Wagner Group

Debate between Lord Singh of Wimbledon and Baroness Williams of Trafford

Tuesday 11th July 2023 Lords Chamber

[Lord Browne of Ladyton (Lab)]

My Lords—

[Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con)]

My Lords, it was actually the turn of the Cross Benches, although I do not know what the Lord Speaker will decide, because we are now out of time.

[Lord Singh of Wimbledon (CB)]

My Lords, does the Minister agree that while the existence of mercenary groups such as the French Foreign Legion—which was involved, along with other countries in the West, in expanding into Africa and creating colonies and wealth—was acceptable in the 19th and 20th centuries, it is totally unacceptable in the more moral climate of the 21st century?

Migration and Economic Development Partnership with Rwanda

Debate between Lord Singh of Wimbledon and Baroness Williams of Trafford

Wednesday 15th June 2022 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con)]

I would say all yes on all three counts—but on that last point, as I said earlier, I know the Deputy Prime Minister is looking at a Bill of rights, and there is nothing wrong with revisiting things from time to time.

[Lord Singh of Wimbledon (CB)]

My Lords, last week we were given a clear assurance that refugees from Ukraine would not be sent to Rwanda. Does this two-tier system of human rights fit with any sort of concept of equal rights for every human being? While I deeply sympathise with the plight of the Ukrainians, other people are also suffering and all people should have equal human rights.

Secondly, does the Minister agree with the sentiments expressed by all the Bishops of this House in yesterday’s Times that this policy of sending suffering people—people fleeing for their lives—to Rwanda goes against all the concepts of Christian teachings and, if I may add, the teachings of other faiths too?

Lastly, does she agree that the whole concept of tearing up treaties, such as the Northern Ireland protocol and now the European Convention on Human Rights, makes us look ridiculous in the eyes of the rest of the world?

White Ribbon Campaign

Debate between Lord Singh of Wimbledon and Baroness Williams of Trafford

Thursday 25th November 2021 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con)]

I do not think it has requested funding from us, but I will check that point. We committed to launch a communications campaign this year that targets and challenges perpetrators of these types of crimes and ensures that victims can recognise abuse and receive the support they need.

[Lord Singh of Wimbledon (CB)]

My Lords, the commendable white ribbon initiative will clearly appeal to those appalled by violence against women, but it will do little to curb violent offenders. Does the Minister agree that to tackle violence against women we have to supplement the teachings of the three Rs at school with the other three Rs of right, wrong and responsibility so that children do not copy but challenge negative attitudes and irresponsible behaviour?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con)]

There is no doubt that what children see at home is quite often repeated throughout their life, so if their mother is a victim of domestic abuse quite often her children will grow up to be more likely to be victims of abuse. That cycle has to stop, and one of the ways in which we can do that is to teach our boys and girls at school what respectful relationships look like.

Refugees: Status

Debate between Lord Singh of Wimbledon and Baroness Williams of Trafford

Tuesday 2nd November 2021 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con)]

I do not think my noble friend was confused at all. I think he was saying, if I interpret him correctly, that the nature of migration has hugely changed over the last 70 years, and is it time to look again at our obligations under the 1951 refugee convention?

[Lord Singh of Wimbledon (CB)]

My Lords, the involvement of external powers, whatever their motives, dramatically increases the number of refugees, and this can place an unfair burden on neighbouring safe but poorer countries. Does the Minister agree that external powers involved, directly or through the sale of arms, have a moral obligation to accept refugees that they have helped to create?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con)]

I think the noble Lord asks a question that probably requires more than the 20 seconds that I have left to answer it. He makes a pertinent point about conflict and the cause of migration and refugee issues. Certainly, some of the countries that he talks about might not be suitable to send refugees to.

EU Bilateral Agreements for Asylum Seekers

Debate between Lord Singh of Wimbledon and Baroness Williams of Trafford

Monday 6th September 2021 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con)]

I fear that I do not have details of payments made to the French, but I can say that, so far this year, up to 25 August, our co-operation with French law enforcement has helped to prevent more than 10,000 migrant attempts. That compares to just over 4,000 for the previous period, in 2020. Clearly, how we are working together is having some effect.

[Lord Singh of Wimbledon (CB)]

My Lords, does the Minister agree that asylum seekers who sometimes risk their lives in small, leaky boats, desperately trying to rebuild shattered lives, are human beings deserving of compassion, not unwanted objects to be shuttled between countries—particularly between countries that call themselves Christian?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con)]

I have no hesitation in agreeing with the noble Lord that asylum seekers are human beings who deserve our respect; they are not objects. Our Nationality and Borders Bill seeks to address the point that the people who are so culpable here are the criminals, who have no regard for lives, vulnerable or otherwise, and seek only to make money out of other people’s vulnerability.

Net Migration

Debate between Lord Singh of Wimbledon and Baroness Williams of Trafford

Tuesday 25th May 2021 Lords Chamber

[Lord Singh of Wimbledon (CB) [V]]

My Lords, the Home Secretary says that we welcome those in genuine need of sanctuary, except those forced to flee in small boats. Many of those people have lost their homes and livelihoods as a result of conflict in the Middle East made worse by the intervention of outside countries, including the UK. Does the Minister therefore agree that we have a moral obligation to give shelter to those we have helped make homeless refugees?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con)]

My Lords, not only do we have a moral obligation but we have stated that moral obligation time and again. We have a history of meeting that moral obligation, and we intend to continue to do so.

