Brexit: European Travel Information and Authorisation System

Lord Spicer Excerpts

Wednesday 17th January 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Callanan]

I think that the Liberal Democrats are yet again making a whole series of assumptions about things that may not happen. If there are delays at the border, that is clearly unacceptable and I am sure that my Home Office colleagues are looking at that. We want people to visit the UK, we want the UK to be an open and welcoming place, the e-gates are one way that the Home Office is improving the procedures and we will want them to continue after Brexit.

[Lord Spicer (Con)]

My Lords—

[Lord Watts (Lab)]

My Lords—

[The Lord Privy Seal (Baroness Evans of Bowes Park) (Con)]

My Lords, it is the turn of the Conservative Benches.

[Lord Spicer]

My Lords, can I ask an even more helpful question than has come forward so far? So far, we have been discussing the signed agreements to the main treaty. Is it not becoming increasingly apparent that the real loser from not signing most of these agreements will be the EU itself?

[Lord Callanan]

My Lords, I think that no agreement would be bad for both sides; that is why we want an agreement.

Brexit: Reports to Parliament

Lord Spicer Excerpts

Monday 8th January 2018 Lords Chamber

Asked by

[Lord Spicer]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government when they next plan to report to Parliament on Brexit.

[The Minister of State, Department for Exiting the European Union (Lord Callanan) (Con)]

My Lords, we are committed to keeping Parliament informed on the UK’s exit from the EU. The Government have provided regular Statements to update Parliament, which have been repeated in this House. There have also been 23 occasions when DExEU Ministers have given evidence to a wide range of committees in both Houses. We will continue to uphold this commitment and will update Parliament at the next appropriate moment.

[Lord Spicer (Con)]

Is my noble friend aware that the British people are now much tougher in their attitude to the negotiations going on in Brussels? They are tired of seeing arrogant and rude officials speaking on behalf of the EU. They want full details of what is now proposed from Europe, as opposed to what they are getting at the moment.

[Lord Callanan]

They are certainly getting full details from us. The noble Lord makes a point that I am not sure I necessarily agree with. All our dealings with our interlocutors in the European Commission have been courteous and civil.

Brexit: Revocability

Lord Spicer Excerpts

Wednesday 20th December 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord Kerr of Kinlochard (CB)]

My Lords—

[Lord Spicer (Con)]

My Lords—

[The Lord Privy Seal (Baroness Evans of Bowes Park) (Con)]

My Lords, many eminent noble Lords want to speak. We will hear from the noble Lord, Lord Faulks.

European Union

Lord Spicer Excerpts

Monday 6th November 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord Callanan]

Yes. It is in our interests for the EU to do well and to succeed, but obviously it would be wrong of us to try to influence where its members might want to take the organisation in the future when we are no longer a member.

[Lord Spicer (Con)]

My Lords, under Article 50, we will leave the European Union on 29 March 2019. Does my noble friend share my worry that sometimes, the noble Lord, Lord Dykes, tends to have a temporary lapse of memory about that?

[Lord Callanan]

I am sure that the noble Lord noticed that we had a referendum on the subject.

Brexit: Financial Settlement

Lord Spicer Excerpts

Thursday 12th October 2017 Lords Chamber

Asked by

[Lord Spicer]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government when they expect to report to Parliament on their negotiations on reaching a financial settlement with the European Union in the Brexit talks.

[The Minister of State, Department for Exiting the European Union (Baroness Anelay of St Johns) (Con)]

My Lords, the Prime Minister provided an update to the House of Commons on Monday following the September negotiations. This covered finances and was repeated in this House. The question of the EU budget can be resolved only as part of the settlement of all the issues that we are working through. We are approaching discussions constructively and are confident we can achieve an outcome in the interests of both sides.

[Lord Spicer (Con)]

I take the point, but when does my noble friend expect the valuation of EU assets to be completed? Is it not the case that if proper account is taken of the assets, we could even end up with the EU paying us, rather than the other way round? You first heard the idea here.

[Baroness Anelay of St Johns]

What a very interesting idea my noble friend puts forward—I hope the EU Commission is listening very carefully. However, he makes the serious point. When we issued the Statement back in July, we made it clear that we will honour our obligations, both legal and moral, to the European Union but also that that is reciprocal. There are obligations from the EU to us, including the valuation of assets. It is a technical matter and part of the discussions. I urge the Commission to get on with the work of carrying out that valuation and considering a fair apportionment of the amount.

