with those owners who give others a bad name so that we can better protect the public by dealing with potentially dangerous dogs at the first signs of a behaviour problem. It is important to note that dogs are protected from the overzealous officer by writing into the Bill specific circumstances when a dog can be excused for being aggressive. A dog that bites a burglar or a mugger does not commit an offence, as the burglar or mugger is in the wrong. Equally, police and service dogs are protected. If the dog is attacked by a person and bites, no offence is committed. I believe that these rules achieve a sensible balance between protecting the public from unwarranted dog attacks and allowing dogs to behave normally. The Bill expects that the enforcers of this legislation will have adequate competency in dealing with dog-related issues to distinguish between a true act of aggression and normal acceptable canine behaviour. The Control of Dogs (Scotland) Act 2010, which has been in force since February, has not led to an influx of barking dogs being brought before court or issued with dog control notices. It is important to keep in mind that the final decision on whether a dog is dangerously out of control must lie with the court on the evidence presented to it.
I will address the specific concerns raised by the noble Lord, Lord Richard, at the previous stage of the Bill. He sought clarification on why the words “aggressive or” were removed from Clause 2(1)(a) while the same words were left in Clause 2(1)(b), and he wanted to know whether this was intentional. The decision to retain “aggressive or” within Clause 2(1)(b) was intentional, as it refers to the person who is responsible for encouraging a dog to be aggressive. Clause 2(1)(a), however, simply refers to allowing a dog to be aggressive, which I conceded at Second Reading could be open to abuse or misinterpretation. The noble Lord, Lord Richard, is immediately looking straight through the Bill with his usual “dogged” determination—
Lord Redesdale
My Lords, that is nothing compared to the jibes which I have had from these benches over the course of this Bill, so I thought I would poke a little fun back.
Obviously, this is a very difficult question to deal with, because it raises so many issues. Many dog owners feel that this has raised a number of issues which will put them at risk and, therefore, I was using this opportunity to put the record straight and maybe to stem some of the flow of letters that I will probably receive after this stage.
Amendment 1 would delete “is to” and insert “must” in Clause 3(6). It deals with and acknowledges the comments of the noble Lord, Lord Richard, in Committee in relation to the terminology,
“the appropriate national authority, local authority or police authority is to satisfy itself”.
The recommendation is that this wording be changed. I hope that this addresses the issue. I beg to move.
Lord Redesdale
Lord Redesdale
My Lords, I was slightly taken aback by that exciting debate. I realise that I am obviously winning the argument this morning.
Amendment 2 deals with the point raised by the noble Lord, Lord Skelmersdale, during the previous debate and rectifies a drafting error within paragraph 3(3) of the Schedule. As the Bill covers both England and Wales, “Secretary of State” has been removed and “appropriate national authority” has been included in its place. I do not intend to speak a great deal on this issue, but it does show the value of being able to use the knowledge of this House to scrutinise and pick out issues that are difficult to spot for those putting forward Private Members’ Bills. I thank all those, especially those from the dangerous dogs study group, who have taken part in helping with the amendments.
I very much hope that, at the next stage of the Bill, we will receive some indication from the Government that their position may change and move forward, especially considering the results of the consultation, to which 4,500 have replied.
On that basis, I beg to move.
Lord Richard
As the noble Lord was kind enough to refer to me, perhaps I may briefly respond. I have to say that I do not think that this is a very well-drafted, apposite or timely Bill, but on the other hand I think that the thrust of it is good. What the noble Lord is trying to achieve on the whole might be a desirable thing. However, the one thing he will not be able to do is legislate in this way by means of a Private Member’s Bill. He has done a service to the House in exposing both sides of the argument, and it is now for the Government to decide whether they wish to pick up this issue and deal with it. As far as I am concerned, it is an issue that the Government ought to deal with. I know that we are considering a specific Private Member’s Bill—as your Lordships may have gathered, I am not too keen on the actual Bill itself—but, nevertheless, it does seem to me an issue that the Government ought to take seriously and look at.
Lord Henley
Depending on when Third Reading happens, that in the course of the debate on whether the Bill do now pass, I might be in a position to say something. That depends very much on when my noble friend seeks the Third Reading of the Bill. I make no guarantees, and the noble Lord will well know that “in due course” can be a rather flexible form of time, and he will just have to wait and see.