Policing and Prevention of Violence against Women

Debate between Lord Singh of Wimbledon and Baroness Williams of Trafford

Tuesday 16th March 2021 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con) [V]]

I thank my noble friend for all the work she has done with me on the Domestic Abuse Bill. I say to her that serial perpetrators are often captured under VISOR because of the violent nature of their activities.

[Lord Singh of Wimbledon (CB) [V]]

My Lords, the statement of firmer legal action and the announcement of better lighting and more CCTV cameras do little to address the causes of violent and unacceptable behaviour towards women. To me, a placard at last night’s vigil for Sarah Everard says it all: “Educate your son”. Does the Minister agree that, in our homes and schools, we are failing to teach the boundaries of unacceptable behaviour towards women and girls? Will she further agree that a Sikh injunction at a time of conflict—to treat women and girls as mother, sister or daughter—is a worthy ideal for all of us at all times?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con) [V]]

The noble Lord talks such sense on these matters, and I agree with that “educate your son” placard. If we, as parents, do not teach our children the boundaries and they do not learn them at school, how will they know what is and is not acceptable, and how will they know what respect is? As the noble Lord says, failing to protect our women in turn fails to protect our children as well.

EU-UK Joint Political Declaration on Asylum and Returns

Debate between Lord Singh of Wimbledon and Baroness Williams of Trafford

Thursday 28th January 2021 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con)]

As I said to noble Lords who asked this previously, routes are available to people who wish to seek our asylum. Those routes have always existed. We were never going to be involved in Dublin beyond our exit from the European Union. My right honourable friend the Home Secretary will, in due course, lay out those safe and legal routes. We will also continue to give people who need our protection refuge in this country.

[Lord Singh of Wimbledon (CB) [V]]

My Lords, I have consistently argued for a more Christian approach to those seeking asylum after losing loved ones, homes and livelihoods as a result of proxy conflict between the great powers seeking to extend their influence in areas such as the Middle East, with bombs, rockets and drone strikes. Does the Minister agree that countries that behave in that way have a basic moral obligation to look to the well-being of those seeking refuge?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con)]

Countries that behave in the way that the noble Lord has outlined clearly do not have regard for the well-being or humanity of their people. I think he will be satisfied by the fact that we will take a whole-of-world approach to resettlement and that asylum will be based on people’s need for our protection, as opposed to where they have come from.

Domestic Abuse and Hidden Harms during Lockdown

Debate between Lord Singh of Wimbledon and Baroness Williams of Trafford

Tuesday 19th January 2021 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con)]

What we have seen is a sharp increase in the number of calls to domestic abuse helplines, but that does not necessarily equate to underreporting generally. I think that the numbers reported have gone up, and the extent to which they have gone up will probably be unravelled only subsequently, as some people feel too scared to report in any event. It is a problem generally in lockdown, and it remains to be seen just how much has occurred. I do not know why men might feel more reluctant to report; there is possibly some issue of feeling ashamed to report domestic abuse. The number of men who do come forward are to be commended for sharing what some men feel too ashamed to admit.

[Lord Singh of Wimbledon (CB) [V]]

My Lords, measures like the “Ask for Ani” scheme outlined in the Statement are welcome and will help reduce domestic abuse and hidden harms in the majority community. Does the Minister agree that we need to do more to meet the sometimes differing concerns and hidden harms in minority communities? Does she agree that the Government should look beyond the routine round-table meetings with sometimes questionable faith leaders to clear social agenda-led initiatives for a more cohesive and fairer society?

Immigration Rules: Supported Accommodation

Debate between Lord Singh of Wimbledon and Baroness Williams of Trafford

Thursday 17th December 2020 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con)]

My noble friend’s question is a global one: why would people make these dangerous journeys, facilitated by criminals and risking their own lives, if they were not fleeing such substandard, and in many cases frightening, conditions back home? It is a terribly sad state that so many migrants are willing to make that journey. It is only in helping people, both upstream and in the reception that we give to genuine asylum seekers, that we can hope to address in some way the terrible things that people are facing.

[Lord Singh of Wimbledon (CB) [V]]

My Lords, why are we being so hard on asylum seekers in this season of good will? Does the Minister agree that we and other great powers, partly responsible for destroying the homes and livelihoods of innocents fleeing conflict in the Middle East, have a moral responsibility to provide shelter and a livelihood for those we have helped to displace?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con)]

I cannot say that I agree with the noble Lord that we are acting so harshly. My right honourable friend the Home Secretary is trying to give refuge to those who genuinely need our asylum, but to crack down on some of the huge level of criminal activity that leads people to risk unsafe journeys, and thus their lives.

