Telecommunications Infrastructure (Leasehold Property) Bill

Debate between Lord Stevenson of Balmacara and Baroness Garden of Frognal

Report stage & Report stage (Hansard) & Report stage (Hansard): House of Lords
Monday 29th June 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord Stevenson of Balmacara (Lab) [V]]

My Lords, Amendment 4 is in my name and that of my noble friend Lord Livermore. The amendment is an attempt to get the Government to say more about what happens to people who feel that they qualify for an upgrade to the standard set, apparently, by the USO, which is 10 megabits per second. Who pays for what, and what alternatives exist, such as the perhaps too little-known community fibre partnerships?

Shortly after Committee, I received an email from someone caught up in this issue. He told me about his experiences, which, I suspect, are not unique. He had to prove, first, that his existing service fell below the standards set by the USO. The official figures seemed to indicate that he was receiving a better service, and therefore did not qualify—apparently quite a common mistake. Who decides this? It seems that Openreach is both judge and jury in its own case. What rights do individuals have?

Having proved that he did in fact fall below the USO, alternatives were suggested to my correspondent, but they proved technically infeasible. He was, therefore, left with no option but to consider a co-payment approach that would cost him just over £18,000—not an insubstantial sum.

None of this seems very fair, so I have some questions. What alternatives do people living in isolated, and indeed not so isolated, houses have? Who decides on co-payment costs: what they are and how they should be shared? The legislation suggests “reasonable” costs: who defines “reasonable”? Is there any appeal or ombudsman process to this? What role might community fibre partnerships play in sharing costs and offering a better service? Should they not be given more prominence than they have had until now, in this area?

I do not necessarily need a detailed response to these questions. I know that the department is already in correspondence with the person who contacted me, and I am grateful for that. A letter would be sufficient at this stage. I will not be pressing this amendment to a vote, but I beg to move.

[The Deputy Speaker (Baroness Garden of Frognal) (LD)]

The noble Lord, Lord Livermore, will not be speaking, so I call the noble Baroness, Lady McIntosh of Pickering.

Corporate Insolvency and Governance Bill

Debate between Lord Stevenson of Balmacara and Baroness Garden of Frognal

Committee stage & Committee: 1st sitting (Hansard) & Committee: 1st sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Tuesday 16th June 2020 Lords Chamber

[The Deputy Chairman of Committees]

I have received a request to speak after the Minister from the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson of Balmacara. We were unable to hear him earlier due to a technical error.

[Lord Stevenson of Balmacara [V]]

My Lords, I want to make a brief point. The Minister’s response was interesting but very much couched in the existing paradigm. We seem to be in a situation where, as somebody said, the Government have lifted the lid on the debate over how we work out what goes into the insolvency waterfall, as it were, and how to compensate those who lose out as a result of that compression. Pensions should be part of wages and salary; they should not be where they are. Small businesses always seem to suffer. Thirty per cent is just a figure; it is beneficial but it does not go to the heart of the problem of how we deal with creditors and who comprises the neediest in terms of the analysis of what must be paid back and how that should be organised.

As the Minister was trying to argue, I think, there may be a short-term fix to get this thing back on the road, but these reforms will not be sufficient to resolve the inadequacies of the present arrangement. Does she agree that the time has come—but perhaps it is already too late—to review this area critically, with particular reference to issues such as debtor-in-possession financing? Obviously, there is a crisis because of Covid-19; that crisis provides an opportunity to say that we need to look at this issue again. This would be a good time to do so.

Higher Education and Research Bill

Debate between Lord Stevenson of Balmacara and Baroness Garden of Frognal

3rd reading (Hansard): House of Lords
Tuesday 4th April 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord Stevenson of Balmacara]

My Lords, I gather from the Public Bill Office that the Bill may have broken all records for the number of amendments tabled during its passage. That is an indication of the interest it generated across the House, which allowed the House to play a full and important role, as just mentioned by the Minister, as we scrutinised every clause and, indeed, virtually every line.

The Minister was kind to say that he felt that the Bill had been improved in this process. Ministers do not always feel that way about Bills that have been torn to pieces and not always put back together in the form that they originally liked. He is right that there were things we could do with the Bill to make it, within the context of its overall shape and form, slightly better and more accommodating of the needs of the sector it was intending to regulate. As the Minister says, there is further to go and perhaps it will change again, but we have certainly made a lot of progress. My noble friend Lord Watson said earlier on another Bill that the work we had done here is what we do best. It is something your Lordships’ House should continue to do.

I add my thanks to those expressed by the Minister, starting with him and his colleagues—the noble Lords, Lord Young and Lord Prior, and the noble Baroness, Lady Goldie, who all contributed to various areas within the Bill—for their unfailing courtesy and willingness to meet and, of course, to write. We have the epistolary Minister in front of us, who writes letters almost as easily as he breathes. We benefited a lot from those because they were very detailed and gave us a lot of information. We also appreciate, as has been mentioned, the substantial involvement of the Minister for Universities and Science in the other place, who, unusually, is not here today but has been seen around as we have discussed the Bill.

I also thank the Bill team. They were very good at organising meetings and often anticipated what we needed. But they also produced some very helpful factsheets, which have not been mentioned but I found very useful. These were necessary, because for those not involved in higher education it was a bit difficult to get down into the detail of the Bill. The factsheets were very useful in exemplifying what was meant by the various regulatory frameworks and what the architecture would do in practice, and we found them very helpful.

My Front-Bench team was superb. I am grateful to my noble friends Lord Watson and Lord Mendelsohn, who covered large areas of the Bill and obtained many of the concessions now in it. Our legislative assistant, Molly Critchley—we have only one—was extraordinary and superb and kept us going with grids and other materials so necessary for an effective Opposition, as well as dealing with the Public Bill Office and all those amendments. We are very grateful for its work as well in that respect.

One of the greatest pleasures of the Bill has been the experience of working closely with the other groups in the House. We quickly discovered that our views on the Bill were shared by the Liberal Democrats and a substantial number of Cross-Benchers, and indeed some Members on the Government Benches. We found that by meeting regularly and sharing intelligence about what Ministers were saying in bilateral meetings, we could make better progress than perhaps would otherwise have been the case. As I approach the end of my current spell of active Front-Bench responsibilities in your Lordships’ House, the close working relationship we built up over the Bill is one of the memories I will cherish the most.

[Baroness Garden of Frognal (LD)]

My Lords, I add the thanks of the Liberal Democrat Benches to the Ministers—the noble Viscount, Lord Younger of Leckie, the noble Lords, Lord Prior of Brampton and Lord Young, and the noble Baroness, Lady Goldie—who have given such detailed contributions throughout some very tough debates on the Bill. I echo the appreciation expressed by the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, to the Bill team for their engagement, briefings and meetings—and, indeed, their patience—in the course of the Bill.

We are most grateful that the Government have accepted and introduced so many amendments to the Bill, and we live in hope that the amendments agreed by this House will be confirmed by the Commons when the Bill returns to them. These include amendments on the issue of international students, on which the noble Lord, Lord Patten of Barnes, has a compelling article in today’s Guardian; to the teaching excellence framework; on safeguards for the quality of new providers; and on encouraging students to vote. We look forward to hearing the progress of my noble friend Lord Addington’s proposals for guidance for disabled students, and we hope that the Bill more generally will offer more opportunity to adult and part-time students.

Across the House we have all understood the need for teaching in universities to be accorded the same regard as research, but have sought ways which would encourage, rather than brand, institutions. We have seen it as imperative to maintain the worldwide respect of the UK’s higher education, while addressing any areas of shortcoming. I hope that the amended Bill will ensure that both teaching and research continue to flourish and offer learners—young, adult and, indeed, old—opportunities to develop and progress. We wish the ill-named Office for Students and the better-named UKRI every success, in the interests of the country, international collaboration and the individuals who work and achieve within our higher education sector.

I thank my noble friend Lord Storey for his tireless support and invaluable contributions on this and the Technical and Further Education Bill, and Elizabeth Plummer in our Whips’ Office, who provided us with immensely useful briefings. As the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, said, we have certainly benefited from close co-operation with the Labour Benches and the Cross Benches, as well as those on the Government Benches who shared some of our concerns. Collaboratively, we have left the Bill much better than how it reached us. Once again, I express the thanks of these Benches for the way in which scrutiny has been conducted, and the hope that the final Bill may reflect the wide- ranging expertise and contributions of your Lordships’ House.

Higher Education and Research Bill

Debate between Lord Stevenson of Balmacara and Baroness Garden of Frognal

Report: 3rd sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Monday 13th March 2017 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Garden of Frognal]

My Lords, I added my name to this amendment and spoke to it in previous stages of the Bill. I will be brief; in any event, the noble Baroness, Lady Deech, set out a comprehensive argument as to why this is so important. Who would have thought that it was important in this country to champion freedom of speech? Sadly, obviously that has become necessary. We are living in strange times. We have heard tales of students closing down free speech, and universities have taken remarkably little action over some issues when freedom of speech should have been protected.