Lord Redesdale
I thank the noble Lord, Lord Richard, for coming in and eliciting a response from the Government. I also thank the Minister for the fulsome proposal that the Government will bring forward such useful information at the point of Third Reading. On that basis, I will wait probably until after the summer for Third Reading, although I realise that “after summer” means September rather than, in the Government’s parlance, somewhere nearer March. However, on that basis, I hope that this amendment will be acceptable.
Dog Control Bill [HL]
Lord Redesdale Excerpts(13 years, 10 months ago)
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Lord Redesdale
My Lords, it is quite useful to carry on from the previous Bill in this Second Reading debate because we are also considering changing legislation that is slightly flawed. I refer to the Dangerous Dogs Act 1991. I was looking round the Chamber trying to work out how many Peers were here in 1991. I know that the Minister was. Actually, everyone speaking today was, apart from the noble Lord, Lord Grantchester. This was one of the first Bills I ever saw go through the House as a young 23 year-old.
The Bill at that time was enacted as a result of a very unfortunate dog attack, but it was a knee-jerk reaction and many people say that the 1991 Dangerous Dogs Act is one of the worst pieces of legislation on the statute book. To put that in context, the Metropolitan Police said that in the past three years £10 million has been spent trying to kennel dogs that are seen to be pit bulls and prosecute their owners.
The legislation has not worked. The issue was to make everybody safer but in 2008-09 NHS costs in A&E were £2.7 million for dog attacks. They are rising year on year. In London they have gone up 79 per cent and 43 per cent in the rest of the country. The attacks on young people last year went up 119 per cent. If we had legislation on dogs that worked I would have no difficulty in not introducing this Bill. But that is not the case.
More importantly, the Dangerous Dogs Act created half of the problem. By saying that anything that looks like a pit-bull terrier is a dangerous dog has created status dogs. There has been a massive rise in dogs that people believe are dangerous. We can see them in every street in London. I am afraid I was not here for the maiden speech of the noble Baroness, Lady Hayter, but I was in Kentish Town the other day, and we can see these dogs there and in all parts of London. There is a real issue not about the type but about the behaviour of dogs. The Bill deals with the deeds of the dog, not the breed of the dog.
We can make sure that dogs on our streets are safe. That is a social issue, because people should not feel threatened on the streets, but it is also an animal welfare issue. Many animal welfare issues are associated with those people who do not look after dogs, who do not treat them properly and who desocialise them.
I think that the Government will like the Bill for another reason. They have spoken about “One piece of legislation in, one piece of legislation out”. The Bill is “One in and four out”. It would get rid of the 1871 Act, the 1989 Act—that is not in the Bill at the moment but we will add it as an amendment—the 1991 Act and the amendment to that, the 1997 Act. People who have read the Bill who have no specialist knowledge understand the concept of what is proposed. That is important, because we have so many pieces of legislation that, often, those who are enforcing them do not understand what they are supposed to do.
The purpose of the Bill is quite clear. It can be set out in three areas. The first is owner responsibility. That is key. Dog ownership is about owner responsibility. There are tens of thousands of strays on the street, but you do not hear about people being attacked by strays. Almost all the attacks—including, distressingly, the large number of attacks on children—are by dogs owned by people’s relatives. It is about owners’ responsibility. Anyone who has owned a dog will understand that owning a dog is not just a right, it has responsibilities associated with it.
The second fundamental aspect of the Bill is that it is targeting behaviour. It is not breed-specific; it covers any dog that can be dangerous. Quite a few laws around the world mirror our dangerous dogs legislation, and they contain a large list of breeds. It is interesting that in many places, many breeds are on those lists that people in this country would not associate with dangerous dogs, but, in other countries, they look at the number of dog attacks and say, “That is a dangerous dog”. The real issue is that any dog can be a problem if it is desocialised and not trained properly. The Bill focuses on ensuring that owners understand their responsibility for ensuring that dogs are well looked after and trained properly.
