European Union (Withdrawal) Bill

Lord Wallace of Saltaire Excerpts

Tuesday 30th January 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Wallace of Saltaire (LD)]

My Lords, I want to make three points: on the degree of freedom the Government are asking for to make secondary legislation; on the absence of guarantees for consultation with English regions and local authorities; and about the uncertain links between withdrawal from the EU treaties and Britain’s future contribution to Europe’s political and security order.

The Leader of the House has just told us that the Bill offers certainty. It does not. The Government are asking both Houses to take an enormous amount on trust. It would be easier to trust the Government if they could provide some indication of what future relationship with the European Union they want to negotiate. Scrutinising this Bill against a background of open disagreements among Ministers and Conservative MPs about future alignment or the divergence of regulation will be peculiarly difficult. If half the Conservative Party does not trust the Cabinet on this, and the unelected journalists of the Daily Mail and the Telegraph are actively mistrustful, how can we grant the Government such wide ministerial discretion?

The cloudy phrases that the Prime Minister trots out to obscure where the Government intend to take us, on a relationship that is fundamental to Britain’s future economy, security and place in the world, make the confusion worse. What is a “bespoke” agreement? A friend has told me that a bespoke suit is one that costs a great deal more than one off the peg, but offers only a few tweaks in the way it is put together. The phrase a “deep and special” agreement is deliberately ambiguous. No Minister has spelled out the subtle differences between a “transitional” agreement and an “implementation” agreement, or the distinction between “a” customs union and “the” customs union. This House is justified, therefore, in narrowing the degree of ministerial discretion that the Bill permits. We have been given little idea of what Ministers might consider “appropriate”, as the Bill says, in exercising the executive powers it gives them. We should therefore amend that term wherever it appears to “necessary”, to narrow the degree of freedom they are given. I hope that this will command support across the House.

There will be much debate in Committee about the implications of Brexit for the devolution settlement with Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland, and whether repatriation will tip the existing balance of competences in favour of Westminster. Those of us who live in the English regions—above all those of us who live in the north—will want to see how far we can insert amendments to provide for effective consultation also with English local authorities. Yorkshire and the north-east have a combined population larger than Scotland, have much greater economic interdependence with the European continent than Wales or Northern Ireland, and have benefited from EU funding while Westminster has starved the north of funds. We will work with the Local Government Association to insert a requirement for consultation in this Bill, unless the Government come forward with clear proposals of their own—and I gather that that is now under discussion.

The Bill’s focus is primarily on repatriating powers under the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union. I will seek also to probe the Government on the implications of withdrawing from the more intergovernmental Treaty on European Union, which is concerned with fundamental rights, democratic principles, common foreign policy, and security and defence policy. Do the Government intend to opt out of any concern about the future European order after we leave? Or do at least some Ministers intend that continued co-operation in these crucial fields will somehow be woven into the “deep and special partnership” that the Government promise us they will eventually define? It would be a complete betrayal of a crucial theme in Margaret Thatcher’s Bruges speech to opt out of sharing the responsibility for maintaining and strengthening a democratic order across the whole of Europe. If I may remind the House, she said:

“Britain does not dream of some cosy, isolated existence on the fringes of the European Community. Our destiny is in Europe, as part of the Community … The European Community is a practical means by which Europe can ensure the future prosperity and security of its people in a world in which there are many other powerful nations and groups of nations”.


This Bill shows that those who claim Mrs Thatcher’s legacy have betrayed it.

However, the Government are now reported to be reconsidering the complete withdrawal from foreign and defence collaboration. There are even whispers about continued membership of the European Defence Agency, covered by Article 45 of the Treaty on European Union. I and others will be probing the Government on what form of continued association they intend to negotiate on the areas covered by Articles 23 to 46 of the TEU, and how they intend to seek parliamentary approval for their engagement in these fields.

Another empty phrase, “We are leaving the European Union but we are not leaving Europe”, is intended to blur the question of how we will associate with the EU’s established frameworks, which successive British Governments, from the noble Lord, Lord Carrington, onwards, helped to build. The Foreign Secretary has said nothing about this central issue so far as I am aware, but we are entitled to an answer as the Bill goes through.

