Environmental Protection (Microbeads) (England) Regulations 2017

Lord Wigley Excerpts

Monday 18th December 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord Wigley (PC)]

My Lords, I intervene briefly to warmly welcome the statement by the Minister. This issue demands urgent attention, and I am glad to see the Government doing this. I have a couple of brief questions. First, with regard to the delay in implementing equivalent steps by the devolved regimes, will he confirm that this is not because of any lack of enthusiasm but is a question of process and that some other steps to this end are being considered by the devolved regimes? Secondly, will he confirm that there is no question of allowing the import of products containing microbeads, particularly from the United States, and that the Government will withstand this with all the means they can?

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords, I am most grateful for the contributions that have been made because they symbolise the fact that when there is an environmental imperative, very little else matters and unity of purpose is important. I am most grateful to the noble Baronesses, Lady Jones of Whitchurch and Lady Bakewell of Hardington Mandeville, for their endorsement of these proposals.

In response to the noble Lord, Lord Wigley, the reason for the slight difference is purely that, I understand, there are hardly any manufacturers of cosmetics in the three other countries of the United Kingdom. Therefore, it will be brought together with everything in July. I certainly do not want to suggest that there is any sense of delay. There is unity of purpose across the United Kingdom. These regulations are about manufacture, sale, import and export. We are going to have a very robust regime in this country. Potentially New Zealand might have the strongest regime—there is a slight argument about that—but we intend to have the strongest ban that we can.

A number of points were made. The noble Baroness, Lady Bakewell, raised the issue of local authorities. I am looking at the interpretation and I will want to look at it fully because there is no intention of leaving any body out of this. I note the references to the City of London, the rest of London, the council of the Isles of Scilly and, where there is no county council, the district council. I am very confident that this would be a shire county or a metropolitan district, but I will clarify that because there is no intention of being lax about any part of the country on this point.

The noble Baroness, Lady Jones of Whitchurch, made a number of points. At this stage we think that there is a distinction between run-off and leave-on products, because leave-on products tend to be removed in other ways and disposed of in bins and other receptacles which we believe lessens their chance of ending up in the marine environment. However, we have asked the Advisory Committee on Hazardous Substances to look at other sources of microplastic, including industrial cleaning products, with regard to their potential to harm the marine environment. As soon as we have had that, we will know more. Our assessments have indicated that industrial cleaning products used and manufactured in the UK contain a small number of microbeads, but I do not want to discount that. We will be asking the advisory committee to look at that thoroughly.

On the question of training and guidance for trading standards officers, which both noble Baronesses raised, it is essential that we ensure that people who will be asked to do this job are well trained. Officials in Defra have worked closely with local authority trading standards bodies to develop a guidance document for enforcement officers to use. This document contains information about likely products and ingredients that we have gathered from cosmetics associations and experienced trading standards officers to help surveillance.

The document also sets out a series of tests which officers may conduct to help them determine whether or not a product contains microbeads. Officials met a large number of trading standards officers who work at borders around the UK, who informed us that they will be able to inspect products for microbeads alongside the safety testing they already do. We have also committed initial funds of over £100,000 to support the potential increased burden on the Ministry of Justice.

The noble Baroness, Lady Jones of Whitchurch, also asked about labelling. These regulations will ban the manufacture, sale, import and export of all products in this category. We are confident that the ban will stop the use of microbeads in personal care products, and therefore that a new law on labelling will not be necessary. However, we will of course continue to consider these matters because, again, we genuinely want to make progress on ensuring that our oceans and seas are in a better condition.

As I and other noble Lords have mentioned, this whole area needs to be dealt with in collaboration internationally, with the EU and other nations. The importance of the environment is consistently discussed at the international fora in which this country participates—whether it is the G7, the G20 or the UN. We have ensured that at recent meetings, especially at the UN Environment Assembly, we were clear on the reasons for our ban and that we support action to improve our oceans. Fortunately, many other countries, including the United States, Canada, Australia, New Zealand and France are already working on similar bans. Although not all are as strong as ours, the majority of them will come into effect in July this year. The EU is currently considering its position, and other countries such as India are looking to make similar legislative changes. Of course, we will make sure that we use future events to get our message across and show leadership in this area.