The third aspect is that the Bill provides a better level of protection for the public. The purpose of the Bill is not to introduce yet more legislation that may do something. We know that a large number of dog attacks, and the worst dog attacks, come from dogs which have a history of anti-social behaviour which culminates in attacking people or—the worst thing—a child. We are trying with the Bill to start at the basic level to ensure that there is help for owners who have difficult dogs. The notice orders can start with very basic measures—ensuring that the owner keeps the dog on a lead or muzzled—but the Bill also covers prevention. One way to do that is to ensure that owners are pushed into having dog training. The dog training is not just aimed at the dog; it is also aimed at the owner. Dog training is as much about training the owner as about training the dog. Of course, there are further measures for those who break those provisions and for more serious attacks, leading to prison sentences or fines.
We need to start preventing dog attacks. We know that what we have at the moment is not working because the number of dog attacks is rising. The Bill addresses the issue of private property. I know that that is a very vexed area, but cases where children have been mauled—I could go through them, but I do not have time and people have read the papers—often happen on private property. It is unacceptable in today’s society, when a child is attacked in a house, to say, “But it is private property. Therefore, there is no measure under the law by which we can bring a prosecution”. As a former dog owner, I would find it difficult to leave a baby or a young child alone with almost any dog because there are risks associated with that. The owner has responsibilities. He cannot walk away and say, “God! I never knew that would happen. It was a lovely dog”. Any dog can be very nice and have a bad day, especially when the child pokes it in the ear with a pencil.
There are a couple of issues that the Bill is not about. We have tried to be as transparent as possible. This is not a covert way of introducing a hunting ban. This is focused on dogs attacking other dogs or people. One reason we are particularly concerned about dogs attacking other dogs is that that is a good indicator of dogs that are out of control. If you are a dog owner, you talk to everybody else in the areas where you walk the dog, especially in parks. You often find out that dogs that are not under control often attack other dogs, which can be a precursor for them attacking people. If we can get in at that stage, it would be a good preventive measure.
This is a difficult area. I must commend the work of all the groups we brought together to work on this. To mix my metaphors, talking about dogs legislation is a bit like herding cats. There are certain grey areas that will need to be looked at. I am happy to talk to Peers about working dogs so that we can make sure that we have not left any gaping holes in the legislation and that any changes made by the Bill would not be used as loopholes by anyone who misuses such amendments.
This is the Bill’s second outing. I took it through the previous Parliament. I think that is an extremely good process because legislation that passes the first time can have many problems. We learnt a lot from taking the Bill through the first time and from talking to people. It is a bit like young men failing their driving test the first time; I think it should almost be obligatory because they tend to be better drivers the second time around.
There is a Defra consultation taking place at the moment, so the fact that the Bill will not come back to this House until after the summer will be useful because there were 4,000 responses. If Defra believes that the Bill reflects the view of the general public and the organisations that contributed to that consultation, it will be very positive.
This is not groundbreaking legislation. The Control of Dogs (Scotland) Act introduced control notices in Scotland and has proved to be quite successful. You can tell that an Act is reasonably successful when there are not masses of complaints when it is brought in and people believe that it is workable legislation.
I must now run through the clauses of the Bill and outline briefly its general aims. The Bill is promoted by the Dangerous Dogs Act Study Group, which comprises the leading animal welfare and veterinary organisations. It repeals all current legislation relating to dangerous dogs—thereby removing breed-specific legislation—introduces dog control notices in a legal sense and strengthens previous legislation to cover dog attacks in private as well as in public places to protect workers going about their business and families in their homes. I stress “workers going about their business”. The CWU, which represents postal workers, reports 6,000 attacks on its members last year, which is a worrying statistic, particularly as some of the attacks were extremely serious.
Clause 1 defines the individual who is considered to be responsible for a dog. Clause 2(1) explains the actions that are prohibited when keeping a dog under control and extends responsibility to private property as well as public land. It sets out that encouraging a dog to be aggressive or to intimidate or attack a person or a protected animal or to behave aggressively or to be dangerously out of control without reasonable cause is an offence and may result in the owner being issued with a dog control notice.
