Fixed Odds Betting Terminals (Lancashire)
Debate between Philip Davies and Graham P JonesWestminster Hall is an alternative Chamber for MPs to hold debates, named after the adjoining Westminster Hall.
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Graham Jones
I appreciate the hon. Gentleman’s comments. We have to look at all the evidence, as well as adopting the precautionary principle. We also have to take into account all the other surveys that contrast with that figure and show that these machines are highly addictive. The gambling prevalence survey shows that and, as the hon. Gentleman well knows, it was ended by his Government; the last one was done in 2010, so the lack of information is partly down to the Government. I know that Government Members signed early-day motion 1030 last year, complaining about the Government’s withdrawal of the survey, which would have provided an evidential base. It is important that we look at all the evidence and at how we arrive at the evidence, as well as using intelligence. We have to look forward, not just backwards.
I return to my story about the gambling addict covered in the Lancashire Telegraph. He revealed how he squanders hundreds of pounds in benefits on virtual roulette machines. The paper reported:
“Nearly every penny of Michael Waring’s benefits—a total of £845 a month—is lost at betting shops.”
Mr Waring said:
“When the machines came out I didn’t even know what roulette was. After three months playing them I was hooked. I took my wages into the bookies. I was convinced I could win and put all my money into a machine. I lost. When I left, the fresh air hit me and my guts were wrenching.”
He resorted to attacking a FOBT during a spree in which he again lost all his money after several trips to a cash machine. He said:
“I punched the machine several times, threw it onto the floor and left.”
My other local newspaper, the Accrington Observer, has also covered the issue of FOBTs and was concerned at the £51 million staked in 2013 on the 48 FOBT machines in Hyndburn. That is almost £l million a machine, which is a considerable amount.
I am not anti-gambling. I occasionally bet on horses and football. There is an element of judgment to such gambling. Odds rise and fall, and there is a significant period between the placing of such a bet and the conclusion of the event. FOBTs, however, are not so much gambling as gaming. As the name implies, there are fixed odds and an algorithm in the game designed to ensure that the player loses. The laws in the UK are weak. When Newham council defended its decision to oppose the opening of a Paddy Power bookmakers on the basis that FOBTs are gaming and not gambling, and so require a separate licence, the judge found with the bookmaker. That is wrong and my right hon. Friend the Leader of the Opposition is right to call for a separate use class.
The Gambling Act 2005, which legitimised FOBTs, has three objectives: gambling must be fair and open, it must not be associated with crime or disorder and it must not harm young or vulnerable people. It is clear that FOBTs are in breach of all three. The speed of play is more than five times faster than in a casino, so players will lose their cash much quicker than if they were playing live roulette. FOBTs also increase the accessibility of hard gambling, at up to £100 a spin, to a demographic that cannot afford to play casino games.
Last year, the Campaign for Fairer Gambling commissioned 2CV to poll more than 500 betting shop customers. It found that the average bet per spin was £17, and the poorest and those unemployed were gambling £19 a spin. It also found that the average amount of cash going into the machines was £55, and one in five was putting in more than £100 a time. That poll was taken in Newham, one of the most economically deprived boroughs in London, and provides an insight into why bookmakers are targeting the poorest areas. The results of that survey are not dissimilar to those that would be found in Lancashire, particularly the poorer parts of the county. There are 48 FOBTs in Hyndburn, but in the affluent Ribble valley—an area with twice the average income and many times more wealthy people—there are just 18. In Blackburn, there are 73 FOBTs, while in affluent Wyre there are just 29. There are 157 FOBTs in Blackpool.
As a demographic, poorer people are more likely to start gambling than any other, but they are the demographic that can least afford to lose, and the bookmakers aggressively market the most addictive gambling product to them. Customers will often go into betting shops in Lancashire to bet on racing or sports, only to be offered £20 free credit or the opportunity to participate in a tournament on the FOBTs, designed to get them hooked. 2CV’s polling found that nearly nine out of 10 FOBT users described the machines as addictive, more than two thirds had chased their losses, more than three quarters had spent more than they had planned to and 62% had gambled until all their money was gone.
That illustrates a problem with this particular gambling product, and empirical evidence based on the two most recent British gambling prevalence surveys shows that FOBTs are the most addictive form of gambling. Secondary research based on the 2007 British gambling prevalence survey found FOBTs to have a stronger association with problem gambling than any other gambling activity. Professor Jim Orford’s research, based on the 2010 British gambling prevalence survey, found that nearly a quarter of the profits from FOBTs came from people with gambling problems—and that stretches to 40% if at-risk gamblers are included.
