Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Bill

Debate between Baroness Coffey and Lord Falconer of Thoroton

Committee stage
Friday 5th December 2025 Lords Chamber

[Lord Falconer of Thoroton (Lab)]

I apologise for interrupting, but I think there is a profound misunderstanding. Let us look at Clause 8, because the noble Baroness, Lady Coffey, is making a very important point. Jess Asato was incredibly keen to specify that training in respect of

“domestic abuse, including coercive control and financial abuse, is mandatory”.

Clause 8(8) says:

“The regulations must provide that the practitioner must have had training about the following”,


and paragraph (d) says “domestic abuse”. Subsection (10) says that training on domestic abuse must include

“training in respect of … coercive control and financial abuse”.

That was the point that Jess Asato was keen to establish.

Noble Lords will see at the top of page 41 of the Bill that the definition of domestic abuse

“includes behaviour that is controlling or coercive or … economic abuse”.

What is happening here is not a watering down of any of that. It is simply avoiding duplication between Clause 8(10) and the wide definition of domestic abuse in Clause 56. I understand why the noble Baroness might be confused about it, because it is slightly complicated, but that is the intention. It is not for one second to water down any of the protections.

[Baroness Coffey (Con)]

My Lords, I do not think I am confused at all. I know what Jess Asato tried to get into the Bill to give her assurances, and that something has changed. I had moved on to talk about the amendment from Jack Abbot, which was very important.

The issue of illness is an example of where the Government said they had worked with the Bill’s sponsor. The challenge of this group—I am thinking about what the noble Lord, Lord Birt, said earlier—is that we are covering multiple issues on the basis of drafting changes. I would rather get into the substance of some of this when we get to later groups. However, Clause 14 says that, in the very unlikely circumstances that the doctor who agreed to give a second opinion “dies” or “through illness” is unable to continue, the person has the right to seek a second opinion elsewhere. My point is about removing “through illness”, which was specifically included the Bill. I am trying to understand why the noble and learned Lord is seeking to do that. I have already heard him say that you can just find another doctor, but I am particularly keen to hear from the Government their view, because they worked with the Bill’s sponsor in the Commons to get this phrasing about illness in.

The sponsor’s Amendment 416 is to do with independent doctors and Commons Amendment 459, and there is more than one reference to this issue. There was significant debate when Sarah Olney introduced her amendment in Committee in the Commons seeking to reduce the possibility of abuse by making sure that the second independent doctor has available the reasons why the first independent doctor concluded that the person was not eligible. My interpretation of the amendment tabled by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Falconer of Thoroton, is that that goes away and there will not be two reports, and the amendment speaks further about aspects of the reports.

This amendment brought attention from other MPs. Lewis Atkinson talked about recognising that the provision of five different touchpoints of assessment—I appreciate the effort that has gone into trying to bring in safeguards around these matters—is one of the strengths of the Bill and that each assessment should be done in a way that can be progressed with more information. On the Bill’s record-keeping provisions, the assessment should become increasingly informed throughout the process, and therefore there should be an opportunity for a lot of those things to be shared with the panel, as the Bill proposes. Kim Leadbeater said that she was minded to support Sarah Olney’s amendment, but, again, some of those changes are being taken out.

I am not entirely clear about Amendment 417. I somewhat understand the disability definition, although there is only one reference to Section 6 of the Equality Act 2010 anywhere.

This group of amendments needs careful scrutiny as we go through the different groups for later discussion. One of the aspects that we need to make sure of is that the extensive concessions made in the other House do not all of a sudden, through just a few changes here and there, go away. In fact, as we know, in this House we are even considering what further safeguards there could be. One of my reasons for rising today was to bring this to the attention of the Committee. I am not suggesting that the noble and learned Lord, Lord Falconer of Thoroton, has done this in bad faith. He may well think that this is just being more efficient, but the extensive debate and the support in the other place—indeed, the support of Kim Leadbeater—for several of these amendments as they were originally drafted mean we should be asking him to think again. We will get into some of the detail in the debates on future groups. I beg to move.

