Hong Kong: Human Rights

Lord Wilson of Tillyorn Excerpts

Thursday 4th June 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord Wilson of Tillyorn (CB)]

My Lords, it is not surprising that people in Hong Kong are alarmed about a law on national security being passed in Beijing and its possible effect on human rights. It should have been dealt with ages ago. The Hong Kong Government, under the Basic Law, should have brought in such a law themselves. They tried and failed because of massive public protests. It would still be better if a law such as this came from Hong Kong.

If the Chinese Government insist on passing a national security law in Beijing, I hope that they will listen to the recently published wise advice from Andrew Li, the much-respected former Chief Justice. The three key points are these: any such law should fit with Hong Kong’s common law system; it should not be retrospective; any investigatory powers—meaning from mainland-based organisations—should be subject to Hong Kong law.

This is a hugely difficult time for everyone in Hong Kong. Much of my working life has been spent there. I know that the people of Hong Kong have come through many crises over the years, including the impact of those tragic events in Tiananmen Square 31 years ago today. They have the strength and the ability to do so again.

Hong Kong

Lord Wilson of Tillyorn Excerpts

Thursday 24th October 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Wilson of Tillyorn (CB)]

My Lords, I come at the end of a long list of distinguished speakers. Two things are evident from that. In your Lordships’ House there is great personal experience of Hong Kong—people who have lived there and people who have worked there. There is also a universal affection for Hong Kong and its people, and there is universally deep concern about what has been happening there over the past few weeks. That can surely be no surprise. There were weeks of demonstrations, which started peacefully, with a majority of young people who were clearly well-intentioned and concerned about their own future. They were possibly not well informed about what they might reasonably achieve, but they had good intentions. There was then an increasing amount of violence. That is distressing to see, and not at all the way in which Hong Kong usually acts. It will be totally counterproductive and should not be tolerated.

There has been no occurrence of that degree of violence in Hong Kong that I can think of for some 50 years: in 1967, during the Cultural Revolution, there was serious violence. Then, the Hong Kong police behaved with great steadfastness. At the end of that year, so well had they behaved that they were given the accolade of being called the Royal Hong Kong Police.

There has been a good deal of criticism of the police recently, some of which your Lordships have shared. I noticed that my noble friend Lord Hogan-Howe could see how difficult it is to carry out such operations and probably how mistakes could be made. Such mistakes need to be remedied, but it is worth remembering not only that the police have been under enormous strain week after week, weekend after weekend, but that their families have also been threatened—their children going to school have been threatened—and their position has been extremely difficult.

I think it is clear enough that all of what has been going on is a consequence not just of the so-called extradition Bill, or the Fugitive Offenders Ordinance, as it is properly called. That has been widely misunderstood. I think that a majority of those taking part in the demonstrations sincerely believed that they might be picked up for something that they had said about the Chinese leadership and sent to mainland China for trial Of course, it was for extradition for alleged offences in mainland China, not picking up somebody who had allegedly done something in Hong Kong. The people who were, in a way, rightly concerned were business people going into China who feared that there might be some artificial accusation against them by rivals that would enable there to be a demand for them to be extradited to China. It was an ill-conceived measure; it was in the “too difficult” box, to put it mildly, and was not a sensible idea to put forward.

What it showed was that there was a great pile of dry timber in Hong Kong. The extradition Bill was the light that set that on fire, and it has remained on fire. Noble Lords have referred to a number of the concerns that young people have about housing, job opportunities and their freedoms, and simply what will happen to them in the future and whether they will lose some of the privileges that they have at the moment. Behind a lot of that has been a growing concern and worry about the extent of mainland China’s involvement in Hong Kong. It is not a simple issue. My impression is that what tends to happen is that, when there is a period of confusion in Hong Kong and uncertainty about what is happening, all sorts of different organisations in mainland China send their representatives into Hong Kong to find out what is happening—and to influence what is happening, if they can. That begins to build up into a picture of much greater involvement in Hong Kong than should be the case.