European Council

Lord Wallace of Saltaire Excerpts

Monday 18th December 2017 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park]

I am afraid I do not agree with the noble Lord. The fact that we have got to where we are shows that there is willingness on both sides to work together to make sure that we have a good outcome for both the EU and the UK. I look forward and expect that we will continue the phase 2 negotiations, including around the details of the implementation period, in the constructive manner we have seen so far.

[Lord Wallace of Saltaire (LD)]

My Lords, the Statement starts and ends with references to the foreign and security relationship we hope to build with the European Union after we leave. The Council conclusions of the 28 member Governments, of which we remain, for the moment, one, talk about a new initiative in closer security co-operation among Europeans, which will presumably exclude the United Kingdom. Given that some members of the Conservative Party may be deeply unhappy at any special relationship with the European Union on foreign policy and security after we leave, would it not be a good idea for the Government to begin to set out publicly, for their own public as well as for those with whom they are negotiating, what sort of foreign policy and security relationship we wish to have? I also draw attention to the last sentence, which has some fine words on violent language and threats of violence. Given that the Daily Telegraph and the Daily Mail have led in using violent language against people who have been “traitorous” to the Conservative Party, as they put it, is the Prime Minister planning to call in the editors of those two newspapers by any chance?

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park]

I think the Prime Minister is quite clear in the Statement about the fact that we do not agree with or tolerate such language. In relation to defence, the noble Lord may have been referring to the launch of PESCO, which is an important initiative to encourage collaboration across the European defence industry and has the potential to drive up defence investment across Europe. Although we do not plan to join the PESCO framework, we want to keep open the option to participate at a project level, including after we have left the EU, so we were pleased with the Council conclusions that allow that. In terms of our future relationship, the noble Lord will be aware that we have published a future partnership paper on Foreign Policy, Defence and Development and indicated, for instance, our interest in future partnerships, including a capability collaboration through the European Defence Agency and the Commission’s European defence fund.

Brexit Negotiations

Lord Wallace of Saltaire Excerpts

Monday 11th December 2017 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park]

The joint report sets out that the common travel area with Ireland will be maintained.

[Lord Wallace of Saltaire (LD)]

I note that the Statement gives a lot of importance to getting out from under any jurisdiction of the European Court of Justice. I find that a little surprising in view of the recent report by the Institute for Government, which shows that the British Government have fewer cases before the European Court of Justice than do most other members of the European Union—and, indeed, that most of those are decided in favour of the UK. I am puzzled also as to whether the deep concern with national sovereignty and the willingness to make financial and economic concessions in order to regain this sovereignty applies to other international courts. The Leader of the House may be aware that President Trump has just attacked the arbitration tribunal of the World Trade Organization, suggesting that it is biased against the United States, that it does not respect American sovereignty and that the United States might have to leave the World Trade Organization. Do the British Government sympathise with President Trump in that suspicion of international courts, or is it is just the European Court of Justice that we object to?

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park]

EU citizens’ rights in the UK will be upheld by implementing the agreement in our law, instead of continued EU law enforced by the EU courts. Our courts will pay due regard to EU case law as agreed at the point of exit to interpret that law as needs be, just as they decide our law now in reference to international law, where relevant, such as the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child.

European Council

Lord Wallace of Saltaire Excerpts

Monday 23rd October 2017 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park]

I certainly agree that all the Cabinet is focused on ensuring that we achieve a good deal. We all want that and are all behind the Prime Minister. As I have already said, the response from other leaders at the EU Council shows that we are making progress and that there is a willingness for us all to move on. That is what we must focus on.

[Lord Wallace of Saltaire (LD)]

My Lords, I welcome the Government’s change of position on continuing post-Brexit co-operation on internal security and foreign policy. The problem I have is that what I hear from the Government is that we want to continue but are waiting for the EU to propose how. Will we have any of our own proposals on how we will manage when we leave the extensive institutional co-operation in foreign policy which has grown up, often under British initiative, in the last 40 years, or when we leave Europol, if we are going to leave? I remember the nonsense from the leave campaign about how Interpol was perfectly adequate and we did not need Europol. Clearly we do. What proposals are the Government going to make on this, or are they simply going to say that the other side have to tell us how it can be done?