Covid-19: Domestic Abuse of Older People

Debate between Lord Singh of Wimbledon and Baroness Williams of Trafford

Tuesday 1st December 2020 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con)]

It is sheer happenstance, but I was talking to a GP’s wife yesterday, particularly about elderly people’s access to their GP—a need acutely enhanced by the pandemic. She said to me, and I am sure it is true throughout the country, that she was happy to ring or email her GP, but older people really value face-to-face support for all sorts of reasons, whether they are victims of domestic violence or not. It certainly is one good way for GPs to ascertain whether somebody is vulnerable. I also point to the troubled families programme, in which agencies work together to spot signs of problems within family situations.

[Lord Singh of Wimbledon (CB) [V]]

My Lords, domestic abuse, including that of the elderly, is on the increase due to the pressures of Covid-19, in all communities, including—[Inaudible]. Would the Minister agree that a simple, broad-brush approach to tackling domestic violence is not enough, and that close, informed co-operation between the Government and movers and shakers in these communities is needed in addition to the less productive, routine, round-table meetings?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con)]

A bit of the noble Lord’s question was missed out but I heard him saying that we could not just adopt a “one approach fits all” method in terms of domestic abuse. I heard him say that it is on the increase during lockdown, and we certainly have had more calls to helplines. I agree that we need to think carefully about certain sections of our communities—those who might be isolated because of age or other reasons—and stand ready to support them. I hope that the Domestic Abuse Bill will be that landmark occasion that changes the lives of many people.

UK Terrorism Threat Level

Debate between Lord Singh of Wimbledon and Baroness Williams of Trafford

Tuesday 10th November 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord Singh of Wimbledon (CB) [V]]

My Lords, the Statement stresses that religion should not be used to justify murder, yet religious texts make frequent allusions to God-sanctioned rights to kill disbelievers. Does the Minister agree that religious leaders should take the lead in saying that references to long-forgotten enmities that provide the warped rationale for religious extremists have no place in today’s different times?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con)]

The noble Lord and I can be absolutely consistent on that. I always agree with him when he makes that point. Religion should not be used as a tool either for extremism or for terrorism. It is interesting to note that religion often does not start out as an argument for terrorism but soon becomes that arguing point. He has always made the point about leadership in this country being important.

Life in the UK Test

Debate between Lord Singh of Wimbledon and Baroness Williams of Trafford

Tuesday 3rd November 2020 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con)]

I thank my noble friend for that question. It goes to the heart of the fact that we do not all know everything about history.

[Lord Singh of Wimbledon (CB) [V]]

My Lords, the Life in the UK test is a bit of an obstacle course, requiring A-level English and a detailed knowledge of cultural trivia that, as mentioned, would defeat many of us. My main concern is about the reference to British values as if they were exclusive. Does the Minister agree that values such as democracy, the rule of law, and individual freedom and tolerance are not exclusively British? They are simply key universal values that aspiring citizens are required to respect.

[Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con)]

I agree with the noble Lord that British values are common values. However, some of them may not be writ large in some of the countries that people come from. It is important to reiterate our common values—including the rule of law, as my noble friend Lord Blencathra said—in integrating people into British society.

Domestic Abuse

Debate between Lord Singh of Wimbledon and Baroness Williams of Trafford

Wednesday 29th July 2020 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

This question very neatly segues from the question asked by the noble Baroness, Lady Burt, about the reluctance of older people to come forward and admit they have a problem. On charities, I will give the noble Baroness information that I have from a charity that specifically supports older people who are suffering abuse. We have given £50,000 to Hourglass, which I am sure that the noble Baroness has heard of, for 2020-21, and a further £67,000 to support people through the Covid period, when they might be at a higher risk. The noble Baroness will know that we have also given £76 million to support vulnerable people over Covid, including victims of sexual abuse and domestic abuse, and £28 million to support victims of domestic abuse and their children. I appreciate that the latter point probably does not cover elder abuse.

[Lord Singh of Wimbledon (CB) [V]]

My Lords, while measures such as collecting data and greater penalties for domestic abuse can help curb unacceptable behaviour, they cannot create a more compassionate society. Does the Minister agree that the only way to do this is to make ethical imperatives such as “honour thy father and mother” a part of our collective moral DNA?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, the noble Lord will have heard the Government talking many times about the common values of this country, and some of the expectations that we have in terms of freedom of speech, freedom of religion, and all those things. The values of this country are a sound basis for the way in which we behave, and domestic abuse has no place in it.

Metropolitan Police: Racism

Debate between Lord Singh of Wimbledon and Baroness Williams of Trafford

Wednesday 15th July 2020 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I do not think anyone would disagree with my noble friend’s point. On the back of that, HMICFRS has agreed to focus more closely on how forces are performing on diversity and inclusion as part of its next round of Peel assessments. Diversity and ability are not, of course, mutually exclusive and, as my noble friend points out, a far more diverse workforce might help with some of those issues at the top.

[Lord Singh of Wimbledon (CB) [V]]

Does the Minister agree that racism in the police service, evident in stop and search and disproportionate disciplinary procedures against BAME officers, arises from ignorance and prejudice? Does she also agree on the importance of education and training in the need to look beyond superficial difference to the reality: that we all have much in common?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

We most certainly all have much in common, and we now collect and publish more data on stop and search than ever before. We allow local scrutiny groups, the police and crime commissioners and others to hold forces to account. We also discuss it with relevant National Police Chiefs’ Council leads and forces to understand why disparities arise. Perhaps I might also say that the Home Secretary is chairing the national policing board today, and there is an item on diversity.

