Common Rules for Access to the International Market for Coach and Bus Services (Amendment etc.) (EU Exit) Regulations 2019
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Lord Eames (CB)
My Lords, I welcome the explanation given to us about the complicated nature of this SI. I shall speak particularly about the local situation in Northern Ireland. Once more, this is an example of how that part of the UK will feel the full force of Brexit, not only for Translink and the regular services that it provides across the border, which was once simply the border with the other part of Ireland but will now become the frontier with the EU. There is genuine anxiety in the industry about, first, the complicated nature of running regular services across the border and, secondly, the many local employers of small coach services that are frequently—especially, as the noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, said, as we come into this season—crossing the border, going into the Republic and vice versa.
As the Minister reminded us, there will be a separate SI, but I suggest that there is bound to be an overlap between what this SI covers and the individual SI for Northern Ireland. If Northern Ireland is part of the United Kingdom there is bound to be that overlap. Can the Minister reassure the House that special attention will be paid to Northern Ireland’s difficulties in this respect, since we will feel the full force of Brexit when it comes?
Lord Tunnicliffe (Lab)
My Lords, this SI is a little complex. It seems to be about timing. One gets an uncomfortable feeling that the Government had tackled aviation, marine and road haulage when suddenly someone woke up and said, “We’d better do coaches”. As you read through the Explanatory Memorandum, initially it seems to be an asymmetric situation where EU operators get all the provisions that they have now but UK operators do not, and then you turn to paragraph 7.3, which says:
“The EU have proposed a legislative change that will extend many of the provisions of the existing market access Regulations till 31 December 2019”.
Extending “many” means that it does not extend all. Could the Minister spell out which provisions of the existing market access are not allowed under this agreement? Has the agreement become EU law? I believe the answer is yes, but I would like her to spell that out in simple language. If it is the law that I am thinking of, it declines and then expires on 31 December 2019.
Having not declared any interests in coach operations, I confess that I know nothing about the Interbus deal. Could the Minister spell out what it will mean if it is fully ratified, as is implied in the Explanatory Memorandum? Will it give UK operators the same freedoms as they have now? If not, could she spell out the freedoms that they will not have? Will the Interbus agreement supersede the necessity for the special arrangements that I believe the EU has introduced?
Baroness Sugg
I thank noble Lords for their contributions. Turning to the questions on consultation from the noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, I say that the aim of this legislation is to maintain the status quo as far as possible through technical amendments to the existing regime. We have engaged with the Confederation of Passenger Transport, as the main industry representative, and the Federation of Passenger Transport Northern Ireland, the FPTNI. The industry has been supportive of the application to join Interbus, as this will give liberalised, unlimited access to run occasional services in the EU, which covers the vast majority of activity by GB operators. There is little use of cabotage on occasional services, because UK carriers are normally taking the same group of passengers to a destination in the EU, then bringing them back.
We have been working closely with industry to make sure it is informed. While this SI makes technical changes, this SI, the EU regulation and the accession to the Interbus agreement together give maintenance of the status quo. Letters are going out to every operator which holds an international licence, to inform them about future processes. The trade association, the Confederation of Passenger Transport, is making members aware via social media, newsletters and email, and the information on GOV.UK which the noble Baroness referred to.
The noble Baroness asked about the effect on the International Road Freight Office. Relatively few authorisations are required by EU operators. We expect there to be about 150, rather than 600—600 is the top end of the estimation. There is a simple process; operators have to pay only for postage and, possibly, translation. Some operators already apply directly through the IRFO rather than their home member state, so we do not expect there to be a huge effect.
There is an issue with this two-day gap. It might be helpful if I explain why we have it. The Interbus agreement can come into effect only on the first of the month. If we had laid the SI earlier, the agreement would still have come into effect on the first of the month, as the agreement itself specifies that. We cannot become a contracting party until we leave the European Union. We are working closely with the European Commission to find a solution to overcome that gap in provision—
Lord Tunnicliffe
On 1 January 2020, by which time the EU regulation will have expired, and assuming there are a satisfactory number of signatures to the Interbus agreement, to what extent will the situation for UK operators be different from the situation today?
Baroness Sugg
On 1 January 2020, assuming that we have all the signatories that we need and the Interbus agreement is in place, the main issue will be cabotage, as the Interbus agreement does not cover cabotage. UK operators will not be able to provide cabotage in the EU. There would be a separate arrangement for that for Ireland, but UK operators will not be able to do it. There is very limited UK-operator cabotage in the EU; as I said, most journeys go out and come back. However, that is the main implication and the main difference.
Merchant Shipping (Standards of Training, Certification and Watchkeeping) (Amendment) (EU Exit) Regulations 2019
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Baroness Randerson (LD)
My Lords, I thank the Minister for her explanation.
The first of these two SIs relates to training standards in the industry and is based on EU directives 2008/106/EC and 2012/35/EU. The EU-wide process for the recognition of certificates has been very important—indeed, fundamental—in raising safety levels in an industry where international crews are the norm. In 2016, as the Explanatory Memorandum helpfully tells us, 3,410 UK seafarers had certificates enabling them to work in EU and EEA-registered vessels. The SI adopts the usual procedure, replacing “EU Commission” with “Secretary of State”.
It will not surprise the Minister to hear that I am concerned about the reduction once again in transparency in the process because the SI gives the Secretary of State responsibility for the withdrawal of recognition of parties to the STCW convention where standards are not met. What is the procedure by which the Secretary of State will come to that conclusion? Who will advise the Secretary of State? Will there be any right of appeal? We are replacing a well-established, well-understood European process with a process bathed in mystery. Perhaps the Minister could explain whether any further regulations will set out the process and where any advice might be given to the Secretary of State.