It is difficult. There are obviously grey areas between what is lawful and what is not. As the noble Baroness said, we must not in any way encourage hate speech or incitement to violence but university students should be subject to ideas they find uncomfortable and be in a safe place where they can address them without those ideas immediately being shut down. This amendment also includes students unions, so it should help activities and events organised by students to make quite sure that they too encourage freedom of speech. It is a precious and valued part of our national life, and it is currently under threat. This amendment would add powers to ensure that we preserve it.

[Lord Stevenson of Balmacara]

My Lords, this is a very important debate. We are grateful to the noble Baroness, Lady Deech, for raising again with such powerful arguments the point she has been making consistently throughout Second Reading and Committee about the need to focus on this and get it right in the legislation. This issue is at the heart of what we really think about universities and higher education providers more generally. As the noble Baroness, Lady Garden, said, it is almost shocking to think that the understanding we have of what constitutes a university does not read across to what actually happens on the ground. The stories are legion and very unpleasant, and in many cases almost too awful to talk about in these circumstances.

Higher Education and Research Bill

Debate between Lord Stevenson of Balmacara and Baroness Garden of Frognal

Report: 2nd sitting (Hansard - continued): House of Lords
Wednesday 8th March 2017 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Garden of Frognal (LD)]

My Lords, I support Amendments 126 and 127 in the names of the noble Lord, Lord Lucas, and my noble friend Lord Willis. I accept the arguments that the noble Lord set out clearly and I look forward to the Minister’s reply.

I also add my support for Amendment 130, as I did in Committee. As we have already discussed, those on non-permanent contracts may find it more difficult to deliver quality teaching with all the uncertainties hanging over them, and it would be useful to have data to see whether that is in fact the case. The reverse situation with lifetime tenure tended to have the effect of too much certainty of employment, which could lead to a lack of incentive to devote time and trouble to quality teaching, but tenure is not really a problem that we have to address these days. The employment status of staff and the staff to student ratio are both significant factors in teaching. I hope that the Minister will be able to accept this amendment and I look forward to his reply.

[Lord Stevenson of Balmacara (Lab)]

My Lords, I support the amendments in the names of the noble Lords, Lord Lucas and Lord Willis, which were explained very well by the noble Lord. They would contribute to a better understanding of all the issues that have arisen during the course of the Bill and would be a source of good data for the future as we see how the system being brought into play works in practice.

My Amendment 130 stems from Clause 61, which would place a duty on the relevant body or the Office for Students to put in a series of measures in relation to data that are to be published. The requirements are not very detailed—there is broad discretion—but the broader areas relate to student entrants, the number of education providers of different types, the number of persons who promote the interests of students and a good range of other things. Curiously, it does not really go down into the detail of some of the mechanics mentioned by the noble Baroness, Lady Garden, when she spoke on behalf of the noble Lord, Lord Willis, and these are the issues picked up in my amendment. It happened to be topical because, when the Committee stage took place, there was an investigation into the use of part-time, non-permanent and permanent staff in higher education on zero-hours contracts—I think that was the term used. This amendment at least points in that direction but I think that it has a wider resonance, and I look forward to hearing the Minister’s response.

Technical and Further Education Bill

Debate between Lord Stevenson of Balmacara and Baroness Garden of Frognal

Committee: 3rd sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Wednesday 1st March 2017 Grand Committee

[Baroness Garden of Frognal]

My Lords, this is a probing amendment because I am well aware that issues of VAT are somewhat outside the scope of the Department for Education. However, it is an issue that keeps recurring and it does no harm to raise it again occasionally. The purpose is to equalise the arrangement for VAT refunds between schools and colleges. Currently, colleges, schools and academies are all required to pay VAT on their purchases but schools are subsequently reimbursed for these costs. The Sixth Form Colleges Association argues that:

“The Government’s historic defence for the absence of a VAT refund scheme for … Colleges has been that the VAT costs of … Colleges are taken into account as part of their up-front funding allocation. But with the introduction of the new 16-19 funding formula, all 16-19 providers (including school and academy sixth forms, free schools and … Colleges) are now funded in the same way, using the same methodology. We welcome the steps that have been taken to equalise the funding arrangements … Yet schools, academies and free schools continue to benefit from a mechanism to recover their VAT costs, while …Colleges do not”.


A recent survey indicated that the average college pays some £300,000 a year in VAT. This is obviously a significant amount being taken away from the front-line education of students in a way that is not comparable in schools and academies. Apparently, it would cost around £31 million each year to refund the VAT costs of colleges—but perhaps I should not have mentioned that.

The parliamentary Library briefing on the funding of 16-19 education indicates some key points. In 2010, the Government made a commitment to “fairer post-16 funding”—closing the funding gap between 16-19 education in schools and that in colleges. This was set out in a White Paper called The Importance of Teaching. However, the Government do not seem to have followed this up. There was a ray of hope in an Answer given by David Cameron when he was Prime Minister to a Question from Ian Swales who was then the Liberal Democrat MP for Redcar—those happy days. He asked why colleges had to pay VAT while schools and academies did not. The Prime Minister replied that he would look carefully at what had been raised, particularly in respect of free school meals for sixth form colleges and for secondary schools. He added that it was very welcome that children in infant schools would not have to pay for school meals. He then said:

“I will look carefully at his point about VAT”.—[Official Report, Commons, 9/10/13; col. 158.]


However, looking carefully did not seem to mean that much happened afterwards.

This seems to be an anomaly which could and should be rectified. It would bring considerable benefit to the education of young people and adults in further education bodies, be they sixth form colleges or further education colleges. I raise it again just to see whether there is a more positive response from the Minister. I beg to move.

[Lord Stevenson of Balmacara]

My Lords, I support the amendment; it is a probing amendment in a complex area. Of course the matter is not in the hands of the Minister who is due to respond to it, because it is a matter that is jealously guarded by the Chancellor of the Exchequer, who after all is responsible for tax receipts. In my experience, the issue is very complicated, not least because of history and practice. There may be a strand of European ideology built into this as well, which may reach a conclusion in a couple of years’ time—or not, as the case may be.

The basic principles of the VAT system are very straightforward: a trading operation has to trade with the full weight of VAT on it, and expenditure on it is recouped against subsequent users and from those who purchase the goods and services provided. Those things that are not deemed to be trading do not attract VAT, but equally they cannot be redeemed against the VAT that has been incurred in the purchase and preparation of them.

As the noble Baroness, Lady Garden, said, those bodies exposed to the full weight of VAT on their non-trading activities suffer a 20% penalty for the work that they are doing, and that is money that could be properly reinvested. That is a sound case and I am sure it has exercised Ministers before. I look forward to hearing the response.

Higher Education and Research Bill

Debate between Lord Stevenson of Balmacara and Baroness Garden of Frognal

Committee: 6th sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Wednesday 25th January 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord Stevenson of Balmacara]

My Lords, again, my noble friend Lord Dubs is not able to be present because he is attending another event, which I mentioned earlier. I am also aware that neither the noble Baroness, Lady Jones of Moulsecoomb, nor the noble Lord, Lord Macdonald of River Glaven, can be here today, but I know that the noble Baroness, Lady Garden of Frognal, will make some remarks that will at least encompass those of the noble Lord, Lord Macdonald.

The amendment would disapply the statutory Prevent duty set in the Counter-Terrorism and Security Act 2015 in so far as it applies to higher education institutions. The reason for that is that we place a strong accent on—and we will discuss in a later group of amendments —the question of how and in what circumstances we can make higher education institutions, and in particular universities, centres in which the practice of freedom of speech and the prevention of unlawful speech are routine and built into their very fabric and operations.

When Parliament discussed the then Counter-Terrorism and Security Act Bill in 2015, there was considerable doubt about whether it should extend to universities because it imposed a duty on universities to have due regard to the need to prevent people being drawn into terrorism. It created a structure involving monitoring and enforcement of the Prevent duty and further mandated the co-operation of academic staff in the Channel referral process.

Accompanying government guidance has exacerbated concerns. While universities are not the only institutions affected by the statutory Prevent duty, the regulation of lawful speech and assembly in these institutions carries particular concern. Our higher education institutions, as I have said, should provide a space for the free and frank exchange of ideas. These ideas should be challenged through robust argument and not suppressed. The Joint Committee on Human Rights concluded, as part of its legislative scrutiny of the 2015 Act, that, because of the importance of freedom of speech and academic freedom in the context of university education, the entire framework that rests on the new Prevent duty is simply not appropriate for application to universities.