Clause 2(2) cites reasonable cause and is not exhaustive. It includes dogs provoked by a person or other animal used for lawful purposes, or dogs protecting their owner or property from a person who is entering a place that they are not permitted to be while committing an offence. Obviously that list is not comprehensive or exhaustive, but we have to base this Bill on common sense. These are common-sense defences for any dog acting in a certain way if provoked.
Clause 3 explains cause for issuing a dog control notice. It outlines that local authority officers will implement the law, but that they must have some previous knowledge or experience of dogs. I should say that we will be introducing an amendment which will not focus on just local authority representatives. We talked about local authorities because of the cost implications. Many issues will be based at a local level. However, we will introduce an amendment whereby the Secretary of State will be able to specify those parties which can issue control notices. Of course, the police will be included in that. Only the police will be able to carry out certain aspects, including entering private property, and there is a level of training that we will need to make sure is implemented.
Clause 4 outlines the requirements placed on an owner of a dog if he or she is issued with a dog control notice, the data that must be on the dog control notice and the requirement to permanently identify, via a microchip, the dog involved in the incident. This is one of the important aspects of the Bill. At the moment, one of the problems is linking dogs to their owners. The microchipping of the dogs will link dogs with problems to owners.
Clause 5 details the appeals process which must be followed by any person wanting to contest a dog control notice and outlines the court procedure should this take place. Clause 6 makes provision to local authorities regarding maintenance of the dog control notice database and sharing information with other relevant bodies. Clause 7 details penalties for non-compliance of a dog control notice, including criminal conviction, a fine, disqualification from owning or keeping a dog, or further dog control notices.
Clause 8 explains the conditions by which an authorised officer or local authority can vary or remove a dog control notice. Obviously, we will add a section about the “authorised officer” in the amendment. Clause 9 details the process by which a person is issued with a dog control notice and may apply for it to be varied or removed. Clause 10 imposes penalties for failure to comply with Clause 2, including a dog control order, a disqualification or deprivation order, a destruction order, a fine or a prison sentence. It also outlines the procedures that must be followed when issuing a deprivation, disqualification or destruction order.
Clause 11 outlines the police, local authority and court procedures when seizing or disposing of a dog involved in an offence with the focus being on best protecting the animal’s welfare. Clause 12 repeals all previous legislation regarding dangerous dogs with the intention of taking the most effective elements of each Act and placing them in one clear piece of legislation. Clause 13 deals with citations and sets out the definition of certain expressions used in the Bill.
I believe that this is a first step. Many people talk about going a lot further than this. However, we believe that this is a proportionate response. We know that the present system is not working. It has been given almost 20 years to work. It was amended once and still there are escalating costs. I remember the debates. If it had worked there would not be a pit bull in this country. We now know that there are far more legally owned pit bulls than there were when the Act was introduced. It has failed.
Some people would say that we need dog licensing. There is a problem with this. In a time of fiscal restraint, dog licensing would be an extremely expensive measure, and I do not believe that many people would take it forward. The Dogs Trust carried out a survey on the dog licensing regime in force in Northern Ireland and worked out that only around a third of dog owners actually have a dog licence. Responsible owners will take out a licence, but it will be ignored by others. Moreover, the real issue is that under the present legislation the dog licence could not be ring-fenced, so we could not pay for the licence using funds from dog owners, it would have to come out of general funding. I think that the Treasury would have an issue with that.
This Bill is supported by the Kennel Club, the Dogs Trust, Blue Cross, the British Veterinary Association, the Royal College of Veterinary Surgeons, Battersea Dogs and Cats Home, the Country Land and Business Association and many representatives from a number of local authorities throughout the country. Its purpose is simple. Under the old legislation, we put the responsibilities at the wrong end of the lead. This is about making sure that the responsibilities are not put on the dog, but on the owner at the other end of the lead. If people cannot be responsible for their dogs so that they are a danger to other animals and to people, they should not own a dog. I beg to move.
Lord Redesdale
My Lords, perhaps I should start with the Minister’s response. I have put forward a large number of Private Member’s Bills, many of which have failed to get through, but elements of many of them have been turned into law. The point that I want to make to all noble Lords is that the Bill is not being brought forward in a rush; hundreds and hundreds of hours have been spent in consultation with many experts in the area looking at the precise questions that the noble Lord, Lord Mancroft, asked. Those are the real issues. We know what the problems are out there; many of our experts have looked at them and have asked what the potential solutions are.