The Joint Committee on Statutory Instruments drew this SI to our attention because of its impact on seafarers. The UK will continue to recognise the certificates it currently recognises but there is no guarantee of the EU recognising our certificates in future. The 2005 directive established certificates of competency; each seafarer must have one, and have it endorsed by the flag state of the vessels on which they want to work. These are known as certificates of equivalent competency. Once the European Commission has approved a third country, other member states can, but are not obliged to, accept seafarers from that third country on their ships. That is an unusual discretion. How does it work in practice? How has it worked in practice until now? Is there a record of seafarers from a recognised third country not being accepted on ships from other EU countries? If there are cases where that has happened, which countries have chosen to exercise this power of discretion? Have we always accepted those certificates?
I am sure the Minister can see where I am going with this. My concern is that once we become a third country our seafarers may find themselves excluded by some EU countries, even though the European Commission has agreed to accept our certificates as compliant with STCW.
There is also my usual concern about how we keep up with the flow of information as the EU changes its standards. It is fine to say that we will hitch ourselves to the current standards, but keeping up with the list of countries recognised by the EU might be more complex than it seems. In this SI, the Secretary of State is given the power to add to or subtract from the list of recognised countries, so I ask the same questions again about that power. What will be the system for this? Where will be the transparency? Who will give the Secretary of State advice? I am even more concerned, because as usual there has been no consultation on this, and it involves individual seafarers. Although companies can be expected to keep abreast of all these changes, individuals should not be expected to have to do so.
I turn to the SI on passenger rights. Officials working in the Department for Transport must be losing the will to live during this whole process. As things descend into farce, it is probably difficult to keep abreast of the pace of these things, but I have to say that this is an unusually opaque Explanatory Memorandum. I draw noble Lords’ attention to paragraphs 2.8 and 2.9, which introduce us to the bunkers and Athens conventions in terms that suggest we chat about them over our cornflakes, so familiar are they to us all. I really grappled with this one; I raise this because if I have misunderstood it, it is because bits of it are particularly complex.
In practical terms, this SI seeks to continue current arrangements on passenger rights and on insurance. I have a technical question for the Minister. In the EU rules on this, the compensation for when things go wrong is currently dictated in euros. It is converted to sterling at the rate for the year ended 31 December 2017. Why are we using something pretty historical for this? It makes it look rather outdated before we start.
Once again, there has been no consultation on this. I want to make an important point in relation to the comments on small business. One after another of these SIs say that there will be minimal impact and only familiarisation costs to SMEs. I am beginning to be extremely concerned that, within each sphere—here we are on maritime—individual businesses are expected to absorb and to familiarise themselves with a number of SIs, not just one. The pace of change for them is adding up to something substantial, and the Government have not consulted them on it.
I also want to ask my usual question: how will the Government keep up with changes that happen in the EU on this? Passengers’ rights are very dear to people’s hearts. If there is any shadow of thought that we in this country have inferior rights, passengers would be extremely angry—and rightly so. Therefore, I am keen that we know how the Government intend to keep pace with change. What will be the process by which the Secretary of State makes decisions to change things when necessary? On whose advice would he act?
Lord Tunnicliffe (Lab)
My Lords, there is a certain disadvantage in following the noble Baroness, Lady Randerson: she has usually nicked most of my points. I will therefore highlight only a couple.
Paragraph 3.2 of the Explanatory Memorandum states that,
“EU recognition of United Kingdom certificates will be at the discretion of Member States”.
Clearly, here we have a non-reciprocal situation, where we are providing rights to the EU and it is not necessarily reciprocating. Will the Minister explain the processes the Department for Transport intends to carry forward? Is there reciprocity, as we desire, or will it have to be done state by state? Can it be done through some comprehensive agreement with the EU? What efforts are being made at the moment to try to get a reciprocal agreement?
I share the concern of the noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, about the Secretary of State. To be even-handed, I should say that that is any Secretary of State—one is tempted to ponder on this one in particular, but I will set that to one side. I could not find it in the Explanatory Memorandum, but I may have overlooked it: what political oversight is there in the exercise of the Secretary of State’s powers? If there is none, how can there be transparency in the process? To pick up the noble Baroness’s point, how will he be advised?
Turning to the very important issue of passengers’ rights, although the Explanatory Memorandum is a document in the public domain, it is not one dear to people’s hearts, whereas Hansard is. Paragraph 7.1 of the Explanatory Memorandum seems to say that passengers’ rights will be identical. Will the Minister tell us in plain language that they will be identical, so that it can be included in the formal record?
On paragraph 7.3, I share the view about opaqueness. It talks first about EU member states that are not state parties to the Athens convention. Elsewhere, one got the impression that all EU member states were parties now to the Athens convention. Of the member states, which are not parties to the convention? It tells us little about how the Athens convention works and gives appropriate support and assurance to passengers. Will the Minister spell out what the convention does for passengers? I know it limits compensation, but how does it ensure that compensation will be paid? I recognise that the answer to that might be rather complex, so I am content for the Minister to write to me on that subject.
Baroness Sugg
I thank noble Lords for their consideration of these draft regulations.
The noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, pointed out the high quality of the seafarer qualifications, and we will continue to recognise them in accordance with the international STCW convention, so standards will not slip and will not be affected by our departure from the EU. To work on a UK-registered vessel, EU seafarers will still need to obtain a UK certificate of equivalent competency.