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park]

The noble Lord will be aware that we have published, I think, 14 various types of papers over the last few weeks, some of which were on security. In fact, the EU 27 has made clear in its negotiation guidelines that it stands ready to establish partnerships in the fight against terrorism and international crime as well as on security, defence and foreign policy. We are working on those details. We certainly value, for instance, the role of Europol in helping law enforcement agencies co-ordinate investigations, and there is good precedent for third-country participation in it. Structures are already in place, which we will be looking to involve ourselves in. We want a relationship in this area, and understand the importance of it, but obviously the detail will be for the negotiations.

Brexit: UK Plans

Lord Wallace of Saltaire Excerpts

Monday 9th October 2017 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park]

I have no doubt that the Prime Minister does and will continue to exercise her authority. I want to reassure noble Lords again: the Cabinet is united. We want to get the best possible deal for the UK and the EU, and to ensure a smooth and orderly withdrawal, and that is what we are all working towards.

[Lord Wallace of Saltaire (LD)]

My Lords, I welcome the Government’s acceptance now that there are broad security dimensions of leaving the European Union and that the European Union has always had large security elements involved with it. I recall the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth, denying that that was the case, and the leave campaign certainly did not accept it. Can the Government begin to tell us something about how they will maintain the relationship both on cross-border security and in terms of defence, foreign policy and intelligence, after we leave? Looking round the Chamber, I think there are one or two Members old enough to remember, for example, a body called the Western European Union. It existed solely to allow the United Kingdom to have conversations with the then six members of the European Community on foreign and security policy when we were otherwise outside the room. Do we imagine that we are going to try to persuade others to set up some sort of special arrangement of this sort or will we hope to maintain, for example, the current multilateral intelligence arrangements through associate membership of Europol? As the position paper on this said, these are clearly in our national interests.

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park]

I entirely agree with the noble Lord that this is an extremely important area. As I said, it is very encouraging that the European Council’s negotiating guidelines also identify the importance of partnerships against crime and terrorism. The specific details will obviously be for the negotiations but I say again that no pre-existing model of co-operation between the EU and third countries replicates the scale and depth of the collaboration that exists between the EU and the UK in this area. We want to maintain that, which is why we want to work towards new arrangements that go beyond any arrangements the EU has in this area at the moment.

European Council

Lord Wallace of Saltaire Excerpts

Monday 26th June 2017 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park]

My noble friend raises an important issue and that is why we are trying to discuss this matter at a very early stage. We want to see whether, with the EU, we can come forward with proposals that give people the certainty they want, and we believe that we have put forward a fair and serious offer to begin those discussions.

[Lord Wallace of Saltaire (LD)]

Are the Government considering extending the new proposal for some form of identification card for immigrants from the EU to the majority of immigrants to this country who come from outside the EU? Will that be in the forthcoming immigration Bill? It seems rather illogical to introduce this sort of scheme for people moving to this country from inside the EU but not for the majority of immigrants who, every year since we have worried about immigration, come from the rest of the world. Therefore, would it not be appropriate for the Government to propose a general scheme for foreigners within Britain—perhaps under something called the “Aliens Act”?

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park]

As I said, we will bring forward proposals for a future immigration scheme in due course.

European Union (Notification of Withdrawal) Bill

Lord Wallace of Saltaire Excerpts

Monday 20th February 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord Wallace of Saltaire (LD)]

My Lords, the speech of the noble Lord, Lord Cashman, makes it quite clear that the country is divided—in some ways more divided now than it was before the referendum—and that this process as it continues could lead to the country and its regions becoming increasingly divided. That gives us a great responsibility in how we contribute to the debate.

This House has an entirely legitimate role to play in scrutinising the Government’s approach to Brexit, both as the process proceeds and when it comes to the final package. Our role as a revising Chamber is not to throw out Bills at Second Reading but to examine the rationale for the proposals they contain. It is our role as a second Chamber to weigh up the Government’s proposals against our understanding of the national interest and to challenge the Government when we consider that their arguments do not make sense.

