European Union (Withdrawal Agreement) Bill

Lord Robathan Excerpts

2nd reading & 2nd reading (Hansard): House of Lords & 2nd reading (Hansard)
Monday 13th January 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord Robathan (Con)]

My Lords, after three and a half long years, at last we have a withdrawal Bill that has passed through the Commons, and we have it before us now. I am going to speak, briefly of course, about how we came to this position with this huge delay. I will sum it up with one word, although it gives me no pleasure: “disdain”.

I think referendums are a shocking idea. I am broadly opposed to them. But Parliament—this House as well as the other one—voted for one. The matter of Brexit has consumed this place, and indeed Parliament, ever since I was introduced here just over four years ago. First, before the referendum, those who supported leave were laughed at by the majority in this House. I was told that no one heckled in the House of Lords but I was heckled for being so presumptuous as to speak up for leaving.

Then we had the referendum, and there were shocked faces here because the stupid public had not listened to the wise words of people in this House and indeed elsewhere. Then after the 2017 general election, with a Government who were floundering, Parliament looked down its collective nose at the silly people. They were told why they had voted to leave and told how wrong and how stupid they were. But none of us can see inside another individual and determine why that individual voted in a particular way, so please let us not patronise people and tell them what they think.

In my opinion, the last House of Commons behaved in a disgraceful manner. People who I respected, such as Oliver Letwin, and indeed counted as friends reneged on manifesto commitments and set out to thwart the process of leaving the EU, passing, among other things, that dreadful Benn amendment. Parliament showed disdain for the people’s vote and contempt for the people of this country. Members of this House—unelected and unaccountable, where self-awareness is in astonishingly short supply—overwhelmingly opposed the outcome of the referendum, some of your Lordships openly saying that they wanted to stop the process, disdaining the foolish little people. Well, the little people too can show disdain: disdain for a Marxist-led party with no real policy on Brexit. I do not know why the noble Baroness, Lady Hayter, is smiling; that is what she had and that is the party to which she belongs.

The election was of course about more than one issue but the people of Sedgefield, Workington and the north showed what they thought: disdain for the party that—and I wish this were my original joke—should be prosecuted under the Trade Descriptions Act but who sit here pontificating, with eight times more Peers than they have Members in the House of Commons, and still want to tell the country what to do. However, there was a general election. I am reminded a little of the Japanese soldiers who emerged from the jungle 20 years after the end of the Second World War believing that the fight was still on. Then there were those who fought for different parties or who fought as independents, some of whom I again respected and liked. Chuka Umunna fought in Westminster and I very much hope there will be an explanation of quite how much the literature that came tumbling through my door cost, because—I tell you what—it was a lot more than most people can afford on £15,000 or whatever.

The disdain the British people showed has led to something much worse: disdain of the people for Parliament and contempt for the democratic process. We need to win back or earn some respect. Noble Lords should know that both in the Commons and in the country we will earn yet further disdain if this House tries to obstruct the will of the people in any way. It is not just Rebecca Long Bailey who is calling for the abolition of the House of Lords but some Conservatives as well. I would oppose that, not just for personal interest but because I think this House has a valuable revising purpose. Those who are still opposed to this process of leaving the EU should accept it with a good grace and let us all work together to restore the reputation of this House, of Parliament as a whole and of our parliamentary democracy.

Brexit

Lord Robathan Excerpts

Wednesday 2nd October 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Robathan (Con)]

My Lords, so after three and a quarter years, here we are again discussing Brexit. Actually, there are one or two new things to be discussed, such as this proposal that we have just heard and that the noble Lord, Lord Empey, has been talking about, but basically, there is nothing much that is new. The old arguments have been trotted out, so I will not disappoint the House and will repeat one or two.

Those who voted for a referendum, which I did not, who voted to implement Article 50, who stood on manifestos in 2017 promising to implement the results—

“no deal is better than a bad deal”,

it said in the Conservative Party manifesto—who promised to accept the result at the very beginning shame themselves by their obstructionism. I particularly single out the Liberal Democrats, although it is sad that there are only three here to listen.

[Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab)]

There are only four on your Benches.

[Lord Robathan]

There are only three Liberal Democrats here to listen to me. These people have avoided listening to me, but they went on for years about how they were campaigning for “a real referendum” on Europe, under Nick Clegg. Paddy Ashdown boasted that he called for a referendum on Europe in 1989 or 1990. Let me quote the late Paddy Ashdown:

“I will forgive no one who does not accept the sovereign voice of the British people … whether it’s by one percent or 20 percent”.


That was on the day of the referendum. Now, the Liberal Democrats have decided, “We will ignore the British people, ignore what they said, because we know better”, notwithstanding 10 years of campaigning for a referendum.

Why have we been called back? While we are here for a total of seven or eight days, we at least are discussing Brexit. Down the other end, an empty House of Commons has been discussing the Domestic Abuse Bill—a very important measure.