Having said that, university staff are bound by the law, including the requirement to disclose information to the police when they know or believe it could assist in the prevention of acts of terrorism. The removal of the statutory Prevent duty in universities would not remove the responsibility of staff and institutions to co-operate with police to tackle suspected criminality. The amendment would remove a heavy-handed structure designed to restrict lawful speech. Suppressing unpleasant or offensive views is not only illiberal, it is often counterproductive and risks pushing ideas into the shadows where they are less likely to be effectively challenged. I beg to move.

[Baroness Garden of Frognal]

My Lords, I added my name to the list, as the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, said, in the absence of my noble friend Lord Macdonald of River Glaven, who has overriding university commitments. He is a great expert in this area and has briefed me.

The application of Prevent to the university sector is different from its application to any other category of public body. In a university, the Prevent duty has the wholly unwanted effect of undermining an essential pillar of the very institution it is supposed to be protecting to the wider detriment of civil society. First, universities have a pre-existing statutory duty under Section 43 of the Education (No. 2) Act 1986,

“to ensure that freedom of speech within the law is secured for members, students and employees of the establishment and for visiting speakers”.

Secondly, because of the foundational importance of free expression to intellectual inquiry and therefore to the central purpose of a university, which cannot function in its absence, it cannot be appropriate, in the university context, to seek to ban speech that is otherwise perfectly lawful, as the Prevent duty requires it to do.

The Prevent duty requires universities to target lawful speech by demanding that universities target non-violent extremism, defined in the Prevent guidance as,

“vocal or active opposition to fundamental British values, including democracy, the rule of law, individual liberty and mutual respect and tolerance of different faiths and beliefs”.

If applied literally as a proscription tool in universities this definition would close down whole swathes of legitimate discourse conducted in terms that represent no breach whatever of the criminal law. It is very difficult to imagine any radicalising language that a university should appropriately ban that does not amount to criminal speech in its own right, such as an incitement to violence, or to racial or religious hatred and so on. These categories of unlawful speech should therefore be banned by university authorities to comply with pre-existing law. To do so is entirely consistent with free expression rights and academic freedom. But banning incitement speech is sufficient. Apart from anything else, it is this speech that is more genuinely “radicalising”. We do not need Prevent in universities to protect ourselves. We need just to apply the current criminal law on incitement.

In the university context, “radicalising” speech that is not otherwise criminal should be dealt with through exposure and counterargument. Universities should be places where young and not so young people can be exposed to views and ideas with which they disagree or find disturbing, unpleasant and even frightening, but be able to address them calmly, intellectually and safely. Freedom of speech should be an essential part of the university experience.

Higher Education and Research Bill

Debate between Lord Stevenson of Balmacara and Baroness Garden of Frognal

Committee: 5th sitting (Hansard - continued): House of Lords
Monday 23rd January 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord Stevenson of Balmacara]

That is the second speediest moving of an amendment I have heard so far in Committee. I will be almost as brief, since we have alluded to the fact, if we have not specifically mentioned it, that the answer to a lot of our problems about the validations issue, which will come up in both this and the following group, where there is a clause stand part, and the power of validation of last resort being given to the Office for Students is to pick up the fact that the CNAA, of blessed memory, still exists, in rump form, in the Open University. That is where all its functions and assets were transferred—not that it had very many assets, I am sure—at the time of its dissolution, around the time that the polytechnics were given their degree-awarding powers and we abolished the binary line, effectively. So we have a situation in which it would be possible, I think, to obtain a validator of last resort at very little cost and certainly at no considerable worry in terms of new structures or arrangements. It would certainly resolve one of the issues that is devilling the question of the powers of the OfS, and I very much hope that this amendment will be considered very carefully.

[Baroness Garden of Frognal]

My Lords, in the absence of the noble Baroness, Lady Wolf, I will speak to Amendment 311, in her name and mine. We support the option of identifying a central validation body. The current system of awarding bodies works well, although it is recognised that protectionist practices are sometimes adopted on both sides. We therefore agree that validating bodies should commit to competition, diversity and innovation, although that should not mean that all comers must be validated. Expertise in validation lies in the objective and impartial appraisal of an institution’s capacity to deliver and maintain appropriate standards of quality and student experience.

While the precise terms of such an arrangement will be decided between the provider and the OfS, the amendment would require any such arrangement to make specific provision for the national validating body to be able to refuse to validate a qualification if it has concerns about the quality of higher education provided. There is much merit in the proposal of the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, for using the Open University as a validator of last resort. It is a body with very wide-ranging expertise and would be a respected body for the task—much more appropriate than the Office for Students itself.

Higher Education and Research Bill

Debate between Lord Stevenson of Balmacara and Baroness Garden of Frognal

Committee: 5th sitting (Hansard - continued): House of Lords
Monday 23rd January 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord Stevenson of Balmacara]

My Lords, I think we can be brief on this one. It is a continuation of the debate that started two or three days ago to try to put flesh on the bones of the ideal which the Government say they have—and we certainly share—which is that higher education in future should be less regimented and less dominated by the three-year traditional degree taken full-time by students who come straight from school. We should try to open up the provision that is available in higher education, and made by higher education providers, to ensure that equal parity is given to those who wish to study part time, and in particular mature students who very often need to be more flexible in what they do. At the moment, they are disappearing too fast from the statistics, and we need to try and get them back.

This issue has been raised before in terms of the hierarchy of government policy in relation to the Office for Students, and is now down at the level of access and participation plans. The amendments seek to ensure that the governing bodies of institutions can and will take measures to enable flexible provision and allow students to undertake part-time courses, particularly to suit those who may be mature. I beg leave to move.

[Baroness Garden of Frognal (LD)]

My Lords, I have tabled Amendment 237 in this group, which complements the words of the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson. With the collapse in part-time student numbers, this would ensure that the Office for Students has a duty to ensure that equality of opportunity is not neglected for those whose only opportunity to study is via part-time provision and at a later stage in life. It would also provide an assessment as to whether the Government’s new initiatives, such as the extension of maintenance loans to part-time students, are having the desired effect of boosting current numbers.

We remain concerned throughout the Bill that the opportunities for mature and part-time students should not be neglected. Putting them in the Bill will ensure that their contribution to higher education is fully considered.

Higher Education and Research Bill

Debate between Lord Stevenson of Balmacara and Baroness Garden of Frognal

Committee: 3rd sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Monday 16th January 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord Stevenson of Balmacara]

My Lords, in the absence of the noble Baroness, Lady Royall, and with her consent, I shall introduce her amendment. I am grateful to the noble Baroness, Lady Garden of Frognal, and the noble Lords, Lord Judd and Lord Lexden, all of whom are in their places, for their support.

This amendment was moved in Committee in another place by my honourable friend Paul Blomfield. It raises an issue he has been concerned about and has experience of, in that he sits for a constituency in Sheffield which is alleged to have the highest number of students who are registered to vote. The underlying issue is the move to individual electoral registration under which all of us are required to sign up individually to vote. This has had a huge impact not only on family households, where many people have dropped off the register, but on the practice which had been going on for many years in universities. The standard way in which that operated was that universities which had halls of residence, or at least organised accommodation for students, registered them en bloc. That, unfortunately, has been outlawed and there is a real danger that students will not be on an electoral register—not necessarily the one where the university is, but any one.

That has two implications. It is important that people should be registered to vote. If you do not have a chance to vote, you are not a part of the overall democratic process. That is a bad thing, particularly for students and young people, who should be brought in at the earliest opportunity—perhaps even younger than today—in order to ensure that they get into the habit of voting and participate as a result. It is a particular issue for universities, which will not have the voice of those who are participating at university in the wider democratic process. There are two sides to this.

If students are not registered in the university or higher education institution they are at, those constituencies will not only be disadvantaged in terms of the representation of people who live and operate in those places but will shrink, which will affect the size of constituencies and therefore have an impact on the way in which they are drawn up. Many issues arise from the initial proposal.

The background to the particularity of this amendment is that attempts were made to see whether universities could help and assist in this. It was found early on that universities already collect most of the data needed to register students. All that is needed is a national insurance number. This is not routinely collected by universities because students are not employed there.

Obviously there are ways in which one could pose questions to students at points in the process of being at university without being intrusive. The example I have here is from the University of Sheffield—but there are other institutions—which worked with the city’s electoral registration officer and introduced questions for students at the time they were registering or reregistering for their courses. The first question was, “Do you wish to register to vote?”. If they said no, no further action was taken; and if they said yes, they would like to register to vote, they had to provide their national insurance number. The results were amazing: 64% of students opted to register to vote within Sheffield, although there were difficulties in getting some students to find their national insurance number—a problem not confined to students; I can never remember where mine is. I have now memorised it because I got so cross about being unable to complete forms online at the time I wanted to do them. I now have it and can give it to you now, if you want it, without breaching any personal information, of course.