The Vote Leave campaign made much play before the referendum of the principle of restoring parliamentary sovereignty. Since June it has argued, in contradiction to that principle, that neither Chamber of Parliament can claim a significant role in scrutinising the Government’s changing interpretation of what leaving the European Union means. The will of the people, the Daily Mail insists, requires that we now accept whatever the Government put forward. So we are in danger of slipping from parliamentary democracy to direct democracy in which an authoritarian political leader is allowed to interpret occasional expressions of the popular will without a continuing process of criticism.

Nigel Farage’s French lodger, about whom the press showed much interest recently, is the director of the Institute for Direct Democracy in Europe, an institute supported by a group of hard-right nationalist parties across the EU—direct democracy against the necessary compromises and reasoned arguments of parliamentary democracy, in which popular fears and emotions are exploited by media and populist leaders to bully the opposition and target foreigners and minorities. The Conservative Government should not slip down that road, which would betray the best of the Conservative tradition.

It is not that I think that our current Prime Minister is in any way comparable to Donald Trump or Marine Le Pen, but I do fear that she has been captured by the authoritarian right of her party and the almost anti-democratic hysteria of the Daily Mail. Those of us who still believe in parliamentary democracy, with reasoned debate and with attention to evidence and detail at its core, must therefore insist that this Chamber, as part of Parliament, has an important role to play.

Ministers spent a good deal of time and effort quietly examining the detailed costs and benefits of EU membership under the coalition Government at the insistence of the Conservative side. Thirty-two papers on the balance of competences between the EU and the UK were carefully negotiated over 24 months on the basis of widespread consultation with stakeholders and experts in each sector, and the overwhelming consensus was that in most respects the current balance took UK interests well into account. Sadly, the response from the then Prime Minister in No. 10 was to bury the exercise as deeply as he could for fear of enraging the Europhobe right, so the public were left uninformed. But this Prime Minister cannot afford to bury sectional national interests and the impact of Brexit on them as negotiations move forward. If, at the end of the process, the gap between today’s optimistic promises and the hard compromises of the final package is too wide, the public will blame the Conservatives for the result.

Conservatives should therefore recognise that it is in their own enlightened interest to accept the amendment tabled by my noble friend Lord Newby and others that requires a resolution of both Houses on the final package and a national referendum on the terms agreed, and it is in the Government’s enlightened interest to inform Parliament and the public of what it is realistically possible to achieve as they move forward, rather than raising illusory hopes now and attracting outrage when they fall short later.

The recent White Paper still suggests that Britain can have its cake and eat it in sector after sector. It states:

“This Government will make no attempt to remain in the EU by the backdoor”.


Nevertheless, it lists a long series of areas where it is confident that the UK can retain close co-operation, from scientific research to aviation, medicines, food safety, chemicals and financial services. That simply will not be possible if we are entirely outside.

The White Paper also pledges to maintain close co-operation on internal security, intelligence and crime, but without accepting judicial oversight of such sensitive issues. That will not be possible either.

On foreign policy, the White Paper repeats the meaningless phrase that we are,

“leaving the EU, not leaving Europe”—

a phrase repeated by the Leader of the House yet again today—and suggests that we will continue to participate in EU military and civilian missions “across the globe”, through the EU’s back door, no doubt.

Boris Johnson, meanwhile, is making speeches in India and the Gulf promising that an increasing proportion of our Armed Forces will in future be deployed east of Suez, as far away from Europe as possible, and last week he was in the Gambia proclaiming the revival of the Commonwealth while the Canadian Prime Minister was visiting Brussels and Strasbourg to celebrate Canada’s trade agreement with the European Union. The Prime Minister says that we must be a world power but that none of us must be citizens of that world. I cannot recall a point in my lifetime when British foreign policy has been as incoherent as it is today.

This has the potential for a train crash, so the House should give the Government a qualified and conditional authority to proceed with negotiations to leave, as the amendments we will discuss in Committee propose.

Infrastructure Improvements: Funding

Lord Wallace of Saltaire Excerpts

Wednesday 23rd November 2016 Lords Chamber

[Lord Young of Cookham]

Again, the noble Lord is somewhat harsh in his judgment. I very much hope he will welcome the extra money that has been found at a time of great difficulty for investment in research and development.