I sense the importance to your Lordships of the global lead that we surely must take in terms of further plastic pollution and cleaning up our oceans for the next generation. This country has a long tradition of taking action regarding caring for the marine environment. More recently, this legislation has taken 15 months of hard work. I believe that the success on plastic bags is remarkable, with the reduction in the number of plastic bags found on beaches and the marine environment. We have just finished consultation on a potential deposit return scheme, and we are on track to establish more marine protected areas. We are also looking at how we can increase recycling and decrease the reliance on plastics in our everyday lives.

It is clear that there is much more to be done to tackle the issue of marine pollution. It is a problem that we must not and cannot shy away from. Reducing marine litter at the source will be key to beginning the work towards improving ocean health. The action proposed through this legislation shows that the United Kingdom is determined to face the issue of marine litter head-on by reducing the flow of plastic litter into the oceans. For these reasons, I beg to move.

Brexit: Agriculture and Farm Animal Welfare (European Union Committee Report)

Lord Wigley Excerpts

Tuesday 17th October 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord Wigley (PC)]

My Lords, I also congratulate the noble Lord, Lord Vaux of Harrowden, on his polished maiden speech and wish him well in the House. I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Teverson, for introducing this report. I should declare an interest by way of ownership of six acres of farmland—not one of the biggest estates in the land—and as a member of the Farmers Union of Wales.

I want to put on record the very grave misgivings among the agricultural fraternity in Wales concerning Brexit, particularly if it transpires to be—as seems probable—the hardest of hard Brexits. There are many aspects of life in Wales which differ from those of England, but none more stark than in the agricultural sector. Sheep farming is the predominant sector in Wales, with 80% of Welsh farms involved in the sheep industry, and the Welsh sheep flock amounts to 29% of that of the UK.

The proportion of Welsh GVA produced by agriculture is about 0.7%, compared to 0.4% for the UK. It was because circumstances are so very different for agriculture in Wales to that in England that agriculture was fully devolved to the National Assembly. That is one of the compelling reasons why any powers returned from Brussels to the UK which are relevant to farming should be fully transferred to the devolved Governments. It is then a matter of getting an agreed framework in place for discussions between the four Administrations of these islands to ensure that issues relating to the harmonious working of a UK single market can be best resolved.

As we leave the EU, we shall of course leave the CAP. Welsh farmers could face a cash crisis unless there are specific safeguards. These are necessary because Welsh farm income levels are very modest. Between 2012 and 2016, the average annual farm business income of all Welsh farm categories was only £26,520. Welsh agriculture depends heavily on financial subsidies from the EU. Wales currently receives about £274 million a year by way of direct subsidies under the CAP, with a further £555 million coming to Wales between 2014 and 2020 through the Rural Development Programme. In total, 80% of farm income in Wales comes from the EU’s common agricultural policy.

The current level of funding should be guaranteed by the Treasury to the Welsh Government, as was promised time after time by Brexit campaigners during the referendum. These funds should be outside the Barnett block and ring-fenced by the Welsh Government for supporting agricultural. Such guaranteed funding should run for 10 years. It is no use promising that the funding will last only to 2022 when agricultural investment runs on a five to 10 year planning cycle.

Welsh farming, particularly the meat sector, is heavily dependent on EU markets, which take some 35% of all the meat produced in Wales. So the outcome of Brexit is critically important for Welsh farmers. Any changes to the CAP levels of funding or in market access could have catastrophic consequences. The degree of damage will depend on the type of Brexit which the UK Government negotiates.

In this context, an important study was published in August. Undertaken by FAPRI, the Food and Agricultural Policy Research Institute, it was commissioned to undertake the economic modelling work by DEFRA and the devolved Administrations. The conclusions of that work were dramatic.

The study focused on three alternative scenarios. The first considered the impact if the UK succeeded in negotiating tariff-free and quota-free access for UK products into the EU and likewise for EU products into the UK, with the UK maintaining the EU tariff structure to the rest of the world and for there to be a 5% facilitation cost on UK-EU trade. In these circumstances, the study projects a small benefit for the UK beef and dairy sectors and a marginal 1% decrease in sheep prices and output value. We could live with that option.