The Cabinet Office then made a change and issued new guidance, which meant that it did not have to have a national insurance number. This was a sensible and unexpected move in support of the process by the Cabinet Office, and I am delighted it happened. We have an opportunity to help in that process. It has a more general particularity than just this Bill, but it is an opportunity that we should take to do it.

The amendment would create an opportunity within which universities could help participation using their function, not as a public sector body but as a public body with wider interests in the public well-being, in order to achieve the good outcome of having more people registered to vote. I beg to move.

[Baroness Garden of Frognal]

My Lords, I have added my name to this amendment for the good reasons set out by the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, to ensure that all eligible students are provided with an opportunity to opt in to the electoral register at the location in which they are studying. Since I have been in the Chamber I have been handed a helpful briefing from the Cabinet Office on this very amendment, which points out that as part of the Government’s Every Voice Matters campaign, the Minister for the Constitution is holding a series of round tables, including with the higher and further education sector, to assess what barriers there may be to electoral registration and what the Government could do to address them, so this issue is under active discussion.

As the noble Lord has said, under the old system of block registration, universities could go quite some way in assisting their students to become enrolled, but under individual electoral registration that has ceased to exist and the focus is on individuals to register. The benefit is that this system is more resilient to fraud, has a reduced risk of a student being registered at two locations, and—which I think is rather more important—has a reduced risk of a student being able to vote at several locations. But as we know, when someone is moving house, registering to vote is a low priority and many people realise that they did not get around to registering only when it comes to election time and it is already too late. Analysis by the Electoral Commission shows that areas with a high concentration of certain demographics, including students, private renters and especially young adults, where people move on a regular basis are particularly in danger of having low registration numbers. It is therefore important that special care is taken to prevent at-risk groups failing to register and have their say at an election.

We are well aware that universities already encourage students to register and vote, as the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, spelled out. Sheffield has been successful in increasing the number of students registered and many other institutions are already taking steps to encourage young people to ensure that they are on the register. Surely it is vital that the student voice should be heard in the democratic process, and that young people should get into the habit earlier rather than later of making their voices heard in elections. For all those reasons, I hope that favourable attention will be given to this amendment to try to make sure that as many students as possible are both registered to vote and then use their vote.

Higher Education and Research Bill

Debate between Lord Stevenson of Balmacara and Baroness Garden of Frognal

Committee: 1st sitting (Hansard - continued): House of Lords
Monday 9th January 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord Stevenson of Balmacara]

Can I just confirm that that is exactly what I meant?

[Baroness Garden of Frognal]

My Lords, I add my wholehearted support to these amendments. Further education is all too often the Cinderella of the education world, yet further education colleges do an absolutely phenomenal job across a very wide range of students and subjects, so having them represented on this body is absolutely essential. I also support the adult and part-time education students, who form a critical and very important part of the student body. They have different sorts of views and needs from those who are the typical 18 year-olds going to university.

There is also the point that the noble Lord, Lord Lucas, made about vocational and professional education, which often links very closely with higher education institutions but has a different sort of ethos and different cohorts of people. All these amendments to add to the membership of the OfS board are critical, and I hope that the Minister will look favourably on these amendments.

Education (Student Support) (Amendment) Regulations 2015

Debate between Lord Stevenson of Balmacara and Baroness Garden of Frognal

Monday 25th January 2016 Lords Chamber

[Lord Stevenson of Balmacara (Lab)]

My Lords, I start by declaring an interest; I have two children currently enrolled in British universities. I think both attend, although I am not absolutely sure about the second one—but I want to make sure that that is on the record. I am also very grateful for the excellent work of the Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee, which alerted your Lordships’ House to the regulations that we are discussing in its 18th report.

The Government are proposing, under these regulations, to take grants away from around 500,000 of this country’s most disadvantaged students and replace them with maintenance loans, to be paid back when their earnings exceed £21,000 a year. The Government estimate that this will save £2.3 billion by 2020-21. My first point is that a change of this magnitude, which could affect more than 500,000 people, ought to have been made by primary legislation. According to the House of Commons Library, there were 395,000 students on full grant and 135,000 on partial grant in 2014-15. This SI affects a very significant number of people.

I checked with our Library over the weekend, and the last higher education Bill to go through your Lordships’ House was in the summer of 2004. Here we have Ministers trying to shut down parliamentary scrutiny by introducing major changes to the negative procedure, when we all know that SIs cannot be amended and that no formal approval is required in either House. It is not a proportionate way of proceeding, even if the powers are in the substantive legislation.

My second point is that this measure was not included in the Conservative Party manifesto. This U-turn comes just four years after grants for students from disadvantaged backgrounds were hailed by the Government as an essential element in their higher education strategy. Could the Minister explain the thinking behind this change of approach, given that the previous higher education Minister, the noble Lord, Lord Willetts, who unfortunately is not in his place, said that ever since tuition fees were raised in 2012, the Government had acknowledged that maintenance grants were central to ensuring that higher education was still accessible for poorer students? The noble Lord said that tuition fee rises were,

“progressive, because they help to encourage people from poorer backgrounds to go to university, because of the higher education maintenance grant”.—[Official Report, Commons, 3/11/10; col. 940.]

This is not of course an isolated proposal but part of a pattern. It mirrors, for example, changes that removed NHS bursaries for nurses and other staff. It has been foreshadowed by changes that the Government have made in the support for further education over the past three or four years.

We put down this regret Motion today to hold the Government to account over what I see as a major policy change. It seems to many observers that the Government have been on the defensive all the way through this process. There was very little detail to be had when the Chancellor first mooted this change in the summer Budget, and not much more in the Autumn Statement. It was only when the National Union of Students raised the alarm about the impact of the policy and threatened a judicial review over the lack of consultation and the failure to publish the equality assessment that we began to see what was going on.

The generation of students entering further and higher education from September 2016 are going to be saddled with even greater debts—or “income-contingent tax liabilities” as the Government like to call them—than they were already likely to be from their course fee loans of £9,000 per annum going up. The IFS said in a press release summarising its briefing note on the summer Budget 2015:

“Students from households with pre-tax incomes of up to £25,000 (those currently eligible for a full maintenance grant) will have a little more ‘cash in pocket’ … But they will also graduate with around £12,500 more debt, on average, from a three-year course. This means that students from the poorest backgrounds are now likely to leave university owing substantially more to the government than their better-off peers”.

The IFS also states:

“The poorest 40% of students going to university in England will now graduate with debts of up to £53,000 from a three-year course”.

Note the use of “debt” rather than “income-contingent tax liabilities”—the IFS certainly calls a spade a spade. All this is backed up by the Sutton Trust, which says:

“Shifting grants to loans may move them off the balance sheet, but it could also put off many low and middle income students and tip the balance against their going to university”.

In a recent publication, million+ says that research from the NUS published last week by Populus shows that parents are concerned that the Government’s plans to scrap the maintenance grant will discourage their children from applying to university. The change could also have a serious impact on postgraduate enrolment, since it is clear that the abolition of grants will increase individual student debt significantly. Indeed, the range of groups affected by these changes is daunting. The equality analysis published last November concedes that black and minority-ethnic students in particular will be disproportionately worse off. As for older learners, it says:

“Mature students will be disproportionately impacted by the policy proposals”.

The Government have also conceded that disabled people will be badly affected by this decision as well as by the decision to delegate responsibility for much of the disabled student allowances schemes to institutions.

The equality analysis also raised the question of discrimination because of concerns among some Muslim students about taking out interest-bearing loans. Can the Minister update us on the discussions which took place during the last Government on the introduction of sharia-compliant loans? Finally, it also states that female students will be particularly affected given their “significant overrepresentation”, as it is described, in populations currently receiving grants.

These damning details from the Government’s own equality analysis should surely give Ministers pause for thought. Does the Minister have anything to offer which might ameliorate these shocking findings? These issues need to be addressed urgently, otherwise any progress towards making higher education more diverse, particularly at postgraduate level, will be jeopardised.

Finally, it is also important to note that this policy does not exist in isolation. The cumulative impact of the rise in tuition fees, the scrapping of maintenance grants and the freezing of the repayment threshold all point towards a more hostile environment for those thinking about higher education. What is driving these panic measures from the Government? Is it a belated recognition that the whole set of financial assumptions about the repayments that underpin the trebling of student fees in 2012 is, as we predicted, producing a black hole for them and for future taxpayers?

Removing maintenance grants makes no economic sense. The IFS conclusion is that this change will not improve government finances in the long term. It states:

“The replacement of maintenance grants … will raise debt for the poorest students, but do little to improve government finances in the long run”.

The IFS points out that the rationale behind this is clearly political. The Government will gain in the short term because current spending on grants counts towards current borrowing—clearly bad—while current spending on loans does not impact on borrowing until the debt is written off at the end of the 30-year repayment period, which is good for current Treasury Ministers. The change helps the Chancellor to balance the books in this Parliament even though it will be at the cost of higher borrowing three decades or so into the future.

