Conversion Therapy Prohibition (Sexual Orientation and Gender Identity) Bill [HL]

Lord Young of Norwood Green Excerpts

Friday 9th February 2024 Lords Chamber

[Lord Young of Norwood Green (Lab)]

My Lords, I too congratulate the noble Baroness, Lady Burt, on introducing the debate. I may not agree with her analysis, but it has given us an opportunity to have this debate. The noble Baroness, Lady Meyer, should not worry about repeating what has been said before; it is the divine right of the House of Lords for everybody to do that. Long may it reign. I will try to avoid it, but I am sure that I will fail.

I declare an interest; I am a board member of the lesbian, gay and bisexual alliance. In fact, I am the only straight member on the board, but I sort of try to get over that by saying, “Well, my late brother was gay”, as though that gave me some added credibility. I am not sure whether it does, but it is an interesting organisation.

Why did I get interested in this topic? I was not interested in it at all; in fact, I had no knowledge of it whatever until JK Rowling said: “People who menstruate? Wasn’t there a word for this? What was it? Oh, it was women, wasn’t it?”. The very people she had made multi-millionaires, whose careers she had fostered, then turned on her and accused her of being transphobic. This lies at the heart of some of this debate. If you assert that there is a biological identity of people—male and female—you are liable to be accused of transphobia. Actually, it has not happened to me; the people who get accused are mainly women.

Transgender people are a very small section of our country and community, as the noble Baroness, Lady Buscombe, reminded us. That does not mean to say that they should be ignored or in any way discriminated against, and I hasten to add that I would defend to the death their right not to be discriminated against. But that does not mean to say that we should underestimate or ignore the impact on other groups, if we pass the wrong legislation or do everything that some transgender people want us to do. The groups that concern me are obviously children and women. It is women’s safe spaces that have been put at risk. Time and again this has been done, whether in hospitals, mental hospitals or women’s refuges; there have been real risks.

My noble friend Lady—sorry, I have changed his gender—Lord Cashman said that transgender people do not do any harm. By and large the bulk of them do not do any harm, but some actually do. There was an appalling situation. Unfortunately, the noble Baroness, Lady Bennett of Manor Castle, is not here; she lauded the Scottish legislation. Really? Self-identification at 16? There was the case of the transgender woman, who had already been convicted of sexual crimes, who managed to persuade prison authorities and then raped a woman in the prison. Nicola Sturgeon’s response was, “Well, that’s just one incident”, but there have been other incidents. This is not some marginal issue.

I will tell you something else about this that noble Lords may not be aware of. This is a cult—it really is—and it has invaded government departments and the BBC. It is there. It will be interesting to see, in 10 years’ time, whether people will hold the extreme views that are held today.

I congratulate this Government—not the people who have said that we need this Bill; that is not true at all, in my opinion—on two very important things that they have done. I am glad that the noble Baroness, Lady Falkner, is in her place. One of the most important things they did was to appoint her as chair of the Equality and Human Rights Commission. She had the courage to assert this question of male and female sex. What happened to her? There was a concerted attempt to remove her as chair, which was eventually happily defeated.

The other superb thing that this Government did was the Cass review. The noble Lord, Lord Sandhurst, is not in his place, so I cannot congratulate him, but he wins the prize because he was the first person who mentioned the Cass review—a fundamentally important piece of work that the Government commissioned. What a wonderful woman Hilary Cass is. I looked at the review, and this is her letter to children and young people:

“Children and young people accessing the NHS deserve timely and supportive services, and clinical staff with the training and expertise to meet their healthcare needs”.


That is what we ought to focus on, not some vague idea that there might be people at risk. They are not the challenge that we face.

I do not want to go over my time by too long, but what happened in the Tavistock clinic was a travesty. Significant numbers of people who were dealt with using puberty blockers were on the autistic spectrum and needed very careful handling. We saw a massive increase in young girls who decided that they were suffering from being in the wrong body. If you talk to clinicians who know about this, they will tell you that social media had a huge impact on that. We need to be careful about how we proceed in this area.

The noble Baroness, Lady Hunt, is in her place. I did not expect to hear Julian of Norwich quoted today and I am grateful to her for that—an amazing woman, who said:

“All will be well, and all will be well, and all manner of things will be well”.


We also heard the noble Baroness’s interesting experience. Let me say this: the ability for somebody who is transgender to be here to represent these views is an important part of what we represent. We have moved on from the kind of homophobic situation that was described—

[Baroness Hunt of Bethnal Green (CB)]

My Lords, I welcome the kind remarks of the noble Lord, Lord Young, but I am not trans, although I like accessorising. There are many ways to be a woman. I thank the noble Lord for his comments.

