Legislation against Female Genital Mutilation

Debate between Lucy Frazer and Wera Hobhouse

Monday 11th February 2019 Commons Chamber

[Wera Hobhouse (Bath) (LD)]

(Urgent Question): To ask the Minister for Women and Equalities if the Government will introduce further legislation to protect vulnerable young girls against female genital mutilation.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Justice (Lucy Frazer)]

I am grateful for the opportunity to address the House on this important matter. Female genital mutilation has no place in our society. It is an extremely painful and harmful practice that blights the lives of many girls and women. The Government have taken the lead in tackling this barbaric crime. We strengthened the law in 2015 to introduce FGM protection orders and help prevent this appalling crime, and nearly 300 of these orders have now been made. Lord Berkeley’s Bill, supported by my hon. Friend the Member for Richmond Park (Zac Goldsmith), would improve the powers of the courts to protect children, and it is disappointing it was objected to on Friday. I am pleased to say, however, that we are working to bring it back in Government time.

[Wera Hobhouse]

I thank the Minister for her response and I welcome the Government’s commitment on this issue.

We need greater protection for girls at risk of female genital mutilation. The statistics clearly prove that female genital mutilation is on the rise, yet successful instances of protection orders being obtained are as rare as ever, and only four cases have ever been prosecuted. Can the Minister update us on the implementation of the legislation?

The successful prosecution 10 days ago of a mother who had inflicted this practice on her young daughter illustrates the flaw with current legislation: prosecutions only take place after the crime has been committed, and even then rarely. Further protections are needed to ensure that young girls do not have to go through the brutal, life-changing and sometimes life-threatening trauma of female genital mutilation. Can the Minister assure the House that the Government are willing to explore all legislative options, including amending the Children Act 1989, to ensure that young girls do not stay in a home where they are at risk of female genital mutilation?

We have an issue with serial objectors to private Members’ Bills. Mr. Speaker, you will be aware that my private Member’s Bill on upskirting met the same fate last year. Since the failure of Lord Berkeley’s private Member’s Bill on female genital mutilation, seven Ministers and the Conservative Chief Whip have come out in support of the proposed legislation. Can the Minster explain how the Government plan to deal with those of their own Back Benchers who serially object to private Members’ Bills that the Government seem to support?

In 2016, the Procedure Committee made recommendations for improving the process of private Members’ Bills that would prevent this type of situation from arising. Given the outcry caused by last Friday’s objection, will the Government commit to reviewing these recommendations?

[Lucy Frazer]

The hon. Lady, who I was pleased to work with on her private Member’s Bill on upskirting, raises some very important issues. She is right that we need to protect these vulnerable women, and I am pleased to say that, as she said, we have recently had a successful prosecution in this area.

Since 2015, the Government have introduced a number of measures to protect women and girls from female genital mutilation. We have created several offences, including failing to protect a girl from FGM. We have introduced civil protection orders, and there is a mandatory duty to report known cases involving under-18s. As I mentioned at the beginning, the Government will present a Bill in Government time.

As for the broader question of private Members’ Bills, the hon. Lady will know that many have passed through the House successfully, including important measures involving my own Department relating to emergency workers, to mobile phone technology, and—last Friday—to Finn’s law.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Lucy Frazer and Wera Hobhouse

Tuesday 18th December 2018 Commons Chamber

[Lucy Frazer]

The hon. Lady makes an important point about ensuring that we have support for those who are most vulnerable, but I would like to make two points on welfare benefits, which she has highlighted. First, the most important outcome for benefit claimants is that the decisions on their claims should be right first time. This avoids the need to go to court at all, and my Department is working closely with the Department for Work and Pensions to ensure efficient decision making. I have met the Minister twice to ensure that we get those decisions right first time. Secondly, while decisions on welfare claims significantly impact the lives of often vulnerable people, the claims are often not complicated. We are making changes to the tribunal system to ensure that those cases are handled simply, effectively and more quickly.

[Wera Hobhouse (Bath) (LD)]

20. My constitu- ency has been rated by the Law Society as a legal aid desert. In all of Somerset, there is only one firm that is authorised to provide legal aid on housing. What specific advice can the Minister give to my constituents on that?

[Lucy Frazer]

As I have recognised, there are areas of the country that suffer. The Legal Aid Agency looks at those areas, and re-procurement tender exercises are going out in seven of them.

Voyeurism (Offences) (No. 2) Bill (Third sitting)

Debate between Lucy Frazer and Wera Hobhouse

Committee Debate: 3rd sitting: House of Commons
Thursday 12th July 2018 Public Bill Committees

[Lucy Frazer]

I was going to come on to those issues. Does the hon. Lady mind if I deal with them in a moment? I will deal with how motivation will be proven in a moment, but I will just finish the point about the breadth of the provisions.

