Children’s Wellbeing and Schools Bill

Debate between Lord Watson of Invergowrie and Baroness Butler-Sloss

Tuesday 17th June 2025 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Butler-Sloss (CB)]

My Lords, what the noble Baroness, Lady Berridge, has just said is entirely sensible, and, if I may, I add my voice to it.

I did not know about this group of children. It seems wrong in principle that they should not be treated in exactly the same way as all other children in this particularly vulnerable group. As the noble Baroness, Lady Barran, pointed out, they are quite obviously the most vulnerable of all the children. I declare my interest as patron of the Atkinson unit in Exeter, which is secure accommodation.

What I am really standing up for on this is not only to understand and support in principle what the noble Baroness, Lady Barran, is saying but to express some concerns. I will just take, as an example, Amendment 120. If this child under the age of 13—and that is a very sad circumstance to have a child under 13—is under an order of the court, the Secretary of State would not be able to deal with it further than suggesting that the court order should be reversed. It is important that, when looking at these amendments, one has to bear in mind that it appears that deprivation of liberty may be able to be made without the introduction of the court. In so far as the court is concerned, I remind the Committee, as a former lawyer and judge, that neither the Home Office, the Department for Education nor any other government department can actually change the law of England other than through the parliamentary process. I have no doubt at all that the Minister knows that perfectly well, but it seems to me we have to be a little careful about the extent of the suggested use of these amendments.

I entirely understand what is intended, and it is entirely laudable, but we just need to be very careful as regards in what circumstances and whether there will be a court order. My recollection is that, in the past, Section 25 orders were also made in the family proceedings court. Not a word has been said about that now, and it may be that that does not happen any longer, but certainly there continue to be orders under the inherent jurisdiction, so I just make that warning to your Lordships.

[Lord Watson of Invergowrie (Lab)]

My Lords, noble Lords often say in this Chamber that it is a pleasure to follow whichever noble Lord or noble Baroness. I cannot say it is a pleasure to follow the noble and learned Baroness, Lady Butler-Sloss, because, given the depth and detail of what she says and the experience she brings as a former judge—and she always speaks without a note—it is not a pleasure but humbling to be given the role of speaking in her wake, as it were. She is, as ever, extremely impressive and adds so much to our debates.

I want to speak to Amendment 506B in my name, on the use of accommodation for deprivation of liberty. When a child is in a secure setting, there is a robust framework for reviewing the suitability of arrangements for deprivation of liberty, including through the appointment of independent persons. Where deprivation of liberty orders are used in other accommodation arrangements, the same safeguards may simply not be there. So there need to be additional safeguards, including, as recommended by the Children’s Commissioner, a record in the looked-after child census, including the type of setting and the length of and reasons for restrictions placed. Also, wherever possible, independent advocacy should be provided for all children where a deprivation of liberty order is being considered or is in place.

Clause 11 provides a statutory framework for children to be deprived of their liberty in accommodation other than a secure children’s home through amending Section 25 of the Children Act 1989. The intention is for there to be parity with secure children’s homes in terms of access to legal aid. But the current position for parents and anyone with parental responsibility in these cases is that they are entitled only to means-tested legal aid. Such means tests are very restrictive; research by the Law Society has demonstrated that even those living in poverty can fail the financial eligibility test for legal aid.

Many parents are therefore left to navigate these complex legal proceedings on their own. The result of these court hearings is significant for children because it could lead to a child being put into a placement that is many miles away from their home environment and their local network of support—mirroring the arguments that we heard in the last group of amendments. Additionally, deprivation of liberty orders are increasingly being used to place children in unregistered accommodation —I will not go there again—due to the lack of secure children’s home places.

According to figures published by the Family Court Statistics Quarterly, there were 1,280 applications to the High Court for deprivation of liberty orders for children in 2024, of which 132 were for children 12 years of age and under. That total figure represents a 120% increase since 2020-21 figures, which themselves reflected a fourfold increase since 2017-18—again, according to the Law Society. By way of comparison, there were 261 applications for secure accommodation for children in 2024.

The noble Baroness, Lady Berridge, mentioned the Nuffield Foundation; the Nuffield Family Justice Observatory found that almost 90% of parents and carers were not legally represented at any hearings in applications made under the High Court’s inherent jurisdiction for deprivation of liberty orders. For an event of such importance to those families involved, that is surely a worryingly high figure and is just unacceptable.

It is surely a basic human right for no child to be deprived of their liberty, particularly into an unregistered placement, without their parents having access to legal advice and representation. There should always be access to non-means tested legal aid for parents and carers in these cases, and Amendment 506B would provide for that.