The Government want to wait for research commissioned by the Responsible Gambling Trust before they restrict FOBTs, but NatCen, which has been commissioned to carry out the research, has said that the data alone will not provide conclusions that are an adequate basis for policy. The data will tell us what but not why, and it is the why that the Government are interested in.
Although there is enough research to justify a precautionary reduction in the maximum stake on the machines, the research that the Government are waiting for will tell them nothing about player behaviour. That raises questions about why the bookmakers did not give NatCen access to their premises when it was carrying out observational research into gaming machines from 2011 until last year or why the bookmakers have refused to donate a live terminal, with live data, to Cambridge university for research into player interaction.
It is not just addiction that is caused by FOBTs. Landman Economics analysed the impact of FOBTs, and concluded, because the machines were a non-labour-intensive form of consumer spending, that more jobs would be created in the wider economy if the money spent on them was spent elsewhere. Based on historical growth, losses on FOBTs in Hyndburn are predicted by Landman Economics to reach £4 million by 2023, putting 280 jobs at risk. Staff face dangerous working conditions with shifts to single staffing and threats of violence. The Guardian reported:
“According to an internal memo seen by Guardian Money, William Hill instructs staff not to contact the police when customers not already known to staff damage the machines…‘to reduce the number of reports to police’.”
One staff member in my constituency contacted me worried for her safety in an industry that employs a considerable number of untrained female staff in isolation. She told me that every night she had, on her own, to carry thousands of pounds in cash to the bank. She was gravely concerned about her safety. Betfred is now linking staff pay to FOBT turnover in a take-it-or-resign deal.
There is also a negative impact in tourist areas such as Blackpool. Last year, £168 million was wagered on the machines in Blackpool, with the bookmakers making more than £5 million in profit. My hon. Friend the Member for York Central (Hugh Bayley) has said:
“I do not believe that the proliferation of high-street gambling in these tourist destinations is good for tourism.”
The effect has as much to do with the impact on other sectors as on the strong association with crime. The businesses involved are national chains with national profits, providing few jobs and draining tourist spending in those tourist destinations.
There is no requirement for age verification before people play on FOBTs, and no checks on where cash has come from, so the machines are used by criminals for money laundering. An investigation by The Guardian revealed that drug dealers will load cash into the machine, play with minimal risk—for example, they will put £48 on red, £48 on black and £4 on zero—and then cash out after a few spins. That “cleans” the money, as they can ask for a receipt and if they are stopped by the police they can say they won it at the bookies. Ladbrokes is now under investigation by the Gambling Commission with respect to its money laundering procedures, and Coral has recently been rebuked by the regulator for allowing £900,000 to be laundered through its machines by a drug dealer. It rewarded the perpetrator with a VIP trip to the races, as it saw him as a valued customer.
Philip Davies (Shipley) (Con)
I refer hon. Members to my entry in the Register of Members’ Financial Interests.
Surely the hon. Gentleman cannot have it both ways and say that the machines are so bad that people lose a lot of money in no time, but that they also give punters such a high return that they are used for money laundering. Which one is it? Do people lose money hand over fist on the machines, or do they get such a big rate of return that it is worth laundering money through them? It cannot be both.
Graham Jones
I am grateful for that intervention, because what I said is correct. There is a rate of return—a diminishing one. Those who want to launder money play for a short time and put as much in as they can, minimising the diminishing rate of return, but addicts, as I said earlier, play till all their money is gone. The diminishing return accumulates to the point where, as Michael in Blackburn said, there is nothing left. The diminishing rate of return is relevant when people are trying to clean money. Addicts will play to the end.
Fixed Odds Betting Terminals
Debate between Philip Davies and Graham P Jones(12 years, 1 month ago)
Commons ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text
Philip Davies
The right hon. Gentleman says that, but many of his constituents work in them, of course, and many of his constituents enjoy going into them. If they did not enjoy going into them, they would not be open.
It is true that more bookmakers have moved on to the high street in recent years, but their overall number has not gone up; instead they have moved from the side streets owing to lower rents because of the recession largely caused by the Labour party, and they will probably move back on to the side streets when the economy recovers and rents on the high street go back up.
Anyway, where are the legions of retailers wanting to open up on the high street in place of bookmakers? It is not a decision between having Next on the high street or William Hill or having M&S on the high street or Paddy Power. It is a choice between having Ladbrokes on the high street or a boarded-up shop.
Philip Davies
I cannot give way again as I have taken the two interventions allowed.
People ask for a demand test and there is a demand test: it is called a customer demand test, which is the ultimate demand test.
