Scotland Bill
Debate between Lord Shipley and Baroness Quin(8 years, 3 months ago)
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Baroness Quin
Amendments 73B and 73C are in my name. I am glad there is cross-party support for Amendment 73C from the noble Lord, Lord Shipley, the noble Viscount, Lord Ridley, and the noble Lord, Lord Curry of Kirkharle, whom I am pleased to see in his place. Indeed, the noble Lord, Lord Shipley, has also co-signed Amendment 73B.
Both amendments have been tabled to highlight the issues in the Bill which have implications, and possible implications, for the rest of the United Kingdom. In particular, Amendment 73B refers to the areas bordering Scotland—the north-east of England and Cumbria. Amendment 73C asks for a report from Ministers within a year of the passing of the Act, and an impact assessment of its measures on the areas adjoining Scotland. In particular, it seeks an impact assessment of Parts 2 to 5.
Amendment 73B stresses the importance in implementing the Bill of having regard to the need to help promote the political and economic well-being of the UK as a whole. Many of us are very happy that the referendum result was a strong no, but people in Scotland voted to maintain the United Kingdom in its present geographical form because they wanted to see a successful UK in the future. A commitment to ensure the success of the UK as a whole is therefore important, as well as delivering on the Smith commission and the specific devolution proposals which the Bill contains.
When I tabled these amendments, I had not realised that so many of today’s debates would in effect be about them. Many of the debates have been about not only respecting devolution but looking at ways of strengthening the UK as a whole. We had an interesting debate about the future of the British Transport Police. Whatever comes out at the end of this process, I think we would all agree that we need a system which ensures that there is effective policing of our transport network, including on cross-border trains. I say that with some feeling, given that every train I travel on to get from my home in Northumberland to this House is a cross-border train. I certainly want to see the highest safety standards on those trains. Similarly, I would like us to commit ourselves to ensuring that the UK as a whole is successful and, as far as we can, to ensuring its overall political and economic harmony.
When I spoke at Second Reading I said that I supported the Bill, and I do. These amendments, which are probing, do not seek to damage the Bill but arise from the concern we have expressed about the need to promote economic and social solidarity across the UK. A lot of today’s discussion has been about the Smith commission and the extent to which it is set in stone. These amendments do not contradict the commission in any way, but they add to the requirements on Ministers regarding the UK as a whole. They would require that the need to improve the union of the UK is adhered to.
We are all influenced by our backgrounds and our ties with particular parts of the UK and, not surprisingly, as a north-easterner I am keen to see that the north-east prospers in the future. It has had a lot of economic upheaval in the past and has been very innovative in recent years, but it certainly needs to improve economically. I would not want any Bill before Parliament to result in worsening the position of one of the UK’s poorer regions, so I do not apologise at all for tabling an amendment which is very much related to the north-east and Cumbria.
There were concerns in the north-east at the prospect of a yes vote in the referendum—concerns about what having an international border on our doorstep would mean for us, given the uncertainties about currency and immigration controls, for example. The two countries might have very different immigration policies. There were also concerns about people crossing the border each day for work—in both directions—and people wanting to access health services on either side of the border. Given the outcome of the referendum, we should certainly make a strong commitment to ensuring that people on both sides of the border have access to the facilities and services they need, and that those facilities and services are of a high standard.
Later in our proceedings we will be looking at air passenger duty, but here I will raise one transport issue that is of concern to people on both sides of the border and seems to me a prime candidate for a cross-border project which would help people on both sides of the border: the improvement of the A1 between Newcastle and Edinburgh. When driving last week up to Haddington in East Lothian, I was again very much aware that north of Morpeth almost until you get to Edinburgh, the road is a mixture of dual and single carriageway. That possibly explains why so many of the accidents on that road have been head-on collisions—because people get confused about whether they are on a dual section of the A1 or a single section. The road is, ironically, entitled the Great North Road, but it is anything but that in its present state. What we do not want to see as a result of devolution is less prosperous areas of the UK losing out further, and we need to make a conscious commitment to avoid that happening. That will involve lots of practical measures.