At the time of the signing of the joint declaration, there was a strapline, or a slogan that was often put out from Peking: “gang ren zhi gang”, which I will translate as, “Hong Kong people running Hong Kong”. That seems to me to be an admirable objective. That was what it was said would be the future of Hong Kong after the implementation of the joint declaration and the transfer of sovereignty. But it needs the Hong Kong Government to be effective in what they are doing, the Hong Kong Legislative Council to be effective in backing up or questioning the Hong Kong Government, a mechanism for putting into effect laws and decisions, and for the Hong Kong people to show that they are capable of running Hong Kong. It is now more than 22 years since Hong Kong was returned to Chinese sovereignty. It is now a special part, a unique part—but a part nevertheless, as the noble Lord, Lord Howell, said—of the People’s Republic of China.

There have been a number of references made by noble Lords to the joint declaration. My impression, like that of the noble Lord, Lord Sassoon, is that the only clear-cut case of the breaking of the joint declaration has been the bookseller in Hong Kong, Lee Bo, who was, without doubt, taken out of Hong Kong without legal process; he was kidnapped and taken to China. It would be interesting if the Minister could say whether the British Government think that there have been other straightforward occasions of the breaking of the joint declaration.

It is worth saying that, although it is possible to say, as some Chinese officials have said, that the joint declaration is no longer applicable, that is only the case if you refer to the joint declaration as being just that bit that says that Britain will return to China sovereignty over Hong Kong. The vast bulk of the joint declaration is in its annexes, which lay down in terms the policies of the People’s Republic of China towards Hong Kong for 50 years. That is where what that means is written down precisely and in great detail. Those are Chinese policies laid down there. That remains applicable; it cannot not remain applicable.

I will revert, if I may, to our own role. Since we no longer administer—

[Baroness Berridge (Con)]

I am sorry to intervene. I extended some generosity, in consultation with the Whips, to the other former Governor of Hong Kong. Would the noble Lord now wrap up? Although we are not tight on time, I want to be equal to both noble Lords.

[Lord Wilson of Tillyorn]

I am so sorry: I will wrap up. I just want to say that we cannot and should not try to tell the Hong Kong Government what to do, but we can hope for various things to happen. One would be a commission to look at the whole issue, which the noble Lord, Lord Patten, referred to. We share the position of being the only two survivors of an extinct species: Governors of Hong Kong. There are other things that could help to resolve the present situation. We must all hope that it will be resolved soon, for the good of Hong Kong and all the people who live there.

Hong Kong: Emergency Powers

Lord Wilson of Tillyorn Excerpts

Monday 7th October 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

I totally agree with the noble Baroness. She has great experience and insight on these matters, and I fully associate myself with her sentiments and her remarks. Let me make clear that it has always been the position of the United Kingdom Government, irrespective of political affiliation, that all elements, including the elections that take place for the Chief Executive and the Legislative Council, are provided for in Hong Kong Basic Law. Our view is that the transition to universal suffrage should be applied wholesale. That is enshrined in Hong Kong Basic Law .

[Lord Wilson of Tillyorn (CB)]

My Lords, what has been happening in Hong Kong recently is deeply depressing and very worrying indeed. It is understandable that the Hong Kong Government should wish to deal with people disguising themselves, particularly if they are engaged in violence, but it is not really possible to see how that is going to be an effective move. It is more likely that it will be widely disregarded and therefore seen as a weakness on the side of the Hong Kong Government. That said, and given that these situations are all very worrying and that we must all be concerned about the direction of travel in Hong Kong, does the Minister accept that Her Majesty’s Government would be well advised to be cautious about the way they deal with this publicly, lest they build up a picture—which some people would like to paint—of a lot of this being due to outside interference? That is not something that we would wish to do.

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

My Lords, the Government have shown that diplomacy is the way forward. Ultimately, in any public statement that we make, we consistently make the point that political dialogue is the solution. We are very mindful of the history of Hong Kong, but, speaking as the Minister responsible for human rights, when we see human rights being usurped in those countries with which we have a strategic relationship—and yes, that includes China—we stand up for them, and make those views known.