[Baroness Smith of Basildon]

The noble Lord says that it is an important measure, but he seems to be critical of what the House of Commons was discussing. I think he ought to be very careful where he goes with this.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Robathan]

As I was saying, it is a very important measure but, as the noble Baroness knows, the Second Reading is unlikely to proceed to law because we are likely to have a general election. I am not saying that it is not important, but there are not many people down in the House of Commons saying that it is important. The Commons is paralysed. It is a zombie Parliament—a dead Parliament, as the Attorney-General has said. We need a general election.

I am going to look at the judgments that brought us back here. I am not going to talk much about the Supreme Court judgment, although a little, but more about the judgment of 11 September. The Supreme Court talked of precedents, but there is none that I can see, unless we refer to the dictatorial monarchs of the 17th century: the Supreme Court judgment indeed refers to 1611.

On 11 September, the Lord Chief Justice, the noble and learned Lord, Lord Burnett, together with the Master of the Rolls and the President of the Queen’s Bench Division said:

“It is not a matter for the courts”.


I am going to quote extensively from that judgment and from Lord Bingham, who was highly regarded and described as the outstanding lawyer of his generation. The judgment of 11 September said:

“The refusal of the courts to review political questions is well established”.


It quoted Lord Bingham saying:

“The more purely political (in a broad or narrow sense) a question is, the more appropriate it will be for political resolution and the less likely it is to be an appropriate matter for judicial decision”.


In another quote from another case, Lord Bingham said that,

“matters of potentially great importance are left to the judgment … of political leaders (whether and when to seek a dissolution, for instance) …Where constitutional arrangements retain scope for the exercise of political judgement they permit a flexible response to differing and unpredictable events in a way which the application of strict rules would preclude”.

The judgment went on:

“Almost all important decisions made by the Executive have a political hue to them”.


In another case—this was only four years ago—the noble and learned Lord, Lord Neuberger, Lord Sumption and Lord Hodge said:

“The issue was non-justiciable because it was political”.


The judgment went on:

“The Prime Minister’s decision that Parliament should be prorogued at the time and for the duration chosen and the advice given to Her Majesty to do so in the present case were political”.


Surely, we all agree with that. It says in paragraph 64:

“The constitutional arrangements of the United Kingdom have evolved to achieve a balance between the three branches of the state; and the relationship between the Executive and Parliament is governed in part by statute and in part by convention. Standing Orders of both Houses elaborate the procedural relationship between the Executive and Parliament. This is territory into which the courts should be slow indeed to intrude by recognising an expanded concept of Parliamentary Sovereignty”,


and it concludes that,

“the decision of the Prime Minister to advise Her Majesty the Queen to prorogue Parliament is not justiciable in Her Majesty’s courts”.

I do not think anybody would disagree that politics and Parliament are not just paralysed; I fear that we are now despised because of our failure to respect the referendum result. The Supreme Court, I regret to say, has trespassed into politics and that is a very dangerous route down which to go. We have on the one hand three distinguished judges—the Lord Chief Justice et cetera—backed up by Bingham, Sumption and others, who thought that it was dangerous. In what is a febrile, heated and angry atmosphere, many are wondering why—because nobody can understand it —11 distinguished lawyers in the Supreme Court can completely contradict these other three distinguished lawyers beforehand. Some are wondering whether the Supreme Court has become part of an establishment remainer plot. As it happens, I do not think so and believe absolutely in the rule of law but—

[Noble Lords]

Oh!

[Lord Robathan]

I hear the Liberal Democrats laughing. I hope that they are going to pursue their policy even further, because that will lead them to the same result they had in 2015.

The increasing interference of courts is taking us to a continental system. Nobody asked for it; nobody has voted for it. It has been exacerbated by the ECHR being incorporated into law and by the creation of the Supreme Court. I agree with the Lord Chief Justice and not with the Supreme Court. To this House of unelected, unaccountable, privileged Peers, I say again that our whole political system is discredited. We need to leave on 31 October to get the poison out of our political discourse.

Brexit: Positions on the Pound

Lord Robathan Excerpts

Monday 30th September 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Robathan]

My Lords, has my noble friend heard any evidence whatsoever about the scurrilous accusations made against the Prime Minister, and does he agree that this is one of the most ridiculous and absurd conspiracy theories that I have heard outside of very cheap novels?

[Lord Callanan]

No and yes.

Brexit: Appointment of Joint Committee

Lord Robathan Excerpts

Wednesday 3rd July 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Robathan (Con)]

My Lords, it is often customary to say what a good debate people have been having. As it happens, on this occasion we have had some very good speeches—of varying quality, of course, but really very interesting—and although I may not have agreed with them, I have found some very interesting points made which deserve an answer. I am an optimist and always have been—but, like my noble friend Lord Cormack, I am pretty depressed at the moment. I have been depressed for about two years about politics, perhaps longer, and the current situation is really not good.

Brexit has turned some people in this country completely barking mad on both sides of the argument—especially the Liberal Democrats, of course; I will come to them in a minute, do not worry. We are not properly prepared, as we have heard, for a no-deal Brexit and it is a great pity because some people, including my noble friend Lord Bridges, I know worked pretty hard to get us into a state where we would be in a position to negotiate and leave in a better state. I can say absolutely categorically that I do not want no deal.