Children and Social Work Bill [HL]

Debate between Lord Watson of Invergowrie and Baroness Butler-Sloss

Ping Pong (Hansard): House of Lords
Tuesday 4th April 2017 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Butler-Sloss (CB)]

My Lords, I had not intended to speak, but an issue has been raised that I want to underline. I entirely support government Amendment 12 from the Commons. It seems to me very good sense and I therefore do not support the various amendments to the government amendment. One point in particular comes out from the warning given by the noble Lord, Lord McColl, about trust in parents and what the noble Baroness, Lady Tyler, said about the lack of proper education, with those who do not really know how to teach it in schools.

If Amendment 12 is to work, and I very much hope that it will, the Government must look with great care at the education of those who are going to teach this subject. If the schools continue to have a large number of people who are not properly educated to do so, the point made by the noble Lord, Lord McColl, about the trust of parents will be entirely lost and the benefit of Amendment 12 will itself be lost.

[Lord Watson of Invergowrie (Lab)]

My Lords, we are approaching the final destination of the “Magical Mystery Tour” which has been the Children and Social Work Bill. The Minister is of an age that he will understand the allegory. Indeed, it was 50 years ago this month that that song was recorded. It is not quite as long as that but it is still quite a time since the Bill was introduced to your Lordships’ House. Indeed it is sobering to consider the changes to the political landscape in the 11 months since then. David Cameron was Prime Minister, Nicky Morgan was Secretary of State for Education and the Minister himself was assisted on the Front Bench by the noble Baroness, Lady Evans of Bowes Park—all of whom have now departed, although only one is pleased to have done so.

It would lengthen this debate considerably, and I am not going to do it, if I were to list the various amendments to the Bill secured by opposition parties and Cross-Benchers in your Lordships’ House; only one of them required a vote, albeit on the most contentious part of the Bill—the original Clause 15 under the somewhat euphemistically named heading, “Power to test different ways of working”. I do not propose to open that for debate this afternoon but, given that the Government have chosen not to reinsert the clauses that were taken out in your Lordships’ House on Report, what does the Minister feel has changed between his impassioned speech against deleting the clauses on Report in November and the Government’s decision not to attempt to reinsert them?

In relation to Amendment 12F in my name, the intention was to ensure that the Government accepted the recommendation of the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee in regard to guidance and regulations. The response from the Minister to the committee chair, the noble Baroness, Lady Fookes, who was on the Woolsack until a few moments ago, was received yesterday by noble Lords. It does and does not meet those recommendations, I would say. Indeed, it indulges in some rather tortuous syntax in doing so. Not all regulations relating to the new provision will be subject to the affirmative procedure. We now know that amendments to existing legislation will be subject to that procedure but that regulations that do not amend primary or secondary legislation will not be. Nevertheless, in what appears to be a confusing—some might say contradictory—statement, the Minister’s letter goes on to say: “In practice, the affirmative procedure will apply to all regulations which we will be making to establish the new regime”.

It would be most helpful if the Minister would clarify what “in practice” means because either it is affirmative or negative. I am not aware of a halfway house. If it is the Government’s intention that what they call the new regime should be in the affirmative procedure then why not just say so? The Minister’s letter has just about done enough to satisfy me on Amendment 12F, but it would have been helpful had it been more clearly worded. The Minister stated to noble Lords in his letter of 13 March that he expected the guidance to be published early in 2018. We hope that he will meet that deadline and ensure that it is updated regularly as becomes appropriate.

It goes without saying that we very much welcome the inclusion of Commons Amendments 12 and 13. In my 18 months of facing the Minister at the Dispatch Box, I have on several occasions raised the need for sex and relationships education and personal, social, health and economic education to be formally part of the curriculum—not nearly as often, of course, as my noble friend Lady Massey, whom I was very pleased to hear complimented on her hard work on this over a long period. The response from the Minister was that it was not the availability but the quality of PSHE teaching that mattered and that it was important that all children have access to high-quality teaching—something that the Government did not believe would be achieved simply by statute. There was pressure from noble Lords in all parties and an Education Select Committee report in 2015 was unequivocal in its recommendation. In Scotland, sex and relationships education was already part of the curriculum, yet it seemed that nothing would convince the Government to alter their position on this, although we were always assured that it was “under review”—as all government policy should be at all times.

I have no doubt that a change of Secretary of State played an important part, but it took a cross-party effort and the involvement of the Women and Equalities Select Committee in the other place to build sufficient support and momentum behind the issue. I commend both that committee and Ministers for the fact that this has resulted in the new clauses proposed by Amendments 12 and 13 being inserted in the Bill. The amendments place a duty on the Secretary of State to make relationships and sex education a statutory requirement through regulations and give her power to make personal, social, health and economic education a statutory requirement in all schools. The fact that this includes state-funded and independent schools in all cases is also to be welcomed.