[Lord Wallace of Saltaire (LD)]

My Lords, the last Chancellor of the Exchequer suggested that infrastructure for the northern powerhouse could be paid for mainly by the Chinese. As many Ministers now talk about the importance of British independence, should the Government be quite so dependent on China for infrastructure?

[Lord Young of Cookham]

I very much hope that this country will remain open for business and that we will continue to attract private inward investment to help modernise infrastructure. We have a world-class regulatory system and strong financial and capital markets. I see no reason at all why we should do anything to discourage inward investment in our infrastructure from overseas investors.

Government: Ministerial Changes

Lord Wallace of Saltaire Excerpts

Monday 18th July 2016 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab)]

My Lords, in leading the tributes today to the noble Baroness, Lady Stowell, I believe we should all acknowledge the personal commitment that she has brought to her role as the Leader of the House—a position which is never easy in a House that values its independence and welcomes the opportunity to deploy its experience and expertise. It is a dual role, as the leader of the government party in your Lordships’ House but, equally importantly, as the leader of the whole House. It is also a role that faces both ways, being both the Government’s voice in your Lordships’ House and the voice of your Lordships’ House in Government. This is also the first time ever that the government party has found itself without an automatic majority in this House, and that requires careful and thoughtful management from all of us. When the noble Baroness took office, just two years ago, she said she was,

“very conscious of the great privilege of being Leader”—[Official Report, 15/7/14; col. 500]—

and that has always been evident.

In paying tribute to the noble Baroness, Lady Stowell, I also warmly welcome the new Leader, the noble Baroness, Lady Evans of Bowes Park. Like the noble Baroness, Lady Stowell, she brings with her the experience of the Whips’ Office and did not take her seat in your Lordships’ House with the ambition of becoming Leader but with the ambition of serving her party and her country. We have already seen the enthusiasm she has brought to her work, and we wish her well.

I think that the noble Baroness, Lady Stowell, would agree that the highlight of her time in your Lordships’ House—so far—has been her commitment and skill in taking through the Marriage (Same Sex Couples) Bill. On an issue about which some dared to doubt that your Lordships’ House would be constructive, she brought both political judgment and humour to what might have been some difficult debates. Who will ever forget her explanation on adultery? She explained that if she were married to George Clooney, under the then existing law:

“Should I wish to divorce Mr Clooney on those grounds, I would do so on the grounds of unreasonable behaviour. In future, if the noble Lord, Lord Alli, was to marry Mr Clooney, and Mr Clooney was to have an affair with me—and who would blame him in those circumstances?—that would be adultery and the noble Lord, Lord Alli, should he choose to, would be able to divorce Mr Clooney on those grounds”.—[Official Report, 8/7/13; col. 146.]

The wit and careful thought she brought to that debate helped us all better appreciate the details. George Clooney has since married, but I am told that the life-size cut-out that once graced her office is still around.

The noble Baroness, Lady Stowell, has been the Leader of the House through some difficult times, including the recent referendum on leaving the EU. At all times, her commitment to the House and her honesty have been clear. On a personal level, I add my thanks to her for being open and candid with me—we have not always agreed, but we have always had enjoyable and cordial meetings. We wish her every success in her new challenge.

[Lord Wallace of Saltaire (LD)]

My Lords, from these Benches I pay a warm and special tribute to the noble Baroness, Lady Stowell. She and I first worked closely together on the Bill to which the noble Baroness, Lady Smith of Basildon, referred, the Marriage (Same Sex Couples) Bill in 2013. I certainly remember very well the evening when she tackled what was a difficult issue with great humour and was able to explain it in a way which, at the end of the day, everyone understood. It received Royal Assent three years ago last week. That was a productive and friendly working relationship, and one that continued not only during our time together in government, when I served as her deputy as Deputy Leader of the House, but since the general election last year when, although on opposite sides of your Lordships’ House, we still had to meet regularly, always with cordial co-operation, albeit that we did not always agree.