Immigration: Detainee Support

Debate between Lord Singh of Wimbledon and Baroness Williams of Trafford

Tuesday 7th July 2020 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

The noble Baroness points to our wish to avoid immigration detention at all costs. It is for the purposes of removal when the right of appeal has been exhausted and there is no other prospect of removing people. One lesson we have learned is how humane this country is. We have taken in people from Greece, which, I think, no other European country has been able to. I am very proud of that position.

[Lord Singh of Wimbledon (CB) [V]]

My Lords, the near-prison environment of detention centres can lead to mental trauma and frequent self-harm. Does the Minister agree that we have an obligation to ensure that, on release, these vulnerable people are properly settled in society?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I agree with the noble Lord. Anyone in asylum accommodation has access to our advice, issue reporting and eligibility provider, Migrant Help. He is right that there will be vulnerable people in our detention estate.

Windrush Compensation Scheme

Debate between Lord Singh of Wimbledon and Baroness Williams of Trafford

Wednesday 24th June 2020 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I pay tribute to the noble Baroness for all the work she has done in this area. I hope that the progress we have made on this is some comfort after seven decades of inequality being built up because of successive Governments—we all need to look to ourselves—putting in place policies that have made it more difficult for members of the Windrush generation and others to settle and make their lives here. I shall certainly take back what she said about a race equality strategy. I hope the noble Baroness is happy about the cross-government working group in the sense that it brings in a whole-of-Whitehall approach not only to look at some of the lessons that Wendy Williams wants us to look at but to tackle the problems that occur across government departments in exacerbating race inequality.

[Lord Singh of Wimbledon (CB) [V]]

My Lords, does the Minister agree that the Windrush scandal is only a symptom of deeper prejudice ingrained in human nature that can be tackled only with a less jingoistic and more questioning approach to the teaching of history and culture?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I think the only answer to that is yes, my Lords.

Reading Terrorist Attack

Debate between Lord Singh of Wimbledon and Baroness Williams of Trafford

Tuesday 23rd June 2020 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

The Government have been very clear that we will engage with people and communities that share our common values and wish to see a society that is safe for everybody. The Government keep decisions about disengagement under regular review, but it is very difficult to engage with those who wish to do us harm or do not share the common values of the wider society in which we live.

[Lord Singh of Wimbledon (CB) [V]]

My Lords, does the Minister agree that religious leaders have a responsibility to explain that claims of God-sanctioned religious superiority and the denigration of others embedded in religious texts fuel terrorist activity and are not relevant in today’s times?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

The noble Lord is right. It is very easy to take a piece of religious text and twist it so that it has a different meaning or to wind people up by saying that God wants something from them which is not the case. He has talked a lot about religious literacy and ensuring that those who preach whatever religion do so not in a biased or twisted fashion that takes away from the original text.

Net Migration

Debate between Lord Singh of Wimbledon and Baroness Williams of Trafford

Monday 3rd February 2020 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

There is now net positive migration, which has been pretty much steady over the last few years, so we are not currently seeing net emigration.

[Lord Singh of Wimbledon (CB)]

My Lords, does the Minister agree that a sure way to reduce potential immigration is to consider refugees fleeing from local conflicts, which is made horrendously worse by the intervention and bombing carried out by Russia and the western powers?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

The noble Lord will agree that, as a country, we are absolutely committed to giving people our safety and refuge where they need it and are fleeing war-torn countries. That goes to our values as citizens, and it will continue.

Immigration Detention

Debate between Lord Singh of Wimbledon and Baroness Williams of Trafford

Wednesday 3rd April 2019 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

As I said, the figure of 92% of people being released from detention, who have been there perhaps for immigration bail or other forms of review, is the result of our not wanting to keep people in detention and doing so only to remove them.

[Lord Singh of Wimbledon (CB)]

My Lords, while the checking of documentation and control of numbers can be justified, does the Minister agree that indefinite detention and a callous, dismissive attitude to would-be immigrants or asylum seekers, including the elderly and infirm, as detailed in the report, can never be justified? This is a Christian country. In Leviticus 19:33-34, the Bible reminds us:

“When a stranger resides with you in your land, you shall not wrong him … you shall love him as yourself”.

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I thank the noble Lord for that point. As he made it, thunder was clapping —I do not know whether it was for here or for another place.

The noble Lord is absolutely right that the law does not allow indefinite detention. The purpose of detention is to remove someone, and in as short a time as possible. He raises a good point about vulnerable people. It might help him to know that we are currently piloting a scheme to manage a number of vulnerable women in the community who would otherwise have been detained at Yarl’s Wood. With the input of a medical expert, we are looking to differentiate more strongly between vulnerable cases to ensure that the most complex get the attention that they need.

Prevent Strategy

Debate between Lord Singh of Wimbledon and Baroness Williams of Trafford

Wednesday 6th March 2019 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

The noble Lord is absolutely right: we cannot discuss what is happening in this area without talking about the online sphere. I entirely agree with him that the White Paper on internet harms has to include that important element.