A number of criticisms have been made; I have mentioned the one about journalists, but there are others. It has been said that the Bill will not catch those who carry out this activity for a laugh, but if the person knows that the laugh is for the purpose of humiliating the other person, they will be caught. As Assistant Commissioner Martin Hewitt said on Tuesday, it is hard to imagine any other reason for which someone would take an upskirt photo that could not be prosecuted under the new offences, as drafted. As Ryan Whelan said:

“There is no requirement that the prohibited motive be the only motive”.

The hon. Lady also referred to the Crown Prosecution Service, but it is important to point out that the CPS stated:

“We anticipate that most offending will fall comfortably within these categories.”

[Wera Hobhouse (Bath) (LD)]

rose—

[Lucy Frazer]

I will deal with the hon. Lady’s point in a moment, after I have dealt with the one about proving sexual gratification.

Assistant Commissioner Hewitt acknowledged that sexual gratification already has to be proved under existing legislation—the Sexual Offences Act 2003—and that it is well understood by the police, prosecutors and the judiciary. He said that motivation can be assessed by interviewing the offender and through digital evidence, such as the website an image is uploaded to, and that it is then for the magistrate or the jury to decide whether there is a sexual purpose.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lucy Frazer]

I am happy to do so. Obviously, each case will depend on its own facts, but one can imagine a circumstance in which a journalist is taking photographs for money and that is his intention. However, he sells a photograph—he has taken it with the intention of selling it on—to a pornographic website on the internet. It would be difficult to suggest that that photo was being put up for any purpose other than for other people’s sexual gratification.

[Wera Hobhouse]

I would like to come back to the issue of having a laugh. I think we all intend the Bill to be victim-centred, but could there not be an instance where people were having a laugh for bonding reasons and there was no direct connection with the victim? People could share an image of someone they did not know and have a laugh about it because it was a fun image, but the victim would not be involved, so we would not be able to prove that it was done for the humiliation of that particular person.

[Lucy Frazer]

I refer back to the evidence of both the Assistant Commissioner and the CPS. The Assistant Commissioner was clear that he could not imagine a circumstance other than the two purposes that are set out. If people take a picture that they think is funny, but the obvious reason that it is funny is that they are humiliating someone or laughing at the humiliation, it does not really matter whether the victim knows about that humiliation. The person is taking the picture because it is humiliating and people laugh at the picture because it is humiliating.

Voyeurism (Offences) (No. 2) Bill

Debate between Lucy Frazer and Wera Hobhouse

Second reading committee: House of Commons
Monday 2nd July 2018 General Committees

[Lucy Frazer]

With the leave of the Committee, I will answer a number of points that have been raised. First, the hon. Member for Bolton South East rightly mentioned some appropriate examples where there is a gap in the law. She mentioned that Scotland had acted more quickly. We must all remember that Scotland has different laws from us. The offence of outraging public decency, which has been available to some victims and under which some people have been successfully prosecuted here, is much narrower in Scotland so the gap was therefore significantly wider when they legislated.

The hon. Lady also suggested that there had been some delay in acting on our part. I am grateful for the intervention made by my hon. Friend the Member for Cheltenham, but I also draw the hon. Lady’s attention to the fact that the previous Lord Chancellor wrote to the Home Office and the Attorney General when these issues were raised. As a result, the Home Office has been working with the College of Policing to develop police guidance on existing powers, including those under the outraging public decency offence, to tackle some cases of upskirting. The Attorney General has also spoken with the Director of Public Prosecutions and the Crown Prosecution Service, making it clear that all cases involving upskirting need to be considered carefully.

The hon. Lady also asked about the two limbs. Charging decisions are matters for the CPS, which is very used to looking at the evidence to see what charge is most appropriate in the circumstances of the offence; the CPS will do the same here.

We had excellent speeches from my hon. Friend the Member for Cheltenham, who brought his experience of criminal law to identify the right balance on the decision about the sex offenders register, and from my hon. Friend the Member for Faversham and Mid Kent, who bravely described her experience when she was much younger.

[Wera Hobhouse]

We want the Act to be a deterrent, so that these vile practices are eradicated from our society. For that to happen, we just need some successful prosecutions. I think the debate is about how we can ensure that prosecutions are as tight and successful as possible. Then it will act as a deterrent and hopefully very few people will even go that way.

[Lucy Frazer]

The hon. Lady makes an important point. In fact, her campaign and that of Gina Martin have done a significant amount to ensure that this offence, and now its potential illegality, has been brought to the attention of individuals and that they know about it. Often it is the fear of prosecution rather than prosecution itself that protects potential victims of crime.