The second scenario was on the basis of there being negotiated a World Trade Organization default package, including most favoured nation status being granted to imports from the EU to Britain and on UK exports to the EU; for tariff rate quotas to be retained on imports from third countries; for no change in the tariff structure for exports to the rest of the world; and for there to be an 8% facilitation cost on UK-EU trade. This would have a favourable impact of up to 30% on beef and dairy prices, but an adverse impact of 30% on sheep prices. That clearly could be advantageous for some parts of Britain but devastating for large parts of Wales. It would also have a 4% to 5% adverse effect on wheat and barley, which should make England hesitate before supporting that option.

It is, however, the third scenario which should frighten the living daylights out of anyone concerned with agriculture—the hard Brexit option of unilateral trade liberalisation. This would mean zero tariffs on imports into the UK, both from Europe and the rest of the world; it would mean having most favoured nation status for UK exports to the EU; no change in tariff structures for UK exports to the rest of the world; and an 8% facilitation cost on UK-EU trade. This scenario—the black Brexit bombshell, if I can call it that—would cause a 45% drop in beef prices, a 29% drop in sheep prices, a 10% drop in milk and dairy prices, and a 5% to 7% drop in wheat and barley prices.

This month, the Agriculture and Horticulture Development Board published the results of similar modelling which again predict that, for all the extreme Brexit scenario, there would be a drop in all farm incomes of over 50%, with less favoured area livestock farms particularly hard hit.

The Farmers Union of Wales has called on the Government to secure a long-term agreement with the EU to maintain tariff-free access to the EU’s single market for Welsh agricultural products. The FUW has also called for a 10-year transition period. This is something that Brexit campaigners must take on board: the harder the Brexit settlement, the longer the transition period that will be necessary in order to minimise economic chaos.

What all this means is that a hard Brexit will signal the end of Welsh farming as we know it. Any Government which would allow this to happen would be guilty of mind-blowing irresponsibility. If there is to be a hard Brexit, surely there must be a confirmatory referendum in early 2019 so that people have the opportunity to think again. Among those leading the queue for such reconsideration will be the farmers of Wales when they fully appreciate what is about to hit them.

European Union: Environmental Policy

Lord Wigley Excerpts

Monday 12th December 2016 Lords Chamber

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords, I should declare an interest: as Minister for Biosecurity I take these matters very seriously. Our preparations are much advanced. I have been working with the Chief Plant Health Officer and we are in a much better position. Of course we should use the opportunity to see what works in the national interest, and I shall be looking at this very carefully.

[Lord Wigley (PC)]

My Lords, will the Minister confirm that European environmental standards will all be transferred to UK law when the so-called great reform Act comes through; that none of them can then be disposed of without an order going through both this House and the other place; and that therefore we will have an opportunity to stop any unnecessary rollback?

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords, the great repeal Bill will provide an opportunity to ensure that there will be no gaps, to provide certainty for businesses, stakeholders and everyone. It is precisely the case that those standards will be coming back to this country and if there is any requirement for alteration, it would come before Parliament in the normal manner of scrutiny by both Houses.

Milk Production

Lord Wigley Excerpts

Thursday 15th January 2015 Lords Chamber

[Lord De Mauley]

My Lords, to address the short-term problem, my honourable friend George Eustice, the farms Minister, yesterday held a farming resilience summit precisely so that this subject could be a central focus. Noble Lords may also have seen that DairyCo has offered advice and assistance to farmers in cash-flow planning and volatility management. Other actions in hand include investigating whether the seasonal cyclicality of prices lends itself to the use of futures markets to smooth the price curve, and we are putting pressure on the commissioner to accelerate the improvement of country-of-origin labelling.

[Lord Wigley (PC)]

Does the Minister accept that there is a need for long-term stability for the dairy sector to flourish, and that a price below 29 pence a litre at farm gate, which was the average price in November, is not sustainable? Does he accept that action needs to be taken? Does he believe that the steps to which he referred with regard to co-operation with our European partners in dairy matters on the question of labelling is enough to deliver what is needed for that stability?

[Lord De Mauley]

I certainly agree with the first half of what the noble Lord has said. I am not suggesting that the work on labelling is by any means the only tool. That is why, as I have said, we are looking at the use of futures markets, because there is evidence of a seasonal cyclicality of milk prices. At certain times of the year a crunch tends to be worse, and such crunches can be foreseen, so we want to smooth that curve. But crucial is our work on exports, and noble Lords will be interested to know that exports to non-EU markets of dairy products are up by 47% year on year.

