Jurisdiction and Judgments (Family) (Amendment etc.) (EU Exit) (No. 2) Regulations 2019
Debate between Lord Thomas of Gresford and Lord Beecham(5 years, 2 months ago)
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Lord Thomas of Gresford (LD)
My Lords, this is a necessary rectification of the earlier regulations. Subject to what has already been expressed, we have no objection to it.
Lord Beecham (Lab)
My Lords, I join my colleague in the House of Commons, and others in your Lordships’ House, in welcoming these amendments which meet concerns raised by family law practitioners, as mentioned in the Explanatory Memorandum. They were concerned about the prospective narrowing of the jurisdiction for financial remedies and the type of remedies which would be available.
This raises the question of what consultation took place before paragraphs 14 and 16 of the EU maintenance regulation were originally amended. To be fair, the Government have been persuaded by family law practitioners that the concerns raised were valid, hence the revised amendment in this statutory instrument, but surely adequate consultation in advance of drafting it would have avoided the need to amend it. What consultation, if any, took place? What assurances can the Minister offer that this scenario will not be repeated?
This is not quite the MoJ equivalent of the fantasy ferry projects subscribed to by the former Lord Chancellor, Chris Grayling, but it is rather disturbing. It comes, after all, only some seven weeks since the original regulations were approved by both Houses, and just over four weeks since they came into force.
The Law Society is content with the changes, which effectively revert to the relevant Hague conventions and some English law extant before 2011. I am glad that the Government have recognised the problem, just about in time, and made the necessary change. However, it underlines the need for proper consultation before laying new regulations to comply with the fate which appears to await the country.
Services of Lawyers and Lawyer’s Practice (Revocation etc.) (EU Exit) Regulations 2019
Debate between Lord Thomas of Gresford and Lord Beecham(5 years, 4 months ago)
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Lord Thomas of Gresford (LD)
I congratulate the Minister on his timing. This is part of the no-deal preparations along with the fake travel jam, the lorry jam in Dover and the hiring of ferries with no ships, but it is a bit late now, with about half an hour to go to the vote, to frighten the horses any further. It is extraordinary that parliamentary time should be spent in debating a statutory instrument of this nature. It is applicable only if the UK leaves the EU without reaching an agreement. The effect of that is to throw the United Kingdom on to World Trade Organization rules for general agreement on trade and services.
If that were to happen, the most-favoured-nation rules would come into operation prohibiting preferential treatment of any signatory state above another. The whole purpose of this statutory instrument, therefore, is to reduce EU and EFTA lawyers currently practising in this country to the level of the lawyers of third-party countries from around the world whose rights to practise and establish in England, Wales and Northern Ireland, absent a trade deal, are absolutely minimal, if they exist at all. As the noble and learned Lord said, this SI affects about 700 lawyers currently registered with the Solicitors Regulation Authority, 17 registered with the Bar Standards Board and some five EU lawyers registered in Northern Ireland. The other side of the coin, however, which would be of concern to the legal profession, is that the EU will obviously seek reciprocally to reduce the rights of United Kingdom lawyers practising in the EU to those WTO rights.
One of the most important differences between the WTO regime and the existing EU framework is the practice areas in which foreign lawyers are allowed to provide services in Europe. While the directives allow EU, EEA and Swiss lawyers to practise host member state law, including EU law, it is not possible under the current GATT schedule for commitments of the EU, which limits third-country lawyers to providing legal advice in home-country law and public international law, to practise in EC law.
While it is possible in theory for individual member states to grant higher levels of access to foreign lawyers, in practice most member states have not gone beyond these GATT commitments. It follows, therefore, that British lawyers will lose a number of significant rights: rights to provide legal advice on EU law; the right to requalify in host member states; and rights of audience in domestic and European courts. Further, according to the settled case law of the CJEU, lawyers from third countries practising in Europe cannot claim legal professional privilege to protect their clients’ interests. Legal professional privilege is not available to them.