Hong Kong

Lord Wilson of Tillyorn Excerpts

Tuesday 3rd September 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

I believe that, thus far, the Chinese authorities have shown restraint, which we welcome. Clearly, as I said in my Answer to the original Question, law and order in Hong Kong is of deep concern to us. The noble Lord raises the important issue of future investment in Hong Kong. As we have seen, the eyes of the media and the world are on the situation in Hong Kong; that will not be lost on investors. He makes an important point about political and economic stability in a given territory. I am sure that any business making a decision in respect of Hong Kong will look at that very carefully.

[Lord Wilson of Tillyorn (CB)]

My Lords, what has been happening recently in Hong Kong is very distressing. What started with large demonstrations against the extradition treaty—probably better called the fugitive offenders ordinance—by people who are well-intentioned, but many of whom probably misunderstood what was behind the proposal, has deteriorated into the sort of violence that is not the custom in Hong Kong; it is not the way that things happen there. That is worrying indeed. Does the Minister accept, however, that outside involvement in this is unlikely to be helpful? The key thing is for the Hong Kong Government, without outside pressure, to find ways to take this forward, possibly through a judge-led inquiry into what has gone on, and to establish a dialogue with those who have been protesting. One hopes that among that is the way to bring this situation back to the more normal way in which Hong Kong carries out its affairs.

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

The noble Lord speaks about the situation on the ground with great insight. I agree with him, which is why we have consistently raised the importance of the Hong Kong authorities—particularly the Chief Executive, Carrie Lam—having a constructive dialogue with the people. According to Carrie Lam herself, it is a fact that the original proposal on which these protests were based is dead. I note that it has not yet been formally withdrawn; we are watching that very carefully. On the more general issue, it is important that Hong Kong resolves its issues within the parameters of both the agreement that has been signed and the autonomy it enjoys. On the broader issue of human rights, particularly those raised directly with the United Kingdom, wherever we see human rights usurped and the rights of citizens denied, we will raise our voice as a strong voice for human rights around the world. We have raised our deep concerns with both the Hong Kong and Chinese authorities on this issue.

Hong Kong

Lord Wilson of Tillyorn Excerpts

Tuesday 23rd July 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

We have been dealing directly with the Chinese Government, and I have already commented on the statements made by Carrie Lam. While we welcome the inquiry, we continue to stress that it has to be independent. We do not believe that a review carried out only by the police fulfils that criteria, and we will continue to make that case.

[Lord Wilson of Tillyorn (CB)]

My Lords, there is no doubt that what has been happening recently in Hong Kong is a matter for enormous concern, particularly for those of us in your Lordships’ House who have been involved with Hong Kong and have great affection for it and its people. There have been mistakes and things have gone wrong on all sides. The bill to deal with extradition—the fugitive offenders ordinance—was put through with too great speed. The Hong Kong Government accept that it was not handled well. The peaceful demonstrations have had an increasingly violent element, which is very much to be deplored. What happened in Yuen Long in the New Territories over the weekend, with what seemed to be Triads beating up some of the protesters, was appalling. But would the Minister agree that there are some bright elements in the situation in Hong Kong? One is the resilience of Hong Kong, which reasserts itself. One hopes that it will do so this time. The second is the rule of law, which should be applied without fear or favour; it has been done up to now and must continue.

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

I agree with the noble Lord on his final point; we have seen Hong Kong’s two-systems policy work well. We have been calling for these protests, on all sides, to uphold the rule of law, and we welcomed the recent announcement of the special inquiry by Hong Kong’s Independent Police Complaints Council. It was also heartening to see Carrie Lam call the bill that the noble Lord referred “dead”. It is important that the Chinese authorities work in the best interests of the people of Hong Kong.

Hong Kong: Pro-democracy Activists

Lord Wilson of Tillyorn Excerpts

Wednesday 10th April 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

My Lords, I totally concur with the noble and learned Lord in that respect. That is why we have stood firm on the “one country, two systems” application and will continue to do so. As I said in response to an earlier question, we ensure that any concerns are raised bilaterally with the Hong Kong authorities or directly with the Chinese Government.