On the position of UK seafarers on EU-flagged ships, it is in the interests of both the UK and the EU to avoid any barriers to UK seafarers continuing to make the important contribution that they already make. If there is no deal, endorsements issued before withdrawal by EU countries to seafarers who hold UK certificates of competency will continue to be valid until they expire. So, if you are a UK-trained seafarer with an endorsement already issued by an EU country, you will be able to continue working on board vessels flying the flag of that country until the endorsement expires.
We are seeking to ensure that UK seafarer certificates continue to be recognised through the well-established EU process for recognising third-country certificates. That will provide continuity for UK seafarers. As I have said, we have committed to recognising EU countries’ certificates, and that approach has been welcomed. The Commission issued a technical notice in January 2018 setting out that the UK would be treated as a third country and that member states would need to apply to recognise UK certificates under the relevant provisions in directive 2008/106. It is not possible to apply for this recognition until the UK becomes a third country, and the Commission can take around 18 months to process the application. However, member states can recognise certificates in the meantime, and we are confident that the EU will accept that UK training is of a high quality, will want to recognise us as a third country and that major commercial flags such as Malta and Cyprus will continue to recognise the UK certificate of competence. When we raised the issue with all of those countries, they have been positive.
As to the impact on day one, the vast majority of UK seafarers will already have a current certificate of competency which, as I have said, will be valid for up to five years.
On the powers of the Secretary of State to remove recognition from countries, we will be advised by the MCA. The Secretary of State currently makes decisions based on its advice and so that will not change. The decisions will be based on all the evidence available that that country meets the STCW requests. The normal administrative law provisions apply so that the Secretary of State’s decisions can be challenged in court if necessary.
No formal consultation was carried out on the STCW SI, but the department has worked closely with shipping representatives and the trade union Nautilus International. The Government also issued technical notices in September to inform seafarers and companies about the approach. The department has met with the general secretary of Nautilus on several occasions; the MCA has regular contact with it and with the Chamber of Shipping on the whole SI programme. The Shipping Minister recently met with Nautilus and the Chamber of Shipping, which was described as productive by Nautilus. Both organisations support the continued recognition by the UK of certificates issued by EU member states.
On passenger rights, the noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, asked about the conversion rate. This was done using the average exchange rate for the year ending 31 December 2017 and the figures were rounded. Therefore, the €80 and €6 in EU regulation 1177 becomes £70 and £5, and the €21,000 reference in EU regulation 392 becomes £18,500. In each case, those roundings work to the benefit of passengers. The conversion was carried out at the beginning of the drafting process according to cross-government guidance, and at the time 2017 was the last full year available. However, as the noble Baroness said, the exchange rate has fluctuated since but, because of the rounding, the effect on passengers is minimal. Those amounts were fixed and we do not have the power to vary them other than through primary legislation.
Passenger rights and entitlements will be the same as they are today. I hope that is plain English enough for the noble Lord, Lord Tunnicliffe.
No formal consultation was undertaken on the passenger rights SI, but the department consulted a range of stakeholders in 2018 when preparing the post-implementation reviews of the Merchant Shipping (Carriage of Passengers by Sea) Regulations 2012 and the Merchant Shipping (Passengers’ Rights) Regulations 2013, which implement the relevant EU law in the UK. In both cases, all stakeholders expressed support for the 2012 and 2013 regulations and a desire to see the current rules retained in their existing form.
On further delegated powers to the Secretary of State, the draft regulations transfer powers which currently enable the Commission to amend certain elements of regulation 392/2009, which applies the Athens convention. The powers transferred to the Secretary of State are limited to amending the liability limits to incorporate changes made by the IMO Athens convention and to other non-essential elements of the regulation. No changes to the EU regulation have been made since it came into force, and it is not expected that we will use this power frequently. We will continue to monitor developments in the implementation of the Athens convention at international and EU level. Any other changes to that regulation will need to be made through primary legislation.
The noble Lord, Lord Tunnicliffe, asked about the Athens convention. It establishes a regime of liability for damage suffered by passengers on a sea-going vessel. It declares a carrier liable for damage or loss suffered by a passenger if the incident causing the damage occurred in the course of the carriage and was due to the fault or neglect of the carrier. As far as loss or damage to luggage is concerned, the carrier’s limit of liability varies depending on whether the loss or damage occurred in respect of cabin luggage, a vehicle or other luggage carried in or on it. The key requirement is that the registered owner of a vessel must maintain compulsory insurance. Passengers travelling on ferries to or from the EU after exit will continue to be protected, as it applies to all passengers regardless of nationality.
Under regulation 1177/2010, passengers have the right to information, refunds and rerouting, in some cases, and compensation in most circumstances in which their journeys are delayed or cancelled. The regulation also grants the right to assistance and travel at no extra cost. I hope that is a sufficient explanation of what the Athens convention does. The EU regulations were harmonised and brought it into UK law. The new regulations we are discussing transfer them.
The noble Lord, Lord Tunnicliffe, also asked which member states have not yet ratified the convention. A number of member states have not ratified the convention, despite it having been in force for almost five years. They are Austria, the Republic of Cyprus, the Czech Republic, Estonia, Germany, Hungary, Italy, Luxembourg and Poland, but only Cyprus, Estonia, Germany, Italy and Poland have maritime ports. Only 21 ships made that journey and it is very easy to get a certificate of competence. We are in contact with those countries which have not ratified the Athens convention.
I hope I have managed to address the points—
Lord Tunnicliffe
I asked whether there is any parliamentary involvement in the Secretary of State exercising his rights under either of these instruments.