It is not surprising, then, that in 2016 the Law Society of Ireland received nearly 1,400 applications from practitioners to requalify in Ireland. Those were British lawyers, mostly from antitrust, competition or trade law practitioners, based in London or Brussels. Last week the Irish Taoiseach specifically said that they were looking at Ireland taking business in legal services away from the United Kingdom. This statutory instrument, therefore, risks unnecessary conflict with the EU legal profession. There will be no reciprocity. Even if there were a no-deal withdrawal from Europe, surely there would have to be an agreement to retain an open market for legal services allowing mutual rights to practise across the borders. You will see no trace of that in the political statement that accompanies the withdrawal agreement. As the noble and learned Lord, Lord Thomas of Cwmgiedd, pointed out last week, we are in a competitive position. Commercial courts where the proceedings are conducted entirely in English have opened up already in Paris and Amsterdam. The noble and learned Lord said that they are being actively promoted as a much better alternative to the United Kingdom because their judgments will be recognised and enforceable across the EU and because of the certainty of their position.
If the EU does unto us what we are doing to it by this statutory instrument, British lawyers will have no rights of audience in these new English-speaking courts. That is a most curious result. Instead of spending time abolishing the rights of European lawyers to practise in this country, the Government might spend time in negotiating mutual rights to practise to replicate the current position. There is nothing, as I have said, in the political declaration that points to such negotiations. I ask the noble and learned Lord: where are we? Have there been any talks on this issue?
Lord Beecham (Lab)
My Lords, I refer to my professional interests, although my firm has not been engaging in EU law. I want to thank in particular the Law Society and the Bar Council for very helpful briefings on an important and complex issue. The provisions of the statutory instrument appear to be acceptable, inasmuch as it will still be possible for EU-registered lawyers to be admitted to the solicitor’s profession or to practise under their home title. Can the noble Lord give any indication of the numbers—the proportion of those whom we have heard are already practising in this country who would be likely to continue under this new regime? Is there any estimate of the impact of the change on the likely numbers of those who will be able to continue? What estimate have the Government made of the impact on UK lawyers currently practising in the EU? Is there any information about the likely impact on them? Can the Minister clarify what is meant by the reference in the Explanatory Memorandum to the,
“alternative examination routes open to third country qualified lawyers”,
and indicate how many applicants are expected to take that course of action? What will be the position of EU lawyers currently engaged in litigation in the UK who do not choose to be admitted to the UK professions by the end of the transitional arrangements on 31 December 2020? Will they, for example, have to withdraw from cases still under way on that date?
Crime and Courts Act 2013 (Deferred Prosecution Agreements) (Amendment of Specified Offences) Order 2018
Debate between Lord Thomas of Gresford and Lord Beecham
Lord Thomas of Gresford (LD)
My Lords, this is a perfectly acceptable amendment to the schedule to remove the anomaly that now exists. It is a moment, however, to consider the value and use of deferred prosecution agreements. As the noble Baroness pointed out, only four such agreements have so far been approved by the court, and only three of the judgments in those cases have as yet been published. However, those cases have made it possible to find some clear principles that should be applied. Sir Brian Leveson, President of the Queen’s Bench Division, put it this way: a deferred prosecution agreement,
“is a reward for openness”.
The first essential is co-operation with an investigation. The sooner a company comes in and self-reports, the more it has to be rewarded for. The SFO will look at what work has already been done to investigate, how thoroughly it has been done and how data has been dealt with—in a way that does not tip off potential suspects leading them to delete that data altogether. Secondly, the company must be committed to reform. This may mean removing senior staff responsible for the criminality and instituting changes in procedures. The SFO must be in a position to go before a judge and argue that the default position of a prosecution can be displaced in the specific case and that a deferred prosecution agreement is justified. The judge has to give his approval to this.
In the Rolls-Royce case, which is the largest of the cases so far, the judge commented that his first reaction to what was put before him had been that if the company was not to be prosecuted,
“in the context of such egregious criminality over decades, involving countries around the world, making truly vast corrupt payments and, consequently, even greater profits then it is difficult to see that any company would be prosecuted”.
Rolls-Royce had not self-reported, but it co-operated. It was its co-operation that enabled the SFO to take the matter before the court. What the company did report, when tasked with it, was far more extensive and of a different order to what may have been exposed without the co-operation that it provided. I hope that the committee of this House carrying out post-legislative scrutiny of the Bribery Act, which has just been formed, will give an opportunity to examine DPAs and how they should be used with great care.