The skill that the noble Baroness demonstrated in steering that Bill through the House and dealing with the many difficult issues during her time as a Minister in the Department for Communities and Local Government put her in good stead to lead your Lordships’ House. During her tenure as Leader, the noble Baroness constantly looked to see how we could improve the ways in which we operate to ensure that we are as effective as possible in how we conduct ourselves—as has been said, it is never easy. I know from our many conversations that she was ever mindful of trying to safeguard the reputation of your Lordships’ House, particularly when we are understandably under so much public scrutiny.

The noble Baroness also recognised some of the shortcomings of our domestic governance arrangements and set up a working group under the direction of the noble Baroness, Lady Shephard of Northwold, to review and make recommendations for new ways of working. The final Motions to put those changes into effect are due to be put before the House on Thursday, and I am sure these new structures will serve as a lasting legacy to the work of the noble Baroness, Lady Stowell, and her determination to ensure that this House always looks to improve itself and to be the best it can be.

I also take the opportunity to welcome the noble Baroness, Lady Evans of Bowes Park, to the role of Leader of the House. She takes on this role at a momentous time for our country as the Government negotiate our withdrawal from the European Union. I know your Lordships’ House will take a keen and particular interest in these negotiations as they progress, and I am sure the weight of experience in this House and the very valuable work done by our European Union Committee will be of assistance to her as she represents our House in government.

When I welcomed the noble Baroness, Lady Stowell, to her role as Leader on 15 July 2014, I noted that later that afternoon she would have to attend her first meeting of the House Committee. The noble Baroness, Lady Evans, will have to wait a bit longer for that particular perk of office—it will be tomorrow afternoon. Indeed, when I saw on today’s Order Paper the Motion substituting the noble Baroness, Lady Evans, for the noble Baroness, Lady Stowell, on a whole range of committees, I recalled that when I succeeded my noble friend Lord McNally as leader of the Liberal Democrat Peers, the previous Chairman of Committees moved a similar Motion and said that he did so with commiseration. Aspiring candidates to succeed me on these Benches may wish to take note.

I look forward to working with the noble Baroness, Lady Evans, for a few more weeks still, and wish her the best of luck in her new role as Leader of Your Lordships’ House.

[Lord Hope of Craighead (CB)]

My Lords, on behalf of my colleagues on the Cross Benches, I, too, associate myself with the warm and well-deserved tributes that have been paid to the noble Baroness, Lady Stowell, and wish her well as she returns, as I am sure she will, to the Back Benches. Like others in the House, I confess to having been taken aback by the speed of events last week. The first indication I had that she was no longer to be Leader and Lord Privy Seal was when I arrived at her office at midday on Thursday for one of my regular fortnightly meetings with her to be told for the first time ever by one of her secretaries that she was too busy to see me. Unexpectedly, the meeting had had to be cancelled. As I returned down the corridor to walk back to my office, the expression on the faces of various people whom I passed who already knew more than I did suggested that there was much more to it than that. The sadness at what was happening was very evident.

I know from my many meetings with her during the past year in my capacity as Convener, which I very much valued, how much she cared for this House. Her sudden departure has meant that some of the things that she wished to do will have been left undone, but she has done much, as the noble Lord, Lord Wallace, said, to promote and carry through fundamental reform of the committee structure by which the business affairs of the House are to be governed, and that can indeed be regarded as her legacy. She brought home her concern for the traditions and customs of the House to me on a personal level, too. On several occasions, when it seemed to her that I had said or done something that was not quite right, she was quite candid—to adopt the adjective used by the noble Baroness, Lady Smith. She would tick me off. I can assure your Lordships that this was always done with a smile on her face, in the most tactful manner. As a newcomer to the arcane arts which I have now to perform on behalf of my colleagues on these Benches, I valued those gentle reminders, and I was grateful for her guidance and encouragement. They were a reminder to me, too, of how much she cared for the traditions and best interests of this House. We wish her well and look forward to the contribution that she can certainly make to our work in the future.

I take this opportunity to welcome most warmly to her very important role the noble Baroness, Lady Evans of Bowes Park. She brings to its responsibilities a very evident spirit of energy and enthusiasm—and, dare I say it, unusually for a Member of this House, she has youth on her side, too. These are challenging times, when those qualities will be much needed. On behalf of the Cross-Bench group, I look forward very much to working with her in my capacity as Convenor, and I wish her all success as she enters into the duties of her office.