On 11 January this year, the Prime Minister gave a speech on life chances, referred to in the previous debate, explaining how the Government intend to transform the lives of the poorest in Britain. He said that his Government’s mission was to,

“look each … child in the eye and say, ‘Your dreams are our dreams. We’ll support you with everything we’ve got’”.

It is a good line and I sincerely wish it were true. But the reality is that there is a growing disconnect between the rhetoric and the action. Scrapping maintenance grants sends out a message that runs counter to any prospect of increased social mobility. This policy will impact heavily on women, the disabled, black and ethnic-minority students and older learners. To cap it all, it will end up being more expensive than the current grants system.

The Government should bring forward a higher education Bill. If we had it here today, we could have been discussing how to realise the wider benefits of having more people educated to degree level in our country and how best to fund that investment in our future prosperity and to properly support every young person in the country to develop themselves to the best of their ability. I challenge the Minister to convince us tonight that these regulations are the right thing to do and that her Government are supporting our young people with everything we have. I beg to move.

[Baroness Garden of Frognal (LD)]

My Lords, I welcome the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, securing a debate on these regulations and join with him in his regrets.

There has been widespread concern at actions the Government are taking which place additional burdens on those least able to accommodate them. The Liberal Democrats will feel particularly outraged at these regulations. As the junior coalition partner, we were notoriously unable to implement our policy of no tuition fees, but we were able to use our influence in government to fend off some of the harsher proposals of our coalition partners, to produce a fairer system for students from lower-income backgrounds and to give incentives and support to those who might be deterred from further learning.

I was a Government Whip in the coalition Government, working for the noble Lord, Lord Willetts, as Universities Minister, who the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, has already quoted. He understood fairness and we were delighted when he said that the proposals would,

“encourage people from poorer backgrounds to go to university, because of the higher education maintenance grant”.—[Official Report, Commons, 3/11/10; col. 940.]

The way in which these changes are being brought in—through the back door, as it were—seems to indicate that the Government are rather ashamed of them, and hoped to sneak them through without having to face the music of their impact. They are, indeed, a backward step.

Of course any additional support in the form of loans is welcome, but that really is not relevant to this argument. Maintenance grants have the great advantage of being non-repayable. The sums, of up to £3,387 a year, certainly do not allow students to live the life of Riley, but they can make all the difference to a student struggling to pay for the necessities of life and study—rent, food, other bills and the items they need for their learning. They have enabled some of the most disadvantaged to participate in higher education, many the first in their families to do so, without the burden of additional debt.

Changing grants to loans is a very significant move for those who will see their university debts soar. I, too, was startled at the Institute for Fiscal Studies warning that,

“The poorest 40% of students going to university in England will now graduate with debts of up to £53,000 from a three-year course, rather than … £40,500”,

which is already an eye-watering amount to this cohort.

Those who will be most deterred by additional debt include those the Government most need to engage in education. Women, for example, tend to be more debt averse than men as well as being a large proportion of this population. Disabled students have the additional deterrent of changes to the disabled students’ allowance, which we were debating only last week. Adult learners and black and minority ethnic learners are more aware of the burden of loans, which they are unlikely ever to be able to repay.

What benefit will this bring to government finances? It will be disproportionately little in comparison with the damage it will do to encouraging social mobility and building an inclusive graduate population. Many of these loans will never be repaid anyway, but for the students they will be there as a reminder of a debt instead of a grant that can be long forgotten.

The Government should be facing up to skills shortages in the population and tackling the increasing divisions between rich and poor. We need to encourage learners to improve their skills and knowledge, to be ambitious, to fulfil their potential and thus to make a greater contribution to the economy and to the well-being of themselves and the country.

These regulations will do nothing to encourage those from less advantaged parts of society to work hard and achieve. The Government did not need to do this. It was not a manifesto commitment. As the National Union of Students rightly said, the decision is “undemocratic and ill-considered”. There has been no effort at thorough consultation with those people and organisations most affected by the changes.

Would the Minister please clarify for the House the justification for saddling the poorest students with the greatest debt? In coalition, my party argued consistently for measures to encourage—not deter—women, adult learners, ethnic minorities and disabled people. What are this Government doing to encourage these learners? What consultation will be put in place before such a damaging change is inflicted on those learners we most wish to be helped to fulfil their potential?

I urge the Government to think again about these mean-spirited and harmful changes.

Child Safety: Video Games

Debate between Lord Stevenson of Balmacara and Baroness Garden of Frognal

Monday 8th July 2013 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Garden of Frognal]

Again, the noble Baroness makes a very helpful point. There is a lot of information going out to schools in the form of posters. Of course, internet safety is one part of the school curriculum that tries to ensure that young people themselves are aware of what the dangers are. We are getting co-operation, and indeed funding, from the providers.

[Lord Stevenson of Balmacara]

I do not know whether I heard the noble Baroness correctly. I think she said that traffic lights were being introduced on to the packaging for these things. It strikes me that indicating red for danger or red for encouragement might be a difficulty in this area. My main point is that PEGI is an industry-led body and that one increasingly finds that in video games inserts are being used from films and related materials. Is there not a case for trying to get co-ordination across this, and having some sort of accommodation with the BBFC?

[Baroness Garden of Frognal]

The BBFC is indeed involved in this. It has just become the independent reviewer of the content of mobile operators and, as the noble Lord says, there is some overlap between what goes on in the film industry and what goes on in the video games industry. It is a question all the time of trying to keep one step ahead of cunning children, who have a tendency to be one step ahead of their parents.

Education: Student Loans

Debate between Lord Stevenson of Balmacara and Baroness Garden of Frognal

Monday 3rd June 2013 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Garden of Frognal]

The noble Lord mentions the burdensome debt that students are accruing, but I would again stress that they will begin to contribute back for what they have gained from their university education only after they graduate and are earning a salary. We will be monitoring the effect on students from disadvantaged backgrounds. I would also point out that there are very generous forms of mean-tested grants for students, while many universities have instituted all sorts of bursaries to try to make absolutely sure that no student feels disadvantaged because they come from a low-income family.

[Lord Stevenson of Balmacara]

My Lords, students who took out loans under the previous Government pay interest based on the base rate plus 1%—so it is currently 1.5%—whereas those who have taken out loans since 2012 will pay RPI plus 3%, currently amounting 6.3%. Does the Minister agree with the recent HEFCE report which suggests that the new financial system contributed to a 12% reduction in students entering HE last autumn?

[Baroness Garden of Frognal]

Those figures are not holding up as the noble Lord says, because substantial numbers of students are still applying for university. There was of course an increase last year when people applied early, ahead of the new scheme, but the figures we are getting back from the higher education authorities show that the numbers going into higher education are still holding up. We very much hope that the new fee structure will not be a deterrent; in fact, it may well help many of the students whom we most wish to attract to higher education.

Olympic Games: British Companies

Debate between Lord Stevenson of Balmacara and Baroness Garden of Frognal

Tuesday 22nd May 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Stevenson of Balmacara]

My Lords, just to get a flavour of what we are actually talking about, when the Olympic torch started out from Plymouth, LOCOG officials confiscated leaflets advertising an Olympic breakfast at a local café. The officials said that flaming torch bacon and egg baguettes were on the menu, which contradicted their guidelines. According to the Office for Budget Responsibility, GDP is set to grow by 0.1% because of the Olympics. Presumably, that figure would have been much higher if the enterprise of the supplier companies had not been so grievously shackled in their marketing and advertising operations that we have heard about. Is the conclusion that we have to draw from this sorry episode that the Government have missed a golden opportunity here by caving in to LOCOG and to the IOC, to the detriment of our supplier companies?

[Baroness Garden of Frognal]

My Lords, I do not think that there is any question of the Government caving in to LOCOG. We reached agreement with LOCOG and the IOC on the way in which we would frame the Games. I remind the noble Lord that it was his Government who set up all these criteria in the first place. However, I agree that the case of the flaming torch sandwich will live on in the memory.

London Olympic Games and Paralympic Games (Amendment) Bill

Debate between Lord Stevenson of Balmacara and Baroness Garden of Frognal

Tuesday 15th November 2011 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Garden of Frognal]

My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, for tabling this amendment and allowing us to have another lively debate. I am also grateful to him for his comments about the spirit of co-operation and bipartisanship in which this Bill has been conducted. It has been a great pleasure to work with noble Lords in trying to ensure that we all achieve the best results for the Olympic and Paralympic Games.

On the matter of transport, I can assure the House that promotion of public transport is at the heart of our transport strategy for the Games and that detailed plans have already been set out in the Olympic Delivery Authority’s Olympic Transport Plan required by Section 10 of the 2006 Act. Indeed, the opening words of the most recent, June 2011, edition of that plan are:

“London 2012 will be the first ‘public transport’ Games”.

