Post Office (Horizon System) Offences Bill

Lord Sahota Excerpts

2nd reading
Monday 13th May 2024 Lords Chamber

[Lord Sahota (Lab)]

My comments are, as we say in politics, from the grass roots about what some postmasters are saying and their feelings. As for the legal matters of this case, I leave it to your Lordships’ great legal minds.

I wholeheartedly support this Bill. It is long overdue, and the sooner we get it on the statute book, the better. The sub-postmasters have suffered long enough. The sooner we close this shameful chapter in our Post Office history, the better. This Bill must give faith to all those who have lost theirs in our justice system and in the Post Office management. Most important of all, I hope the end result of this Bill will satisfy all the sub-postmasters and that they will be properly compensated for their suffering.

I fully support the blanket quashing of their convictions or any other wrongdoing they are accused of, wherever the Post Office acted as judge, jury and executioner. Let me make it quite plain from the outset that my heart goes out to each and every one of the victims of this scandal, whatever their background and whichever community they belong to. This is one of the greatest miscarriages of justice in the history of our country.

Although all sub-postmasters were treated badly, some were subjected to extra layers of suffering. I bring to noble Lords’ attention in particular the victims who had an Asian heritage or background, although my concern is equally applicable to those from African and Caribbean backgrounds as well. This issue was reported on “Newsnight” around Christmas time by Sima Kotecha, one of its journalists. According to a Post Office survey in 2012, over 40% of the sub-postmasters in the UK were from an Asian background. Personally, I think that it could be more than that. They run the post offices not only in inner cities where there are large ethnic-minority populations but in small villages up and down the country.

When the news of this miscarriage of justice began to break over 20 years ago in local media and on social media, Asian sub-postmasters were the hardest hit, for two reasons. First, it was alleged that the Post Office officials investigating them treated them with racial malice and disdain. Their comments, which are in the public domain, include, “All you foreigners are the same—money grabbers—stealing money from the Post Office and sending it to your own country”. It was reported that they were often spoken to with condescending language and in a different tone. Secondly, there is the importance of shame and family reputation in the Asian community. Every culture and society is perceptive to social shame, but because of the closeness of the Asian society, it is more keenly felt by them. To understand it, you have to be Asian and of a certain age—like me.

Some of these Asians came to the UK with nothing, and out of their sheer hard work they built a comfortable lifestyle for themselves and their families. It is a well-known fact that some Asians work hard not for themselves but to leave behind something for their children, so that they would not have to go through all the same problems again. When they are falsely accused of being thieves, that is the deepest cut of all in the community. They try to hide not just from their community but from themselves. Worst of all is what their children and grandchildren think of them.

It is no wonder that some of the sub-postmasters suffered mental breakdowns and tried to commit suicide. Take the case of Jess Kaur, from the West Midlands, and the ordeal that the Post Office put her through. I have spoken with her a number of times. She had 14 electric shock treatments. When she was in hospital for her treatment, the Post Office did not believe her, so it sent its own doctor to verify her condition. How low can you get? We all pray to God that Jess will recover from her terrible ordeal soon.

Another Asian lady, Rubbina Shaheen, from Shropshire, my home county, lost everything—her business and her home—and was forced to live in a van on the streets of Shrewsbury. She said that she felt suicidal. Another Asian lady, Seema Misra, from London, was sent to jail while pregnant. Mrs Kashmir Kaur Gill, from Oxford, was prosecuted in 2009 for false accounting and was given a five-year suspended sentence. Her reputation and that of her family was destroyed in the community. She suffered decades of hell and developed a mental health problem. I could go on and on with these examples.

On Asian suffering, I do not think that the famous ITV drama that we all know even scratched the surface of this race and cultural issue. I hope that the Bill will acknowledge these particular issues. As I said earlier, my heart goes out to all the sub-postmasters, irrespective of their background.

Finally, it is my personal view that although all the Post Office senior managers, directors, chief executives and solicitors, and software company managers and directors—who went above and beyond the call of duty to protect the Post Office brand and their jobs and did not care about the human suffering—have apologised, as have all who have been giving evidence to the Williams inquiry and to Parliament, apologies are just words in the wind. There should be some kind of financial sanction on them. That I leave to your Lordships, with thanks for letting me make these comments.

National Minimum Wage Legislation

Lord Sahota Excerpts

Thursday 21st March 2024 Lords Chamber

Asked by

[Lord Sahota]

To ask His Majesty’s Government what steps they are taking to improve the enforcement of national minimum wage legislation.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Business and Trade (Lord Offord of Garvel) (Con)]

My Lords, the Government take enforcing the minimum wage extremely seriously. We are clear that anyone entitled to be paid the minimum wage should receive it. Robust enforcement action is taken against employers who do not pay their staff correctly. Since the introduction of the national minimum wage in 1999, the Government have overseen the repayment of more than £173 million to 1.4 million workers, issued nearly £86 million in financial penalties and completed more than 87,000 investigations.

[Lord Sahota (Lab)]

I thank the Minister. The International Labour Organization recommends that there should be one inspector for every 10,000 workers to check that employees are being paid the minimum wage. The UK ratio is 0.4% for every 10,000 workers; that way, UK employers can expect an inspection every 500 years. That is not good enough. You only have to talk to overseas students and workers in minority communities to see how widespread the problem is. In order to stop paying the minimum wage to some employees, employers make them work 20 hours, but on the books they are paying them for only 10 hours—this is one way they get round it. We need stronger and tougher sanctions against rogue employers, so we can get on with it.