Brexit: Negotiations

Lord Spicer Excerpts

Wednesday 13th September 2017 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Anelay of St Johns]

My Lords, both the Secretary of State and I have made clear our commitment to the value of parliamentary scrutiny. Last night, in the excellent debate that we had in this House, I was able to put on record our commitment and to make it clear that there is, perhaps, a little bit of misinformation and misunderstanding about the way in which Ministers have been appearing before Select Committees. What has happened is that, when Ministers—whether it is the Secretary of State, me or another—appear in front of a Select Committee, the officials supporting us are the negotiators. Therefore, it was important that not only are we responsible to Parliament but we ensure that the negotiations can proceed. It is that balance that we have sought to maintain, which is why the Secretary of State has made it clear that, having appeared once just recently in July, he will be appearing again fairly shortly before the Select Committee of this House and before the Brexit committee in another House. There have also been 14 other ministerial appearances—all to make sure that we keep our position and that parliamentary support is properly carried out.

[Lord Spicer (Con)]

Will my noble friend confirm what she implied, I think, at the end of her speech last night, that there would be a valuation of all our assets held by the European Union as part of the calculation of what is owed in net terms?

[Baroness Anelay of St Johns]

My Lords, I was alluding to the fact that there are indeed obligations from the EU as well as obligations from the UK to the EU. As part of that process it will be important to have a valuation of assets.

UK and EU Relations

Lord Spicer Excerpts

Tuesday 12th September 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord Spicer (Con)]

My Lords, before I forget, I want to ask a question that I have not heard anybody else ask. Coming to what the noble Lord, Lord Kerr, said about money, I ask: whose money? This country has put massive investment into infrastructure in the European Union: research establishments, offices, conference halls, and so on. That infrastructure must have gone up in value, so there is a case for arguing that it should be pounds down the end of the table he is talking about, rather than euros.

I am speaking in the gap, so I have four minutes to say what I want to. As a matter of fact, it will take me only half a minute to say what I really want to say, which is that the main point on the negotiations is that we should come out on 29 March 2019. That seems to be absolutely crucial to me, because I believe, and always have done, that the nation state is the best unit of accountability and democracy. It is therefore essential for this country, from the point of view of democracy alone, that we come out on that date.

Now it is true that there is detail to be discussed and of course we cannot go forward without detail. There are good negotiations and bad negotiations. I would argue that a good negotiation would move us closer to free trade and a bad negotiation closer to what I have always believed the European Union is about, which is protectionism—for instance, protecting the high-cost German standards of technology and low-cost Greek technology.

In saying that, we must understand something. The noble Lord, Lord Liddle, who does not appear to be in his place, asked why Britain should on its own be particularly good at negotiating these trade deals. The answer is partly mechanistic and a question of numbers. When we negotiate we do so for ourselves, whereas when the European Union negotiates on our behalf it does so for 27 or 28 countries. It is partly that, but it is also something much more fundamental, to do with the fact that we believe in free trade and the Europeans on the whole believe in protectionism. That is perfectly fine; we just happen to believe in free trade.

Historically, we happen to be rather good at free trade, too. We started as pirates in the 16th century, but have moved on from then. We have been very successful. We are a high-seas trading nation. It is a pity that we did not do something about our airport entry limit. Had we built the third runway at Heathrow, it would have made us even more successful in future trading. We are a high-seas trading nation and for that reason must assume that we will negotiate much more effectively on our own behalf.

Brexit: Negotiations

Lord Spicer Excerpts

Thursday 7th September 2017 Lords Chamber

Asked by

[Lord Spicer]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government when they will next report to Parliament on the progress of negotiations with the European Union with regard to Brexit.

[The Minister of State, Department for Exiting the European Union (Baroness Anelay of St Johns) (Con)]

My Lords, on Tuesday, the Government made a Statement to the House of Commons on progress made in both the July and August negotiation rounds, which I repeated in this Chamber. The Secretary of State made a clear commitment to give an update to the House of Commons after each round of negotiations. With the leave of this House, it will also be repeated here.

[Lord Spicer (Con)]

Will my noble friend confirm that when we leave the European Union on 19 March 2019, the jurisdiction of all the bodies throughout Europe that have governing powers will cease, that that is the essence of Brexit, and that the rest of the issues are consequential and could be settled in their own time?

[Baroness Anelay of St Johns]

My noble friend has raised questions which I am sure will occupy this House with great interest and elicit investigation over the period until we do leave the European Union. He raises a crucial point that in leaving the European Union, we take back control of our own laws, and this is about how we do that and the pace at which we do it. We have made it clear that, for example, the direct jurisdiction of the Court of Justice of the European Union will end as we leave the European Union. But another place is currently discussing the withdrawal Bill, which makes it clear that there would still be some role for the CJEU, for example in pending cases. It is a complex matter and my noble friend is right to raise it.