The Minister made a number of points, one of which was the question of owning a dog that attacks someone without reasonable cause. However, the important point here is that we have to act in a preventive way. We have to try to intervene before these horrific attacks take place.
The Minister mentioned private property, which is an extremely vexed issue. However, I come back to the case raised by the noble Lord, Lord Grantchester, of John-Paul Massey. My first point is that the dogs involved in that case probably fall under Section 1 of the Act, so using it as an example of an attack shows how badly the Act has failed. The second point is that there were two instances where action could have been taken but was not. I am not saying that this Bill would have stopped the attack but it would have provided a point of intervention. The real issue that I have with many of the reasons that have been put forward for opposing the Bill is that, year on year, more and more attacks are occurring and they are costing an incredible amount of money, as is the Act itself.
As many noble Lords have said, the Act is failing. I am not saying that this Private Member’s Bill is perfect, and I very much understand the Minister’s point about looking at the Defra consultation and bringing forward the results. The Minister said that he was not going to make any decisions until he had read the consultation. Obviously, that consultation paper was drafted by another Government. However, I should very much like to know the results of it because I think that many of the points raised by the Bill will be central elements in the responses to that consultation.
The noble Lord, Lord Mancroft, referred to the increase in the number of attacks, and I shall very happily write to him with that information. He also mentioned attacks on squirrels. I am well known for my genocidal activities towards grey squirrels. Squirrels and rats would not fall under this measure. Indeed, after the last outing of the Bill, we took a great deal of time ensuring that the views expressed, including those of my noble friend Lord Shrewsbury, were looked at so that such incidents did not fall under this Bill.
The noble Lord, Lord Mancroft, said that it was a matter of genetics, and I totally agree. You would not let a whippet run around in a field full of sheep but the point is that it is the owner who is letting the dog off the lead. Therefore, the Bill says that the owner is responsible and that it would be irresponsible to let certain dogs off the lead in a field full of sheep. That issue was raised by the noble Lord, Lord Grantchester, and I totally agree with him. It is about making sure that dog owners are responsible. I have been shocked by how few dog owners in the countryside are responsible; they feel that they almost have a right not to be responsible for their dogs.
As the noble Earl, Lord Shewsbury, pointed out, there is an issue about dogs going about their duty, and that needs to be looked at. Clause 2(3) deals with reasonable cause. There has to be a level of common sense, as there has to be in implementing any legislation.
I thank my noble friend Lord Addington for supporting the legislation. A large number of issues need to be considered. However, we know that there is a problem. Pretending that it is not costing an enormous amount of money and that we cannot do anything is a failure. There will be more attacks. I was struck by the support of the Guide Dogs for the Blind Association and the concern about the increasing attacks on guide dogs by other dogs. The RSPCA has raised its own proposed legislation in the same way that I know the Minister has raised issues with this measure. I know that the RSPCA, which refers to licensing, would receive exactly the same response from the Minister. I am not disheartened by his view that the Government will not jump to support a Private Member’s Bill.
However, elements of this Bill could be taken forward. After the summer and after the Minister has had the chance to read the results of the consultation, I hope very much that we will be able to meet some of his officials to work through some of the concerns that he expressed about the Bill. I think that we can come to the Committee stage to see whether the elements that we all know need to be brought forward to help to prevent attacks on people, dogs—and children—can be discussed. I have introduced a few Private Member’s Bills in my time, especially on Fridays—not to a packed audience it has to be said—and I would love the Minister to say, “You have got it exactly right. We will have one of those and it will go on to the statute book”.
That is not how legislation works and it is certainly not how legislation should work. It is very important that we listen to the views of noble Lords about where there are failings and how to avoid the law of unintended consequences. That was one of the major problems with the Dangerous Dogs Act 1991. Because people were scared of pit bulls the Bill moved through far too quickly. Anyone who talked against it was seen as almost dangerous and irresponsible. We know that that has failed and that something must be done. The Minister has said that provisions will be brought forward. I very much hope that many of the provisions in this Bill are part of the solution of making people safer and making dogs’ welfare a priority.