I am grateful to the noble Baronesses, Lady Ford and Lady Grey-Thompson, for their support for public transport, and the use of public transport, in the course of the Games. This might be the moment to reassure the noble Lord, Lord Myners, that Ministers will not use the ORN Games lanes.

Next summer the world will come to London to share in the excitement of the Olympic and Paralympic Games. The Games will draw up to 600,000 ticketed spectators daily to London’s transport system. Many more will come to London and other venue cities to join in the wider celebrations. There will be up to 3 million additional trips in London on the busiest day of the Games, in addition to the 24 million trips normally made. It is the scale of the demands that this volume of visitors will place on our transport system, rather than the specific impacts of the operation of the Olympic route network for the Games family, that drives our strategy of promoting travel by public transport, walking or cycling at Games time. The Olympic route network roads will, as I explained in the Committee debate, almost all be fully open for normal traffic and the temporary traffic management measures necessary to make the network work effectively for the Games family will be implemented in a proportionate and targeted manner so as to minimise the impact on normal business. I am grateful to the noble Baroness, Lady Grey-Thompson, for so clearly setting out, and exploding, some of the myths around transport in London at this time.

Our goal is that all spectators travel to the Games by public transport. We have invested £6.5 billion in transport infrastructure since 2005 to boost London’s transport capacity to enable spectators and visitors to get to their events and to keep London moving. Londoners are already benefitting from this transport legacy in advance of the Games. The improvements to the public transport system already delivered include a 50 per cent increase in Docklands Light Rail capacity with lines extended to Woolwich and Stratford International; extra capacity on the Jubilee line, with the signalling upgrade now complete and additional trains already operating at peak times, with more early in 2012; the new high-speed rail service between St Pancras, Stratford International, and destinations in Kent; refurbished and extended London Overground services on the East London and North London lines; upgrades to national rail services on the Lea Valley and Great Eastern lines; King’s Cross-St Pancras and Stratford regional stations essentially rebuilt and expanded, with step-free access and extra capacity; and step-free access now provided at Southfields, serving the Wimbledon venue, and at Green Park, a vital central transport hub during the Games. I have mentioned those facilities in some detail, given the numerous concerns about the problems of transport in London, to show that an awful lot of work has already taken place to improve transport facilities around the capital.

In addition to these upgrades, additional public transport capacity will be provided specifically at Games time. This includes: later evening services on the London Underground, DLR and national rail services from London, with trains running up to 90 minutes later than normal; a high-frequency Javelin rail shuttle service between St Pancras, Stratford International and Ebbsfleet; direct coach services from a range of cities across England and Wales to the Olympic Park, ExCel and Greenwich Park; park-and-ride services from three sites near the M25; and enhanced river services between central London and Greenwich. As a further encouragement to use public transport, all spectators will receive a free all-zones Travelcard for the day of their Games event ticket. A dedicated Games journey planner on the London 2012 website enables ticket holders to plan and book their journeys well in advance of the Games.

Taxis and private hire vehicles will play an important role at Games time, in particular as a travel option for those with reduced mobility. ODA and its partners are working closely with the industries to assess likely demand, to make them aware of the temporary traffic restrictions that will be in place and to mitigate their impact where possible. They are also working to ensure appropriate provision of pick-up and drop-off points at all of the Games venues as well as key transport interchanges. Information packs are being put together for all taxi and private hire drivers, which will cover the ORN, venues and other details about the Games, ensuring that drivers can operate effectively and make the most of the opportunities that the Games offer. I say to my noble friend Lady Doocey that the packs will be distributed in spring next year. More information will be going out but I hear what she says about the emergency services. We will make further inquiries to ensure that all that is in order and come back to her on that.

The amendment seeks to encourage the use of public transport by those with an Olympic identity and accreditation card. For most of the transport needs of the athletes, officials, media and marketing partners who form the Games family, transport by road along the Olympic route network, mostly in buses and coaches, will, as at previous Games, provide the most convenient and effective means of ensuring that they get reliably to where they need to be each and every time. We listened with great interest to the experience of the noble Baroness, Lady Grey-Thompson, in respect of the transport for the Olympic athletes and the Olympic Games family. We are, of course, encouraging the use of public transport as much as possible. For example, the media will use the Heathrow Express to travel between Heathrow, which is LOCOG’s official port of entry, and central London. Transport for London will be providing access to free public transport travel for all members of the Games family.

The Games will, of course, place unprecedented demands on our public transport system, despite the enhancements to capacity I have described in detail and the normal summer seasonal reduction in background demand that can be expected at this time of year, so it will be necessary to reduce non-Olympic demand at key hotspots at times of high Games demand to keep London moving. The latest surveys and forecasting enable those times and places to be identified and the necessary reductions to be specifically targeted. On the basis of the most recent surveys and forecasts, we now know—noble Lords have already indicated this—that we will need to reduce non-Olympic demand by approximately 30 per cent on average across a number of hotspots on both the road and public transport networks. Larger reductions will be needed on certain days at particular times at specific stations and lines. Further details on those hotspots will be published by TfL at the end of this month, but, just to be clear, we are not looking at a blanket reduction of 30 per cent in non-Olympic demand across the whole of London for the entire Games period.

The noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, asked how we will achieve the public transport reductions and whether we were confident that the necessary reductions will be achieved. There is a rolling programme of tracking research used to estimate the level of reduction that may be achieved in 2012. This gathers information on public awareness, propensity to plan and intention to take action to change travel behaviour during the Games period. A whole host of research goes into trying to ensure that we have the best ideas of where the transport hotspots will be and how we can cope with the additional traffic. TfL has been working with businesses since November last year to encourage them to plan to reduce journeys where possible, and reroute, re-time or change the mode of essential journeys. TfL is already working directly with businesses responsible for more than half a million employees in transport hotspots. This will be supplemented next year by extensive public communications to commuters and the wider public.

Finally, the amendment also calls for proposals to promote public transport use by non-Olympic visitors and tourists. I am aware that behind this may be concerns in some quarters that the Olympic and Paralympic Games will deter non-Games tourists from visiting the UK. This has been indicated in tonight’s debate. The Government are committed to ensuring that the tourism industry maximises the economic benefits provided by the Games. Including new money that has recently been announced from the GREAT campaign, plus private sector support, VisitBritain will invest around £127 million in a new international marketing programme. Over the next four years it is expected to deliver 4.6 million extra visitors from overseas and £2.27 billion in extra visitor spend. We have also recently announced the 20.12 per cent discount initiative which will be launched next year by VisitEngland as part of a campaign to use the Games to boost domestic tourism.

Visit England’s campaign is supported by a £3 million investment from the Olympic budget and is expected to deliver 12,000 new jobs and £480 million in extra spend over three years. At this point, I congratulate the noble Baroness, Lady Ford, and her team on their success in achieving the World Athletics in 2017. If we get all the transport right for the Olympics, then 2017 will be a piece of cake.

I hope that has addressed the points that noble Lords have made in this debate. We hope that the non-Olympic visitors and tourists will of course be able to benefit from the significant enhancements to public transport provisions, and that the Olympic lanes will work as efficiently as intended to get the athletes and the Olympic family to and fro. The noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, asked where the previous reductions have been achieved, and we have looked to previous host cities on the reductions and on travel to get indications of travel demand. Sydney, Salt Lake City and Vancouver have all contributed to helping our plans for assessing the numbers likely to be travelling.

I have something here for the noble Baroness, Lady Doocey, on the emergency services. The Games consultation and engagement team is working with the emergency services to ensure that vehicles attending emergencies can move around the city safely and easily. There will be ongoing discussion about the other vehicles she mentioned, the ones that are not actively engaged on emergency services. That is all being debated and consulted on.

I hope that I have been able to demonstrate that we are well under way in delivering a comprehensive and detailed strategy to promote public transport for the Games while also effectively managing the pressures that will be placed on specific parts of that system. On that basis I hope that the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, will feel able to withdraw his amendment.

[Lord Stevenson of Balmacara]

Perhaps I may ask the noble Baroness to go back a little in her speech. I heard her say something about one-day travelcards being available to Games ticket holders. Can she confirm that?

[Baroness Garden of Frognal]

Yes, there will be travelcards available to ticket holders and to those attending the Games.

[Lord Stevenson of Balmacara]

This is for London only, I assume.

I thank all who have spoken in this debate, particularly my noble friend Lady Ford and the noble Baronesses, Lady Grey-Thompson and Lady Doocey, who shared their expertise in these matters. I am left with three quotes and a conclusion which I would like to cover before we resolve how to take this forward. When the noble Baroness, Lady Grey-Thompson, was talking about modelling, she said that on certain occasions demand is going to exceed supply. That is picked up by the sense of the word hotspot which I assume covers much of the same issue. There is obviously going to be a problem at some point during the Games and we recognise that.