Insurance: Flood Risk Areas

Lord Wigley Excerpts

Wednesday 22nd May 2013 Lords Chamber

[Lord De Mauley]

My Lords, my noble friend makes an important point. He should know that the National Planning Policy Framework seeks to ensure that development is located away from flood risk wherever possible.

[Lord Wigley]

My Lords, the Minister will be aware of the considerable number of floods along the Welsh coastline—Dyffryn Clwyd, the Conwy Valley, Ceredigion —over recent years. Some of these locations have had, twice in recent years, a one in 1,000-year event, making insurance virtually impossible. Can he guarantee that when this agreement has come into force after 31 July, or whenever, none of these households will be unable to obtain the necessary insurance cover?

[Lord De Mauley]

My Lords, my heart, and I am sure the hearts of all noble Lords, goes out to those who have suffered from these events. It really is a horrible thing to happen. It has happened to me, so I sympathise with them. Our view is that action taken to reduce flood risk is the best way of keeping insurance available and affordable, which is why we are spending more than £2.3 billion over four years to tackle flooding and, indeed, coastal erosion risks. I have a lot of sympathy with what the noble Lord says.

Environment: Plastic Bags

Lord Wigley Excerpts

Tuesday 14th May 2013 Lords Chamber

[Lord De Mauley]

My Lords, as I just said, we are monitoring the charging scheme in Wales and data from the first year will not be available until the summer. I understand that unintended consequences in the Republic of Ireland included an increase in sales of bin liners because consumers no longer used free carrier bags to line their bins. The production of bin liners has a bigger environmental impact than single-use carrier bags. In addition, following the introduction of the charge in Wales there was an increase in sales of bags for life. As the aim of a charge is to reduce use, it could result in a worse environmental outcome if they are used only once or twice, because they need to be used at least four times to have a lower carbon footprint than single-use carrier bags. We need to consider all the impacts in the round, and we will consider very carefully instituting a charge.

[Lord Wigley]

My Lords, does the Minister accept that the evidence from Wales suggests an indicative reduction in the use of bags of up to 90%, that there is a benefit for good causes from the 5p charge, which provides worthwhile sums, and that there has been a noticeable reduction in the number of bags lodged in hedgerows around Wales? Does this not add up to a very convincing case?

[Lord De Mauley]

My Lords, I acknowledge what the noble Lord says. As I have said, we are watching closely. There is a lot of evidence coming in, and we will make a decision in due course.

Food: Banks

Lord Wigley Excerpts

Tuesday 5th February 2013 Lords Chamber

[Lord De Mauley]

My noble friend asks an apposite question. As I have said, we thoroughly support the work of charities such as FareShare and FoodCycle, which work with the food industry to ensure that surplus food is distributed to people who really need it. Defra Ministers held a round-table meeting with retailers and food charities in July to explore the barriers to food redistribution. They also considered an outline proposal from FareShare and FoodCycle that seeks to make redistribution easier for both charities and retailers. This proposal would build on the partnerships that most major retailers already have with redistribution charities.

[Lord Wigley]

My Lords, does the Minister accept that an increasing number of people who are in work are resorting to food banks? The CAB has identified this as a result of high interest rates combined with low wages and insecure work. In these circumstances, what will the Government do about introducing a living wage?

[Lord De Mauley]

My Lords, the noble Lord is absolutely right that we need to help the poorest in our country. That is why, over the past two years, the Government have provided grants of around £2 billion to help freeze council tax; the fuel duty increase that was due to take effect on 1 January was cancelled and the increase planned for 1 April deferred until 1 September; and we have lifted the personal tax allowance and taken 2 million of the lowest-paid people out of tax altogether. It is, of course, why we have the Healthy Start and school fruit and vegetable schemes. It is also good news that on 23 January we learnt that employment is up by 90,000 and that the rate of job growth last year was the fastest since 1989.

Water: National Grid

Lord Wigley Excerpts

Wednesday 28th March 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

As my noble friend is aware, much has already been done by water companies to improve interconnectivity. My noble friend asked about a plan. We are encouraging water companies to include provision for better interconnectivity in the next price review round, which is due to complete in 2014. This is potentially much more cost-effective than creating a national grid and it will help to address the problem of imbalances in water availability across the country. We need Ofwat to get the incentives right so that water trading is economically attractive for water companies.