I particularly liked the optimistic point made by my noble friend Lord Howell about the EEA and I hope he is right, because I fear that that may be where we end up going. We have heard some cataclysmic speeches, which again were pretty depressing, and I hope that they were wrong, but this Motion I find somewhat unedifying. It is frankly a political ruse. It is designed to tie the hands of an incoming Prime Minister—and for the long term. The noble Lord, Lord Hunt—who, by the way, was absolutely right about the divisions that have been created—hinted that he would like to see Brexit stopped, as many people in this Chamber would.

[Noble Lords]

Hear, hear.

[Lord Robathan]

Thank you. This House is unelected, privileged and unaccountable, and the last word is the most important. I think we should be very wary of trying to stop Brexit—which, I have just heard from the shouts of “hear, hear”, many people wish to do.

Regarding no deal, I sit on one of the EU sub-committees and we have heard about many of the preparations. Indeed, my noble friend Lord Bridges referred to the number of SIs that have been done and so on. In some places we are ready to leave; I accept that entirely. Let us take transport. A couple of years ago we were told that aeroplanes would not be able to fly across the Channel and land because it would all be hell. I think everybody has realised that that is not true.

We heard other things about how we will be queueing all the way from Dover to Lincolnshire. Nobody really thinks that and nobody really thought it at the time. A few hours ago, somebody said to me—I hasten to add in jest—that he was going to fatten up to prepare for a Brexit winter. We hear about that as well: there will not be any food, there will not be any medicine—or whatever.

But this Motion is to my way of thinking a ploy. Whether one likes it or not—I do not believe that referendums are a good idea—17.4 million people voted to leave. They did not say, “I will vote to leave just as long as we get a good deal”. We might not agree with the result, but they voted to leave. That was the decision, and the public believed that their decision would be accepted because, for instance as Keir Starmer said:

“We all have to accept and respect the referendum outcome. I campaigned to stay in the EU, and I would have expected the result to be honoured if we had won it”.


Or let us take Vince Cable, who said:

“The public have voted and it is seriously disrespectful and politically utterly counter-productive to say, ‘Sorry guys, you’ve got it wrong. We’re going to try again’”.


I have other quotes, but I will not bore the House with them—the best of all is from the leader of the Liberal Democrats.

I say to the Liberal Democrats, who are here in force, that they have form on this. The noble Lord, Lord Newby, who spoke eloquently, was on the Front Bench in 2008, and there is certainly one person here who stormed out of the House of Commons when Nick Clegg led a stunt on 28 February, I think, to protest against the fact that the amendment that the Lib Dems had tabled to have a vote on a real referendum was not accepted. That was in their manifesto of 2010. So when they say they want another referendum, let us not pretend that that has always been their position.

I go back to the fact that we are not accountable. Many of us here have never had to listen to the electorate, and we are not elected. I regret to say to people here who do not like it that the electorate have spoken. We are in a hugely privileged position which people in the country are not in, so we should not be prepared—this is the point of the Motion—to tell the little people outside, to quote Vince Cable again, “Sorry guys, you’ve just got it wrong”. That would be very unwise.

As I said, this debate has brought out some very interesting points that are worth listening to and should be addressed by the Government, which is, as the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, said, pretty much paralysed at the moment. But if we try to thwart the will of the people, which I think underlies the Motion, we will be very, very ill-advised.

[Baroness Randerson (LD)]

My Lords, I shall try to concentrate on some factual points rather than opinions. In preparation for this debate, I looked back at previous Brexit debates. What struck me was how the situation and our expectations have deteriorated in the past year or so. I was also struck by the airy promises and assurances I received from a succession of Ministers which are now manifestly unachievable. We have been through the phase where no deal was unthinkable, through that of accepting that it was a possibility for which preparation was important, and are now in the phase where it is the preferred choice of the majority of Conservative Party members and is therefore being positively promoted by leadership candidates.

I start by talking about transport. Our whole economy rests on the shoulders of our transport industry. Looking at the industry, it is obvious how complex the process of addressing the costs of no deal would be. Let us start with the cost to government in preparation. There have been more than 60 transport-related SIs, which will have involved thousands of hours of preparation. There will be a whole new wave of them, because quite a few refer to the original 29 March date and will therefore now have to be revised. Many of our agreements with the EU on transport are limited to extending the current system for a small number of months. Those months were specified—sometimes it was September; occasionally the end of the year—so all that will have to be looked at again.

Then there is the money spent in preparation for no deal. The most commonly cited of those preparations, of course, are the ferry-less ferry services. Initially £100 million was allocated for assisting ferry companies—including the one with no ships—to provide additional ferry services. Because of fundamental errors in the way the contract was written, it has ended up with the Department for Transport having to pay many tens of millions of pounds of compensation to a fourth ferry company and to Eurotunnel. Because the other contracts specified 29 March, they too had to be scrapped and the ferry companies compensated for not getting the business, and it is now starting all over again.