The amendments might seem rather sweeping, but many different issues could be encompassed within them. Earlier, the noble and learned Lord, Lord Wallace of Tankerness, talked about the tribunal system and the usefulness of being able to transfer tribunals from one part of the UK to another in order to avoid backlogs. That seemed to me a small but rather important example of how we should ensure that the UK works better as result of what we are doing.
I would like the Government, in responding, to say two things. First, how do they intend to ensure that the UK will work more successfully in future? In particular, what cross-border projects are they in favour of to ensure that there is some enthusiasm across the border about improving roads, infrastructure and other facilities on which people on both sides of the border rely? I certainly hope that the Government will look sympathetically at the spirit of these amendments, and I look forward to the Minister’s reply.
Lord Shipley (LD)
My Lords, I rise to speak in support of Amendments 73B and 73C, to which my name is attached. I agree with the noble Baroness, Lady Quin, that the Bill concerns the whole of the United Kingdom and not just Scotland. It has to be considered not just from the perspective of the two Governments—the Scottish Government and the UK Government—but from the perspective of the people living in those parts of the United Kingdom that share a border with Scotland.
Although I support strongly the principles behind the Bill and welcome the proposals to devolve powers, responsibilities and further tax-raising capabilities to Scotland, I am very aware that the level of public spending on Scotland is significantly higher per capita in Scotland than it is in the north of England. To give the figures from the latest year for which they are available, in 2014-15 in the north-east of England the total identifiable expenditure on services per head was £9,347, in the north-west of England it was £9,197, in Yorkshire and the Humber it was £8,660, but in Scotland it was £10,374. These are very different levels of per capita spending, and they need to be explained so that the general public understands the basis for them. I look forward to seeing and considering the fiscal framework when it is published shortly, which I hope will explain these differences. We will then see what impact any changes will have on the operation of the Barnett formula and how far the Scottish Government will need to use their powers over income tax to pay for better public services, where they decide to have them, than are available in the rest of the UK.
The two amendments, Amendments 73B and 73C, reflect this problem. The UK and Scottish Governments should not proceed by disregarding the impact of the fiscal settlement on the rest of the United Kingdom. I hope that both Governments will understand the need for the whole of the UK to be strengthened, not just one part at the expense of another. In that respect, it is very important, as the noble Baroness, Lady Quin, explained, for there to be a report by both Governments on the actual impact on the areas south of the border. I hope that the Minister will recommend that it should become an annual statement, as it would aid public understanding of the devolution agreement.
Durham, Gateshead, Newcastle Upon Tyne, North Tyneside, Northumberland, South Tyneside and Sunderland Combined Authority Order 2014
Debate between Lord Shipley and Baroness Quin
Lord Shipley (LD)
My Lords, I, too, strongly welcome the draft order. I agree with every word that we have heard from both the Minister and the noble Lord, Lord Adonis. It is a tribute to the noble Lord’s leadership—this was one of the five key recommendations that arose from the north-east economic review—that we are in the position that we are today. There has been a lot of discussion on the way, and I hope that discussion is now at an end; as the noble Lord has said, the combined authority is a means to an end. It has to achieve real outcomes, and for that it has to work with a clear understanding of its remit, with clear joint working with the local enterprise partnership and with the support of all parts of the north-east combined authority area, both rural and urban.
I thank the Minister for what she said and particularly for having issued guidance on the issue of transparency and membership, following the discussion that we had about greater Merseyside, West Yorkshire and Yorkshire. I am particularly pleased about the specific draft order because it represents another step in the gathering pace of devolution and decentralisation in England, and because combined authorities provide a structure within which that devolution and decentralisation can be achieved. There are now several combined authorities in place deriving from the legislation of 2009, and I am really very pleased that that has been achieved. It is very welcome because, as so many local authorities now realise, sharing power can drive faster and more sustained growth, both in the functional economic area that they are part of and in their own council area.
I shall not repeat here some of the things that I said about greater Merseyside, West Yorkshire and South Yorkshire, except to say this: I think it will be important for this combined authority to demonstrate clearly its capacity to cover rural as well as urban issues, to work very closely alongside the LEP and to include opposition political parties at every level in what must be an open decision-making structure. This is because we know that councils working together will achieve more than if they just compete with each other. Investment and risk can be shared and co-ordination can be more effective.