Baroness Sugg
On the first instrument and the Secretary of State’s right to remove a country from STCW, I do not believe there is any parliamentary involvement. That would be based on the MCA, as previously. On the delegated powers under the passengers’ rights obligation, that will depend on which regulation he is using. The powers transferred to the Secretary of State are limited to amending the liability limits to incorporate changes and other non-essential elements of regulation. Any other substantial changes will need to be made through primary legislation, which will be subject to parliamentary scrutiny. There are no further delegated powers through the STCW regulations.
I hope I have managed to address the points that noble Lords have raised during the debate. I will perhaps write to the noble Lord to clarify the last point on parliamentary scrutiny.
This completes the programme of maritime SIs that noble Lords will consider. I thank the policy officials and legal advisers to the DfT—who I hope are not losing the will to live—for their hard work and diligence in both producing the SIs and briefing the Minister on them. The proposed changes made by these draft regulations are appropriate to ensure that retained EU legislation relating to seafarer qualifications and passenger rights work effectively in the UK from day one in the event of a no-deal exit.
Licensing of Operators and International Road Haulage (Amendment etc.) (EU Exit) Regulations 2019
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Baroness Randerson (LD)
My Lords, I start with the big question, as I see it: where does this dovetail with ECMT permits? We have already been through those in relation to an SI. They are already established as part of our no-deal preparations, and there has already been feedback on the fact that only 5% of the industry will be covered by them. So is this an either/or, or is it an either/or that kicks in after December this year? Perhaps the Minister could clarify for me exactly where this regulation stands in the whole thing.
In essence, and I say these words carefully, this SI substitutes a community licence applied for in the UK with a UK licence for the community. No wonder the public are beginning to get frustrated with the whole thing. Given that this applies to thousands of hauliers—thousands of small haulage firms, many with one or two vehicles—they could be forgiven for getting confused over this. That innocuous though confusing change of name hides a fundamental potential change in their rights to operate within the EU.
On Northern Ireland, I have very serious concerns about cabotage and cross-trade. Paragraph 6.5 of the Explanatory Memorandum makes several references to future arrangements in Northern Ireland. There is of course a great deal of cross-border haulage between Northern Ireland and the Republic. The situation is very nuanced because goods haulage is very different from passenger transport. What will happen to these arrangements if Northern Ireland is caught in the backstop? Generally these SIs say, “We’re sorting Northern Ireland separately”, but this one incorporates arrangements for Northern Ireland. That led me to wonder how it will operate if Northern Ireland is caught in the backstop. Am I right to assume that in that situation these arrangements would cease to apply?
Rather obliquely, paragraph 6.6 of the Explanatory Memorandum says that the amendments made by the SI also apply to coach and bus services, but paragraph 7.9 says that there is separate provision for international passenger transport. Could I have an explanation of that?
Importantly, regulation 1071/2009 allows member states some discretion to impose additional requirements of operators, and once again the Secretary of State is to get that power. I repeat my usual questions. What about transparency? On whose advice would the Secretary of State exercise this power? How would it be done? Would there be a role for Parliament? Would there be a negative or an affirmative process? I know I ask this every time, but I assume that the answer is different on each occasion.
Applications for Community licences currently go to the traffic commissioners. Will they maintain that role for UK licences in future? If so, what about resources? I am well aware that the traffic commissioners have a very broad responsibility and their organisations are usually extremely thinly staffed. There is the usual hope that the EU will continue to recognise our rights as usual, but there are EU proposals on this and, as I understand it, they do not give us full cabotage rights. They also extend only to the end of this year.
The Explanatory Memorandum says that it is hoped that this SI will be superseded by full legislation by the end of the year. As time goes on, the end of this year looks remarkably soon for there to be even more legislation on this. To clarify, is this EU offer for nine months after we leave for a rolling nine months following Brexit, which will kick in only when we leave, or has it offered this up to the end of this year and that is it?
Once again, there has been no consultation. That is especially serious in this case, because thousands of hauliers who make their living in international haulage will not be able to rely on a Community licence in future. This is not a minor change; it is fundamental. Again, SMEs are not especially taken into account.
Finally, if you currently have a Community licence, will you have to reapply for it? Suppose you have a Community licence that is valid to this end of this calendar year: are there any events or potential Brexit scenarios, foreseen or unforeseen, that could lead to hauliers having to reapply for their licence within that timeframe? Everyone expects that they will reapply for their licence at the end of the period covered, but is there anything that could happen that would interrupt that licence? Or are hauliers right, and can be confident to assume, that if they have a valid licence until the end of this year, for example, they can carry on working until then? I would be grateful for clarification on that.
Lord Tunnicliffe (Lab)
My Lords, I took a slightly more optimistic view of this SI than the noble Baroness, Lady Randerson. However, clarification in plain language will help. Paragraph 2.7 of the Explanatory Memorandum says:
“The UK operator licensing regime will generally remain as at present”.
I wonder whether we could have simpler language than that. My understanding, taken with recent agreement in the EU, is that the situation will be fully reciprocal. I will say it again, because it is a question to which I would like a direct answer. The Explanatory Memorandum uses terms such as “provided that”, which enthused me to look up the European Commission—I will not do this again. On 19 December 2018, it published a regulation of the European Parliament and of the Council on,
“common rules ensuring basic road freight connectivity with regard to the withdrawal of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland from the Union”.
At the end it says that the regulation applies until 31 December 2019, and that it was “done at” Brussels. I do not understand EU law. Is that now a piece of EU law? Does it, together with this SI, mean that in all respects, except the names of these licences, the situation for operators is identical to where we are now, with, of course, the overriding importance that the agreement of the EU is only until the end of the year?