[Lord Wigley]

My Lords, I welcome the statement made by the noble Lord a few hours ago in this Chamber, when he indicated that any proposals to secure additional water supplies from Wales would go ahead only with the agreement of the National Assembly as water is a devolved matter. That being so, will he also confirm that there will be a Barnett consequential for the expenditure undertaken as a result of the Bill passed last night that would be relevant to Wales?

Water Industry (Financial Assistance) Bill

Lord Wigley Excerpts

Tuesday 27th March 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Wigley]

My Lords, I will speak briefly. I am sure that many noble Lords will be aware that water can be an inflammable substance in Wales. I realise that the immediate purpose of the Bill is fairly narrow, as the Minister described. Nevertheless, the Long Title states that this is a Bill:

“To make provision for the giving of financial assistance … in connection with the construction of, and the carrying out of works in respect of, water … infrastructure”.

That is a much broader purpose, as the Minister hinted. In the Second Reading debate in the other place, the Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Richard Benyon, stated that,

“the powers in the Bill are appropriately drafted. Although we currently have no plans to use those powers other than to assist South West Water customers and in relation to the Thames tunnel, we heard many calls today … for us to legislate … to invest in new infrastructure to help make the country more resilient to droughts in future”.—[Official Report, Commons, 6/3/12; col. 746.]

Clearly, that is part of the general strategy of the Bill, although it leads through to another piece of legislation, and no doubt we will cover other aspects of that. The wider considerations cannot be ignored.

Before considering these wider aspects, I note that the water rebate being facilitated by the Bill is, as currently envisaged, an England-only benefit. That is fair enough: no doubt the argument is that the National Assembly will handle any such question in Wales. If that is the line taken by the Government, the immediate question arises of whether the National Assembly will get a Barnett-consequential payment that will allow it to consider helping beleaguered Welsh Water ratepayers in similar circumstances.

In December, the Environment Secretary, Caroline Spelman MP, said that one idea that continued to be discussed was piping more water from Wales to England. That was at the launch of the Water for Life White Paper. I am very much aware that the Mayor of London, Mr Boris Johnson, also suggested—in 2010—moving water supplies from Wales and Scotland to areas of shortage in the south and east of England. Apparently he favours taking water from reservoirs in Wales, via the Severn and the Wye, to link to the Thames and the Trent. One has been made very much aware in recent weeks of the problems facing drought areas in southern and eastern England.

As I understand it, people in the parched east and south-east must look for new sources of water supply to meet domestic, agricultural and industrial needs. However, we in Wales had some very difficult experiences over the past half-century with such matters—in particular the manner in which the Tryweryn Valley was drowned and the village of Capel Celyn submerged to provide a source of water for Liverpool. There was immense hostility to the scheme. When Liverpool Corporation pressed the Bill to facilitate the drowning of the valley, every Welsh MP bar one voted against it, but it was passed. To make things worse, the price of water in Wales then became significantly higher than it was in cities like Liverpool and Birmingham that got their water from Wales. At one time, the price was three times higher. That puts into context what is now proposed for south-west England. I have every sympathy for people there because we, too, had these problems.

I raise the issue now to suggest that if there is any likelihood of English water companies looking again towards Wales—and one understands that they may need to because of their circumstances—there should be a firm undertaking from the start that fair recompense should come to Wales for the water abstracted directly or indirectly for such purposes. I will go further and suggest that the UK Minister should now open a dialogue with Welsh government Ministers with a view to establishing an understanding on any such water transfers that will be fair to everyone.

A leading Welsh economist, Professor Dylan Jones-Evans has stated:

“Wales has got the water. The issue now is who owns that resource and whether Wales is getting a fair price for it as if it was selling any other commodity, product or service”.

Of course, Professor Jones-Evans was a Conservative candidate in a recent election to the Welsh National Assembly. The Welsh Environment Minister, Labour AM John Griffiths, has also spoken in similar terms. He stated:

“Our view is that in Wales we have a very important resource in our water, and that it must be recognised as such. In any future negotiations or developments, we would obviously want to get full value for that very important water resource”.

