Syria and the Use of Chemical Weapons
Debate between Lord Tebbit and Lord Wallace of Saltaire(10 years, 8 months ago)
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Lord Wallace of Saltaire
My Lords, there are of course unavoidable links between any military intervention and the much broader issue: how can we help to provide a secure and more stable future for Syria? However, moving on to the second diplomatic track, we have been engaged for the past year in attempting to promote a broader political transition in Syria. That was the purpose of the Geneva I conference and part of the purpose whereby we have been working with the Syrian National Council, now the Syrian national coalition, which would recognise—
Lord Tebbit
My Lords, first, can the Minister tell me, in the event of this strike in some form being made, and there is a repetition of the use of chemical weapons, what do we do then? Clearly the Government must have thought this through. Secondly, can he tell me when the Government in Damascus became the regime? Thirdly, can he explain a little more of what he has just said about the efforts that the Government have been making to achieve regime change? I had not understood that we were in the business of bringing down the regime and replacing it.
Lord Wallace of Saltaire
My Lords, there is a civil war in Syria. So far, 100,000 people have been killed and 2 million people are refugees outside Syria. The society and economy of Syria are in the process of being destroyed, which requires the international community to try to resolve the situation.
Lord Wallace of Saltaire
I note the noble Baroness’s request. Perhaps I may say that, as I understand it, both the amendment and the Motion were defeated in the Commons, so we are now perhaps in a state of consensual confusion on this across the parties.
We have before us a range of very serious issues. First, international law and international convention have clearly been broken. Secondly, we have active consultation with a range of Governments around the world about how we contain the increasingly bitter Syrian conflict. I know that my colleagues the Ministers have been discussing with a range of other Governments, including the Russians and the members of the Arab League, how we might now convene the Geneva II conference. It is certainly my hope that we will manage to reconvene the Geneva II conference as soon as possible.
That takes us to the broader issue of the future of the Middle East as a whole and our relations with the Muslim world, a subject that one or two noble Lords have touched on. That is a very broad subject, which we have discussed in this House on one or two occasions this year. We all need to pay very considerable—
Lord Tebbit
Before my noble friend sits down, let me say that I think that it is rather unfair to ask him about what the Government are going to do in consequence of the votes in the other place this evening. However, I think that it was also rather unfair of him not to tell me whether there was a plan for what to do if we did take military action and there was another incident of the use of chemical weapons. Is there a plan for that? Is he privy to it, even if he cannot tell us what it is?
Lord Wallace of Saltaire
My Lords, I am not privy to the full military plans of the Government, but if I were I would not be able to tell him on the Floor of the House. What I can tell him is that inaction also has consequences. We are talking in particular to the Russian Government, who appear to be concerned as the scale of this chemical weapons attack becomes clearer. We hope that the diplomatic track may become easier as the seriousness of what happened in Damascus on 21 August becomes clearer to a range of other Governments. In all of these the use of force itself is—and I end on this—a last resort. Our preference is always for the diplomatic track. However, we have to bear in mind that international law and international conventions are to be observed and supported.
Telephone Hacking
Debate between Lord Tebbit and Lord Wallace of Saltaire
Lord Wallace of Saltaire
My Lords, that is another question that arises from the broadest aspect of this inquiry. I shall take that question, too, back to Ministers and, if necessary, write to the noble Baroness with a more informed reply.
Lord Tebbit
My Lords, will the noble Lord be very careful in his use of the words “responsible” and “irresponsible” in relation to the press? Of course, the press and the media generally must be held responsible for any unlawful acts, but there is no more reason for the press to be responsible in its comments than there is for politicians to be responsible in theirs. Daily, even in this House, we hear irresponsible comment, so we should be a little bit careful before we condemn the press.
Lord Wallace of Saltaire
My Lords, the question of who is careful in condemning whom is something that perhaps the press also needs to think about. With regard to the right of privacy for politicians, celebrities and others, which I know is a contentious issue at present, I had in my notes an interesting distinction between the concept of public interest, which is in the PCC code of conduct, and the question of what may be thought by newspaper editors to interest the public. Those concepts are not in any way the same.
Extradition: Gary McKinnon
Debate between Lord Tebbit and Lord Wallace of Saltaire
Lord Wallace of Saltaire
It was August 2008, my Lords. I have seen all these pieces of evidence which have been circulated widely among us. But this is an extradition case and we have to be concerned with the legal process and the evidence presented to that process. This evidence has now been presented and we are hoping that there can soon be an examination by expert witnesses who can provide the basis on which the Home Secretary and others can take a judgment.
Lord Tebbit
My Lords, is the noble Lord aware that we are all sympathetic to him personally, for he is the victim of a very unfair, unbalanced extradition treaty? If he has any trouble with the American authorities, will he tell them that he has no more confidence that Mr McKinnon would get a fair trial there than some Americans had that IRA suspects would get a fair trial here when the extradition of IRA terrorists was refused by the United States on the basis that they could not get a fair trial in this country?
Lord Wallace of Saltaire
My Lords, the Extradition Act 2003 and the agreement with the United States were, among other things, to deal with the problem of extraditing IRA suspects from the United States. We have to recognise that extradition is a process in which there has to be mutual trust and respect between the legal authorities in different countries. This was to improve extradition between the United States and Britain and also between Britain and Canada, Australia, New Zealand and a number of other countries. There are, of course, those in Britain who do not think that it is possible to have a fair trial in the United States and there are those in the United States who think that it is impossible to have a fair trial in the United Kingdom. We have, however, to respect each other’s legal procedures within democratic countries governed by the rule of law.