[Lord Singh of Wimbledon (CB)]

My Lords, does the Minister agree that “prevent” is too weak and negative a word for trying to get different communities to behave responsibly and with respect towards one another? Does she further agree that religious leaders have a particular responsibility to counter bigotry by emphasising that the one God of us all is not interested in our different religious labels but in what we do for one another and wider society?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

The noble Lord is indeed right. Our gods, whoever they are, care about how we treat each other and work together. On the question of whether “prevent” is too weak or has become too divisive, what is often forgotten is that many of the referrals—in fact, almost half now—arise from concerns about the far right. I hope that the noble Lord will feed into the review when it comes.

Offensive Weapons Bill

Debate between Lord Singh of Wimbledon and Baroness Williams of Trafford

Report: 2nd sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Monday 4th March 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Suri (Con)]

My Lords, the description of the kirpan given by the noble Lord, Lord Kennedy, was absolutely correct: it is a religious requirement which has been known to British Governments and the British people since the two World Wars. In the Army, there was a Sikh batch of religious people who used to have a ceremonial sword in front of the holy book. There is nothing wrong with that; it is used purely for religious purposes and I think would be good if this amendment were accepted.

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Kennedy, for his amendment. It deals with an issue which we discussed at length in Committee and which was the subject of a very productive round table on 13 February, attended by members of the Sikh community, the noble Lords, Lord Kennedy, Lord Paddick and Lord Singh, and my noble friend Lord Suri. I was also grateful to have a separate discussion with my noble friend Lady Verma. I have provided a fact sheet to noble Lords, setting out the current position under the offensive weapons legislation in relation to kirpans, and I would happily place a copy in the Library of the House.

The amendment from the noble Lord, Lord Kennedy, seeks to ensure that Sikhs are not prosecuted for possessing a kirpan and to allow the gifting of large kirpans by Sikhs to non-Sikhs. The amendment would therefore exempt kirpans from the offences of possessing a bladed or sharply pointed article in a public place or school and further education premises, and from the offence of possessing an offensive weapon under Section 141A of the Criminal Justice Act 1988. I believe that the intention is also to exempt kirpans from the offence of supplying an offensive weapon under Section 141 of the 1988 Act—albeit the current amendment only references possession. The exemption would apply where the kirpan is possessed for,

“religious, ceremonial, sporting or historical reasons”.

My main issue with the amendment is that it refers to kirpans but does not define them. Kirpans vary considerably in size and shape, the only common factor being their association with the Sikh faith. This is why the existing defences of possession and supply for “religious reasons” work so well—they define by reference to purpose. It would not be workable to have an exemption for kirpans without saying what they are, otherwise everyone caught in possession of a knife or sword could claim that it was a kirpan and that they possessed it for,

“religious, ceremonial, sporting or historical reasons”.

The police and the CPS would have to prove otherwise, in effect having to prove that the item was not a kirpan, the person was not a Sikh, or that the person was not possessing it for sporting, ceremonial or other reasons, rather than the defendant proving or showing that they have a defence for possessing the weapon.

I appreciate that the intent behind the amendment is to deal with the issue of the gifting of kirpans, because there is already a defence for religious reasons under Sections 139, 139A, 141 and 141A of the 1988 Act, and there is already a defence for sporting purposes under Sections 141 and 141A of that Act. The Government are sympathetic to the need to find a solution to the issue of the Sikh cultural practice of gifting a kirpan. Within government, we are continuing to look actively at this issue and to meet the noble Lord, Lord Singh, and others to make sure that we come to the right solution. I am very hopeful that something can be done in this area and that it will be possible to bring forward a suitable government-drafted amendment at Third Reading.

I also note that as drafted, the amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Kennedy, does not render the supply of a kirpan—that is, the act of gifting—lawful; it exempts only possession. This is one issue which we will need to consider further, ahead of the next stage. In the usual way, noble Lords will understand that I cannot give a cast-iron guarantee that the Government will be able to support a more targeted amendment at Third Reading. However, we will make our intentions clear in advance so that, if necessary, the noble Lord can bring back this amendment or some variant of it. But on the basis—

[Lord Singh of Wimbledon]

My Lords—

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

May I just finish before the noble Lord comes in? On the basis that we want to work with noble Lords to find an equitable solution, I hope that the noble Lord will be able to withdraw his amendment at this stage. The answer to the question put by the noble Lord, Lord Paddick, about what other communities came forward, is: none.

[Lord Singh of Wimbledon]

My Lords, much is being made of the definition of a kirpan. It was said in a meeting with Home Office people that a kirpan is simply a Punjabi word for a sword, and that there is no other need for a definition as it is nothing very different. This has been said again and again, yet the definition is being used as a reason for delay and further consideration, which completely confuses me.

Religious Hate Speech

Debate between Lord Singh of Wimbledon and Baroness Williams of Trafford

Wednesday 5th December 2018 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I do agree with the noble Lord that the conflation of Islamism and Islamic is widespread. Not only should we understand where the two terms come from—Islamism, of course, comes from the collapse of the Ottoman empire—but that Islam itself is a peaceful religion and Muslims in this country contribute to the variety and diversity of our country.