There are ongoing preparations to avoid massive lorry queues into Dover. You can see the impact of Operation Brock on the M20. The initial costs were given as £7 million, but it must be a great deal more than that because it is a permanent separation of lanes to create a lorry park—with, of course, an impact on local businesses because of delays and accidents that have occurred there. In fact, the whole Kent economy is impacted by this. Think, too, about the cost to HMRC of 300 million additional customs declarations per year for our ports.

Then there are the costs to industry; many will admit that their preparations cost millions of pounds. The Government’s estimate is that there will be an 87% reduction in cross-channel trade for three to six months after a no-deal Brexit. Think about the impact of that on Eurotunnel and the freight and ferry operations. Some 16,000 lorries per day go through Dover to Calais. The impact of the queues for that number of lorries is considerable. At the moment you simply need an EU operator’s licence to transport goods to Europe. No deal could well lead to hauliers having to rely on a system of permits, of which our quota is 4,000. There are 38,000 freight operators and 4,000 permits; think about the impact on our industry. Clearly, many small operators will go out of business.

I turn briefly to aviation, which is worth £52 billion per year to our economy. Fifty-four per cent of scheduled flights go to the EU. Some operators are already moving a chunk of their business abroad, with costs to our economy, to qualify for cabotage rights in future. There have been agreements between the EU and the UK, but they are not written in a way that would prevent them being swept away in the event of a no-deal Brexit. Going through an airport at the moment, it takes 25 seconds for a British passport and 90 seconds for a third-country passport to be inspected by EU border forces. If you multiply that up, the impact of the queues on airports means vast costs to our economy.

The automotive industry is already suffering badly. The tide of Japanese investment is already flowing out; it came here only because we were in the EU. Job losses have been announced for Swindon, Sunderland and Bridgend, but remember that 160,000 people are employed in the supply chain as well—those are the hidden jobs. There are also costs to us as individuals. The noble Lord, Lord Robathan, once told me that he could not remember the international driving permit ever having existed, but people are buying those permits at the moment.

[Lord Robathan]

How can I ever forget? I still have my international driving permit from about 1970.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Smith of Newnham (LD)]

My Lords, this has been an extraordinary debate. Three years after the vote to leave the European Union, it is in many ways extraordinary that we are still debating what the consequences of a no-deal Brexit could be or considering the need to set up a committee to look at them.

As the noble Duke, the Duke of Wellington, suggested, this debate is arguably rather too late. One might think that it should have happened in July 2016 rather than July 2019. During debates on the EU referendum Bill in 2015, one or two of us called on the Government to have documents that looked at the consequences of leaving the European Union and the alternatives to membership. There was some reluctance on the Government Benches to produce such documents but eventually they did so. In addition, there was of course the notorious Treasury document that raised the spectre of the massive implications of leaving the European Union.

Those were government documents and perhaps received relatively little scrutiny. During the referendum campaign, they were rubbished by the leave side. If there is a case for a committee to look at these issues, it must be a committee of both Houses of Parliament and not the Government marking their own homework. We need full information, but it requires full and frank discussion on a cross-party basis and across both Houses. There needs to be truth and there needs to be trust.

The noble Lord, Lord Bridges, eloquently articulated the urgency of this matter and the things that need to be looked at—governmental preparations, legislative preparations and business preparations. He is absolutely right, but we on these Benches draw a slightly different conclusion. They are the right questions to be asked, but surely we are not going to ask the noble Lord, Lord Callanan, just to go away, write that paper and bring it back. It requires all parties to be part of this. It is not just about the Executive; it is about the legislature as well. It is about us doing our job as a responsible Chamber.

The noble Lord, Lord Robathan, raised some concerns. He seemed to think that this was an “unedifying” Motion, asked questions about our role and thought that it was perhaps a little cynical and was simply trying to tie the hands of a future Prime Minister. From a sedentary position, the noble Viscount, Lord Hailsham, said, “Well, of course, that’s what Parliaments do”.

[Lord Robathan]

Is it not the case that the Liberal Democrats wish to overturn the referendum result?

[Baroness Smith of Newnham]

My Lords, this debate is on a Motion to look at the consequences of no deal. It has been pretty clear and in almost all cases very focused. Many of us have been clear as to why we feel there should be a committee; in fact, I have heard no argument against it. The noble Lord, Lord Saatchi, seemed to suggest that the Motion did not go far enough, but were it to be asked what this House has done, surely the answer is that we have repeatedly demonstrated our concern about a no-deal Brexit, which is not in the national interest—a view that has been expressed by the other place. Now is the time to find a mechanism for us in this place to be creative about how we hold the Government to account. It is the role of Parliament to hold the Government to account. At a time of acute danger to the national interest, now is the time for us to be doing this.

It has been an extraordinary debate. The noble Lord, Lord Howell, channelled the noble Lord, Lord Owen—who is not in his place—in suggesting that we could simply stay in the EEA. Your Lordships should be prepared to be reminded by the noble Lord, Lord Callanan, that there have already been discussions and this is not on the cards.