Baroness Sugg
I again thank noble Lords for their consideration of these regulations. The noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, asked about the hot topic of ECMT permits. The European Commission has published the draft regulation on road transport. It was approved by the European Parliament last week. We expect it to be approved by the Council of Ministers this week—tomorrow, in fact. We welcome the substance of these proposals, which will ensure that the majority of UK hauliers can continue carrying goods into the EU for the rest of the year without needing an ECMT permit, providing that we reciprocate and provide equivalent rights to EU hauliers, which we are doing through these regulations.
Lord Tunnicliffe
Am I right in understanding that that also includes the cabotage allowance?
Baroness Sugg
The Commission’s proposal includes the right for UK hauliers to complete point-to-point journeys and transit journeys. It also offers limited cabotage and cross-trade journeys. Cross-trade journeys are limited compared to what UK hauliers can do now, which is three movements in seven days. They will still be allowed to do two cross-trade or cabotage operations on every international trip for the first four months of these regulations, then one cross-trade or cabotage operation every trip during the next three months.
Maritime 2050 Strategy
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Baroness Sugg
My Lords, I believe that a global competition is running on that, but a British consortium is bidding. As I said earlier, we published the National Shipbuilding Strategy in 2017 which will help transform naval and commercial shipbuilding and the related procurement process. It details a new and competitive approach to the delivery of shipbuilding in this country.
Lord Tunnicliffe (Lab)
My Lords, there seem to be more than 100 recommendations in the report, along with 143 references to the Government. Just how much resource is the Department for Transport going to put into this project?
Baroness Sugg
My Lords, the noble Lord is right to highlight the many recommendations in the strategy. It contains commitments on how we are going to take action across the seven themes addressed in the strategy. Our priority is to ensure that the recommendations are implemented, with a focus on the next five years. I referred earlier to the publishing of road maps which will set out the plans, milestones and timing for the implementation of the recommendations. We have resources in place to deliver the strategy and of course we are also working closely with the industry to help deliver it. In terms of future funding, we are putting together a bid for the upcoming spending review which reflects our ambitions and the commitments made in Maritime 2050.
Aviation Safety (Amendment etc.) (EU Exit) Regulations 2019
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Lord Tunnicliffe (Lab)
My Lords, I make my usual statement that I deeply regret being here. I think the idea of leaving the European Union without an agreement is absurd. In many ways, this SI and the many SIs I have worked through illustrate just how bad a situation it will be, but assuming that we are leaving, or have to be ready to leave, the EU without an agreement, I have looked at this SI. Its thickness deterred me from reading it, so my comments are based on the Explanatory Memorandum. Having been in the industry, I look forward to the seminar that the Minister is no doubt about to give us on ICAO. She will no doubt explain how this statutory instrument answers many of the questions that have been asked. I am sympathetic to many of them.
I shall restrict myself to two issues. The first is the powers of the Secretary of State. I have dealt with an awful lot of these SIs, and they have the same general characteristic: the stuff that is handled by EU regulators gets handed to UK regulators, and the stuff that is handled by the Commission is transferred to the Treasury. As I understand it, the Treasury is a body in its own right that can make decisions as a body in its own right. In a sense, one would expect the Treasury to be equipped to make those sorts of decisions. Here, paragraph 7.4 of the Explanatory Memorandum states:
“Delegated powers in the Basic Regulation are transferred from the Commission”;
and it ends by introducing a role for Parliament:
“Regulations made by the Secretary of State would be subject to negative resolution procedure”.
Unfortunately, as you read the document, it implies that decisions will be made by the Secretary of State himself, as the natural person. Given recent history, I am not sure that Parliament should be that comfortable with the idea of giving decisions to this Secretary of State, as the natural person. I assume it will not work like that. I assume the department and the Secretary of State will set up systems to advise the Secretary of State to analyse the issue and make sure that when we come to examine the regulations—if we choose to, under the negative procedure—the decisions would be backed up by a proper decision-making system, which the Minister will be happy to present to us. I hope we have reassurance on that point. To some extent, that covers one of the points made earlier in this debate.
Reading through the Explanatory Memorandum, I also stumbled across paragraph 7.6, which says:
“Corrections made include … removing provisions dealing with the relationship with and cooperation between EU Member States”.
I know we have had two tragic events recently, but the tremendous improvements made over recent decades in civil aviation safety absolutely depend on worldwide, international co-operation. Therefore, I hope that that paragraph is a technicality and that it will not change the attitude of the British Government to continuing to pursue this strong co-operation through the international bodies. I ask the Minister: what procedures will be put in place and what agreements will be sought to continue to optimise safety through international co-operation?
Baroness Sugg
My Lords, I thank noble Lords for their consideration of this draft instrument. Before I move on to the SI, I am very happy to give noble Lords an update following the tragic accident in Ethiopia. The UK CAA has been closely monitoring the situation, as has the department. It made an announcement just after lunchtime today that it does not currently have sufficient information from the flight data recorder, so as a precautionary measure, it has issued instructions to stop any commercial passenger flights with that aircraft for any operator arriving, departing or overflying UK airspace. The safety directive will be in place until further notice, and of course the CAA remains in close contact with EASA and industry regulators globally.
It might be helpful to start by reiterating our position on EASA. We seek continued UK participation in EASA. This will help to ensure high levels of safety, as well as facilitating trade between the UK and the EU. We have the second largest aerospace sector in the world and the largest aviation sector in Europe, so it is not in any of our interests not to participate. It is a critical industry and, of course, safety is critical. This SI is not intended to remove us from EASA; that is a consequence of a no-deal Brexit. We want to see continued participation, but it is not just up to us to decide that. We very much hope that the EU will want us to continue participating in EASA. As the noble Baroness said, we have been deeply involved throughout its history. We very much hope that the EU will agree to our continued participation. However, we need this SI to be in place to ensure that we have a contingency plan; that is what this SI gives us. We very much hope that we will agree a deal and see continued participation in EASA. If we are in a no-deal situation, we expect to move into conversations about our future air transport agreement very quickly, which will also cover safety issues.