The noble Baroness, Lady Doocey, was worried that emergency service vehicles would be sitting in traffic jams for hours on end, and I hope that she found the Minister’s response helpful. If there are traffic jams, they will not be the only people sitting in them; it is also going to be Londoners and others who wish to go about their ordinary business, including visitors and businesses that may have time-sensitive deliveries to make—for instance newspapers. There is obviously a second concern in that.

The third concern—the one we are all beginning to push at—is that we are making it clear that these will be the world’s first public transport Games, while at the same time recognising that even our enhanced public transport system will not really be able to cope. We have a problem.

Our amendment was an attempt to try to take a little of the potential blame away and bring it back to Parliament. However, I think that it has not found much favour and therefore will not push it further at this stage.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Garden of Frognal]

All spectators will receive a free all-zones travelcard for the day of their Games event ticket, so that will cover the London venues. A dedicated Games journey planner on the London 2012 website will enable ticket holders to plan and book their journeys well in advance of the Games. We are hoping that the all-zones travelcard will be an additional encouragement to the spectators to use public transport.

[Lord Stevenson of Balmacara]

I am grateful for that useful clarification. Let us paint the scenario. The Ministers are trapped in their cars, not in the Olympic lanes, but possibly hovering close to the Olympic network.

London Olympic Games and Paralympic Games (Amendment) Bill

Debate between Lord Stevenson of Balmacara and Baroness Garden of Frognal

Tuesday 25th October 2011 Grand Committee

[Baroness Garden of Frognal]

My Lords, in moving Amendment 3, I will also speak to Amendments 4 and 5 in this group. The amendments address a concern raised by the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee. The 2006 Act provides for the making of advertising and trading regulations. Under the Act, all such regulations, including amending regulations, are subject to the affirmative resolution procedure.

The Bill amends the 2006 Act to provide that advertising and trading regulations other than the first set may instead be made via the negative resolution procedure. This is intended to enable the making of amending regulations if unforeseen events crop up late in the day, such as if it is necessary to move a Games event from one venue to another shortly before the event is due to take place. If the need to amend the regulations arose at this point, such as if a water main serving a venue burst a few days before that venue was scheduled to be used, it would be impracticable to amend the regulations via the lengthy affirmative resolution procedure.

Because the regulations are very detailed and specify precisely the places where, and periods during which, they will apply, it may be necessary to amend them if a venue or the Games schedule has to change. It is not possible, in the abstract, to describe all the incidents that might necessitate such a change, but I emphasise that we are not planning any such amendments. A lot of work has gone into identifying and preparing venues and the event schedule for the Games, and we intend the venues, the schedule, and the regulations that have already been published to remain as they are. A change will be necessary only if unforeseen circumstances such as the burst water main I mentioned occur.

The Delegated Powers Committee accepts the need to amend the 2006 Act to facilitate the amendment of the regulations in such circumstances. However, it is concerned that the extent of the procedural relaxation in the Bill goes further than is necessary. Accordingly, it has recommended that the Bill is amended to provide that the affirmative resolution procedure must be used unless the Minister considers that, by reason of urgency, it is necessary instead to use the negative procedure. As it was always the intention that the negative resolution procedure would be used only where there was an urgent need to do so, the Government are happy to accept the committee’s recommendation and to provide the additional clarification.

The effect of these amendments is that advertising and trading regulations will be made via the negative procedure only if the Minister considers that that is necessary by reason of urgency. In such a case, the regulations will confirm, on their face, that this is the Minister’s view.

In essence, what we mean by “urgency” is that, for reasons of time, it would be impracticable to use the affirmative procedure and it is necessary instead to use the negative procedure. That is likely to be because the amending regulations have to take effect quickly, before the earliest date that affirmative regulations could practicably be made. This would be the case, for example, where the incident necessitating the amendment occurs only a short time before the relevant Games event. Likewise, it would be the case if amending regulations had to be made when Parliament is not sitting. As noble Lords will know, affirmative regulations cannot be made when Parliament is in recess, whereas negative instruments can.

I hope that these amendments and the further explanation that I have set out today provide noble Lords with welcome assurance that the power to amend the regulations via the negative procedure will be used only when that is genuinely necessary. I beg to move.

[Lord Stevenson of Balmacara]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for introducing these amendments. There is obviously sense in having flexibility within the legislation to deal with unforeseen events, and we fully understand why the Government have decided to take these powers. However, as was pointed out in the report of the Delegated Powers Committee, these powers are wide-ranging, and it is important that they be subject to appropriate scrutiny.

The recent Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee report called for assurances that the provision to make these regulations via the negative resolution procedure would be exercised only when there was an urgent need to do so. The Minister reaffirmed that the intention is always to work within the set of advertising and trading regulations laid in Parliament on 10 October, which will be subject to the affirmative procedure. However, the problem with the approach being taken by the Government is that these present regulations are going to be made only in the deepest recess period, July to September 2012, so there is a Catch-22 situation. You can make negative regulations of the type described by the Minister when you cannot make regulations under the affirmative procedure, but because the Houses will be in Recess, neither House would be in a position to exercise its power under the negative resolution procedure in those circumstances. The net effect is to provide the Secretary of State with wide-ranging Henry VIII powers exercisable on his or her assertion that it is an emergency. When the Minister responds, will she enlighten us about why it was decided that the negative/affirmative procedure was appropriate?

It might have been easier to fess up and simply say that, on reflection, the Government take the view that it is necessary for the Secretary of State to have these powers and that some procedure, such as a full report, will occur once the Houses have resumed after the Games have finished. Clearly, we are where we are, so the question really is: what are the urgent situations that could give rise to the need to use this provision? I may be straining at a gnat here, but I have noticed in the documentation that we have been provided with that there are three different variations on what is defined as an urgent situation. The wording of the amendment is that the regulations would be used only if,

“the Secretary of State considers that by reason of urgency it is necessary that they be made”.

The Delegated Powers Committee slightly inflects that and changes the terms. It states that the powers would be needed only when there was an urgent need. The Minister suggested in correspondence, which was copied to several noble Lords, that the amending regulations would be brought forward only to provide flexibility in cases where exceptional circumstances, such as a burst water main, require a change of competition venue. I am not sure that a need for flexibility is by definition an urgency, but I think we understand the sense behind the points made in the correspondence. I do not think at this stage we wish further to oppose this amendment, but it would be helpful if the Minister would write to us with a few examples of where she thinks such a situation might occur so that we have them on record.

[Baroness Garden of Frognal]

My Lords, I would be very happy to do that because this is an area where perhaps a little more clarity could be due. As the noble Lord has indicated, we are introducing these measures at this stage as a matter of pragmatism.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Stevenson of Balmacara]

I thank all noble Lords who took part in this useful and helpful debate. I am very grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Coe, for being present and for sharing his thoughts on this. We are all in a much better place as a result of the discussion. We know more about what the issues are. We support what has been done. There is no question of any destructive view on that. Like my noble friend Lady Billingham, we want to continue to say that, in order to build on what has been achieved and to make sure that these are the greatest Games ever.

There are three points that I would like to leave with the Committee. First, would it be possible at some point for LOCOG to get across—obviously it does not need to be said too widely—what I thought the noble Lord, Lord Coe, said, which was that, given the vast majority of people in the iceberg, as he put it, who come into our Games are going to be able to do so without any let or hindrance, there is not going to be an issue about that? These regulations are at heart back-stop regulations to be used only if there is suspicion. Somehow that has not come across. There has been a sense that somehow we are all under surveillance and are all somehow possibly complicit in some frightful game involving tickets. When you buy a ticket or get a ticket, it may well be covered in beautiful colours and have all sorts of ideograms and other things on it, but you do not really know whether it is the right one or not until you turn up, put it in and it goes through. There is that sense that you are always going to be caught. Can we somehow agree among ourselves, even if we cannot say it publicly, that that is not the main purpose here? The main purpose is to get the touts who are out to disrupt the Games for their own horrible and nefarious purposes. That would be helpful.

Secondly, as the Minister said, we need clarity on a number of things. I do not want to reopen the debate but, for example, on identity, her answer was very firm and clear: people who have tickets and are bringing themselves or a party will need to bring identity with them. The letter states that that identity must be in the form of a photo card, but the Minister said that it could be a credit card, possibly the credit card with which you bought the tickets. You are already giving us two versions. We must be clear about this: either it is a photo card or it is credit card, or we are very clear that it is both. To pick up the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Higgins, a credit card might well be the right answer because it ties you to the original purchase. If phone calls are going to be the way you begin checking whether those who are under suspicion are right, it would be helpful if some more explanation is given about that. I can imagine a scenario where my children set off on their own to the Games to watch the synchronised swimming, which are the only tickets we have, they arrive to find that somebody has already got in on false tickets, they are dragged off, and I am rung—

[Baroness Garden of Frognal]

I am sorry to interrupt, but I understand from my noble friend Lord Coe that telephone numbers are already available for those who purchased tickets.