[Lord Singh of Wimbledon (CB)]

My Lords, does the Minister agree that all faiths should be treated equally, and does she deplore the present practice of resources going to those who shout the loudest? There are no comparative statistics on hate crime for different faiths.

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I agree with the noble Lord that all religions should be treated equally. The premise of some of our hate crime legislation absolutely underpins that equality in society. No one should feel that hate should be meted out on them because of their religion, the colour of their skin, their sexual orientation or their disability.

Terrorism: Perpetrator Creed

Debate between Lord Singh of Wimbledon and Baroness Williams of Trafford

Wednesday 25th October 2017 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I totally agree with the right reverend Prelate, and commend the Church, as I often do, for the work that it does to inspire community cohesion. In my previous role, I was aware of its work on projects such as Near Neighbours. The right reverend Prelate makes the point about the responsibility of the media. Of course, we will absolutely stick up for a free press, but I certainly think that, as he says, the press needs to become more religiously literate in how it reports. I loved the comment that he made about the chap on the tube—I had forgotten that—who said, “You ain’t no Muslim, bro”, because it symbolised what we all think: that we are standing together, Muslim, Jew, Christian, Sikh and Hindu, against the forces of evil in society.

[Lord Singh of Wimbledon (CB)]

My Lords, does the Minister agree that, while we should deplore the linking of the evil behaviour of a few people with the whole of that religious community, it is equally important to condemn the behaviour of extremist clerics who use out-of-context religious texts to promote hatred of other communities?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

As always, the noble Lord makes a very good point. It is the responsibility of leaders in our society to lead by example, and some clerical teachings somewhat stray from that at times. As I said, the free press is something that we hold precious, but we all have a responsibility in our own way, whether as the leader of a church, a Sikh gurdwara or a mosque, to promote cohesive messages, not divisive ones.

Terrorist and Extremist Propaganda: Online Sources

Debate between Lord Singh of Wimbledon and Baroness Williams of Trafford

Wednesday 28th June 2017 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, my noble friend is right that the move to actual radicalisation can be very quick indeed. I pay tribute to the Counter Terrorism Internet Referral Unit, which since 2010 has helped to secure the removal of 270,000 pieces of material from the internet by social media providers—8,000 a month in 2016 alone. The CTIRU was the first of its kind globally and continues to be world-leading in its operation. My noble friend mentioned encryption, and we support the use of strong encryption. However, we must also ensure that, in tightly prescribed circumstances, our law enforcement and security and intelligence agencies are able to access the communications of criminals, including terrorists.

[Lord Singh of Wimbledon (CB)]

My Lords, does the Minister agree that what generally passes for religion is not only ethical guidance for sane living, but a sometimes oppressive culture and a shared history often bent or moulded to dislike or hatred? It is such material that is used to radicalise people. Does the Minister agree that there should be open debate about these things and that this aspect of religion should not be protected by political correctness if we want a truly healthy society?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

The noble Lord, as always, makes insightful points. Of course there is a big difference between religion and culture and it is often in the attempt to conflate the two that we come up against such horrible types of terrorist activity. The Prime Minister said the other day that we must be prepared to have difficult conversations and I totally agree. Just because conversations are difficult does not mean that we should not have them, and they may lead to a much smoother way forward.

Terrorism: Domestic Extremism

Debate between Lord Singh of Wimbledon and Baroness Williams of Trafford

Wednesday 26th April 2017 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, clearly events have overtaken us. Tomorrow we will prorogue and this will be in the hands of the next Government—it might be a Labour one—to decide whether to bring forward such legislation. Yes, at the time of the last Queen’s speech that was our intention.

[Lord Singh of Wimbledon (CB)]

My Lords, I emphasise the concern over definitions. In the 1980s, when Sikhs were persecuted throughout India, when they were blamed and called terrorists and extremists, I was asked by the BBC whether I was a moderate or an extremist. I replied, “I am extremely moderate”. Such words have no meaning. We must get beyond these smear definitions and look to what actually concerns us.

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

As someone who is extremely moderate as well, I do not disagree with the noble Lord. The point I was making in my Answer to the Question is that this definition was made by the police.

EU Court of Justice Ruling: Religious Signs

Debate between Lord Singh of Wimbledon and Baroness Williams of Trafford

Wednesday 15th March 2017 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I shall deal with the latter point precisely: yes, we will protect and uphold the freedoms that have been allowed in this country, as we always have done. It will not affect our domestic law. The noble Baroness is also right that when a judgment such as this is made, it is then referred to the national courts—in this case, the courts of France and Belgium—and it is up to them to interpret within their laws what the judgment means. As far as this country is concerned, nothing changes.

[Lord Singh of Wimbledon (CB)]

My Lords, I thank the Government for the clarity and forcefulness of the Statement protecting religious minorities. The law in Europe seems to be in a mess because of the two conflicting judgments. They are conflicting because if the Human Rights Council says that people have the right to manifest their religion, that should be absolute. Otherwise, it becomes very difficult. Who decides? In France and Belgium, the Governments overrule that judgment. Sikh schoolchildren cannot go to a public school with a turban and people who want a passport photo have to take their turban off. This is just absurd. I do not know whether there is anything the Government can do to explain that absurdity to those in Europe.