[Lord Wilson of Tillyorn (CB)]

My Lords, I agree with my noble friend Lord Pannick and my noble and learned friend Lord Hope that the system in Hong Kong has remained remarkably stable in the courts despite some choppy waters politically over the last few years. That rule of law is enormously important—for the people of Hong Kong and for commercial relations with Hong Kong. It is wise to do our utmost to bolster the rule of law and not rush too quickly into criticising until we know how that has worked out.

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

I totally concur with the noble Lord. That is why I have resisted commenting in any great degree of detail on the case. It is right that we see due process take its course, and we are confident, certainly thus far, that we have seen little demonstration of any contravention of the agreement signed with the Chinese. While concerns remain, as articulated by my right honourable friend the Foreign Secretary, we have no reason to believe that the Chinese authorities will not uphold what the court system decides.

China: Air Defence Identification Zone

Lord Wilson of Tillyorn Excerpts

Thursday 16th January 2014 Lords Chamber

[Lord Wilson of Tillyorn (CB)]

My Lords, it is very useful that the noble Lord, Lord Moynihan, has drawn attention to this issue, including all the complexities that lie behind it and all the dangers that may lie ahead. In a timed debate in your Lordships’ House, it is rather strange to find oneself allocated a longish period of time in which to speak and, with permission, I hope not to use all that time. Perhaps I may use this issue to draw out some rather broader lessons. The noble Lord, Lord Moynihan, referred to all the disputes that have occurred over many years in the East China Sea and the South China Sea, particularly the latter with, for years, Chinese maps drawing a line right round the outer edges of the South China Sea, so creating disputed territory with Vietnam, with the Philippines, with Malaysia and in a very small way with Burma.

A striking point about that long period of dispute is that, despite clashes and indeed some loss of life, there have been no major conflicts. Many years ago, noble Lords may remember that there was a very acute dispute over two islands just off the coast of mainland China: Quemoy or Kinmen and Matsu. They may also remember that, for some 20 years after the crisis had passed, there was a tacit agreement between the two sides that shells, most of which contained propaganda leaflets, would be fired only on odd days of the week, and on even days of the week no shells would be fired and they could carry out their agricultural activities. The key to that was that it was a play, a Peking opera, in which everyone knew the script, and that avoided the danger.

Much more recently we have had the phenomenon of China’s growing military and naval power. I suggest that some of that is going in a helpful direction. I cite the Chinese involvement in the Gulf of Aden, which is a very interesting development in the anti-piracy campaigns off the coast of Somaliland, or China’s involvement with the United Nations peacekeeping operations, or humanitarian assistance. All of that has been very valuable. However, it is difficult to try to incorporate that into the existing world order.

It is very clear, as mentioned by both noble Lords who have spoken, that China is now a very rapidly growing economic power—indeed, far more rapidly growing economically than militarily. As the noble Lord, Lord Moynihan, said, a shifting of the tectonic plates is going on and there is nothing more dangerous in history than a shifting of the plates, when an unsatisfied power or a power that feels that is has lost out over the past hundred years reasserts itself and comes into conflict with the then existing world order. Many of the arrangements in the existing world order, of course, pre-date the time when China re-emerged onto the international stage. It was a time when China was inward looking. It may be that we need to be aware of this, and sometimes make adjustments in these international arrangements, to incorporate the present power of China and encourage it to play a major but, if possible, benevolent role in world affairs. That may require a hard effort.

I mentioned Quemoy and Matsu, and the almost “Peking opera” arrangement whereby you fired on one day but not the next. The danger is that now people will not necessarily know the script. They did then, but if they do not know it now, the dangers are very great. It is therefore important for us to build up the interrelationships we have with China in strategic and military affairs, both diplomatically and between armed forces. Of course, it is the Americans who will play the major part in that, but we, too, can play a role, and I hope we will hear from the Minister that we are playing a role in that area, which will be an important element in how future crises are handled.

For ourselves, we cannot pretend that we are major players. The United States is the major player and will go on being the major player. Equally, we cannot shut our eyes to what is happening and to the potential dangers. What we can do—again, I hope that the Minister can confirm what we are doing—is build up our connections with China. I am thinking not just of commercial connections but of the way in which young people go for education from China to here—and, equally, from here to China. Thus can long-term relationships be built. I am also thinking of the building up of things such as the Chinese legal system, which that country is working hard on and with which we can help in various ways.