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[Lord Falconer of Thoroton (Lab)]

The noble Baroness is right that it is the Equality Act, not the disability Act; I apologise for that. If we were to restrict it to that, we would restrict it to a particular thing, and we think that it should be wider that. Again, we can talk about that at the ever-expanding meeting.

On Amendment 416, the noble Lord, Lord Ashcombe, was particularly exercised by the fact that the second doctor would not see the report of the first doctor; he would have some degree of problem with that. The noble Lord will know that, where a second doctor is brought in—where a referral is made to a new practitioner—the co-ordinating doctor must provide the new doctor with a copy of the previous report. If the new doctor is satisfied as to all the matters mentioned in Clause 11 on capacity et cetera, he or she then has to say why he or she disagrees with the previous doctor. The noble Lord’s legitimate sharpness in relation to that point was based, I think, on an improper understanding of Amendment 416, which will allow this to happen only once the new doctor sees the report of the previous doctor.

In the light of my exchange with the noble Lord, Lord Moylan, which was right for us to have, I will not move my amendment. Although the noble Baroness, Lady Coffey, was kind enough to indicate that she will withdraw her amendment to my amendment, because the noble Lord, Lord Moylan, thinks his drafting is better, we will have to wait and see what happens on Report. Do not hold it against me when I come back with the same amendment on Report.

[Baroness Coffey (Con)]

I thank the noble and learned Lord for his extensive responses. They reflect that “ensure” and “take reasonable steps” are actually different in law compared with what is expected. I am grateful to him for saying that he will not press his amendments in Committee and that he will allow us the opportunity to meet him and others to discuss some of these issues, where we think the provisions go beyond what might be considered legal drafting. I am slightly concerned that the Government did not reply to one particular aspect, but I will take that up separately with the Minister. But with that, I beg leave to withdraw—

[Lord Wolfson of Tredegar (Con)]

Before my noble friend sits down, I wonder whether the noble and learned Lord might take the opportunity to respond to the point I put to him on confirming the drafting of that amendment. He must have overlooked it.

[Lord Falconer of Thoroton (Lab)]

That is in the notes, but I will write to the noble Lord on that.

[Baroness Coffey (Con)]

With that, I beg leave to withdraw Amendment 7.

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[Lord Falconer of Thoroton (Lab)]

I am surprised to hear that. I will make inquiries, but I am almost sure that that will not be the case with this.

The noble Lord, Lord Mackinlay, gave us an interesting tour d’horizon of the law and said how “ordinarily resident” applies in various areas. “Ordinarily resident” means the same thing in all those areas. For the reasons I have already given, I do not think it will prove a difficult thing to apply in practice. I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Meston, for his endorsement of the approach to “ordinarily resident”.

The noble Lord, Lord Wolfson, asked me a number of questions, such as about the citizen who was ordinarily resident here and then went to live abroad—I think that was the case raised by the noble Lord, Lord Moylan. If a person decided that they were going to move to Spain and live the rest of their days there, then when they become ill they wanted to come back and have an assisted death, under the terms of this Bill they would not be eligible because they would not have been ordinarily resident in this country for 12 months—this country being England and Wales.

The noble Lord’s second question was about somebody from Northern Ireland who comes here and asks for an assisted death. Again, they would not be eligible because the assumption under his question was that that person’s ordinary residence was in Northern Ireland. His third question was about why opinion is not satisfied. It seemed to us that opinion is enough in relation to this because it would be done basically by asking a number of questions and you would assume that the answers that you had would be honest.

[Baroness Coffey (Con)]

I notice that the noble and learned Lord has taken interventions. I do not believe that he has addressed my issue about the risk of tourism. He has used interchangeably during his explanations “permanently” and “ordinarily resident”. No distinguished lawyer here has countered the view that you can be ordinarily resident in more than one country at the same time. We have the broader issue that case law and NHS guidance can change this. It really needs revisiting. Will he try to address my issues about tourism and this Bill?

