Pension Funds: Investments and Tax Relief

Viscount Younger of Leckie Excerpts

Thursday 29th June 2023 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Altmann]

To ask His Majesty’s Government, further to tax relief provided to pension funds, what assessment, if any, they have made of the actions taken by pension trustees to ensure their investments (1) effectively manage climate risk, and (2) comply with treaties on human rights.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Work and Pensions (Viscount Younger of Leckie) (Con)]

My Lords, the Government have introduced legislation and published guidance alongside the TCFD requirements to help pension schemes improve the quality of governance and manage climate risk. DWP committed to review the requirements in late 2023. These reviews will utilise insights from the regulator’s review of early reports and will also consider clarifications of fiduciary duty. DWP also launched an industry-led task force on social factors, which aims to produce a guide for industry by this November.

[Baroness Altmann (Con)]

I congratulate my noble friend the Minister and the Government on their work so far, but as at least 25% of all pension fund assets originated from taxpayer reliefs, does he agree that the Government have ample justification to expect pension funds to invest responsibly, supporting national objectives? Does he share my concern that this seems not to be happening? For example, Corporate Adviser magazine’s February 2023 ESG report shows that the three largest pension providers invest in cluster munitions, even though the UK is recent president and signatory of the international agreement to end their use, and that investment in domestic companies and green projects has been weak. Will the Government encourage or ensure that more of the taxpayer contribution to all pension funds helps UK markets and supports UK sustainable growth and climate and nature protections, to meet social or national objectives?

[Viscount Younger of Leckie (Con)]

I hope I can answer a number of the points that my noble friend made. On her general push, she is right: there is a lot more we need to do to encourage pension funds to invest in net zero. The introduction of the TCFD reporting requirements for pension schemes was pioneering; these regulations are still relatively new and it would be premature to judge their effectiveness, but a lot more is happening in this space, as my noble friend will be aware. As well as the task force, we have a stewardship review, which will assess the effectiveness of the guidance, and alongside this the Financial Reporting Council, which works alongside the FCA, my department and the regulator.

[Lord Rooker (Lab)]

What legal authority do the Government have to attempt to create a de facto sovereign wealth fund by manipulating our pension assets? Unlike countries such as Norway, we do not have experience of running a sovereign wealth fund. I feel uneasy. I want the investment to be in this country—that makes sense—but doing it in the way it seems to be being done is fraught with difficulty. Will the Government take extra care over this attempt to manipulate pension funds, because we now have trustees with powers they did not have 30 years ago?

[Viscount Younger of Leckie (Con)]

I do not know about manipulation of pension funds, but I can say that there are strong fiduciary duties on trustees. The noble Lord will know that in the green finance strategy, published in March, the Government committed to engaging with interested stakeholders on how we can continue to clarify fiduciary duty through a series of round tables and a working group of the Financial Markets Law Committee. I think it fair to say that many larger schemes consider climate change risk, which I think is the gist of his question, to be financially material; we have made this clear in guidance.

[Lord Palmer of Childs Hill (LD)]

My Lords, debate on how pension fund assets can be used more productively has focused on defined contribution pensions, rather than traditional defined benefit or final salary-type pensions. Given the large sums currently held in defined benefit pension schemes under a very tight regulatory regime, what plans do the Government have to allow such schemes to invest more productively, as other speakers have said in other contexts, while ensuring members’ benefits continue to be secured?

[Viscount Younger of Leckie (Con)]

The noble Lord makes an important point about defined benefit schemes, which he will know are still maturing, with decreasing numbers of active contributing members and increasing numbers of pensioner members. It is therefore important that their pensions are properly protected and that these schemes are properly funded. The majority of schemes in the DB sector are well run, plan for the future and manage their risks effectively, but the gist of the noble Lord’s question is that there is still more to be done.

[Baroness Stedman-Scott (Con)]

What assessment has been made of the burdens placed on trustees in respect of reporting? This must have a chilling effect on getting people to become trustees of pension funds.

[Viscount Younger of Leckie (Con)]

We are not unaware of this. We have carefully considered the balance between the burden of reporting requirements for trustees on climate risk and the need for urgent action in this area. That is why we have introduced TCFD requirements only for the very largest schemes, as my noble friend will probably be aware, which have, let us face it, more capability and capacity. It gives us the widest coverage of pension scheme numbers while minimising burdens on trustees.

[Baroness Hayman (CB)]

My Lords, I draw attention to my interests as recorded in the register and to the fact that I have a son who works in this area. The Minister referred to the complexities and nuances of the clarification of fiduciary duty, an issue that was much debated during consideration of the Financial Services and Markets Bill. What interaction is His Majesty’s Government having with the Financial Markets Law Committee, which is looking at this, and the round tables? Will parliamentarians have the opportunity to be involved in those?