[Lord Young of Norwood Green (Lab)]

I sincerely apologise. I knew I was on dangerous territory when I said that. I should not have referred to it, but the compliment was nevertheless genuine, and I sincerely apologise.

I was grateful for the reminder of Section 28 and what we should learn from that. It is ironic, because Stonewall, which started out opposing it, then became an organisation that was captured by the cult I have just described.

My noble friend Lady Donaghy said we cannot criticise a Bill for not being well drafted; most government Bills are not all that well drafted and that is why we are here—to improve them. However, I finish by saying that we do not need another Bill in this area. There are plenty of things we can do to improve the rights of women and young children, and another Bill like this is not one of them.

Gaza: Humanitarian Situation

Lord Young of Norwood Green Excerpts

Thursday 8th February 2024 Lords Chamber

[Lord Young of Norwood Green (Lab)]

My Lords, we need to remind ourselves again that there are still 136 hostages with no access to the Red Cross. The appalling discovery that UNRWA participated in the Hamas massacre has meant that not only the UK but most countries around the world have suspended aid. That is just a reminder to my noble friend Lord Wood. Aid has been diverted by Hamas, which is using civilians; it does not care about the price that the civilian population pay.

There has to be a two-state solution, following the release of hostages and exchange of prisoners. There was an interesting article recently about a Palestinian prisoner, Marwan Barghouti, who has been involved in very serious crimes. The comment made about whether he can play a part was that he was undoubtedly a terrorist. The comment made in response to that was, “So was Mandela”, and yet he formed a key part of peace negotiations. I would welcome a comment from the Minister in relation to a two-state solution and exchange of prisoners.

Wellbeing of Future Generations Bill [HL]

Lord Young of Norwood Green Excerpts

2nd reading
Friday 25th June 2021 Lords Chamber

[Lord Young of Norwood Green (Lab) [V]]

My Lords, I too congratulate the noble Lord, Lord Bird, who is a man of action. I still buy the Big Issue, and a year ago a seller told me how it had turned his life around. I will support the Bill, even though I have doubts about its practicality. Dickens gave us a warning in Little Dorrit about the Circumlocution Office and its ability to obstruct progress.

I make a plea to the noble Lord to choose his examples more carefully. The old mental asylums were appalling places where people were incarcerated for years in appalling conditions. Community healthcare, first introduced by the Italians, was a major step forward. Of course, we need more of it and probably different varieties, but it was a major step forward.

Student fees, contrary to the noble Lord’s assertion, were first introduced by a Labour Government and saw a massive increase in working-class children deciding to go to university—often the first in their family to do so. When the previous Government decided to raise the fees to nearer £9,000, I was a bit concerned, but in fact the statistics showed us that working-class children continued to go to university. Of course we need to review the policy—apprenticeships now also need to be taken into consideration—but we should not ignore the fact that it was an important increase in social mobility.

I also have to take issue with my noble friend Lord Brooke, who referred to population control. The last person who gave that issue major impact was Malthus, who predicted that the world could never survive if the population increased from the then current number. It has of course increased phenomenally. Even the Chinese Government, with their dreadful means of trying to achieve population control, have realised that that is not the right way forward. However, as the noble Baroness, Lady Greengross, reminded us, there really is a need to remedy the intergenerational compact. Is maintaining the triple lock really fair when we need to be spending more on the younger generation?

I might not go as far as the noble Lord, Lord Moynihan, because I think there are aspects of the Bill that are worth looking at. I remind people that the Environment Bill, even though the noble Lord, Lord Lilley, is very sceptical, is an attempt to look forward, provided that we do not set ridiculous targets—some were unfortunately posed in the recent debate on the Environment Bill—and provided that we base our approach on evidence, reckoning that this generation also has to be able to afford advances in the environment.

So we should give further time to the Bill from the noble Lord, Lord Bird. Whether or not it proves to be practical, it is worth the effort, for the reasons that a number of noble Lords have given. In these circumstances, I will be supporting it.

Ministerial and other Maternity Allowances Bill

Lord Young of Norwood Green Excerpts

2nd reading & 2nd reading (Hansard) & 2nd reading (Hansard): House of Lords
Monday 22nd February 2021 Lords Chamber

[Lord Young of Norwood Green (Lab) [V]]

My Lords, it is fascinating how such a small Bill has demonstrated the ability of the House of Lords to rise to the occasion and scrutinise every word and line. I welcome the Minister’s assurance that he was listening carefully to the debate. His recent letter gave some reassurance, but not enough. It did not deal with what most of the speakers today regard as a misinterpretation of the guidance.