[Lord Stevenson of Balmacara]

My Lords, my point—had I been able to make it—is this: what happens when the noble Lord, Lord Coe, rings me and says, “We have your three children here, and they have fake tickets”, but I do not have my mobile phone—I have dropped it in the bath or something like that—so all that I get is a message, and when I ring back I get through to some call centre which, in the nature of trying to internationalise the Games, might be situated in Bangalore? You get the point.

Let us just be clear about this, get the narrative right and communicate clearly so that we carry the public with us, which is a vitally important point, and bring everyone along with us. This is going to be fantastic, and we will definitely be there to make it so. However, following the testing, once we have been to the archery and we have the tickets—and the T-shirt, too—then we need to communicate again that the systems work, and that the testing is happening along with everything else. Then we will all be happy, and I will withdraw the amendment in order to facilitate that.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Garden of Frognal]

My Lords, I am not sure that I can entirely answer the noble Lord and I will have to come back to him on that specific point. Obviously, it will be part of the whole parcel of communication which will go to all the different people involved in ensuring that London keeps moving and that the Games operate as successfully and smoothly as we want.

[Lord Stevenson of Balmacara]

My Lords, I thank everyone who participated in this debate, particularly the noble Baroness, Lady Grey-Thompson, for her ability to spin across into Transport for London issues, which was very helpful, and the noble Baroness, Lady Doocey, whose contribution brought the practicalities of London very much to the forefront.

I am left with three or four points that it might be worth sharing with the Committee. We are dealing with a road transport system in London that is already pretty fragile and anything that one does to it is bound to have a major impact. It used to be said that if you wanted to bring London to a standstill you simply had to put one man and a digger somewhere in Soho: it had such an effect in terms of road traffic that it could close the whole of the city, which may still be true. I know that attempts are going to be made to make sure that there are no road repairs during the period about which we are talking. But, even so, it is a fragile arrangement.

Given that it is fragile, the comments made by the noble Baroness, Lady Doocey, are quite worrying. I know that the Minister tried to give us some gloss on those figures. If the bid book was wrong and the figures were underestimated, what are the correct figures? Would it be possible—not in this debate—for her to write to the noble Baroness and me to give us a linkage back to the bid book, to what the figures should have been if they were wrong and to what the figures will be on the best possible estimates? I am intrigued by the idea that somehow there has to be a reduction of 30 per cent in current use. How will that be achieved? Are we saying that more measures than have currently been discussed will have to be brought out? Are we going to say to people that they will have to take rolling holidays? I can see some advantage in that. Again, I do not need a response today, but it would be useful to have some sense of how that will happen.

My worry is that we may have the best Games possible and that they will be incredibly successful, but that the price we will pay will be a significant dip in GDP, which we perhaps had not anticipated, because people are not able to get to work or they decide to take the line of least resistance and not go into work on the days when the Games are happening. I am being frivolous, but at the heart of this there are problems.

The points on which I am still a little concerned are that the river will be used only for events happening at Greenwich—it seems to me that the river could be utilised much better in terms of providing ancillary transport from a river stopping point, perhaps near Canary Wharf, to the Games, which would save all the central London movement—and the issue about black cabs. Again, I could not quite make out what was being said.

The ORN is a physical mark on a map and can be measured. It is said to be 109 miles in length. Clearly when it is not being used for Olympic purposes, it can be used for ordinary transport, but the feeling has come across, whether it is right or not, that black cabs will not be allowed to go on to the network at all, and that is what is causing the problem. If it is clear that they can, we are back to our old friend communication.

These are going to be brilliant Games, but we must get people on side. We must get them to support them. We need to start communicating better about the transport issues because they are definitely going to continue. The Minister gave us a lot of detail about the consultations going ahead, which was generally very comforting, but there is a difference between consultations about particular closures in particular places and general broad communication about what is happening. I still think that there is room for much more on the latter point, even though the former point will take much of the load. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Economy: Tourism

Debate between Lord Stevenson of Balmacara and Baroness Garden of Frognal

Monday 10th October 2011 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Garden of Frognal]

My noble friend raises a very important issue. We are fully aware that tourism is a very competitive industry, so the UK must always ensure that it is not being outgunned on different fronts by other countries, that the unique assets in our countries, which tourists might want to visit, make it worth while and that the finances do not discourage people from coming here rather than going elsewhere. All these matters are currently under consideration to try to ensure that we make the most of people coming to our country and that they get a warm welcome here.

[Lord Stevenson of Balmacara]

My Lords, tourism is clearly one of the most important potential growth sectors in the economy. Can the Minister explain what the Government have done to ameliorate the damage caused to the tourism industry by the riots last August?

[Baroness Garden of Frognal]

My Lords, that is obviously a very concerning issue on all sorts of fronts, one of which is tourism. The pictures that went around the world were not such as would attract people to come to this country. We hope that more positive messages have gone out since then. The causes of the riots are obviously being looked at, tackled and addressed, but we hope that we will send out positive messages about the parts of the country which were not subjected to riots so that people are not deterred from coming to visit this country.

Live Music Bill [HL]

Debate between Lord Stevenson of Balmacara and Baroness Garden of Frognal

Friday 15th July 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Stevenson of Balmacara]

My Lords, given that this is the main point at issue, it is worth spending a few minutes on it. I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones, that in ideal circumstances midnight might have been a more appropriate time, as indeed was his original intention. Live music tends somehow to gain in character and quality as it moves towards the midnight hour. I do not think that many people would disagree with that, although, as I get a little older, I wonder whether I could survive as late as that.

In introducing the amendment, the noble Lord made it very clear where his sentiments lie and what problems the Government would have in accepting anything later than 11 pm. We have to have regard to the impact that any late activity has on localities and we should be respectful of that. Given that there seems to be some sort of agreement between the two sides—or, rather, between the two parties on the same side—that 11 o’clock should be the time that appears in the Bill, we would not object to it at this stage.

[Baroness Garden of Frognal]

My Lords, I am grateful to my noble friend for the opportunity to explain the Government’s position on the time at which exemptions for live music would no longer apply. I add my thanks to those of the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, for the Keeling schedule, which certainly brought some light to some fairly obscure parts of the Bill.

The Government have previously indicated that they are supportive of the measures to liberalise the licensing of live music but that they would like to see some minor changes to the Bill. Apart from some technical changes outlined in amendments tabled by my noble friend, we asked him whether he would bring forward the time at which the exemptions ceased to have effect from midnight to 11 pm.

We have to acknowledge that there are concerns from residents’ groups and others about the impact of possible deregulation of licensing requirements for live music, particularly in relation to late-night noise, and that local authorities may be concerned about a possible increase in complaints at night. There are, of course, other interventions that can be used to tackle any problems of noise and disturbance, not least the continuing requirement for an alcohol licence in most venues. However, we have to recognise that 11 pm is generally accepted as the time at which it is not unreasonable to expect consideration for those who live near businesses and entertainment premises. That is why noise legislation already has special rules relating to the period from 11 pm to 7 am and why the Licensing Act makes special provision for takeaways and other late-night hot food premises to require a licence after 11 pm.

Those other protections might, in themselves, be a good reason why we could be more ambitious in relaxing the rules for live entertainment. However, the difficulty that the Government have is that previous consultation sought views on deregulation of small music events only up to 11 pm, and without a further test of public views the Government would be unable to support the Bill at this point if it retained the midnight cut-off. However, I should add in response to my noble friend that the Government are planning to consult shortly on wider reforms to regulated entertainment, including music licensed under the 2003 Act. This will include seeking views on deregulation after 11 pm.

However, for the moment, and given the concerns that some feel about later cut-offs and the fact that this has not been subject to consultation, we believe that it is better to adopt a more cautious approach. Therefore, I am grateful to my noble friend for tabling relevant amendments, which, if agreed by the Committee, will enable the Government to offer their support for the Bill.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Garden of Frognal]

I congratulate my noble friend on successfully tabling the amendments he has outlined today and on bringing us a step closer to a more proportionate licensing system. These are important measures that could help struggling venues and aspiring performers, as well as enhancing the cultural offering in local communities. Once the amendments are in place I am pleased to confirm that the Government are happy to support the Live Music Bill.

[Lord Stevenson of Balmacara]

I join the noble Baroness and add our thanks to the noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones, and to the Government for supporting the Bill. This will radically change the way in which live music can be performed across the country. It was not well dealt with in previous legislation, which we very much regret. This is the way forward and we are delighted to support it.