Housing and Planning Bill

Lord Wallace of Saltaire Excerpts

Wednesday 13th April 2016 Lords Chamber

[Lord Beecham (Lab)]

My Lords, the amendments in this group relate to the extension of the right to buy to housing association tenants, for the time being under a so-called voluntary scheme entered into by the sector with the Government. On several occasions I have expressed my scepticism about how long the agreement will remain voluntary. I pointed out in Committee that the Bill’s impact assessment states explicitly, in somewhat minatory fashion:

“Primary legislation is also required to monitor how these opportunities are being adopted so potential homeowners can hold their housing association to account, if necessary”.

The nostrum of Theodore Roosevelt comes to mind:

“Speak softly and carry a big stick”—

a view reinforced by the fact that the agreement contains a “presumption” that associations will agree to tenants’ applications to exercise their right. The very word, it might be thought, gives the game away.

So I ask the Minister whether the monitoring process applies not just to sales but to the number, type and location of the replacement housing which is supposed to be built. How often will the monitoring take place and by whom will it be performed? Will it really be possible to replicate as a result of this policy developments such as the famous Bournville village, still flourishing as a distinctive community 125 years since its conception?

In Committee, I went on to point out that the so-called impact assessment did not contain any estimate of the number of homes which might be sold, over what period, how much is expected to be realised and what the cost of discounts would be and how they would be met. Is the Minister able to enlighten us as to these rather critical factors in terms of the operation of the scheme?

There is no requirement to replace any houses sold in the local authority area where they are situated, nor need the replacements be of the same tenure. In some cases that might prove difficult, which serves only to emphasise the way in which the current mix within communities is likely to change, a factor which is the special concern raised in Amendment 52 in the names of the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of St Albans and my noble friend Lady Royall.

The long-term effects are likely to reflect the experience of the forced sale of council housing, where now something like 40% of houses which were sold under right to buy are owned by private landlords, with rents which have soared—increases which, in turn, have been reflected in an increasing cost to the Government through housing benefit.

Even allowing for the unspoken threat of compulsion—which, with a bigger Conservative majority, I suspect, would have already resulted in a compulsory scheme—there is a marked contrast with the cavalier approach towards local housing authorities. They not only have to offer ever-larger discounts to their tenants but also, adding injury to insult, have to pay for the scheme by the sale of high-value homes, the subject of amendments in later groups.

In Committee, the noble Baroness, Lady Williams, in replying to the noble Lord, Lord Young of Cookham, said that the Government were discussing with the sector the issue of the application of the agreement to properties constructed under Section 106 agreements and whether or not they would be included. Perhaps the noble Baroness can update us on that position.

The noble Baroness also responded to an amendment from this Front Bench seeking to exclude properties specifically designed for elderly or disabled residents of the scheme by saying that it would be “wholly unequal”—I think she meant inequitable—to prevent such residents having the opportunity to share in the benefits of home ownership, and that a property which had been adapted specifically for a tenant and selling it,

“and freeing the capital to build a new unit for the next person in need is the best outcome”.—[Official Report, 8/3/16; col. 1228.]

It might be, but there is no requirement to do so. Nor does the purchase have to be by elderly or disabled people.

The term “purpose-built bungalows” in developments such as, I say modestly again, Beecham Close—built in Newcastle in my ward—could easily over time be occupied by people for whom they were not designed. They are perfectly accessible properties specifically designed for elderly people but they could go to anyone after resale, let alone preserve the character of a group specifically designed to bring people with similar needs together.

Amendment 51 seeks to ensure that the full market value of properties sold by associations under right to buy is invested by the association in the same local authority area to provide affordable housing of at least one new replacement home of the same tenure and in accordance with assessed housing need. It therefore prescribes this in addition to any conditions which the Secretary of State considers appropriate under existing Clause 62(2). I beg to move.