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

We do not consider that the two are inconsistent in terms of the European Court of Human Rights judgment. Sorry—I have got the wrong end of the stick. The noble Lord is correct in one sense that the CJEU judgment could conflict with the laws of the states—that is, France and Belgium. It not seeking to make the law for those countries. It is sending the case back to them for domestic consideration. In that sense, I do not see inconsistency, but I know exactly what the noble Lord is driving at.

Religious Literacy

Debate between Lord Singh of Wimbledon and Baroness Williams of Trafford

Thursday 9th February 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord Singh of Wimbledon]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what steps they are taking to combat religious extremism and to promote a cohesive society by enhancing religious literacy at all levels of government.

[The Minister of State, Home Office (Baroness Williams of Trafford) (Con)]

My Lords, the Government are challenging all forms of extremism through our counterextremism and Prevent programmes. We are working closely with faith groups to understand the impact of policies and to improve religious literacy in government. The Home Secretary and the Communities Secretary hosted a round table for representatives of all faiths last November.

[Lord Singh of Wimbledon (CB)]

I thank the noble Baroness for that Answer, but there are still concerns. The Government paper on the hate crime action plan contained no mention of non-Abrahamic faiths. That suggests something about the religious literacy there. Does the Minister agree that democracy implies being attentive to the legitimate concerns of all sections of the community, not those of a single religious or other majority? Does she further agree that teachings and practices that go against human rights must be robustly challenged, but that we need to know something about what we are challenging before we can do that? Programmes like Prevent cannot be effective without such knowledge. One final point is that I have put the basics of Sikh teachings on one side of A4, and that can be done for other faiths as well. Should that not be essential for religious literacy in government departments?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I missed a little of the noble Lord’s question, but I think I have enough to go on. He said that the hate crime action plan did not specifically refer to non-Abrahamic faiths, but the tenets of the action plan cover points on hatred on the basis of religious belief, disability, sexuality and so on. It is therefore implicit within it that, for example, Sikh communities are included. As for the understanding of religious literacy within both government and wider society, both the Home Office and DCLG engage widely and often with faith communities. Shortly after the referendum, I myself met people from different faiths, including Sikhs, in Manchester to discuss religious literacy, the outcome of the referendum and the corresponding hate crime attached to it.

Islam: Tenet of Abrogation

Debate between Lord Singh of Wimbledon and Baroness Williams of Trafford

Monday 12th December 2016 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I could not have put it better than my noble friend; that is absolutely right. The vast majority of Muslims in this country share our values and share most of the things that we would aspire to for our children and our communities. We should not make blanket statements about a very small minority.

[Lord Singh of Wimbledon (CB)]

My Lords, whenever the question of religion is raised in this House, there seems to be an air of embarrassment, as if it were something private that should not be discussed. The reality is that it is very much the concern of us all. The suffering in Syria and the weekend outrages in Cairo and Istanbul show that a force, religion, which has a potential for good, is being used these days as a force for evil. Does the Minister agree with the findings of the Louise Casey report that the interfaith industry has done very little to combat this, and we need an actual discussion of the concerns that people feel, rather than being superficially nice to each other?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, the noble Lord is absolutely right that religion should be a force for good. It is a particularly pertinent point at Christmas time to consider what religion is a force for. Christmas is a time for giving and doing good to your fellow man or woman. Dame Louise Casey produced an independent report which the Government will consider in due course and comment on in the new year. She addressed what the noble Lord is talking about—namely, that we should not be frightened of saying things.

Prevent Strategy

Debate between Lord Singh of Wimbledon and Baroness Williams of Trafford

Wednesday 26th October 2016 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, I will not repeat the previous answer I gave—but, far from trying to target people, Prevent tries to protect people. As to children being dealt with inappropriately in schools, there have been some of the most ridiculous stories you might hear of children being targeted. The Government have recognised the need for much-enhanced training in this area. Since 2011 we have significantly stepped that up, training more than 600,000 front-line staff in how to spot the subtleties the noble Baroness talks about, which are often being missed.

[Lord Singh of Wimbledon (CB)]

My Lords, the difficulty with Prevent is that it is very vague. Words such as “extremism”, “fundamentalism” and “radicalisation” all leave us none the wiser—and “Islamist” is a positive insult to the Muslim community. Would the Minister agree that the real target of Prevent is the out-of-context use of religious texts to justify the abuse of human rights and the cruel treatment of women and people of other faiths? Will she try to engage with faith leaders to ensure that they interpret religious texts in the context of today’s times?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

The noble Lord, as always, makes very wise points. So often in the case of religion, religious texts are misinterpreted to the extent that they are completely out of context with the actions of those who would seek to undermine the true tenets of those religions. Islam is one such example: it is a very peaceful, loving religion, but you would not think so sometimes from some of the actions of some people.

Hate Crime

Debate between Lord Singh of Wimbledon and Baroness Williams of Trafford

Tuesday 18th October 2016 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I agree with the noble Lord to the extent that stamping out hatred in people’s hearts and minds is a bigger issue than just providing a hate crime action plan, but this country is tolerant and welcoming. We have seen that in the past 24 hours with some of those fleeing persecution in other countries coming across and being welcomed to this country. It involves more than just action plans—attitudes and the way that we approach our fellow man or woman in everyday life.

