Forest Risk Commodity Regulations

Debate between Lord Benyon and Lord Forsyth of Drumlean

Tuesday 12th March 2024 Lords Chamber

[Lord Benyon (Con)]

I will write to the noble Baroness about Drax, because it is a very complicated issue. It fits into the UK’s net zero balance sheet in terms of what Canada is doing, where the woodchip comes from. I want to be absolutely right in my answer, so I will write to her.

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean (Con)]

My Lords, further to the question from the noble Baroness, I entirely agree with her. What are the Government doing spending hundreds of millions of pounds in subsidies to Drax in order to have trees cut down in America and then brought across the Atlantic? All of this is because somebody has designated “burning wood” as ticking the box for “saving the planet”, which it clearly is not.

[Lord Benyon (Con)]

Biomass is a perfectly legitimate renewable energy source if the wood that is being used is a renewable and sustainable harvest. My noble friend and the noble Baroness are absolutely right that if the wrong sort of timber is used and being shipped to this country at huge carbon cost, taxpayers, shareholders and investors need to know the precise and genuine cost to our net zero commitments that that poses.

Clothing Sales: Sustainability

Debate between Lord Benyon and Lord Forsyth of Drumlean

Monday 11th September 2023 Lords Chamber

[Lord Benyon (Con)]

We have made some progress. The Textiles 2030 policy, promoted by WRAP, helps signatories to reduce their water and carbon footprints per tonne of clothing by 18.2% and 21% respectively. We want to help local authorities with the work that they are doing and they are being funded to bring forward changes to packaging recycling collections through the extended producer responsibility payments. Separate food waste collections will be funded via new burdens payments, and new collection requirements for consistency in recycling for households in England will come in shortly.

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean (Con)]

My Lords, following on from the question from my noble friend Lady Jenkin, might we all be able to avoid buying new clothes if the authorities in this House did something about the moths?

[Noble Lords]

Oh!

Horticultural Peat

Debate between Lord Benyon and Lord Forsyth of Drumlean

Tuesday 9th May 2023 Lords Chamber

[Lord Benyon (Con)]

The noble Baroness has made the point that I am about to make rather better than I will, and that is that we need to do all of these things. We need carbon capture and storage, because that will be a big part of dealing with our greenhouse gas emissions and protecting our environment, including our peatlands. I am sorry that this Government annoy her; I live for the moment when she and her Green Party colleague stand up and congratulate the Government on having serious targets for protecting our peatland and addressing climate change in a way that no other country is.

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean (Con)]

My Lords, does my noble friend not accept that one of the reasons he is able to pass laws and deal with this in a balanced manner is he has the freedom to do so because we have left the European Union?

[Lord Benyon (Con)]

I did not see that one coming. I may have been on a different side to my noble friend but I can tell him that, on environmental issues, I am enjoying the freedom that I have, both nationally and internationally, to take action to protect our environment.

Scotland: Bottle Deposit Return Scheme

Debate between Lord Benyon and Lord Forsyth of Drumlean

Monday 27th February 2023 Lords Chamber

[The Minister of State, Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Lord Benyon) (Con)]

My Lords, as waste policy is a devolved matter, the Scottish Government have opted to roll out a DRS independently of the rest of the UK, due to launch on 16 August this year. We remain in close contact with officials and industry to learn from the delivery of the Scottish scheme and align on key decisions wherever possible.

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean (Con)]

My Lords, that Answer simply is not good enough. This is a unilateral scheme that has been completely ill thought out. Indeed, one of the candidates for the SNP leadership has said it should be cancelled. The deadline for businesses to register is tomorrow. It means a death sentence for small producers of beverages and price increases for Scottish consumers, and it drives a coach and horses through the UK internal market. It requires an opt-out from the internal market Act to proceed. Will my noble friend throw a lifeline to those businesses and consumers?