Apparently, Severn Trent Water has set out proposals that will allow water companies to trade water from one region to another. Severn Trent Water operates in Wales, but I ask whether it is in any shape or form answerable to the Welsh public for its policies or activities of that sort.

I have a proposal for the Minister: before this issue becomes polarised and attitudes get antagonistic, the UK Government and Welsh Assembly government Ministers should get together to discuss a financial model that will make it worth while for Welsh authorities, local and national, to be partners in any such developments so that they take a positive attitude towards facilitating solutions that may be of mutual benefit. A modest scheme of payment for water abstracted from Wales could be really beneficial to communities in Wales that need to maximise their resources and very often do not have such resources at hand. This Bill may be modest, but it could foreshadow significant developments, and I appeal for a positive attitude from Her Majesty's Government.

Public Bodies Bill [HL]

Lord Wigley Excerpts

Monday 4th April 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Rowlands]

My Lords, I will speak to my amendment, which would delete Clause 13, and to Amendment 87A, which suggests that parliamentary consent should be added to that of the Secretary of State for powers under the clause. I will preface my remarks by saying that my record shows that I have been a fervent supporter of transferring legislative competence to the Assembly through the procedures that we have had in the past. I refer to the legislative competence orders that were in Part 3 of the Government of Wales Act and to individual framework clauses in Bills that have come before the House in the past two or three years. I supported them because this was an important and useful way in which to transfer legislative competence until the referendum decided that the Welsh Assembly and Government should have full legislative powers. I am not an opponent of such transfers.

However, when I saw Clause 13, I thought that it was a step too far. This House has many times reflected deep concern and uneasiness about sweeping, ill defined powers granted to Ministers. The report of our Regulatory Reform Committee stated that the powers in Clause 13 were “insufficiently limited”. The committee made the same objections that it had made to Clauses 1 to 6, which was that Minsters were given,

“unacceptable discretion to rewrite the statute book, with inadequate parliamentary scrutiny of, and control over, the process”.

There have been many changes to the Bill, but the fundamental issue of the sweeping nature of the powers in it has caused serious concern. Henry VIII looks like a parliamentary democrat when one considers the powers that we are giving to Ministers in the Bill. I still feel extremely uneasy that an Act of Parliament is bestowing these powers on Welsh Ministers. This should be the National Assembly’s responsibility now that it has the power to do so after the referendum; that would have been a better process.

My second point, to which the Minister made no reference even though it is the reason for yet another new clause in the Bill, is that our Regulatory Reform Committee also drew attention to an extraordinary aspect of Clause 13. The committee states:

“The net result of what is proposed here is that Parliament should delegate to Welsh Ministers the power to amend Acts of Parliament in matters as respects which Parliament has not delegated to the NAW the power to amend Acts of Parliament by enacting measures, and all subject to no Parliamentary control at Westminster whatsoever”.

In other words, we were seriously blurring in Clause 13 the division of responsibilities between devolved and non-devolved powers. I accept that, since then, amendments have been made that clearly define the nature of the devolved functions and the powers that Welsh Ministers will have in Wales in relation to this Bill. I welcome that. However, in the Government’s response to this fundamental criticism that they were blurring the division of responsibilities, lo and behold the only two precedents that could be dredged up to justify such a power were the European Communities Act 1972, which everyone recognises is unique to say the least, and a subsection from planning legislation of 1998. I have looked at both and I do not think that they are comparable in any shape or form. Fortunately, it seems that, as a result of the pressures that have been applied and the criticisms that have been made, the clause defining the devolved and non-devolved powers relating to Wales has now been reasonably satisfactorily resolved.

What is remarkable is that here we are, post referendum, with power having been transferred to legislate in Cardiff on this and other issues, yet in a Bill of this House we are writing out in detail the procedures that Welsh Ministers have to go through to justify and consult. In other words, we are writing into Welsh Ministers’ responsibilities the super-affirmative procedures that we are applying to UK Ministers. Putting aside the general merits of the issue, I think that it is quite extraordinary that at this moment in time we are seeking to write into a Bill a remarkable clause that lays out in great detail the responsibilities of Welsh Assembly Ministers to consult. Again, I respectfully suggest that that should be the decision of the Assembly.