The second myth is that bookmakers target poorer areas. There are two bookmakers per square mile in the most deprived areas. That compares with nine pubs and 11 takeaways. If the Opposition are saying that bookmakers are targeting the poorest people in society, what do they have to say about pubs and takeaways targeting those people? Do we hear anything about that? We do not, because this is not about the poorest in society being targeted; it is about people who are anti-gambling and anti-bookmaker. Bookmakers are not targeting poorer areas. This is about middle-class people being patronising towards working-class people by telling them that they know best how they should spend their money.
The third myth is that the machines are used by the poorest people. Again, that is untrue. The health survey published in recent months shows that gambling prevalence was highest in the top quintiles of household income, with 6% of people in the highest income quintile playing FOBTs, compared with 4% in the lowest quintile. The hon. Member for West Bromwich East said that he did not want surveys to be linked to the gambling industry, but this is the health survey, which has nothing to do with the gambling industry. That survey makes it clear that richer people are much more likely than poorer people to play FOBTs.
Only two gambling activities in that health survey were engaged in more by poorer people than by richer people. They were scratch cards and bingo. Poorer people spend more on scratch cards and bingo than do the richest people. What are the Opposition saying about scratch cards and bingo? Nothing, because they do not think that it would be popular to say anything about them. This is just a case of crocodile tears.
Canterbury City Council Bill
Debate between Philip Davies and Graham P Jones
Graham Jones (Hyndburn) (Lab)
The hon. Gentleman makes the point that with ticket touting it is acceptable to charge an added value or premium, but that income and revenue belongs to the artist, performer or whomever the person buying the tickets has paid to see. Does he not agree that that is denying them an income?
Localism Bill
Debate between Philip Davies and Graham P Jones
Graham Jones
No.
The Minister of State had the opportunity before to say what he has said this evening, but there are real issues—[Interruption.] That is fine, but it is the Government who are putting forward their new clause, which now has no teeth.
In conclusion—because I was wrapping up—the LGA says that the proposal will be problematic to enforce. What are the Government enforcing? How can local government increase recycling rates for residents? If action is to be taken, it will hit some of the poorest communities that have higher recycling rates, not some of the wealthiest ones, and the same goes for landfill taxes. I appreciate Ministers’ comments, but as far as I am concerned, I am delighted that all the teeth have been taken out of this proposal.
Philip Davies
I certainly hope that the Minister will give me as helpful a response as he gave the previous speaker when he considers my amendments.
My new clause 8 would allow local authorities to vary Sunday trading hours in their areas. As hon. Members will know, under the Sunday Trading Act 1994, large shops over 280 square metres may open for only six continuous hours between 10 am and 6 pm on Sundays, excluding Easter Sunday, when they must remain closed. I think that this is rather anachronistic. Sunday trading is increasingly popular. I have no interest to declare, but I do have some experience to declare, as somebody who worked for Asda for 13 years. In my time there, Sunday trading hours were the busiest hours of the trading week. Contrary to common belief, Sunday trading hours were also the most popular hours that members of staff wished to work, because for many people Sunday was one of the few days on which they could do additional hours, as they had other people at home looking after their children and so on. If people want to shop on a Sunday or work for certain hours, I do not really see what business the Government have telling them what hours they can do.
Members may be aware that Scotland has a different regime. Sunday trading is fully deregulated in Scotland, although, under the Sunday Working (Scotland) Act 2003, workers have the right to refuse to work on Sundays. I am not aware that the whole world has collapsed in Scotland as a result of deregulating Sunday trading hours. In fact, my experience is that it has proved to be incredibly popular with both customers and workers alike. I would like workers and shoppers in England and Wales to have exactly the same rights to shop or work in shops at a time of their choosing as people in Scotland have.
My new clause 8 would not give local authorities the opportunity simply to extend Sunday trading hours, because I believe in true localism. My new clause also offers local authorities the opportunity to restrict Sunday trading hours further, if they so wish. If we believe that decisions should be taken locally, we should give local authorities the widest possible ability to make decisions to suit their areas. In areas that need extra regeneration, the opportunity to open for extra hours on a Sunday might be welcome, as it may benefit the local authorities in such areas. I do not see why the Government should stand in those authorities’ way if they believe that to be an important part of their regeneration strategy. Other local authorities may wish to restrict Sunday trading hours. I would not advise them to do so—I do not think it would be very popular—but that would be up to them, as democratically elected local authorities. So I hope that the Minister will explain whether he agrees with my proposed extension of the principle of localism. If he does not agree, will he tell me what on earth his objection is to extending a right to the people of England that the people of Scotland already have?