[Lord Benyon (Con)]

Let us see whether I can try to encourage my noble friend with this reply. The Government have not yet received an official ministerial request from the Scottish Government for a United Kingdom internal market exemption. There have been discussions at official level. He is entirely right to point out the failures of the Scottish scheme and the impact it will have on Scottish businesses. In November some 600 businesses wrote to the Scottish Minister outlining various reasons why the deposit return scheme is going to fail in Scotland. These include a risk of fraud, major losses in consumer spend, loss of investment in the Scottish economy, and financial and environmental implications for local authorities.

I have to wait and see whether the Scottish Government apply for a UKIM exemption, and then I can answer my noble friend’s question. One of the front-runners to lead the SNP has announced that if it rolls out in Scotland in August as planned, it will create “carnage”. I agree.

Water Companies: Pollution Penalties

Debate between Lord Benyon and Lord Forsyth of Drumlean

Wednesday 22nd February 2023 Lords Chamber

[Lord Benyon (Con)]

The review is looking at everything. There is no attempt to resile from that figure. That figure relates to one area of sanction. It may be that we should look at unlimited fines to be decided by the courts. We are not suggesting a floor or a ceiling at this stage, but we want to ensure that water companies that knowingly, incompetently and against permitted agreements release sewage into our water and environment are sanctioned. I assure the noble Baroness that there is no attempt to resile from this.

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean (Con)]

My Lords, am I alone in wondering how it can make sense to impose large fines on companies when investment is required and that money is no longer available, rather than holding the management and the directors responsible personally to account?

[Lord Benyon (Con)]

I think that fines have their place. Certainly, how we have changed the rules in terms of, first, how the Environment Agency can recover the costs of doing inspections and, secondly, how the fines that it recovers can be spent on the natural environment and improving it is entirely right. We are determined to see continuing investment. We have the largest investment in our water sector now: £56 billion. That will continue, but we must be able to fine those companies that breach the rules, and that is what we are doing.

Climate Change

Debate between Lord Benyon and Lord Forsyth of Drumlean

Tuesday 1st March 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Benyon (Con)]

The noble Baroness is entirely right in her assessment. The Dasgupta review and other work has indicated the impact that global warming will have on our ecosystems and economy. The CCC has identified eight priority areas for urgent attention and considered 61 UK-wide climate risks and opportunities cutting across multiple sectors. We are looking at every risk and tackling those eight priorities, four of which come directly under Defra and all of which are cross-government.

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean (Con)]

My Lords, does my noble friend not recognise that, since the climate change conference, one of the risks that we need to be concerned about is security of supply for the energy that we need to keep people warm and keep our economy operating? Does he not think that this might be the moment when we should refresh our ideas on whether we allow fracking and the exploration of gas in our own resources so that we can maintain that security of supply?

[Lord Benyon (Con)]

The greatest stability in an unstable world is for us to decarbonise our economy as much as we can and become less reliant on other countries, or indeed on hydrocarbons, for our future. The Government’s strategy thus far has been absolutely right, and we will continue to make sure that our economy is resilient to the kind of global instability that we are experiencing at the moment.

Hunting Trophies

Debate between Lord Benyon and Lord Forsyth of Drumlean

Tuesday 22nd February 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Benyon (Con)]

I have read some of the speculation in the press, but this is not something that has come to me in my department as part of these discussions. We will see in the near future whether the noble Baroness is right or wrong when this legislation is published and pre-legislative discussions have taken place.

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean (Con)]

My Lords, does my noble friend agree that, if people do not like the process by which foie gras is made, the option is not to buy and not to eat it and we do not need the Government to ban it?

[Lord Benyon (Con)]

The Government are bringing in a range of animal welfare measures. We have a proud tradition in this country across parties of having concern for animal welfare. There is a long list of measures that the Government can take, have taken and will take. When the animals abroad Bill is published, everything in it has to be seen in relation to a much wider determination to protect animal welfare.