Lord Beecham (Lab)
My Lords, four agreements in between four and five years does not strike me as a particularly impressive figure. I appreciate that the Minister may not be able to answer several questions today, but perhaps she can answer them subsequently by letter. How many cases were considered but not proceeded with? On the four cases to which she referred, what financial penalty was imposed on the relevant companies? In addition to such financial penalties, were proceedings taken against individuals, which is clearly a separate matter? On the companies that were subject to the provisions, what changes may have been made within those companies, assuming things have gone wrong not necessarily with the companies’ full understanding at the time? How many cases have been investigated and not proceeded with, and was such a decision made because there was no case to answer or for other reasons—for example, lack of financial capacity in the company to pay any penalty?
What is the present caseload of the relevant department for these arrangements? Are any cases currently under consideration and, if so, roughly how many? How long will it take for such matters to be resolved? In other words, is there likely to be rather more than an average of one a year in future? If not, are the Government satisfied that the regime is proving effective, and what further steps might be taken to make more use of the provision now that it will be brought up to date?
Crime and Courts Act 2013 (Commencement No. 18) Order 2018
Debate between Lord Thomas of Gresford and Lord Beecham
Lord Thomas of Gresford (LD)
My Lords, I suggest that it is unwise to introduce this commencement order before the result of the pilots is known. I gather from what the Minister just said that the first pilot ended in March but its findings will not be available until the summer and that there is still a pilot operating within the City of London.
We are familiar with electronic monitoring. It has been used to date to ensure compliance by an offender with the terms of a community order, a suspended sentence or a licence to enable a prisoner to be released. Standalone monitoring of this sort is a significant step further. The proposal is to use GPS tracking to monitor an individual’s movements, not against the prohibitions that will be set out in a court order or on release on parole, but generally. It is therefore highly intrusive, as I think the Minister acknowledged in what she said. It goes beyond what is necessary for rehabilitation or the protection of the public.
That point is perhaps emphasised even more by what we were told: that the monitoring will not be in real time—I think I understood that—but be retrospective. In other words, it is not an immediate form of surveillance but means that a probation officer will look back to see what his client has been doing rather than keep a watch over him. It is perhaps less objectionable if it is not immediate surveillance, but it may be rather more effective to use the resources that will be involved in this new system for rehabilitation rather than for tracking offenders in this way.
If this statutory instrument were brought forward after completion, evaluation and publication of the pilot projects—because we have no idea of the results of those pilot projects—it would be possible to assess whether the right balance has been struck. What are the Government going to do to bring those results before Parliament and give us notice of them? Will they give an undertaking not to seek the approval of both Houses before that is done? Otherwise we are faced with the verdict first and the trial afterwards. We want to know what the trial says so that we can comment on it and see whether this statutory instrument should be opposed when it is brought before the House.
Lord Beecham (Lab)
My Lords, we have some experience of monitoring of this kind of a rather unfortunate nature—I am thinking of G4S and its very poor record in bygone years. I wonder, first of all, who is to be carrying out the job: is it going out to tender or are people already lined up for it? Who has conducted or is conducting the trials at present? What is the cost involved in the work that is being undertaken? Is it a matter for the individual authority, probation service or whatever to commission this? What system will there be to get feedback at a national level about the success or otherwise of the scheme as it goes forward?
Presumably the Government will wish to be satisfied with the trials and that the system is working but, of course, we have to take a longer view about its working, not simply that it is mechanically working but that, in time, it is yielding the results that the Government seek for helping people to, if I may put it this way, stay on the straight and narrow and live a responsible life. That will take presumably some time. How long has the current exercise of trying out the system been going on for? Can the Minister enlighten us a little about where that has taken place, how many people have been put through it and with what result? I am certainly not minded to oppose the process but, given the rather unfortunate past regarding similar arrangements, I think there is a need to look very carefully at what is happening and to get a report back in the not-too-distant future. Can the Minister indicate whether there will be an annual review and report of how the scheme is working? That would be helpful both at the national and appropriate local levels, so that we can see the system is working both mechanically, as it were, and in terms of its intentions to help people stay out of difficulty and obey the law. Will there be oversight of that kind and, ultimately, reports about how the system is working in practice?