The Minister’s reply is that on 8 March we suddenly had an approval of all these proposals by the Assembly. Although the powers in Clause 13 have been evident since last October, it is quite clear that Assembly Members have not endorsed the original clause. That is why I have sought to remove the clause. I accept that since then there have been changes. Obviously the conversations that have gone on between Welsh Ministers and UK Ministers and officials have clarified the position in a number of important respects since I tabled my amendment, but I think that we ought to be wary about offering such powers at this stage to Welsh Assembly Ministers. They should seek them themselves from their own Assembly. Having said that, I accept that at this stage in the proceedings it is going to be difficult to turn back. Miss Jane Davidson, the Environment Minister, has fulfilled that portfolio with vision and commitment. She has now retired but I understand her desire to have these types of powers.

Finally, I hope that, if nothing else, the Minister will accept my Amendment 87A. Changes to these bodies will have consequences across the border. Quite rightly there is a provision that the Secretary of State has to consent to any changes made, just as consent has to be sought from the Assembly Ministers and the National Assembly to any orders that could affect Welsh devolved powers in relation to these bodies. However, in this case, only the Secretary of State’s consent is required. I accept that that consent is necessary on any cross-border issues, but surely both Houses here should approve such changes as well. Just as Assembly Ministers and the National Assembly are expected to confirm their consent to changes that might be made by a UK Government, I honestly believe that we should also insist that both Houses of Parliament should approve any Secretary of State’s consent that could alter and change the role, functions and money of the bodies that are covered in these clauses.

I accept and understand that now, because Clause 13 has been transformed and additional safeguards have been put in place, there is a clear distinction between devolved and non-devolved powers in the Bill, but I press the Minister to agree to Amendment 87A, if nothing else, so that this House and the other House have to approve the consent of the Secretary of State in relation to the clauses.

[Lord Wigley]

My Lords, I pick up some of the points made by the noble Lord, Lord Rowlands, which will no doubt exercise the House again in future because they touch on the lack of symmetry with regard to devolution. The powers in Scotland and Northern Ireland are different from the powers in Wales, even after the referendum that took place on 3 March. One of the arguments in favour of the changes that came through that referendum was transparency: people must be able to see clearly where responsibility lies so that the Government taking the decision can be judged and held to account. As the noble Lord, Lord Rowlands, said, anything that blurs that question undermines the intent of the devolution settlement.

There is also the more general question of the way in which orders are used to effect changes. When one has the capability in democratic fora, such as the National Assembly for Wales, to do things more openly and transparently than when everything is done by order, that should be used. None the less, I take the noble Lord’s point that some concessions and changes have been made to try to meet some of those points as the Bill has progressed.

I believe that Ministers in the National Assembly are broadly content with the provisions and that the Presiding Officer, the noble Lord, Lord Elis-Thomas, is likewise content. I have not tabled any amendments, but two or three issues would benefit from further clarification. First, can the Minister give an assurance that in every instance where matters are devolved, it is the Ministers in Wales who have the full powers with regard to any implementation of the Bill applying to Wales? I believe that that is the case, but I would be grateful if we could have that confirmed from the Dispatch Box.

Secondly, where there are cross-border issues, to which the noble Lord, Lord Rowlands, referred, can we be assured not only that, when there is an initiative in Wales, Welsh Ministers should consult first with their Westminster counterparts, but that, likewise and equally, when Westminster Ministers propose changes that have a cross-border implication, they, too, will consult Welsh Ministers before taking any action? That again concerns symmetry and transparency and ensures that there is harmonious co-operation on such issues.

Thirdly, when Bills or orders before either Chamber in Westminster have an implication for Wales in matters that are devolved, can we have an assurance that consultation will take place much earlier in the process as the Bills or orders proceed through their scrutiny in Parliament? That earlier consideration would be very valuable, as it would have been in the context of S4C, for example, which we have debated under the Bill.

This applies not only to matters that are devolved; there are also matters that are not devolved or not fully devolved where there is specific relevance for Wales. I would imagine that, in the spirit of the co-operation described in the amendments, there will be full consultation on those matters also. I press that any such consultation should take place as early as possible so that there is full engagement and the response to consultation can be built into that process. With those few comments, I look forward to hearing the Minister’s response.