[Lord Singh of Wimbledon (CB)]

My Lords, hate crime is an extreme form of prejudice, and prejudice arises from ignorance. Does the Minister agree that there is a much greater need for religious literacy at all levels of society, including government, where it is not always visible? Does she further agree that another contributory factor to hate crime is the reticence of the British people to talk about religion? Religion, which tells us how to live, move and have our being, should be open to challenge if we want a more cohesive society.

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I agree with the noble Lord, as I often do, that religious literacy in all aspects of society—particularly through the media—is incredibly important and something that schools can promote through PSHE. The Government have made a number of funding streams available in order for people to not only discuss what unites them in terms of their religions but celebrate what is different about them. That celebration is a good thing.

Hate Crime

Debate between Lord Singh of Wimbledon and Baroness Williams of Trafford

Wednesday 14th September 2016 Lords Chamber

[Lord Singh of Wimbledon]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government why their report Action Against Hate: The UK Government’s plan for tackling hate crime, published in July 2016, does not report on the incidence of hate crimes against non-Abrahamic faith communities.

[The Minister of State, Home Office (Baroness Williams of Trafford) (Con)]

My Lords, we take all forms of hate crime very seriously. Until April, the police did not routinely record religious hate incidents by faith. However, we are grateful to both the Community Security Trust and Tell MAMA, which have provided anti-Semitic and anti-Muslim hate crime data for some time. The first disaggregated police recorded data will be available in 2017. Action Against Hate brings together a range of departments and agencies, and includes funding for places of worship and further action in education.

[Lord Singh of Wimbledon (CB)]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for her response but it does not address my concerns over the narrow and biased thinking in a report that details 45 examples of hate crime against Abrahamic faiths but not a single example of the many, well-documented mistaken-identity hate crimes suffered by Sikhs and others—and this in a report emanating from a department with specifically designated officers to consider hate crime against the Jewish and Muslim communities but not anyone else. Would the Minister agree that that omission is more due to ignorance than deliberate discrimination? Would she further agree that those who preach the need for religious literacy should first themselves acquire some basic religious literacy, and apologise to those they have offended in such a way?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, the Government have engaged with non-Abrahamic faith communities and will continue to do so. In Manchester in July, in my previous role, I held round-table events with victims of hate crime, including members of the Sikh community alongside other faiths. On Monday, my noble friend Lord Bourne also hosted a round table to discuss hate crime with Sikh organisations as the latest engagement with the Sikh community. We find such round tables a good way to discuss widely concerns on hate crime and look at a variety of issues and approaches. However, while we know that there are common issues across the strands of hate crime, we also accept that there are issues that affect communities specifically. I and/or officials will be very happy to meet the noble Lord to discuss his concerns. On religious literacy, we have talked about this in the past. People such as the media have a role to play in improving their religious literacy.

Religion: Advertisements

Debate between Lord Singh of Wimbledon and Baroness Williams of Trafford

Wednesday 25th November 2015 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, we have made clear our expectation that all schools should actively promote the fundamental British values of democracy, the rule of law, individual liberty and mutual respect and tolerance for those of different faiths and beliefs. Ofsted is embedding this with an inspection framework for all schools; it is right that all schools, including schools of a religious character, promote the fundamental British values of democracy, the rule of law, individual liberty and mutual respect. These are the bedrock of British values and, without them, we cannot expect any young person to play a full part in civic society in this country.

[Lord Singh of Wimbledon (CB)]

Is the Minister aware that Christianity and other religions carry the potential to seriously destabilise society by talking about putting others before self, whereas the prevailing marketing culture says, “Me and mine”? It also does things like talking about forgiveness and reconciliation, which could seriously jeopardise jobs in the prison industry.

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, if there is a choice, I think I would go with the former. It is often shown that giving to others makes you far happier than thinking about me, me, me.

Caste Discrimination

Debate between Lord Singh of Wimbledon and Baroness Williams of Trafford

Wednesday 15th July 2015 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, I repeat once again that the Government will be actively considering this, and will take their view in due course.

[Lord Singh of Wimbledon (CB)]

My Lords, it has been said, I think misleadingly, that Hindu and Sikh organisations are against this legislation outlawing caste discrimination. Can the Minister note that the whole Sikh community and the whole thrust of Sikh teachings are totally against the notion of caste?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I duly note that.

Communities: Young Muslims

Debate between Lord Singh of Wimbledon and Baroness Williams of Trafford

Thursday 25th June 2015 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, I agree with both of them. The Prime Minister is not saying that Muslims are a problem but that Islamic ideology is a problem that needs to be tackled, and Charles Farr was making a similar point.

[Lord Singh of Wimbledon (CB)]

My Lords, is the Minister aware that ever since 9/11 there has been a huge increase in the number of attacks on Sikhs and Sikh places of worship in cases of mistaken identity? The most recent case was a machete attack on a young Sikh dentist in south Wales, which was described on “Newsnight” as Islamophobia. Does the Minister agree that hate crime is hate crime against any community, and that it should be tackled even-handedly, irrespective of the size of the community?