Before I turn to the wider issues raised in the debate, I will touch on some points that have been made by various Members about the remit and ambit of the Bill. We have thought very hard about how the Bill should be put together, what the motivation should be, and when people should go on the sex offenders register. Some Members thought that motive should disappear, because it is the act and the victims we should focus on, not the perpetrator. It has been suggested to me that we should not need to prove motive, but reasonable justification. The concern with that is that a general principle of our law, particularly our criminal law, is that someone is innocent until proven guilty. To suggest that the prosecution should not have to prove motive, only reasonable justification, would reverse the burden of proof, putting it on the defendant, who is meant to be innocent until proved by the prosecution to be guilty.

In our system of law, the prosecution has to prove every element of the offence, and we say that should remain the case for this offence, too. The offence is criminal and serious, and the punishment we are proposing is serious. It is two years, with the requirement that in some circumstances people will go on the sex offenders register. We think it is appropriate in these circumstances that, as with other offences under criminal law, motivation is identified and proved.

Some Members suggested we should take a wider role in relation to the sex offenders register. We are concerned that we should strike the right balance between protecting victims and, where there are young offenders, protecting offenders. We need to strike a balance in terms of stigmatising them and putting them on the sex offenders register. They might need to be identified to the police as potential criminals for future sexual offences. We should not just expand the sex offenders register. Ultimately, if there were too many people on it, that would make it meaningless.

Upskirting

Debate between Lucy Frazer and Wera Hobhouse

Monday 18th June 2018 Commons Chamber

[Wera Hobhouse (Bath) (LD)]

(Urgent Question): To ask the Secretary of State for Justice if he will make a statement on the Government plan to legislate on making upskirting a specific sexual offence.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Justice (Lucy Frazer)]

I am very pleased to have this opportunity to respond to the urgent question asked by the hon. Member for Bath (Wera Hobhouse) because she and Gina Martin have campaigned tirelessly for upskirting to become a criminal offence. I am delighted to have met both of them on a number of occasions to discuss how we can progress this important legislation, and to have worked with them to support the hon. Lady’s private Member’s Bill—the Voyeurism (Offences) Bill. I welcome Gina Martin to the House today. We will continue to build on their efforts to ensure that this activity becomes a criminal offence because upskirting is an invasion of privacy, and a humiliating and distressing experience. The Lord Chancellor and I were disappointed when the private Member’s Bill did not make progress on Friday.

Although there are existing offences that can be used to punish upskirting in some circumstances, there is a gap in the law. The offences of outraging public decency or voyeurism may be used to capture upskirting. However, the public order offence is limited, as the offence needs to take place in a public place and two people need to be present. Conversely, the voyeurism offence needs to be a private act and must take place in a place where one would expect privacy. There may be activities, such as photographs taken in schools, that are not caught by either provision. This law will close that loophole, and ensure there is no doubt that this activity is criminal and will not be tolerated. For the most serious sexual offences, we will ensure that the offender is also placed on the sex offenders register.

Upskirting is an invasion of privacy that leaves victims feeling humiliated, so we will bring legislation before the House in Government time to ensure that this practice becomes an offence. We will introduce the Bill in the House of Commons on Thursday, with a Second Reading before the recess. The leadership of the hon. Member for Bath and the outstanding campaign of Gina Martin have shown how it is possible for individuals to make a difference. I am looking forward to working with colleagues from across the House to progress this matter and make upskirting an offence.

[Wera Hobhouse]

I thank the Minister for her response and for the fantastic teamwork on this issue so far. Does she share my appreciation of the Prime Minister saying on “The Andrew Marr Show” yesterday that the practice of upskirting is “invasive”, “degrading” and “offensive”, and that she will take the Bill that was blocked and put it through in Government time? Will the Minister join me in congratulating Gina Martin and her lawyer, Ryan Whelan, on their fantastic work in bringing the issue to the point we have reached today?

My Bill remains on the books and will be reached again on Friday 6 July. Will the Minister provide me with a full timetable of the Government’s planned programme for their proposed Bill? The Bill must, of course, travel through the Commons and the Lords to become law. If the Government do not introduce the legislation until the end of July, the changes will not be in place soon enough for the summer and further potential victims will be left vulnerable to this vile practice.

It is a shame that we have to be here today because of the objection of the hon. Member for Christchurch (Sir Christopher Chope) to the Bill on Friday. The private Member’s Bill system must be modernised, but that is a matter for a different day. The Government must bring about this important change to the law, making upskirting a specific offence as soon as possible. Will they ensure that the Bill has the full support of all their Members?

[Lucy Frazer]

I thank the hon. Lady for her comments and I agree with the Prime Minister that upskirting should be an offence and should be prosecuted; having spoken to Gina, I understand the humiliation it causes. Our priority is that it should become an offence as soon as possible. We will introduce the Bill on Thursday. I understand that it has considerable support across the House, and I welcome that cross-party support.