In response to the noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, who highlighted our response to the SLSC back in December, the mirror image of these regulations is the EU safety regulation. The EU is in the process of adopting the regulation on aviation safety. It will be voted on in the European Parliament tomorrow and at the Council next week. It has already been agreed at the Committee of Permanent Representatives and we expect no issues with its adoption. That EU regulation is ultimately designed to prevent disruption to the EU industry, but it will be beneficial to us as well. It has three strands. First, it will extend the validity of certificates issued by EASA to UK-based design organisations. That extension is initially set at nine months, but the Commission is empowered to extend it if it proves necessary. Secondly, it provides for the continued validity of authorised release certificates for products, parts and appliances, certificates of release to a service issued on completion of maintenance, and airworthiness review certificates issued prior to exit day by organisations approved by the CAA. Finally, it provides that examinations taken at CAA-approved training organisations prior to the entry into force of the regulation will remain valid. We think that the EU’s regulation, as ours, is a sensible contingency measure to have in place for a no-deal exit. It is not a permanent solution, and we very much hope that we agree a deal, and, if we do not, that we are able to negotiate further on safety regulations.
The noble Lord, Lord Berkeley, raised the issue of the banned airlines list. I agree that this is a very important list to have. On exit day, the UK list will be established and it will mirror the current EU banned list. The list will be published on the CAA’s website, and it will be updated to reflect the imposition of operating bans. Operating bans are imposed by the refusal or revocation on safety grounds of permission for an airline to operate to the UK or by the refusal or revocation of a third-country operator authorisation. As the noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, pointed out, unlike the EU list, the UK list is not contained in legislation because it does not itself impose the bans, but reflects bans that have been imposed by the exercise of statutory powers. We will, of course, aim to keep the UK list consistent with the EU list as far as possible, and the decision on any operating bans will always be based on advice from the CAA.
Aviation Noise (Amendment) (EU Exit) Regulations 2019
Lord Tunnicliffe Excerpts(7 years, 4 months ago)
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Lord Tunnicliffe (Lab)
My Lords, I will not repeat at length the points made by my noble friend Lord Berkeley and the noble Baroness, Lady Randerson. I broadly agree with them and will certainly be listening with care to the Minister’s response. I do, though, come back to the issue of the Secretary of State exercising his powers. We got a clear answer on the previous SI that, in exercising his powers under that statutory instrument, he would consult the CAA. We need something a good deal more complex for this issue because noise is quite different in character from safety. Realistically, a member of the public does not have a useful or valid opinion about airline safety issues, but on noise a member of the public is exactly who it is all about. The issue is about communities around airports.
There are two areas that I would like the Minister to expand on. First, from what parts of government will the Secretary of State receive advice in exercising his powers? Secondly, I would like an assurance on matter of consultation. As far as I can tell, the statutory instrument seeks as far as possible in this nightmare scenario to maintain the status quo, but any changes to these regulations that the Secretary of State makes—using, once again, the negative procedure—will affect the general public in all the communities around airports, and of course there are also the additional issues of practicality, cost and so on. This is a difficult and complex political subject, so we need assurances that at any time in the future when the Secretary of State uses his powers under this instrument, he will conduct a full consultation to get all proper inputs to the decision-making.
Baroness Sugg
I thank noble Lords for their consideration of this statutory instrument. The regulations do not set noise policy; noise standards for aircraft are set by ICAO and we will continue to follow them.
On the point about the competent authority, last year we laid regulations that appointed competent authorities in England and Wales. The implementation provides for the local planning authority to be the competent authority when an application for any change is brought under the Town and Country Planning Act, but it also allows the Secretary of State for English airports or Welsh Ministers for Welsh airports to be the competent authority for called-in applications. Therefore, that matter is slightly separate from this SI.
The noble Baroness mentioned the balanced approach. Regulation 598 requires the competent authorities to take account of the balanced approach, and that requirement is kept by this SI. It will ensure that the balanced approach consists of identifying noise problems at specific airports and giving consideration to various measures that might be available to reduce noise. That is being carried over in its entirety.
Expansion at Heathrow is conditional on a package of mitigations. The NPS makes clear that noise mitigation measures should be put in place to ensure that the impact is limited. Again, that is going through the planning process following the judicial review process. We of course recognise that aviation noise is a key concern for communities living near airports. I regularly meet community groups and MPs to discuss this. We have played a leading role at an international level in relation to noise standards, and we will continue to promote further improvements in this area.
This SI does not change noise policy; it is concerned only with corrections as a result of EU exit. It does not impose restrictions; it is just a framework. We are consulting more widely on our noise policy, which we set at a national level through the aviation Green Paper consultation which we published in December. In that, we set out a number of policies designed to reduce noise and its impact, and that is how we will set our noise policy in future.
On consultation, in 2017 we consulted on proposals for appointing competent authorities, and the Scottish Government conducted a consultation on their proposals earlier this year. However, we have not consulted communities on this. The changes in Regulation 598 will not have a direct impact on overflown communities. They will ensure that the correct procedure is followed when operating restrictions are considered or it is proposed that they be imposed, but they will not change things for communities per se. As I said, that is being dealt with through the aviation strategy consultation.
There is a delegated power which provides for the Secretary of State to make secondary legislation under the negative procedure. It is about providing technical updates to the regulations, but again that power is limited to such updates to the noise certification standards and methodology indicators relating to the assessment of noise impact at an airport. Again, those updates are limited within the regulations to account for changes to relevant international rules.