I have some questions for the Minister on the amendments. It is, of course, correct that the provisions will ensure that the education provided to pupils in relationships education and RSE is appropriate to the age of the pupils and their religious background. This issue has been touched on quite a bit in relation to the Equality Act and the noble Lords, Lord Paddick and Lord Storey, and the noble Baroness, Lady Walmsley, all dealt with aspects of it. I echo the comments made by noble Lords in relation to the Roman Catholic Church. The Catholic Education Service has been quite progressive on this matter and has been in touch with noble Lords setting out its clear support for the proposals, which I welcome. However, it is feared that some faith schools may seek to circumvent the legislation by teaching that same-sex relationships are somehow wrong or sinful. I was encouraged by the Minister’s comment on the Equality Act in his opening remarks and his assurance that all details will be covered by regulations debated in both Houses. A lot of people will take comfort for having that on the record as this legislation enters the statute book.

Ofsted’s role under this legislation will be no less important. Will the Minister give assurances that Ofsted will have the necessary resources—including additional ones if necessary—to allow it to make sure that the new legislation is adhered to? This is particularly important in regard to sexual offences in schools, some 5,000 of which were reported to the police by UK schools over the three-year period to 2015. Of these, 600 were rape, which seems barely credible, but this is what the police report. As we have heard, many boys are learning about sex from online pornography and some schools are failing in their legal obligation to keep girls safe. The Minister will, no doubt, agree that Ofsted must include these issues in its inspections and this should be set out clearly in the inspections handbook. Can he confirm that that is the case?

With the exception of the noble Lord, Lord McColl, noble Lords were broadly, if not completely, behind the Government’s amendments. I disagree with the case made by the noble Lord, Lord McColl, although it was well argued. I do not see this legislation as being in place of parents—it should complement what they are doing. At the moment, parents will be handling sex education in the way they believe is appropriate, but for many it is an extremely difficult subject to tackle. Many noble Lords will have been in that position themselves some years ago and it has not changed. It is essential for schools to ensure that all pupils learn about safety in forming and maintaining relationships, the characteristics of healthy relationships and how relationships may affect physical and mental health and well-being. Research by the charity Barnardo’s, which works with victims of sexual exploitation, has revealed that many who were groomed to be sexually exploited were not always aware that they were being manipulated or coerced for sexual purposes. These issues have to be taken into account but they are in areas where many parents fear to tread.

There are many aspects of harm to young people which we hope the new legislation will at least alleviate. However, there must be an ongoing campaign to bring as much information to young people at the earliest appropriate age for their own safety.

Children and Social Work Bill [HL]

Debate between Lord Watson of Invergowrie and Baroness Butler-Sloss

Wednesday 6th July 2016 Grand Committee

[Baroness Butler-Sloss (CB)]

My Lords, I, too, support the amendments tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Hughes. When I was chancellor of a former polytechnic, which became a very successful university, we had a worrying number of undergraduates who left at the end of the first year, or sometimes the second year. We did not know whether or not they had been in care. There was a very good support service at the university which could have been used to help them if they had been identified as needing extra help. These two amendments are very helpful.

[Lord Watson of Invergowrie (Lab)]

My Lords, we support all these amendments. In speaking to Amendments 88A and 88B, I simply echo the remarks of my noble friend Lady Hughes of Stretford. This would be a very important addition to the Bill. As regards the other amendments, we welcome the commitment to ensure that academies and maintained schools are held to the same standards of educational achievement for relevant children, and the requirement to consult upon, and publish, a local care offer for care leavers. This would allow best practice to be shared throughout the sector and ensure full accountability and informed choices for children and young people.

The post of designated lead for looked-after children already exists in all schools, so the extension to previously looked-after children is welcome, but in reality these duties in a school are often overlaid on top of existing responsibilities. For instance, the duty regarding looked-after children is often added to the SEN co-ordinator’s role or to that of a senior manager. Therefore, the implications could be significant in terms of time allocation for the member of staff concerned.

We also believe that academy trusts should be required to designate a lead person, and that somebody at a senior level should be involved, such as an executive member within the trust. An individual member of staff may be the designated staff member, but he or she should report to someone at executive level to ensure that the executive member assumes ultimate responsibility for the interests of looked-after and previously looked-after children, and that the designated staff member is allocated the requisite time and resources to do his or her job properly.