Fishing: France

Debate between Lord Benyon and Lord Forsyth of Drumlean

Monday 1st November 2021 Lords Chamber

[Lord Benyon (Con)]

On the vessel that has been seized, I cannot give the noble Baroness that assurance at the moment, but I can promise that we are working closely to find out some rather complex details that lie behind it. I can assure her that we are talking regularly across government and directly with the Commission. Madame Girardin, who is the French Minister, has the number of my ministerial colleague, Victoria Prentis, on speed dial. We will continue to talk to the Commission, which is the responsible body, to resolve this.

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean (Con)]

My Lords, will my noble friend join me and the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of St Albans in congratulating the Prime Minister on his robust stance in the interests of British fishermen? As for those in this House who seem to think that the fault lies on our side, might he reflect on the remarks by the French Prime Minister that somehow Brussels should punish us for following the democratic wishes of the British people? Will he urge the European Union to stand up for democracy and against this kind of blackmail?

[Lord Benyon (Con)]

The Commission has a duty to abide by the trade and co-operation agreement and discussions are now taking place on that. I hope that all sides of the House have been disappointed by some of the rhetoric that has been coming our way. I am pleased that the Prime Minister had a thorough and open conversation with President Macron in Rome, and those conversations will no doubt continue in Glasgow.

Animal Welfare (Sentience) Bill [HL]

Debate between Lord Benyon and Lord Forsyth of Drumlean

Committee stage
Tuesday 6th July 2021 Grand Committee

[Lord Benyon (Con)]

My noble friend takes me down a rabbit hole. I do not think I can add to what I already said. The serious point is that we want people with real expertise and knowledge, and the committee must not be too big—so there is a challenge for me, if I am the Minister, or for the Secretary of State. We have to create something that delivers a real understanding of the wide range of issues it will look at, from fishing practices on the high seas through to—as he states—abattoirs and other areas.

I have received inspiration, which I will share with my noble friend. As I have said, appointments will be decided in accordance with the code on public appointments. Applicants would, in line with best practice, be required to declare any potential conflicts of interest to the recruitment panel. It would then be for the panel to determine whether an applicant would proceed. Members of the committee will declare any relevant interests, and the committee will make a list of these interests publicly available.

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean (Con)]

My Lords, I very much agree with what the noble Baroness, Lady Hayman, said about the need for experience across the board. I was hugely impressed by the speech by the noble Lord, Lord Carrington. His emphasis was on agricultural issues, but the noble Baroness, Lady Hayman, made a really important point: this committee can look at any aspect of government policy. On my reading of the Bill, government departments are meant to share with this committee any new policies they are thinking of applying that could have an impact on sentient animal welfare. That is a huge, enormous task. If you are to have a committee capable of looking at all these government departments and what they are up to, you will need people with expertise.

My noble friend suddenly found some inspiration. I do not think it was very good inspiration; he should send it back. I compare, to put it delicately, the Government’s record on public appointments and the security provided—I am thinking here of non-executive directors of government departments, for example—with the sort of strictures that the Treasury and the Bank of England quite rightly put on me as chairman of a bank in deciding on the composition of a board. We were required to show what levels of expertise were met, to recruit accordingly and to have an arm’s-length process, all of which is appropriate. If it is good enough for financial services and regulated businesses, why should it not be good enough for government, government bodies and, in this case, a statutory body?

When my noble friend says he has a good idea in his head of what the Committee is thinking—his head is much better than mine—but is not going to share it with us because it might cause difficulties, he is really saying: “I would really like this legislation on the statute book, so that I can do what I like and it will be too late for all of you to complain.” That is another way of putting it, perhaps rather brutally.

I am just thinking of Michael Gove, who at one stage during the Brexit campaign said he had had enough of experts. I was quite sympathetic to that, but in this case I think we want experts and people who are independent. We need to know who these people are and how on earth this committee, with its very broad remit, will carry out its functions.

Of course I will withdraw my amendment, but I am not persuaded by my noble friend. I hope whoever provided him with his inspiration has listened to this debate, in Committee, and will go back to the drawing back and consider how this committee will meet its enormous role.