As with the previous SI that we discussed, we will continue to follow the international rules. We have been leading the way with our noise policy and are suggesting further measures to improve it through the consultation. We will publish our final aviation strategy later this year, which we hope will address the understandable concerns of communities around the airport. However, that noise policy is not directly relevant to the SI we are discussing, which simply ensures that in the event of a no-deal exit from the EU there will be continuity of aircraft noise standards and certification and of the process when operating restrictions are considered at airports.
Aviation Statistics (Amendment etc.) (EU Exit) Regulations 2019
Lord Tunnicliffe Excerpts(7 years, 4 months ago)
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Baroness Randerson (LD)
My Lords, airport operators currently provide their statistics to the CAA, which passes them on to Eurostat. This is to be replaced, according to this SI, with a system whereby airport operators give the information to the CAA, which then provides that data to the Secretary of State if directed—not by legal obligation but if directed.
There are four problems with the SI. First, statistics collected on a national basis are much less useful and meaningful than international statistics. As the noble Lord said, there is no guarantee that this information will be shared internationally.
Secondly, there is no obligation on the Secretary of State to even want to see the statistics. What will he do with them? There is no obligation on the Secretary of State to publish them. Therefore, one has obvious concerns about transparency. Statistics should be important for the Government; they are certainly important for the public and the industry itself to monitor performance. The CAA already collects this data, but it will be of much less use for comparative purposes as matters stand in the SI.
The third problem is the impact of changing rules on exactly how the data is expressed and collected. This is the kind of internal thing that happens in any organisation. If you change the order of the questions or one or two words in the questions, you impact the results. It does not matter that much if you are looking across the piece and everyone is obeying the same rules, but we will be collecting our data on a different basis. I more or less guarantee that, within a year or two, we will be told that our data is no longer comparable because of differences in collection procedure.
Finally, there is the new power of the CAA referred to in the SI to impose a £5,000 fine if an airport does not provide data. I am not entirely clear about this, and I would be grateful if the Minister could clarify. I believe that this is a new power; I am not sure that the CAA has it at the moment. If it does, what is the fine, because £5,000 seems derisory as a fine on a large organisation for failing to provide data? It would cost Heathrow Airport or Gatwick Airport a great deal more than £5,000 to collect the data, so there would be an incentive not to bother. Where does £5,000 come from? Has it been thought through as a penalty that should be paid by a large commercial organisation? It does not seem worth it.
Lord Tunnicliffe (Lab)
My Lords, the points made by my noble friend Lord Berkeley and the noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, are exactly right. I look to the Minister to answer them. I can see why we would want to avoid an obligation, but I cannot for the life of me see why we would not want voluntarily to co-operate with Eurostat. This obviously is a wider question for government as a whole, but in an open society we have to believe that sharing information is a good thing, not a bad thing.
I formally object to the £5,000. It clearly is not within the spirit of the withdrawal Act and therefore the Minister has not prayed that Act in aid but has prayed in aid the draconian European Communities Act 1972. I was not here in 1972 and I have not recently brushed up on the detail, but that Act was created to implement European law. This is not creating European law; it is smuggling in a little correction. I am not going to cause a constitutional crisis by objecting to it, but the Government should not have done it.
Aviation: Boeing 737 MAX 8 Jets
Lord Tunnicliffe Excerpts(7 years, 4 months ago)
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Lord Tunnicliffe
To ask Her Majesty’s Government what discussions they have had with the European Union Aviation Safety Agency and UK flight operators regarding the safety of those travelling on Boeing 737 MAX 8 jets, in response to two fatal incidents involving this model in the last five months.
Lord Tunnicliffe (Lab)
My Lords, I beg leave to ask a Question of which I have given private notice.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Transport (Baroness Sugg) (Con)
My Lords, following the tragic accident yesterday in Ethiopia, the Civil Aviation Authority is working with both the European Aviation Safety Agency and the UK operator to determine what future action may need to be taken. As more information becomes available, we will continue to consider all options to ensure the safety of our citizens here in the UK and across the globe.
Lord Tunnicliffe
My Lords, I flew the 737-200 and 300. In my day we had a rule: if it can go wrong, it will go wrong. The industry seems to have lost sight of that rule. I believe that everybody involved will be shown to be in dereliction of their duty: Boeing for pressing for a ruling that pilots did not need to be informed of the new system on cost grounds; the FAA for agreeing to it; EASA for giving in after initially opposing the Boeing position. The initial report strongly suggests that the latest crash is related. What will the Minister do? Can she explain why the Government are not taking immediate action to ground this aircraft until they have had a satisfactory explanation of the crash?
Baroness Sugg
My Lords, as the noble Lord pointed out, the investigation into the Lion Air accident is ongoing and obviously, the awful accident in Ethiopia happened only yesterday. We are working very closely with EASA, which is discussing the accident with the US Federal Aviation Administration, and any decision to ground flights is best taken at an international level. EASA, which is the validating authority, and the FAA, as the state certifying design, are best placed to take this decision, but of course, we will follow their guidance.
Flybmi
Lord Tunnicliffe Excerpts(7 years, 5 months ago)
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Lord Tunnicliffe (Lab)
My Lords, I thank the Minster for repeating the Answer to the Urgent Question. Eighteen months ago this House questioned Ministers on the collapse of Monarch Airlines, and we were promised things would change—yet here we are.
The Transport Secretary has dithered and delayed for nearly a year in bringing forward new rules on airline insolvencies, so we must ask Ministers what they have been doing. Flybmi has been in difficulty for some time, so what plans did the DfT have for an airline collapse? What plans does it have, or is it putting in place, should another airline be forced into this position?