[Viscount Younger of Leckie (Con)]

I would hope that parliamentarians have a role in this; I shall certainly get back to the noble Baroness on that point. As she will know, guidance states that trustees can consider climate change, but we acknowledge that there is some ambiguity, which I think is the gist of the noble Baroness’s question. That is why we are engaging with the Financial Markets Law Committee working group, which is discussing further fiduciary duty. The next meeting will take place at the end of the month.

[Lord Deben (Con)]

May I encourage the Government to do what they have sought to do, but to recognise too that the speed at which climate change is happening is right at the top end of what the scientists thought? Therefore, the fiduciary duty of pension funds to take that into account becomes the more urgent. I hope that in the review later on in the year, the Minister makes sure that they understand the devastating effects on those investments.

[Viscount Younger of Leckie (Con)]

I know that my noble friend is extremely active in this area, and I reassure him that we continue to encourage pension schemes to commit to net zero in a way that works for them. As mentioned earlier, from October 2022 we introduced this requirement in the TCFD regulations, which is specifically to calculate and report the extent to which their investments are aligned with the Paris agreement goal.

[Baroness Sherlock (Lab)]

My Lords, the Climate Change Committee has just reported that the Government are missing climate targets on nearly every front, which makes it all the more disappointing that they opposed a recent Labour amendment to the Financial Services and Markets Bill that would have required the Treasury carefully to review the case for pension funds investing in green infrastructure while maintaining the soundness of funds. Can the Minister tell the House why?

[Viscount Younger of Leckie (Con)]

No, I cannot, but I can say that the introduction of TCFD reporting requirements for pension schemes was pioneering. We are a leader in this field. As I say, these regulations are still very new and there is a lot going on in this space, and we will be reporting by the end of the year.

[Baroness Sheehan (LD)]

I refer to my interests as per the register. The FCA, in its consultation on AGM voting, proposes that standardised vote reporting be wholly voluntary, with zero incentives for firms to adopt the framework. However, earlier this month, the noble Baroness, Lady Penn, in her role as the Minister taking the Financial Services and Markets Bill through this House, said that

“the Government will carefully consider whether its recommendations go far enough to address existing issues of transparency, and what further action may be appropriate”.—[Official Report, 6/6/2023; col. 1326.]

It is now clear that they do not go far enough to allow trustees to fulfil their fiduciary duty, so what further action does the Minister think appropriate?

[Viscount Younger of Leckie (Con)]

Well, indeed. There is a point of contact, which may be helpful for the noble Baroness, called the UK National Contact Point, which is part of the Department for Business and Trade. It is responsible for promoting the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development. It may be helpful to know that considerable guidance has been given for pension schemes in this respect.

Cost of Living Support

Viscount Younger of Leckie Excerpts

Thursday 22nd June 2023 Lords Chamber

[Viscount Younger of Leckie (Con)]

My Lords, I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Sherlock, and the noble Lord, Lord Palmer, for their comments and questions. I will start by addressing a point the noble Baroness made. We wanted to use this opportunity to explain the help we have already given and are continuing to give to those who are definitely suffering as a result of the problems in the economy at the moment; “problems” is an understatement, and I am the first to say that. We wanted to make it clear that it is not just about the £150, which was the gist of the Statement; the Government are providing total support of more than £94 billion during 2022-23 and 2023-24 to help households and individuals with the rising cost of living.

Cost-of-living payments are only one part of the overall support. We want to get that message across if we have not done so already. It includes support for energy costs, which was alluded to by the noble Lord, Lord Palmer, and the extension of the household support fund in England, which helps with rents, which again were raised by the noble Lord. In 2023-24 we increased benefits, state pensions and the benefit cap by 10.1% and made further increases to the national living wage.

I want to say quite a bit more because one of the issues to raise, which is obviously very topical at the moment, is mortgages and inflation. I reassure the House that tomorrow, the Chancellor will meet with principal mortgage lenders to ensure that they are living up to their responsibilities to their customers, and to ask what help they can give to people who are struggling—I do realise that they are struggling—to pay more expensive mortgages and what flexibilities may be possible for families in arrears. Of course, I am aware of the announcement today.

We have a clear target to halve inflation this year and to support the Bank of England as it returns it to the 2% target. I remind the House that the IMF forecasts that inflation will reduce substantially to around 5% by the end of the year, which would be a large fall from the highs we saw last year. I remind the House that in March, the OBR forecast that inflation would be 2.9% by the end of the year, and that the last Bank of England forecast, which was in May, was for inflation to go down to 5.1% by the end of the year. However, we are not complacent. This is a serious time, as everyone has been saying. We remain focused on our very important ambition, which is to drive inflation down while providing a cost-of-living package worth about £3,300 per household on average over this year and last. The IMF has already noted the “decisive and responsible steps” that we have taken, and we will continue to take such steps to deliver on this priority.

The noble Baroness, Lady Sherlock, asked about other countries. I have already made the point that we are on track to halve inflation and continue to support the Bank in delivering the 2% target. We believe that inflation is on a downward trajectory, although I understand that it is stubborn. Even though the reduction is quite small, it is in part thanks to our action to hold down energy bills and freeze alcohol and fuel duty, which is having a direct impact on driving down inflation.