Brexit: Negotiation Programme

Lord Spicer Excerpts

Monday 20th March 2017 Lords Chamber

Asked by

[Lord Spicer]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government when they will produce their programme for negotiating the United Kingdom’s exit from the European Union.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Exiting the European Union (Lord Bridges of Headley) (Con)]

My Lords, the Prime Minister’s speech at Lancaster House on 17 January and the subsequent White Paper articulate our objectives and the rationale for our approach to the forthcoming negotiations. We will trigger Article 50 next Wednesday, 29 March.

[Lord Spicer (Con)]

My Lords, would my noble friend confirm that this is not a planted Question? I had absolutely no idea a month ago that the Government were going to choose this day to announce the date of the application under Article 50. Perhaps I may press him on one issue, which is that of reversibility. I assume that, once the application has been put in under Article 50, it is not reversible.

[Lord Bridges of Headley]

My Lords, I shall repeat what I have said before. It is a matter of firm policy that, once Article 50 is issued, it will not be revoked, and I can also assure all noble Lords that the Government are indeed intent on delivering the result of the referendum. The United Kingdom will leave the EU and, to quote from the first line of the White Paper:

“We do not approach these negotiations expecting failure, but anticipating success”.

European Union (Notification of Withdrawal) Bill

Lord Spicer Excerpts

Report stage (Hansard): House of Lords
Tuesday 7th March 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord Spicer (Con)]

The noble Lord, Lord Robathan, did not ask the question the noble Lord has just said he asked; he asked whether there might be a third referendum. If the noble Lord cannot give an answer to that, why will there not be a fourth referendum to decide which of the previous three referendums was the real thing?

[Lord Newby]

I would have thought that that is fairly clear. People voted to start the process and we get to the point where there is a deal. At that point, the people should decide, finally, on whether the deal is acceptable. There would be no need, no point, and no issue for having a third referendum after that second decisive referendum.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Hamilton of Epsom]

My Lords, the noble Baroness, Lady Ludford, talks about everything happening in a smooth, orderly way. I rather agree with the noble Baroness, Lady Hayter. Everything will leak. The EU Commission is obliged to report to the European Parliament and the whole idea that the European Parliament will say, “This is all secret information, we should not let it out”, seems to me to be for the birds. Everything will leak and we will hear rumours about how far the negotiations have got, or what has happened. At that point, Parliament will demand a debate. The Government will get up, if this amendment is passed, and say, “No, you must wait for the quarterly review in two months’ time”. I do not think so. I think that the House of Commons will say, “Come on, get on with it, we want a response. Why have we heard these rumours? The Government must put us straight on all of this”.

This amendment, therefore, would achieve nothing. Everything will leak from the negotiations. When things of substance leak, Parliament, particularly the Commons, will demand a debate, and your Lordships’ House will no doubt do the same. This amendment is otiose.

[Lord Spicer]

My Lords, I made the point in Committee that if you want sovereignty of Parliament you should vote as quickly as possible for this Bill and subsequent Bills to get us out of the control of the European Union. I make the point now—it is rather similar to that of my noble friend—that it is highly unlikely that the Government will accept this amendment. If it prevails, we will potentially be into a constitutional issue.

Therefore, one has to ask what options are likely to occur in the event of this House passing this amendment and, as my noble friend has just suggested, the other House passing it back to us, with the Government standing firm. There are three options. First, the Government could do nothing and concede the situation, but I think that that is highly unlikely. To lose control of the Bill at this stage on this issue would be very questionable wisdom on the part of the Government. Secondly, they could create 100 Peers. That is unlikely as well and would be rather dramatic at this stage. Thirdly, they could call a general election. That option should be under strong consideration by the Government at the moment. Through a vote of confidence in the Commons or whatever, they could have it out in the well-known democratic way of doing things—through a general election. I want to put on the record that there should be one round of ping-pong and then we should call a general election.

[Lord Warner]

My Lords, I wish to speak in support of the amendment. I tabled a similar amendment in Committee which was rather less demanding than this one, but the Government dispatched it extremely briskly.

I suggest that this amendment might be helpful to the Government. The idea that all the special interest groups affected by these negotiations—the different sectors, companies and pressure groups—will sit still, while stuff comes out of the EU about the possibility of doing damage to their particular interests and concerns, is fanciful. If the Minister and the Government do not have any structured way of reporting back to Parliament, we will find that many of those people will lobby your Lordships’ House and there will be a demand for a huge number of Parliamentary Questions, as well as demands for debates, to deal with the latest set of rumours about a particular sector, industry or agency which may be being transferred back to Europe. The EMA would be a good example and Euratom is another. Therefore, the Government might find that their life was made a bit easier if there was a structured way of reporting back to Parliament about the progress that was being made, especially if it was reasonably detailed and told some of these interest groups what was going on in the negotiations.