We heard the noble Lord, Lord Adonis, quoting Boris Johnson—a Boris Johnson who was actually articulating remaining in the European Union. Of course, one of the candidates to be leader of the Conservative Party does have a tendency to change his mind on European questions, so although at the moment he is saying, “Do or die, leave on 31 October”, I will not hold my breath, because I quite fancy living beyond 31 October. We heard the noble Lord, Lord Cormack, and the noble Viscount, Lord Hailsham, expressing deep concern about the leadership campaigns in their party and, in particular, the dangers of prorogation. Stopping prorogation is not something that this House can do, but it would indeed be a constitutional outrage and it is up to your Lordships’ House and the other place to ensure that it cannot happen.

The noble Lord, Lord Robathan, said that the people have spoken, and the noble Lord, Lord Howarth, suggested we should all keep calm and carry on, but we heard about many areas of policy where the deal has not yet been sorted. We need to consider in great detail what leaving the European Union will mean and, in particular, what no deal will mean. The noble Baroness, Lady Bull, talked about the creative industries. The noble Lord, Lord Hunt, talked about the NHS. The noble Baroness, Lady McIntosh of Pickering, talked about just-in-time delivery and logistics, and my noble friend Lord Paddick talked about policing and about leaving the European arrest warrant and the Schengen Information System. There are so many areas where, if we simply leave on 31 October without a deal, this country will be in a precarious position.

It is the duty of this House to be a responsible Chamber. We may not be elected but we are responsible. Part of our duty is to scrutinise the work of government, and on this key issue of national interest we have profound reservations about the economic and political consequences of a no-deal Brexit, not only for the United Kingdom as a whole but for the unity of this United Kingdom, as the noble Lord, Lord Reid, so eloquently discussed; the noble Lord, Lord Hain, extended the implications to Northern Ireland and Wales. For all those reasons, it is vital that we take some sort of control, and setting up such a committee, or advocating to the Commons that we do so, is a matter of urgency, to respond to all the very profound questions that the noble Lord, Lord Bridges, and others raised. It is not too big a job: it is an essential job, and if it requires our working over the summer, so be it.

European Union (Withdrawal) (No. 5) Bill

Lord Robathan Excerpts

Committee: 1st sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Monday 8th April 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Howarth of Newport (Lab)]

My Lords, we should be grateful to the noble Baroness, Lady Neville-Rolfe, for her amendment and for inviting us to consider the issues she identified. Any damage our economy is experiencing at the moment is on account not of the people’s decision in the 2016 referendum but of the highly protracted process and continuing uncertainty that is paralysing economic decision-making, particularly in investment and consumer decisions. The noble Baroness is absolutely right: we need the best objective assessment available as to the damage that the continuation of this uncertainty would cause. The proponents of a long extension of Article 50 must address the question of their responsibility for the continuing economic damage that would result.

[Lord Robathan (Con)]

My Lords, in rising to support my noble friend, I am somewhat confused because this is a Private Member’s Bill that was absolutely pushed by the noble Baroness, Lady Hayter, who is not here today, from the Labour Front Bench only on Thursday. It was then taken forward by the noble Lord, Lord Rooker, who is not here today, and now it is being taken forward by the noble Lord, Lord Robertson. I am sure that that is all normal, but this is a huge constitutional step which seems to have, as my noble friend Lord Forsyth said, no parents. This is a very important step and we seem to be drifting into it without any considered thought at all.

[Lord Adonis (Lab)]

My Lords, what has just been demonstrated is that the Bill has many parents and very wide support across the House. The point made by the noble Lord, Lord Pannick, is completely conclusive. It is for the House of Commons to decide what the date should be. The Commons have invited us to give them this power, and I think that we should get on with it.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Robathan]

Does this not reveal the chaos of the current procedure?

[Lord Pannick]

My Lords, I will do whatever the Chief Whip thinks is most appropriate in these circumstances, as I always do.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Goldsmith]

My Lords, this has been a difficult matter to determine, but the priority as I see it remains ensuring that this can be done in time. That is the concern. I do not want to be disagreeable at this point in the debate, but we all know that the Prime Minister knew last December that the deal that she had done would not pass, but we find ourselves at the very last stages having to deal with the possibilities of what happens if she cannot reach an agreement.

The affirmative procedure gives rise to the concern that the matter will have to return, perhaps on Friday: it depends what time the European Council meeting finishes. We have already destroyed the recess for many people, and that would destroy the weekend as well. Although we on these Benches are normally strongly in favour of affirmative resolutions, on this occasion we see the force of what is in the Bill.

[Lord Robathan]

What confuses me is that the noble and learned Lord appears to be answering on the Bill, which is a Private Member’s Bill sponsored by the noble Lord, Lord Robertson. He appears to be answering for the Opposition, so is this an opposition Bill or a Private Member’s Bill?

[Lord Goldsmith]

The noble Lord should know that on any amendment or Bill in this House, the Government and the official Opposition will have a view, and we seek to help noble Lords by providing that view. That is exactly what is happening here.