Just on that little bit of last-minute inspiration that reached him, it was suggested that the committee would look for conflicts of interest. Actually, you want people on there who have conflicts of interest, because that means experience and expertise. If we exclude people who have conflicts of interest, we might not have somebody who, for example, knows about slaughterhouse, because they may have some interest. It is not clear to me how this committee will be composed or who, in their right mind, would take on its chairmanship of such a committee, with such a broad brief and ill-defined role. I beg leave to withdraw my amendment.

--- Later in debate ---

[The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Lord Russell of Liverpool) (CB)]

I have received two requests to speak after the Minister, from the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth, and the noble Baroness, Lady Jones. I call the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth.

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean (Con)]

My Lords, I was just reflecting as I listened to the Minister. He said how important it was to have expert advice. I thought the whole raison d’être of this House was that it provided expert advice on legislation to government. Therefore, my question to the Minister is, having sat through nearly five hours of people questioning the efficacy of Clause 1 and giving him advice to come back with some further thoughts on the composition of the committee, and having heard all of that, will he undertake to bring government amendments back on Report to deal with the issues of composition which have been raised? I have to say to him: if he does not do that, there is no way—we are not able to vote that Clause 1 stand part—but there is no way that I would support it as it stands because it is an empty shell. Without repeating all the arguments that have been put by the Committee, it will lead the Government into great difficulties.

I listened very carefully to what he said. Does he really believe that it is necessary to have a statutory committee to achieve his declared purpose? I heard what he read out, but, putting it unkindly, what he was saying was: we are using legislation as a sort of poster board on which to say how much we care about animal sentience. It is perfectly within his powers as a Minister to set up a committee and give an undertaking that the committee’s reports will be debated within three months in Parliament. It would be great if Ministers did that for existing Select Committees of this House. I have one outstanding for nearly two years for the Economic Affairs Committee.

It feels as if this is just a bit of window dressing, a bit of virtue-signalling, which is actually going to create great problems for the Government. My question is: will the Minister now give us an undertaking that he will come back with amendments to Clause 1 which give it some substance, given the very strong views which have been expressed by everyone? Without exception everyone has said that this clause is inadequate because it does not define the composition of the committee.

The Minister said, quite rightly, that he needs flexibility, but when I was Secretary of State for Scotland, I had to make a huge number of appointments to committees. The legislation often provided, in more general terms, the composition of the committee. It might say that you must have somebody with technical expertise in this area or that, and that the balance of the committee should be X, Y and Z. The people giving him advice in his department are perfectly capable of coming up with a form of wording that would meet the requirements expressed today by the Committee and allow for flexibility.

As to the point about what would happen if someone left the committee after three years, again, in the commercial world, people are expected to do succession planning and look at the composition of the committees. One would expect Ministers to do the same. So, can we have an undertaking that the Minister will bring forward amendments on Report to save us the trouble of having to do so and having yet another extended period of debate? I do not think the clause as it stands will wash.

[Lord Benyon (Con)]

It would be the height of arrogance to say that I was just going to walk into this Committee Room, sit here and leave without taking note of what noble Lords have said. We will be studying Hansard very closely on what has been discussed today and we will reflect on trying to make this Bill more workable for all sides of the House.

I recognise that creating legislation is always a complicated process and nothing, not even a small Bill like this, is devoid of differing views and perspectives. My noble friend has expressed one forcefully today. I think he would much prefer to be spending this afternoon doing something else and not having to worry about this piece of legislation. Others absolutely, vehemently want this piece of legislation to get on the statute book, so, sailing my route between Scylla and Charybdis, I can certainly guarantee that I will reflect on what he and other noble Lords have said. I hope that we can bring something forward at the next stage which will satisfy—not everybody—but some.

The noble Lord’s point about succession is absolutely right: in the corporate world, you manage the succession of your boards, think ahead and make sure that gaps are filled. I have done that for 40 years, but it does not always work: you get gaps, and you have to have the flexibility in order to continue with the work of the committee effectively as and when they occur. However, I totally take his point, which he is right to make.