The noble Baroness, Lady Noakes, started this debate with a bang. She used a colloquial term, “garbage”, to describe the failure of the Bill to recognise the role of women in motherhood, and she was right. As the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, reminded the House, we are privileged to have this debate in a non-toxic atmosphere, without being accused of transphobia. That would be ironic because, as he and many other noble Lords said, most of us have spent our adult lives fighting against homophobia, racism, anti-Semitism and Section 28. We do not need to be taught lessons on tolerance and being anti-discriminatory. No wonder there are mixed messages from the Government. The gender equality office takes advice from an organisation called Gendered Intelligence and carries its logo on its letterhead.

A number of noble Lords were right when they said that the Bill is less than perfect. In her moving contribution, the noble Baroness, Lady Grey-Thompson, demonstrated what it was like to experience discrimination; we felt for her. My noble friend Lord Winston showed how women struggle to achieve motherhood. The noble Lord, Lord Pannick, took the House through the legal minefield to arrive at the conclusion of women in the role of motherhood. As I have said, the Bill is too narrow, and I hope that the Minister will give an assurance that the Government will look at the wider issues.

We do not normally vote on regret Motions in this House, and I think the noble Baroness, Lady Noakes, indicated that a vote was not her intention. This is helpful, because it gives the Minister the opportunity to consider the overwhelming feelings of this House. The noble Lord, Lord Lucas, the noble Baronesses, Lady Fox and Lady Hoey, and a whole range of speakers from all the Benches demonstrated their support for the amendments. I know the Minister is in a listening mode; he has agreed to a further meeting with Peers, which I hope will enable him to reconsider his response to the amendment in Committee.

The noble Baroness, Lady Brinton, was wrong, I feel, when she said that if we used the word “women,” it would discriminate against trans men, as was demonstrated by the noble Lord, Lord Pannick. It is ironic that the recent decision by the Office for National Statistics to cave in to the demands to remove sex from the forthcoming census, and allow gender identification instead, will actually work against ensuring that services for transgender people will be provided.

I end my contribution by thanking the House for having this debate in a rational logical way, where Members did not worry about which party they would normally, if you like, support but looked at the issue carefully and rationally. The overwhelming majority of people who contributed to this debate saw the need for amendments. I hope that, in making his response, the Minister will recognise this strength of feeling.

EU-UK Trade and Cooperation Agreement

Lord Young of Norwood Green Excerpts

Friday 8th January 2021 Lords Chamber

[Lord Young of Norwood Green (Lab) [V]]

My Lords, I declare my interest as an apprenticeship ambassador. Like many of my colleagues I voted remain but, as George Brown once said, “democracy has democked”. I, like many noble Lords, prefer to focus on how we put flesh on the bones of what I would describe as a framework agreement.

The noble Lord, Lord Curry, referred to the importance of European vets in our export/import trade. I ask the Minister to recognise the importance of training our own vets. It is a profession which, unlike nursing and teaching, does not have a vocational route. Veterinary apprenticeships would offer a skilled and rewarding career to young people. I would welcome the opportunity to meet the Minister to discuss this.

The current pandemic crisis has shown us the importance of carers and of ensuring that the Immigration Rules recognise their important contribution to care in this country. We also need to enhance the training and status of carers if we are to fill current vacancies and meet what I can only describe as an ever-expanding need, given the demographics of our population.

I do not regret saying goodbye to the common agricultural policy, which I do not believe contributed to a sustainable environment. I trust that the new subsidy arrangements will make a positive contribution in that direction. The noble Viscount, Lord Waverley, outlined very well the importance of a strategy to develop this framework agreement to ensure that we maximise our opportunities, and discussed the importance of SMEs. I look forward to the Minister giving us the opportunity to debate this future strategy.

Finance Bill

Lord Young of Norwood Green Excerpts

2nd reading & Committee negatived & 3rd reading & 2nd reading (Hansard) & 2nd reading (Hansard): House of Lords & 3rd reading (Hansard) & 3rd reading (Hansard): House of Lords & Committee negatived (Hansard) & Committee negatived (Hansard): House of Lords
Friday 17th July 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord Young of Norwood Green (Lab)]

My Lords, I declare an interest as an apprenticeship ambassador. I came here today for the first time since lockdown—driving my electric car—and I have not been here because my wife has been shielding.