European Union (Withdrawal) (No. 5) Bill

Lord Robathan Excerpts

2nd reading (Hansard): House of Lords
Thursday 4th April 2019 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Ludford (LD)]

My Lords, I support the Bill and I thank the noble Lord, Lord Rooker, for taking up the mantle of introducing it in this House. I also thank Members of the other place, the right honourable Yvette Cooper and the right honourable Sir Oliver Letwin. I was distressed to hear the attacks being made by Members on the Benches opposite on Sir Oliver Letwin because, as far as I am concerned, these colleagues of ours in the other place are doing a great public service.

We need this Bill as an insurance policy against a no-deal Brexit. Even though the Prime Minister has said that she intends to seek a longer extension, it is essential to give the House of Commons a role in that process; namely, mandating the Government and ensuring the accountability of the Government to the House of Commons so that it can take proper control of the process, which is what has been wanted by all sides over the past three years. We should not be in a situation where this country slips off the cliff edge of no deal either through intent or by accident. I am afraid that the Prime Minister has blown hot and cold on no deal, so there is an issue as regards the confidence and indeed the trust that we can have that the policy will not flip-flop. We also need to ensure that the Prime Minister goes on pursuing a straight course.

The impact of no deal would be very severe. We have heard that from the CBI, the TUC and from the Cabinet Secretary, Sir Mark Sedwill. We have heard about a 10% increase in food prices, a possible recession, customs delays and bankruptcies among businesses.

[Lord Robathan (Con)]

My Lords, are these not the same people who warned us, when we voted three years ago, that pandemonium would break out? Further, are not some of them, like the CBI, the same people who said that we must join the euro—and continue to say that as well?

[Baroness Ludford]

I think that the noble Lord is somewhat out of date. There has been a serious impact on the economy. As a result of the Brexit vote, we have lost around 2.5% of GDP, even though we are still in the EU. We are down by around £600 million a week.

As I was saying, there are already shortages of medicines, and that will get worse. The noble Lord, Lord Lilley, who is not with us now, suggested in a debate we had a couple of weeks ago that I was wrong to draw attention to the problem of people not getting essential medicines. These stories continue to appear, and they are very real. The NHS has not stockpiled everything because some medicines such as short-life isotopes cannot be stockpiled. It is therefore irresponsible to contemplate no deal. There would also be effects on our security and on Northern Ireland—the noble Lord, Lord Hain, has talked about the issues as regards the Northern Ireland border and possible direct rule.

Last night, Mr Mark Francois MP said in the other place that the Bill is a “constitutional outrage”, a phrase which was echoed by some speakers to the amendments to the Business Motion this afternoon. What in my opinion would be a constitutional, political, economic and social outrage would be for a Government, any Government, knowingly to inflict avoidable damage on their own citizens through a catastrophic and damaging crash-out from the European Union; hence the need to make sure we avoid a no-deal situation. This Bill assists in that process.

European Union (Withdrawal) Act 2018 (Exit Day) (Amendment) Regulations 2019

Lord Robathan Excerpts

Wednesday 27th March 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Robathan (Con)]

My Lords, the noble Baroness, Lady Hayter, will be horrified to discover that I agree with a great deal of what she has said. I will not support her amendment because I do not agree with the last clause, but no one in this House could think that things are going well. Perhaps somebody does, but I do not think so. We have a Government who, frankly, are in chaos—I say so to my Front Bench—a Parliament in disarray and, regrettably, a Prime Minister who appears to have lost the support of her Cabinet, her party, the Commons and, I fear, the people. For me this is a very sad day, because I had always hoped to support a Conservative Government.

This SI, as we know, enacts something that has been imposed upon us by the European Commission, Herr Juncker and Monsieur Barnier. I would think everyone feels some sadness over this, whatever position they take; Parliament passed the Withdrawal Act—it was fiercely contested, but agreed—and now it is dismissed by the Council by diktat. I find that worrying, and it should be understood that that is why people like me wish to see the supremacy of UK law restored.

This legislation seems to me somewhat dishonest. Let me explain why. I have not counted, but the Prime Minister is alleged to have said in Parliament 108 times that we are leaving on 29 March. That is this Friday. One has to ask—again, this is not a matter for joy on any side of the House—whether anyone will trust anything she says again. Frankly, that extrapolates very quickly into trust in politicians being at the all-time lowest I have seen in my lifetime. Those who support this SI should know that people will see it as evidence that you cannot trust Parliament, you cannot trust politicians and you cannot trust the Prime Minister—and I find that very worrying. I could trust Tony Blair.

Many in this House may imagine—some smugly, perhaps—that this will lead to our cancelling Brexit and staying in the EU. Again, I say that this will undermine the trust of the British people. Those who think that must understand the damage being done to our political system and to trust in Parliament. We have gone beyond a simple matter of disagreeing, frayed tempers and civil discussion while we disagree into hate speak. Vitriol has been released into the body politic. We no longer disagree civilly; people argue in such a way that I think some have been driven mad on both sides. It is not civil disagreement when someone smashes an egg on Jeremy Corbyn’s head; it is going much too far, as the magistrate found. I understand that Michael Gove’s wife was told by someone at the weekend that they hoped her husband would drop dead within 100 yards. This is lunatic. Where are we going? And I fear it may get worse.