In ways such as those, although we may not be one of the major players, we can sensibly help prevent relatively small disputes developing into serious and dangerous conflicts.

United Kingdom and China

Lord Wilson of Tillyorn Excerpts

Thursday 7th November 2013 Lords Chamber

[Lord Wilson of Tillyorn (CB)]

My Lords, China is enormously important. There are always new things happening there, and it is endlessly interesting. I feel very supportive of the view that China is now so much of a world power that we must be involved with China, try to get China involved in all the major issues in the world, encourage China to take part in international organisations, and encourage those organisations sometimes to adjust themselves to take account of China’s joining.

The visit recently by the Chancellor of the Exchequer and the Mayor of London to Peking seems to have put our own bilateral relationship back on some good rails, and that is very encouraging because, without that top-level relationship in good order, it becomes much harder to deal with things at different levels. It is interesting to note that, as the noble Lord, Lord Dobbs, in his splendid and far-ranging speech opening the debate, said, over the past three years, despite some difficulties in our own bilateral political relationship, our exports to China have gone steadily up, and Chinese investment here has gone up too.

As the major things have by and large been dealt with, I should like to concentrate on some practical building blocks in the relationship with China. The first is the importance of learning the language, to which the noble Baroness, Lady Wheatcroft, has just referred. My attention was drawn the other day to an extract from a foreign-language journal in Shanghai. It lamented the fact that foreign businessmen in Shanghai failed to realise that speaking Chinese was essential to promoting trade. The date was January 1924. The point is still worth making, but the good news about our trading relationship with China is the significant number of young people, including from the United Kingdom, who go to China, who deeply immerse themselves, and who speak very good Chinese. I find that very encouraging.

I find, too, very encouraging the fact that the Foreign and Commonwealth Office seems to be reverting to a more traditional approach of believing that regional expertise really does matter and that language matters. I understand that, with the strong support of the Foreign Secretary, there has been a great promotion of learning foreign languages, including Chinese. It would be very interesting if the Minister had those figures because it would inform us.

The noble Lord, Lord Dobbs, referred to the single step that starts any long journey. The single step is at a lower level. University work on China, as he pointed out, particularly at PhD level, is not nearly good enough. The number of students at university level is not good enough. We also need to start at school level. There the picture is mildly encouraging. I should declare an interest. I am president of the Scotland-China Education Network, which tries to promote the teaching of Chinese in Scottish schools under the inspired leadership of Dr. Judith McClure, former head teacher of one of the major girls’ schools in Scotland. There are about 10,000 young people in Scotland learning Chinese at state schools, and there will be more in the private sector.

There are, however, practical problems. This gets back to the visa problem, to which so many noble Lords have referred in different forms. There is the problem of getting people from China to teach Chinese in our schools throughout the UK. Recently, to take an example in Scotland, the Confucius Institute in Strathclyde University in Glasgow wanted to renew the contracts of some of their Chinese teachers who had been there a year. The UK Border Agency has apparently changed its rule so you can have a year, and it cannot be renewed. Some of those teachers were told they could not come back. Late last night I was told that the immediate problem has been resolved, but the underlying problem remains: how do we get people from China to teach Chinese? There is a similar problem at another Confucius Institute, the one at Aberdeen University, where I have an expired interest, having stepped down as chancellor at the end of last year. I hope the Minister will take account of these problems, although they are not his departmental responsibility, and try to bring together the UK Border Agency with those who are involved. Perhaps it would be a good sort of birthday thing to do before, sadly, he steps down from his present post.

The noble Lord, Lord Goodlad, referred to the significance of law in China. There was a very good programme here run by the Great Britain China Centre, of which the noble and learned Lord, Lord Howe, is president, to train Chinese judges. About 80 have been trained in the past decade or more. Funding, which came from the Ministry of Justice, has run out. It is a very good, practical thing we could do. Those people go back to China, their influence spreads, and it is extremely valuable. Perhaps the ODA could take that on.