[Lord Offord of Garvel (Con)]

The Government remain totally committed to the effective enforcement of employment rights and provide a lot of funding, including over £35 million this year to the existing dedicated labour market enforcement bodies. That is a 121% increase in funding since 2010, so a lot of money has gone into this area. On top of that, we provide funding of over £50 million per annum to ACAS, to support employment tribunals. We have had great success in reducing the number of companies not paying the national minimum wage.

Horizon Scandal: Psychological Support Services

Lord Sahota Excerpts

Monday 4th March 2024 Lords Chamber

[Lord Offord of Garvel (Con)]

I thank the noble Lord for that question. As I have said before from the Dispatch Box, there is help available as part of the compensation schemes for the claimants, to put their claims together and get access to lawyers and healthcare. As I said, 78% of claims have been settled. We are now dealing with the most difficult claims. In the meantime, there is a statutory inquiry going ahead, which will get to the bottom of this, and we will understand the full extent of how this sorry saga came about.

[Lord Sahota (Lab)]

My Lords, I am sorry to hear the Minister say that there is no help available for mental health issues. These are the facts on the ground; I have spoken to quite a few Asian sub-postmasters, and they all said they have had some form of mental health issue—either them or their families. The reason they do not come out is because mental health has a stigma attached to it; this is why they are not talking about it. I humbly ask the Government to look into this issue, especially among Asian sub-postmasters, who do not want even to talk about it—yet they do have a problem, and quite a few of them admitted it to me.

[Lord Offord of Garvel (Con)]

I thank the noble Lord. He has detailed knowledge of his community, who serve us all so well, and who have suffered, in some cases, some terrible racism as well. The point we have to make is a communication issue. There is absolutely no stigma to this whatever; people who have been through this trauma have undoubtedly been harmed, and we must encourage everyone in our communities, wherever they are, to come forward with a claim.

Post Office Horizon Scandal: Racism

Lord Sahota Excerpts

Monday 19th February 2024 Lords Chamber

Asked by

[Lord Sahota]

To ask His Majesty’s Government what assessment they have made of the reports from sub-postmasters involved in the Post Office Horizon scandal that racism affected the way they were treated by the Post Office.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Business and Trade and Scotland Office (Lord Offord of Garvel) (Con)]

I thank the noble Lord for his Question. Some of the evidence that has been brought to light through Sir Wyn Williams’s inquiry has been appalling and regrettable. The Government are committed to ensuring that lessons are learned and events are never repeated, but it is important that Sir Wyn is given the time and independence he needs to draw conclusions and report to Ministers on his findings.

[Lord Sahota (Lab)]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for that Answer. My heart goes out to all the sub-postmasters, whatever community they belong to, who were victims of this miscarriage of justice. I thank Balvinder Gill, who is in the Public Gallery and who has been through a horrendous experience, along with his mother. Just like Balvinder’s mother, many victims were hard-working, first-generation immigrants, who had accumulated wealth and had a good status in the community. They generally did not have a full grasp of the English language and were treated like second-class citizens by the Post Office. As the Minister will know, over 40% of sub-postmasters were from minority communities. Why was such a high percentage of Asian females prosecuted by the Post Office when, in reality, the prison population of Asian females is less than 5%?

[Lord Offord of Garvel (Con)]

I thank the noble Lord. We are all deeply distressed by the events that have happened during this 25-year sorry saga. The noble Lord refers to one of the documents that was used by Post Office Ltd, which was released in 2023 under the Freedom of Information Act. That did have language in it using descriptors that were very much out of date and should have been updated; it was offensive language and the Post Office has now, rightly, completely changed its methodology. But, once again, Sir Wyn Williams will go into this in great detail.

Post Office Horizon Scandal: Compensation Payments

Lord Sahota Excerpts

Monday 19th February 2024 Lords Chamber

[Lord Offord of Garvel (Con)]

That is absolutely the case, and my colleague in the other place, Minister Hollinrake, has made it very clear that we will pursue Fujitsu for its share of the compensation. It is not right that the sole payer of the compensation should be the taxpayer.

[Lord Sahota (Lab)]

My Lords, what is the government advice to the postmasters who, due to their experience, have developed mental health problems, and received all kinds of electric shocks and so on, and are unable to work?

[Lord Offord of Garvel (Con)]

The government advice is that each individual claimant must submit his or her claim, and money is available to them to take legal and medical advice. That is part of the reason why we think that, of the 477 cases, we have 58 claims—because they are more complicated—quite rightly being put together by each claimant and their advisers. When these claims are submitted, we have guaranteed that we will action 90% of them within 40 days of receipt.

Baby-changing Facilities

Lord Sahota Excerpts

Tuesday 6th June 2023 Lords Chamber

[The Earl of Minto (Con)]

My Lords, I entirely agree. In fact, my role is about regulation and reducing the amount of it. We should all agree that, by reducing regulation, business becomes easier and more productive, everybody’s salaries improve and there are increased job opportunities.

[Lord Sahota (Lab)]

My Lords, I declare an interest: my wife runs a leased café in Telford. When I am not in your Lordships’ House, I help her out. I totally agree with baby-changing facilities but there should also be a public convenience because, since the severe cuts to public authority budgets in 2010, we have been short of public conveniences up and down the country. I know this for a fact because people come running into my wife’s café looking for a public convenience. There should be one funded by the local authority. I hope that the Minister agrees with me.

[The Earl of Minto (Con)]

My Lords, I do. Most shopping centres now provide not only a full range of toilet facilities but baby-changing facilities too; that is absolutely right and proper. The planning law is operating correctly. On levelling up, £30 million has been set aside for precisely what the noble Lord wants. I am sure that we will continue to move towards a more available service.