Parliament made a promise. I believe that referendums are a terrible idea but Parliament promised that it would enact the decision of the British people. I am glad to say that I was not here to vote for the referendum Act in 2015, but I was able to support leave in 2016, although I still thought the referendum a bad idea. We, collectively, as a Parliament—as a political class, if you like—made a promise to accept the decision of the British people. Now, today, we are backsliding. I fear we shall not be forgiven by a great many people outside here and I fear for the future—I really do.

I have no idea what will happen and I shall not predict. It is very unwise if one does. We should not imagine or pretend, however, that Parliament or the Government come out of this well. I fear it will be a long time before that trust between Parliament and the people, and trust in the Government, is restored—if indeed it ever is. If noble Members do not believe me, they should go down the Corridor and speak to MPs—Labour, Conservative and Lib Dem—and hear what their constituents are saying. They are losing faith, if I may put it that way.

I agree with so much that the noble Baroness, Lady Hayter, said that I hope, for once, we can come together on this, although not on her amendment. I will oppose it but I will not support the government SI, should it go to a Division. It breaks faith with the British electorate and those who believed what the Prime Minister has said more than 100 times.

[Lord Hannay of Chiswick (CB)]

My Lords, I was a signatory to the amendment to the then European Union (Withdrawal) Bill 2018 that would have avoided the Government being in this predicament today, but I will not go on at any great length about that. The noble Baroness, Lady Hayter, and the noble Duke, the Duke of Wellington, have explained the history very well. It is perfectly clear that we—and, above all, the Government and the Minister—would be in a better place today if that amendment had not been overturned in the Commons. But it was and now we are busy repeating the exercise. I take some comfort, however, from the noble Lord, Lord Callanan, having confirmed that there is nothing in the statutory instrument that prevents our doing the whole thing again if 11, 12 or 22 May turn out to be the unicorns that 29 March turned out to be. It is a very odd and unsatisfactory way of proceeding but I would support the statutory instrument.

On the rather bizarre discussion that went on in the other place about whether domestic law was overruled by international law, I entirely concur with the point made by the noble Baroness, Lady Ludford: it is not international law that is overruling, it is European Union law, because we are still a member of the European Union, and the statutory instrument is prolonging that. I say only that the Minister and anyone else who wishes that we had left on 29 March had better get used to this, because if the Prime Minister’s deal goes through—not all that likely, perhaps, but possible—rulings of the European Court of Justice will be directly applicable in this country until December 2020. They will overrule domestic law. So we had better get used to it, and we had better get used to describing it properly as it is: part of our treaty obligations as a member of the European Union.

The amendment in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Hayter, is a masterly understatement of the damage that has been done. There is no reference to the large sums of public money which have been spent preparing for the eventuality that no deal was better than a bad deal, which has proved to be just about the most useless piece of negotiating capital that has ever been used—a real piece of damp spaghetti. That is sad. I therefore support her amendment.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Adonis]

The comments we have heard from noble Lords on the Conservative Benches over the past half-hour demonstrate the reason why that once great party is in the position it is in at the moment. It has not come to terms with the basic problem, which is Brexit itself. Brexit has now destroyed two Prime Ministers in a row. It has virtually destroyed this Government. It has proved to be a totally unviable policy. The best advice I can offer, with great humility, to the next Prime Minister is: do not proceed with Brexit or it will destroy you too, because the recriminations have started. They always start in situations such as this. We have had speeches about betrayal and claims that somehow Brexit, which was begun by this Government, was somehow inflicted upon us by the European Union. This is all delusional. Until we cease the delusions, we will not be able to get things right for the country.

What is the right way of describing what has happened? It was not possible to negotiate a Brexit deal that met the promises that were made in the referendum campaign three years ago. That was not because of the actions of people like me—it turns out that the noble Lord thinks we are somehow responsible for the fact that Brexit did not work—but because of the nature of the Brexit proposition. It was not possible to leave the club and keep all the benefits. That was the fundamental delusion and the lie that was told to the British people.

The great unravelling is starting. I suspect that the recriminations we have heard this afternoon will be just the beginning of what will happen for a long period. It is extremely sad for the country—I understand that—but the conclusion which I draw, and which I believe the House will draw in time, is that the best way of dealing with this is not to proceed with Brexit but to be honest with the country that this is not a project that could be taken forward with advantage.

[Lord Robathan]

My Lords—

[Lord Adonis]

The noble Lord has made a speech. Will he at least allow me to finish my remarks? Then, I will happily give way to him.

