Trade etc. in Dual-Use Items and Firearms etc. (Amendment) (EU Exit) Regulations 2019

Lord Stevenson of Balmacara Excerpts

Tuesday 26th March 2019 Lords Chamber

That leads me to my final point. It is a depressing reality of leaving the European Union that the Government are indicating that we will remove ourselves from a network of 27 other nations, in which we have effectively led debates about the regulation of dual-use weaponry for our defence. The European Union will have a list of technologies and we may well have a stand-alone list. We will leave a network with a unified system of processes for the determination of the capability of those systems, and we will have a stand-alone process. We will leave an integrated licensing system, and we will have to devise our own. Those three areas show the potential weakness of the United Kingdom compared to being part of a unified bloc. The reality is that we will have to be part of that bloc, aligned with it or distinctly separate from it. Since the Government have indicated that they wish to have a treaty on security and defence, it is fairly obvious to me that as soon as we leave the European Union we will be negotiating to realign ourselves with the three systems we will be leaving. It is a rather depressing scenario for our defence, but it is perhaps symptomatic of the process that is under way in leaving the European Union. If the Minister is able to clarify those points, I will be most grateful.

[Lord Stevenson of Balmacara (Lab)]

My Lords, I am again grateful to the Minister for her comprehensive introduction to this SI. I follow the noble Lord, Lord Purvis, on a number of points and look forward to the responses to them.

I was puzzled by why the version of the SI that we have is not the corrected version, but I think time has probably defeated us on that. I look forward to seeing the final version when it comes out. Having to rerun this debate so quickly might be a little otiose, but it is always a pleasure to have these debates.

My question is slightly broader, and it may be better answered in a letter. The SI concerns the need to amend domestic and directly applicable EU legislation so that it continues to function in relation to the way in which these types of weapons are exported. I could not pick up from what the Minister said—this is why I suggest she might write to us—where this fits into the broader system we set up in early 2000 to try to make sure that exports of weapons as weapons are properly controlled. At that stage it involved three departments of state, but it presumably now involves four. Who has control of that? Are those systems fully operational, and is there any issue there? In a sense, I am confident that there is not, but there is growing concern about the way in which weapons have been used in certain areas. Rather than being used in genuine defence situations, they appear to have been used in internal conflicts and in other scenarios, which was never intended. Therefore, the problem might be that the dual-use material here might also fall into that category, and I wonder whether the Minister can confirm that the broad structure that is there to protect exporters but also to protect our own systems will apply. If so, exactly how will that work in practice?

Secondly, on the same theme, the Explanatory Memorandum makes relatively light work of the new pro forma licences that will be available in the UK to deal with these goods. I do not need a detailed response tonight but I would be interested to know a little more about how these will work in practice. “Pro forma” can be shorthand for not requesting a very detailed exposition from the exporter. I hope that that is not the case. I assume that pro forma means that the licences will be pre-printed and relatively easy to fill in, but I would be grateful to have confirmation of that. What is the system? Where do they go? What are we looking for here? Are these materials are being created under a very deep cut through the system? Will the system track back over rules of origin? Will we be clear where they originated from and where their final destination is likely to be? Presumably all those things will be in a system at some point. Will they be clearly written up and submitted properly, and, if so, to whom, and will they cover all the points that I have made?

[Baroness Fairhead]

My Lords, I shall try to address the questions directly. Turning to the concern raised by the noble Lord, Lord Purvis of Tweed, I can confirm that controls will apply to cyber capability materials when they are exported to the Isle of Man.