[Lord Falconer of Thoroton (Lab)]

My Lords, I honestly think that is a smokescreen. The Bill says, in a way that the law has recognised time and again—because this Parliament has to make choices from time to time about who gets benefits—that the benefits of the Bill should be given only to those who ordinarily live in this country. That phrase has not given rise to problems. The courts understand it, doctors understand it and the panels will understand it. If we in this Parliament cannot say that we will give rights only to those who are ordinarily resident, which is a phrase that means something, we will never be able to determine who is entitled to our rights. I say, with the greatest respect to the noble Baroness, Lady Coffey, that what we are trying to do in the Bill is clear. I invite the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay, to withdraw her amendment.

Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Bill

Debate between Baroness Coffey and Lord Falconer of Thoroton

Committee stage
Friday 21st November 2025 Lords Chamber

[Lord Falconer of Thoroton (Lab)]

I think I answered that; the noble Lord may not have been satisfied with my answer, but I did answer it by saying that people have to be satisfied that the decision is voluntary and without coercion. If they do not know, because they cannot read adequately the community, they could not be satisfied.

[Baroness Coffey (Con)]

The noble and learned Lord has just made a point about the risk of coercion and referred to a psychiatrist. It would be very helpful to understand what clause in the Bill he is referring to, because Clause 12(6)(b) is only about the capacity of the person; it is not talking about coercion. I am also conscious that capacity is on the balance of probabilities anyway. It would be useful to understand which clause he believes referral would be in, on the grounds of coercion.

[Lord Falconer of Thoroton (Lab)]

I will come to that in a moment, because I have to get through the amendments—we have to make progress a bit. However, I completely understand the question.

Amendment 50 is from the noble Lord, Lord Evans. He basically said that when anybody tries to behave badly, trying to coerce or pressure somebody into making the decision to have an assisted death, that should be sufficient to bar it for ever, even if it had no impact whatever in relation to it. I see the force of that; I think it would be a wrong amendment, for the following reasons. Somebody—a doctor—might go over the line, but it is absolutely clear that the person definitely wants an assisted death. I do not think they should be barred from doing that because they are concerned about what might happen to the doctor or to the person they love if it is absolutely clear that they have not been coerced or pressured into it.

On Amendment 52 from the noble Baroness, Lady Grey-Thompson, she is saying that somebody should not be subject to or at risk of coercive control. Everybody agrees that the person who is adopting the assisted death should not be subject to coercive control. If they are at risk, I would expect the two doctors and the panel to investigate that fully and, if they are not satisfied that the person is reaching a decision of their own, plainly an assisted death cannot go ahead. But I think we are all on the same page in that the risk has to be properly investigated and a conclusion reached.

Amendment 57A in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Lawlor, says you should not be allowed to have an assisted death if someone has been

“prompted to consider ending their own life”—

presumably in the context of assisted death—by any professional person. Clause 5 leaves it to the judgment of the doctor as to whether they raise the question with the patient. If they raise it, they have to raise it under Clause 5 in the context of the treatment available to the patient and all other options available, including palliative care. I do not think that if a doctor, or indeed any other professional person, makes a judgment that it would be sensible to raise it, that should thereby debar the person from having an assisted death. The noble Baroness wants to intervene. By all means let us prolong the debate if it is a new point.

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[Lord Falconer of Thoroton (Lab)]

With the greatest respect, the noble Baroness has missed the point. If, for example, a person says to the doctor, “I’m not telling you things”, the doctor can never be satisfied. That is the protection.

[Baroness Coffey (Con)]

Would the noble and learned Lord write to me with the answer to the question I asked earlier?

[Lord Falconer of Thoroton (Lab)]

Of course, and I apologise for not answering it.

Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Bill

Debate between Baroness Coffey and Lord Falconer of Thoroton

Committee stage
Friday 14th November 2025 Lords Chamber

[Lord Falconer of Thoroton (Lab)]

I am not sure the noble Lord has quite understood what I have said. It is for the regulations in so far as they deal with the Welsh health service to be delivered by Welsh Ministers, so it is quite inappropriate for us to put them in this Bill.