Why was the airline allowed to sell tickets only hours before entering administration? The Minister detailed some of the actions being taken to support passengers left stranded by cancellations. Do the Government have an estimate of how many UK residents have been affected?
The Minister alluded to the fact that last week the Government agreed to extend the subsidy of Flybmi’s London to Derry route. We have gone from a ferry company with no ferries to a flight path with no flights. Was the DfT aware that the airline was about to collapse when it agreed this commitment of public money? What checks did Ministers do on the airline prior to extending the commitment?
Baroness Sugg
I thank the noble Lord for his questions. On how we are dealing with airline insolvency in the future, we have commissioned an independent review led by Peter Bucks to review consumer protection in the event of an airline or travel company failure. It is looking at options including an orderly wind-down of an airline so that it is able to conduct and finance repatriation options without impact on the taxpayer. The review is also looking at the lessons learned from the collapse of Monarch, and will identify potential market reforms necessary to ensure that passengers are protected when an airline fails. This is a complex issue and it is an extensive report. We are expecting the report in the spring.
Initial estimates are that fewer than 1,000 affected UK-originating passengers are overseas. Many will have already made their way back; many will have been planning to stay abroad. We understand that about two-thirds of those booked to return were on code shares, and those bookings will be honoured.
On the PSO, the department and the CAA were not informed of the administration until very shortly before the directors agreed to it. To be clear, the contract for the PSO is directly with the city of Derry and Strabane council. They are the people who run that contract and it is they who will re-let it shortly.
Air Passenger Rights and Air Travel Organisers’ Licensing (Amendment) (EU Exit) Regulations 2018
Lord Tunnicliffe Excerpts(7 years, 5 months ago)
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Lord Tunnicliffe (Lab)
My Lords, I rise wearily to my feet. The first thing I would like to register is my objection to being here. Once again, we are here to discuss a statutory instrument which addresses the issue of what we do if we leave without a deal. It is a deeply depressing pastime, discussing statutory instruments to lead this country into a catastrophic situation.
It is also depressing that the Government, if they wanted to hang on to what might be an intellectually narrow point, that any responsible Government should prepare for the worst scenario, if they had truly believed that, then surely they would have started the process much earlier so that we are not shovelling SIs through this Chamber by the shovelful, for want of a better way of doing it.
One of the problems of the sheer volume is that I certainly am not having enough time to give the level of scrutiny that I think is appropriate. Therefore, one tends to have to use short methods. The first that one is left to have to use is looking at the regulation itself, which is usually impossible. You need a very expensive lawyer to go through the regulations, see what they amend and what the effects are. The only thing a reasonable amateur such as myself can do is to go to the Explanatory Memorandum and see if it makes sense. If one does that, one comes to paragraph 2.3, which is “Why is it being changed?” I will read it because it is so reassuring:
“This instrument makes the changes needed to retained EU legislation on air passenger rights and domestic legislation made to implement the UK’s obligations under the Package Travel Directive. These changes ensure that the legislation continues to function correctly after the UK has left the EU. They also ensure that there is continuity in terms of the passenger rights that apply to air travel and that consumers will continue to be protected if there is no mutual recognition of insolvency protection regimes after exit day”.
Now, I think that says it is going to be all right, but I am required to scrutinise, so I did my best, and I have worked my way through the document. I confess I did not pick up the ownership point, and I look forward to the Minister’s response on that. If that statement is right, one works through the Explanatory Memorandum, and it puts in changes and does things to make that right. If it is right, can the Minister answer this question: in the event of a no-deal situation and this SI then becomes operative, is there any group of passengers or consumers whose rights and protections are diminished or lost after exit day?
The second question I have relates to the optimistic scenario, where there is a deal and this SI will not be required. One constantly looks for a sunset clause in these SIs which would allow that to operate. Could the Minister explain how we will handle this SI and the others that we are going to face today if there is a deal? Experience has taught me that one of the few things you have to go to in these SIs is the commencement provision. That says that Regulations 5(1) and 5(2) will be commenced 22 days after the regulations are made. That, I assume, will be somewhat before exit day. At present, it seems that the decision on whether we have a deal will be very close to exit day, so, if there is a deal, how is this SI going to be stopped from being enacted without a mechanism within it?
Baroness Sugg
My Lords, I thank all noble Lords for their consideration of these draft regulations. I am grateful for the scrutiny provided by noble Lords. These are important pieces of legislation, and it is right that they are properly scrutinised. I would not class the noble Lord, Lord Warner, or indeed any other noble Lord as a trouble-maker. I will attempt to get to all the questions, but if I do not manage to cover them, I will respond in writing.
On the point made by my noble friend Lady McIntosh, the Explanatory Memorandum sets out the exchange rate used to calculate the amounts. It is the average for the year to 31 December 2017, which has been used across the statutory instruments. There are currently no plans to change that.
In response to the noble Lord, Lord Berkeley, let me say that this regulation will cover all carriers with a UK operating licence. That is issued by the CAA, so that is how we define who will be covered by these regulations in the event of a no-deal exit. The requirements of the operator’s licence are set out in the operation of air services regulations, which we debated last year.
On enforcement, if it is a UK carrier—that is, one with a UK operating licence—the CAA will enforce it. If it is departing from an EU member state, that member state will enforce it, and if it is a UK carrier departing from a third country, the CAA will again enforce it. So the example that my noble friend Lady McIntosh used of a flight departing from the UK will be enforced by the CAA, and the flight which then departs from the EU will be enforced by that relevant member state—I cannot remember which member state she referred to.