More broadly, I have every confidence that combined authorities will prove a success in taking on greater powers. That leads me to suggest two ways in which further devolution might start to be considered.
First, once they are working effectively, the next step for combined authorities might be to secure London-style powers in transport and strategic planning, among other areas. It is hard to see why London should have a different set of powers from other cities or why the combined authorities may have slightly different powers and responsibilities from each other. The right way forward seems to be to move towards a common approach.
Secondly, other major natural sub-regions do not have a combined authority and could benefit from having one, or at least a more formal structure for collaboration. I hope that the Government will now encourage this as we move on from the combined authority orders that we have had in recent weeks.
I will make one final, important point. In all that I have said, the role of the local enterprise partnerships will be essential to the success of the combined authorities. They must have a clear strategic purpose and a clear leadership role, and they must remain at the heart of delivering economic growth in their areas.
As in Greater Manchester, the LEP and the combined authority each has a key role to play in driving jobs and growth. The same can be true in the other combined authorities, in particular in this one, and I wish it every success. As the noble Lord, Lord Adonis, made absolutely clear, a combined authority as a structure is a means to an end, but not the end in itself.
Baroness Quin (Lab)
My Lords, I, too, believe that what we are considering today is a very significant and welcome development, and echo the comments that were made on this by both previous speakers.
This combined authority brings together authorities of a distinctive part of the country, which have a common heritage. In many ways it is the core of the north-east and, if we go back even further, of the kingdom of Northumbria, although that covered a much wider area. It has a very strong industrial vocation, which it has had since the beginning of the Industrial Revolution, and still has a manufacturing and industrial vocation today, as well as many of the related skills of those sectors. Certainly the area covered has an economic coherence, which is important when we are talking about a combined authority, one of the main objectives of which is to be the promotion of economic development.
This move can also be very significant as regards transport, which was mentioned by my noble friend Lord Adonis. To pick up on a point made by the noble Lord, Lord Shipley, it is good that in the combined authority we are bringing together urban and rural areas, particularly on transport issues. The authority will be able to make a success of bringing closer to the Tyne and Wear conurbation, through transport infrastructure, what we think of as the outlying areas of the old Durham and Northumberland coalfields, which are perhaps not classically rural, but which have become semi-rural today. There is a real need for people there to be able to access easily and successfully the conurbation itself.
The authority is an excellent basis for co-operation with the economic forces within the area. Certainly the authorities concerned are used to working with both industry and representatives of employees’ trade unions. It was the area where the regional development agency was the most successful and where good relationships, despite the change, have already been established with the LEP to try to promote the economic development of the area as positively as possible.
I very much echo what my noble friend Lord Adonis said about the excellence of universities in the area concerned. Again, they have a tradition of working together and of working with the wider community, in particular as regards research and development, looking for advantages for the local and regional economy as well as the wider economy.
I, too, echo what was said about the welcome investment we have seen, particularly the recent announcement about Hitachi. My only slight reservation here is that while I am delighted that Japanese investors have seen the potential of the north-east, I still urge British investors to look closely at the region, perhaps more than they have done. There is still a bit of a psychological north-south gap in that respect. It always seems to me that British investors do not fully appreciate what a great place the north-east is in which to live and work, and the fact that it has a positive trade balance and great economic assets and potential which need to be exploited.
I am glad that the council with which I have been most associated in my career, Gateshead Council, is a key part of this organisation. I always like to pay tribute to it at every possible opportunity; I happen to think that it is the best council in Britain. It has a proud record as a public entrepreneur, working with private industry and being very outward-looking in order to promote the regeneration of the region. I believe that the combined authority, too, will be able to work alongside the private sector and make a very successful public/private partnership. Very often, we see these two things as opposites, but I know from my experience that it makes huge sense for these sectors to work closely together for the future benefit of the region.
I conclude by again wishing this project every success. I hope that it will co-operate with neighbouring areas, both to the south on Teesside and to the north in Scotland—where I hope it will be able to continue to do so following a successful no vote in the Scottish referendum later this year. I am sure that, given the outward-looking nature of this enterprise and of the councils and the people involved in it, it will have every success. I think that this debate today, with the warmth of the tributes that have already been paid to the project, is strong evidence that that will be the case.