[Baroness Coffey (Con)]

My Lords, I was brief at the start because I wanted to give the Minister the chance to be transparent for the benefit of this House. I am sorry to say that I hope that the letter will give that, but I am concerned that it will not. The reason I say that has been well explained in the discussions in the Welsh Senedd. In the supplementary to the latest legislative consent memorandum, it says:

“The UKG has not confirmed their position as to whether they believe the consent of the Senedd is required for this Bill as amended at the House of Commons Report stage but have acknowledged that some clauses do”.


When will the Government share with this House what they think is devolved and what is reserved? Why are they reluctant to do so? This is what I am struggling to understand. I have been asked outside this Chamber why am I bothered about Wales. I care about Wales anyway. It may not be widely known, but I went to school in Wales, I have family in Wales and both my parents are buried in Wales. But I would say that I am also here as a legislator.

Having been an MP, a Minister and a Cabinet Minister, I am used to being taken to court on details of legislation, and to the back and forth with devolved Administrations. I am not doing this simply to try to be awkward; we are trying to define the legislation. The Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee in the Welsh Senedd believes that Clause 1 should be devolved. To give another example, people might be aware of the issue of smacking. Basically, Wales was able to use its child welfare powers and then made a request. We will come on to this later in the debate about amending the Government of Wales Act, I think. If we recognise that the only context under this Bill in which there can be help with assisted death—assisted suicide—has to be healthcare settings then surely there is something there about the Welsh Senedd having the opportunity, through later amendments, to make that determination in the first place.

I mention that now because my noble friend Lord Markham and the noble and learned Lord, Lord Thomas, said we should be deciding the principle of whether this Bill should be seen in that regard. Actually, recognising the whole, I am strongly of the view that this should be taken out of this Bill through an amendment to the Government of Wales Act. That is to some extent why I put tabled this. Will the Minister confirm the Government’s position on Clause 1? I would be very happy to have an answer from the noble and learned Lord, Lord Falconer of Thoroton, on whether he believes that. The Welsh Parliament certainly does.

Further, will the Minister put in the Library the minutes of the meetings so we can understand what is happening between the two Governments about the practicality and legality of this aspect of the Bill? I know that Ministers will, understandably, often say that it is all legally privileged. Those of us who have been in government know that you tend to get small aspects of legal privilege and lots of policy content in regarding and summarising, which is not legally privileged. That is where I hope that we can get this transparency from the Minister and, if necessary, the sponsor—I do not quite understand this; it is one of the most complicated Private Members’ Bills I have ever seen—and, actually, just an answer to whether Clause 1 is reserved or not.

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[Baroness Coffey (Con)]

I was hoping to get an answer; we can speak more than once in Committee, because we are trying to understand. Otherwise, later days in Committee and Report could become quite painful. I hope to get an answer from the Minister today.

[Lord Falconer of Thoroton (Lab)]

I have been absolutely clear that, in so far as Clause 1 affects a change to the criminal law, it is reserved. In so far as implementation of it by the health service is concerned, that is a matter for the Welsh Government, not the Bill. If there is any lack of clarity in that answer, let me know.

[Baroness Coffey (Con)]

I would be grateful if any advice that has been given to the noble and learned Lord by officials is shared with the Committee. It is helpful, when determining legislation, to understand that, and it would be especially helpful if the Government, who have said they are getting involved only on legality and practicality, were to express their view. They will not even tell the Welsh Government what their view is, and that is very concerning.

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[Baroness Coffey (Con)]

I want very briefly to put on record that Professor Sir Chris Whitty is not the Chief Medical Officer for England and Wales, but for England only. I will wait for another time for the answer to the question I asked about power of attorney to be given, ideally by the Minister.

[Lord Falconer of Thoroton (Lab)]

I will answer that one. No, you cannot do it by power of attorney. You have to do it yourself.