I echo the concerns expressed by my noble friend Lord Livermore when he opened the debate from our Front Bench, but I will focus my remarks mainly on apprenticeships. Before I do, I have to agree with my noble friend, my namesake, the noble Lord, Lord Young of Cookham, who unfortunately is not in his place. I do not have a degree in economics, unlike him, who has two—not even an O-level, come to think of it. However, he was right when he said that the Government need perhaps to challenge some of their manifesto policies. One that he did not refer to, the triple lock for pensioners, ought to be looked at in the current circumstances, and I would welcome the Minister’s comment on that.

I welcome the Government’s intention as regards helping young people, who will be hardest hit by this crisis. Who knows whether the Government have it all right or wrong? As a number of speakers have said, these are difficult, challenging and unpredictable times. However, they are right to focus on younger people. As they said, 700,000 will leave education this year, and the worst thing that could happen is for them to become institutionally unemployed, if you like, when they should be in work, training or education.

So we are going to face a challenge. There are thousands of furloughed apprentices who, unfortunately, are likely to lose their jobs, so anything that the Government do to ensure their future employment is welcome. I agree with those who have talked about SMEs, the growth companies that are likely to provide many of the opportunities for young people—and not just young people, of course, but those who are well over 25 who have been made redundant for the first time.

In the brief time that I have, I want to focus a bit on the apprenticeship levy, which is due for reform. It needed it. The number of apprenticeship starts before the crisis was actually down on what it had been a few years ago, which is worrying. Then there is the future of training providers, which are an essential part of that scheme. Many of them are, unfortunately, not going to be in business.

One area that I think the Government should be concerned about is nursing apprenticeships. They are a vital part of the Government’s policy of trying to recruit 50,000 more nurses, but they are finding difficulties there. They ought to be looking at the best practice in that area.

I close by echoing what the noble Lord, Lord Cormack, said about the importance of sustaining heritage skills and zero rating on restoration work, and with the point made by the noble Baroness, Lady Gardner of Parkes, about the importance of social housing.

EU Exit: End of Transition Period

Lord Young of Norwood Green Excerpts

Wednesday 15th July 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord True]

My Lords, the noble Earl goes into areas that are subject to negotiation. I take note of the points he makes, but this Government are established by their action on citizen rights, and we are aware of the impact on individuals of the new circumstances.

[Lord Young of Norwood Green (Lab) [V]]

My Lords, I declare an interest as a member of the EU Environment Sub-Committee. We have recently had a number of meetings with Northern Ireland stakeholders, and I am going to refer to a letter we received recently from the Northern Ireland Assembly, raising a number of concerns. I will be brief, but if the Minister cannot deal with all of them, I would appreciate a response in writing.

On EU approval of ports and airports as border control posts, the committee is aware of the need for ports and airports to submit detailed applications to the EU in order to be designated as border control posts. These are needed to check goods arriving from the GB’s jurisdiction. So, the worry is the amount of time that is going to take and whether the Government feel confident about that being dealt with. Designation of goods at risk is another concern, but I am going to focus on the volume of work to be carried out by departments, committees and the Assembly. The committee has been briefed by the Minister of Agriculture, Environment and Rural Affairs and his officials on the volume of work required to implement the protocol by the end of the transition period. The department has shared information on what it considers necessary to deliver a minimum viable product by 31 December. Much of that MVP will require legislation being made in the Northern Ireland Assembly alongside UK government departments. Can the Minister be confident there is enough time for this to be done by 31 December, that the lines of communication with the stakeholders in Northern Ireland are open and ready for action, and that the document due later this month will deal with many of these issues?

[Lord True]

My Lords, the Government have their eye very much on this ball, and we are confident we will reach a place where we can implement the protocol in a pragmatic and proportionate way, while protecting Northern Ireland’s place in the United Kingdom.

House of Lords: Relocation

Lord Young of Norwood Green Excerpts

Tuesday 14th July 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord Young of Norwood Green (Lab) [V]]

My Lords, to press the Minister further, he tells us that it is a decision for Parliament—so all well and good—but what will the consultative process be? Can he give an absolute guarantee, despite the fact that, as he said, we live in challenging times, this will ultimately be a decision for Parliament?

[Lord True]

My Lords, this great House is part of a legislature, and in any consideration of its future the exigencies of parliamentary practice and procedure will always have to be considered. The Government will, of course, give careful consideration to ensuring that our Parliament continues to operate effectively.