[Lord Wallace of Saltaire (LD)]

My Lords, I am not an expert on housing but in the previous coalition Government I spent three years speaking in this House for charities, and I am concerned about the implications of this aspect of the Bill for charity law. In the past two or three weeks I have spoken to a number of charity lawyers and people concerned with charities and it was suggested that we might wish to table an amendment to exempt charities from this. However, at this stage, I ask the Government for some reassurance that they have considered the potential impact on charities of this development and that they would be willing to meet with and discuss further with representatives of the Almshouse Association, the Charities’ Property Association and the Charity Law Association to think through the implications of the Bill and, incidentally, the plans to make all schools, some of which have charitable property, into academies, which also raises large questions about the future of charity law.

There are questions of public benefit—and private benefit if one is selling off properties—which again raise some large issues and which, potentially, drive a coach and horses through the underlying principles of charity law. As the noble Lord, Lord Beecham, has hinted, this is particularly relevant to almshouses, which are specifically built and permanently endowed for old people. The idea that they should be sold off and then perhaps diverted to different uses raises some fundamental issues.

[Lord Lansley (Con)]

I am grateful to the noble Lord for giving way. Am I missing something? Were we not told explicitly during Committee that almshouses would be exempted?

[Lord Wallace of Saltaire]

I apologise if that is the case. If almshouses are exempted that is helpful; nevertheless, the issues which the noble Lord, Lord Beecham, raised about houses specifically adapted for particular purposes remains true and very much part of the case.

The question of permanent endowment of property, which also relates to housing associations, many of which are charitable, remains at stake. There are issues here about the potential move from voluntary to a little less than voluntary, which is implied in the suggestion that the noble Lord talked about, when providing guidance. The lawyers with whom I have discussed this tell me that so long as it remains entirely voluntary, we will remain on the right side of the law. But if the guidance issued by the Government after passing the Act moved towards the border between voluntary and non-voluntary, we would indeed be risking some of the underlying principles of charitable law. My simple request to the Minister is that, in order to provide reassurance to this extremely important sector—I am sure that all Conservatives are committed to the future flourishing of the charitable third sector—she be willing to ensure that the relevant officials and Ministers meet with representatives of the expert associations so that such reassurances can be given.

[Lord Young of Cookham (Con)]

My Lords, perhaps I may intervene briefly on these two amendments. I have some sympathy with Amendment 52. As a former Member for a rural constituency, I know how important housing association properties for rent are in small villages. They contribute to the balanced communities that we want to retain, so I understand the concerns here. However, the amendment is entirely unnecessary because under the voluntary agreement there is absolutely no obligation on rural housing associations to sell their properties. Indeed, they are closer to the problem than almost anyone else, so it is most unlikely that, given the nature of the voluntary agreement, they would want to sell these properties.

The voluntary agreement specifically refers to properties in rural areas as examples of circumstances where housing associations may exercise discretion over sales, so in a sense the amendment is redundant. Also, if a housing association actually wanted to sell a property in these areas, the amendment would not prevent it doing so. All the amendment would do is stop the Secretary of State giving the housing association a grant to replace the property. I shall go back to the first point I made: certainly, the housing associations that were active in my former constituency would not, given the nature of the voluntary agreement, dispose of a property for rent in a rural area because they are more aware than almost anyone else of how valuable these properties are.

Amendment 51 is much more serious. It invites the Government to break the voluntary agreement they have entered into with the housing associations. It states:

“The Secretary of State must set as a condition under subsection (2) that money equivalent”,

must be spent in a particular way. Chapter 2 of the voluntary agreement makes it absolutely clear that the Government want housing associations to have flexibility:

“Housing associations would have flexibility to use receipts so they can respond to market pressures and local housing need. In order to facilitate this, the definition of a replacement home would be broad and include the development of Starter Homes, shared ownership homes and other part buy and part rent models”,

excluded by the amendment. The agreement goes on to say that,

“in some limited circumstances, it may not be appropriate or desirable for a housing association to build a new home to replace the one sold”,

since it may be easier to buy another one or bring an empty home back into use to replace the home that has been sold. I very much hope that my noble friend the Minister is not going to break the voluntary agreement, endorsed by the Prime Minister, that the Government have entered into by lending any support to Amendment 51.