Finally, there is the matter of Hong Kong, to which the noble Lord, Lord Goodlad, also referred. Our political position there has hugely changed since 1997 but Hong Kong has institutions, a legal set-up and a government structure which make it very user-friendly for people from the United Kingdom. It is a very good jumping-off ground for trade and all involvement with China. I am sure that the Minister, with his own personal background, will feel strongly about that and therefore I can appeal to him to encourage his colleagues to continue to see the importance of Hong Kong in our relationship with China.

Foreign Policy

Lord Wilson of Tillyorn Excerpts

Thursday 1st July 2010 Lords Chamber

[Lord Wilson of Tillyorn]

My Lords, in thanking the noble and learned Lord, Lord Howe of Aberavon, for launching this debate, I should like to concentrate on just one part of that very large canvas that has been sketched out. That one part—quite a large part—is China.

A great deal is said about the enormous development of China over the past few years. Statistics flow out and they are all fantastically impressive. For example, it is responsible for 7 per cent of the world’s GDP; China will very shortly overtake Japan as the second largest economy in the world; huge numbers of PhD students and engineers are turned out every year. All those statistics are significant. Our own relationship with China is significant. Among many other things, as noble Lords will know, China supplies the largest amount of investment in the European Union to the United Kingdom.

All this raises the question of how one copes with this rapid development of China. Our dialogue with China is very encouraging. The sort of things that can be talked about, and the way in which it can be done, would have been impossible 10 or 20 years ago. I think that it is common ground that we should try to encourage China to participate in all the international organisations.

However, one of the issues is the point made by the noble Baroness, Lady Williams. It is that those organisations were set up a long time ago, before China re-emerged on to the world scene. Therefore, if we want China to play a real part, we must accept that those organisations will have to change. You cannot expect a large country such as China, coming from a different background, simply to be absorbed without any effect on the organisations. Perhaps the IMF is a good example. There has been an increase in China’s contribution to it and therefore in its voting power, but it has been only very slight.

Another aspect is our understanding of China. It was encouraging that the Foreign Secretary spoke today about the need to re-emphasise geographical expertise within the foreign service, which has perhaps been downgraded over the past few years. As my noble friend Lord Kerr of Kinlochard said, that expertise, which can be produced in the Foreign Office, is vital to what we are doing.

More broadly, we should have enough people in this country—not just in the foreign service—who have an understanding and experience of China. The same applies in the other direction: there should be enough people from China who have an understanding of us. There are something like 85,000 Chinese students in this country, 60,000 of them at tertiary level. There is a tiny number, it seems, of British students in China—3,000. However, the percentages—that is, the number of Chinese students as a percentage of the Chinese population and the number of our students in China as a percentage of ours—are almost identical. But 3,000 is not enough. We need at a much lower level an understanding and experience of China. I believe that around 500 schools in the UK offer Mandarin. Some make a great effort to do so, because they will just offer it and there will be two or three students. Perhaps I may take an example from Scotland and declare a sort of interest as the honorary president of an organisation called SCEN, the Scotland-China Education Network. I visited the other day Perth High School, a school of about 1,400 pupils. Something like half of those pupils were studying Chinese. They will not get to a high level; they will not go straight into the Foreign Office; they will not immediately become ambassadors—maybe later on they will; but they will have a feel for China and an interest in it, and some will go on to be specialists. I suggest to the Minister that he might encourage his ministerial colleagues to see how much this sort of experience could be transferred elsewhere in the UK, so we have more people studying China and Chinese. In the long term, that will be very much in our interests in terms of the whole way in which we react to China developing as it has been.

Perhaps I may make one last comment—on Hong Kong. The noble and learned Lord, Lord Howe, in the negotiations in which he played such an enormous and significant role about the future of Hong Kong, used to refer to the Ming vase that we were passing on to China. The Ming vase has not been dropped; it is still there. Hong Kong is a success story. Hong Kong in China, but as a very special part of China, is not just a success story, and therefore a cause for great encouragement, but a place of enormous opportunity, of which I hope that people in the UK will continue to take advantage.