The right thing for Parliament to do in this situation is to put its wisdom at the disposal of the nation, which is our job, and, now we can see the fruits of Brexit and the situation we are now in as a country, put it back to the people in a referendum giving them the option to remain. This is not a complicated situation; this is a simple situation. I am well aware that the recriminations will carry on for a long period. Indeed, I think that will inevitably be the case because the damage that has been inflicted on the country by this process is very great. Our job now is to seek to move forward, and in the crisis situation we now confront, where the second Prime Minister in a row has been brought down by a policy which has simply proved impossible to implement, the right thing for us to do is to call a halt to this national nightmare, hold another referendum and give the British people the opportunity to put a stop to Brexit.

[Lord Robathan]

Before the noble Lord sits down, I believe I am right in saying that he was elected to Oxford city council or district council at one stage. I fought many elections, as did many noble Lords. We were held accountable by our electors for what we had said. It does not matter what side one is on, one is held accountable for that which one has said. What is happening now is that what people said in the referendum campaign and since, and what was promised, is being stood on its head.

Brexit: No-deal Preparations

Lord Robathan Excerpts

Wednesday 20th March 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Callanan]

It is difficult for me to comment on rumours on the internet or on Twitter. I would be surprised if that was the case, but any EU member state can veto an extension and if one does, as I have said, the legal position under Article 50, as voted for by Parliament, and under the EU withdrawal Act, voted for by this Parliament, is that we would leave on 29 June.

[Lord Robathan (Con)]

My Lords, the House of Commons has twice rejected the Prime Minister’s deal, so it obviously thinks the deal is a bad deal. Does it remain the case, as it says in the Conservative manifesto, which is not yet two years old, that no deal is better than a bad deal?

[Lord Callanan]

We do not believe that our deal is a bad deal. We think it is a good deal, and we continue to hope that the House of Commons will agree to it.

Further Developments in Discussions with the European Union under Article 50 of the Treaty on European Union

Lord Robathan Excerpts

Monday 11th March 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Newby]

He does. He may not have been listening, but I have said that, if the people decided in a further referendum that they wished to leave the EU, we would respect that decision. Would we go through the Lobbies with anything other than a very heavy heart? No, we would not. If we had another referendum and the people decided that the Prime Minister’s deal made the country better off, I would still not believe that to be the case. I would respect the decision, but that does not mean that I would suddenly say, “Oh, my word—for three years I have been mistaken”. The noble Lord knows that for a Liberal Democrat to lose a vote is not a totally new experience. If I lose another vote, it will not be new to me, but it will not mean that I stop thinking what I thought the day before I lost the vote—any more than the noble Lord, who has sometimes stood for Governments who have not prevailed, has stopped thinking that the Labour Party should remain in government. That is the nature of politics as I understand it.

We know now that the vast majority of young people believe that to leave the EU would be a bad mistake because it is bad for their future. We know that the majority of Labour voters, and the majority of voters in virtually every constituency, are in favour of having a vote and in favour on that basis of then remaining in the EU. If the Minister and the Government Front Bench are so sure that their deal is a good one, what are they worried about? Let us have a vote. Get on with it. We have had previous elections, as the noble Lord knows—

[Lord Robathan (Con)]

The noble Lord is being very honest about his position, and I respect that. Will he tell the House what question he would prefer to be put in the second referendum that he wishes to hold in order to overturn the first one?

[Lord Newby]

The logical question. The Government have a deal which they say is in the best interests of the country. We do not believe that it is in the best interests of the country. That is the logical choice to make. I suspect that there will be debates on exactly what the nature of the vote is, but that is the logical vote to have. The noble Lord believes that the Government’s deal is in the best interests of the country. Is that not the logical thing to ask the country about? I think it is.

We have heard much about the will of the people. It is now time for the Government to respect it and give them a vote.

Further Discussions with the European Union under Article 50 of the Treaty on European Union

Lord Robathan Excerpts

Wednesday 27th February 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Callanan]

I am afraid that I do not follow the noble Lord’s logic on this. Parliament did support the outcome of the referendum. The Government made it clear at the time that they would abide by the result and spent £9 million putting a leaflet into every house in the country saying, “It’s your decision—we will respect the outcome”. Parliament then voted for the notification of withdrawal Bill, which gave notification of our intention to leave the European Union. Parliament then confirmed our exit date in the EU withdrawal Bill, passed in the summer. So it is not true that Parliament has not supported the result of the referendum.

[Lord Robathan (Con)]

I am sorry to interrupt my noble friend again. Has he seen the demonstration—unusually, by people supporting leave—outside the Palace of Westminster today, with placards saying, “Parliament versus the People”? Does the Minister consider, given what he has just said, that this might give resonance to the terrible shame of this country, and indeed to the detriment of its democracy?

[Lord Callanan]

I have not seen any particular demonstration; I do not take an awful lot of notice of them. There seem to be people from all sides shouting at all of us as we walk in. I often wonder why they think that it will make a difference if they shout loudly “Stop Brexit” every five minutes—that somehow we are all going to have a flash of inspiration and suddenly change our minds. The wider point, however, is that the votes of 17.4 million people should be respected. It was the largest democratic vote in the history of this country. We said that we would respect the outcome of the referendum, and this Government are committed to doing that, even though many noble Lords are not so committed. Perhaps we have another one here now.