The noble Baroness, Lady Sherlock, and the noble Lord, Lord Palmer, asked about Scope. I am very aware of the report. They have been many studies estimating the cost of disability, including this latest Scope report and previous ones from Scope and other organisations. The common feature of these reports is that their findings vary due to the definitions of disability and methodology being used. Our view is that there is no objective way of deciding what an adequate level of benefits should be, as everyone has different requirements. Beneficiaries are free to spend their benefits as they see fit, and in the light of their individual commitments, needs and preferences.

The noble Baroness, Lady Sherlock, focused on the disabled and support for them, and she made some very important points. I hope she knows that we will be spending around £78.6 billion in 2023-24 on benefits to support disabled people and people with health conditions, which is around 3.1% of GDP. The Government are providing a further disability cost-of-living payment of £150, which is part of the gist of the Statement. The majority of these payments will be made to eligible claimants this week. Indeed, many have been made already.

The noble Lord, Lord Palmer, focused on fuel poverty. I make the point, which he would expect me to make, that advanced economies around the world share the challenge of high inflation arising from the energy shock, and the UK has been affected by those global factors. The energy price guarantee, as he will know, was extended at the same level for an additional three months, to the end of June 2023, and it will remain in place as a safety net until the end of March 2024. There are some signs that energy costs are reducing, but again, we are not complacent.

The noble Lord, Lord Palmer, asked a focused question about the use of food banks. He will know that we have some recent data from the latest Family Resources Survey. The Government are using that data to better inform them about the use of food banks. We are well aware that food banks are being used as never before—we are very aware of that.

The noble Lord, Lord Palmer, makes a very good point about repossessions. At the moment, although we are not complacent, repossessions remain at a lower rate than before the pandemic. We are not complacent because of course we see the pressures around.

[Lord Young of Cookham (Con)]

My Lords, unlike others, I find much to welcome in the Statement, not least the increase in the maximum payments of 50% to those on universal credit for childcare, which will help them find work. However, is my noble friend confident that the childcare market will be able to respond to the increased demand that is likely to result from this increased beneficence from the department?

[Viscount Younger of Leckie (Con)]

My noble friend makes a good point about childcare, and the House will be aware of the announcements that were made recently. We are determined to support as many families as possible with access to high-quality affordable childcare, which is why the Spring Budget announced these significant new investments to expand free early education entitlements from 2024-25, together with uplifts in 2023-24 and 2024-25 for the existing entitlement offers.

On his specific question about demand versus supply, that is a very good point. We are confident that supply will meet demand, but we are also aware—certainly I am aware of some anecdotal evidence—that demand is going up, and we want to be sure that demand meets supply. Although I do not have any figures, I reassure my noble friend that we are aware of this particular matter.

[The Lord Bishop of St Edmundsbury and Ipswich]

My Lords, we recognise the value of the immediate and urgent provision that is being suggested and those points being argued for. However, in the light of our experience of the deepening crisis, I wonder whether, because of the interlocking nature of so many factors, now is the time to be looking at a comprehensive anti-poverty strategy.

[Viscount Younger of Leckie (Con)]

We have already taken a number of initiatives, which the right reverend Prelate will be aware of, to look at poverty. As I say, this is a particularly difficult time. Although I cannot comment on a particular poverty strategy, the important point is that we have a number of initiatives across government to address specific aspects of poverty. That includes families and children, and of course it includes those who are homeless, who we are very aware of, as well as the increasing homelessness issue.

[Baroness Hollins (CB)]

My Lords, at the same time as the cost of living crisis, local authorities’ social care budgets are under pressure. I have heard from some disabled people who have a personal budget that they are being asked to make an increased contribution, thus significantly reducing their direct payments. I do not think the proposed new payment will eliminate even those increased contributions, let alone really help with the cost of living situation.

[Viscount Younger of Leckie (Con)]

As I said earlier, the £150 should be taken at face value, and I think I made the point that there are a number of other initiatives to help those who are disabled. It is important, as the Minister in the other place said on Tuesday, to look at the total package, including the £150, that we have in place to help those who are disabled.

[Baroness Armstrong of Hill Top (Lab)]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for repeating the Statement. However, neither his remarks this morning nor the Statement acknowledge the real size of the problem that we now have. I am almost sorry for him that so many things have happened since the Statement was first made on Tuesday, one of which was yesterday’s Joseph Rowntree Foundation report showing that 5.5 million people in lower-income households did not have food last year—they skipped meals and had poor meals, which of course affects their health—while 4.5 million lower-income households are now in debt, many of them to people who will then demand very high rates of interest and so on. They cannot get credit in the way that he and I could get it, at lower interest rates—although all the interest rates are going up now. These are really scary numbers, and the JRF has shown that this is now embedded across our society.

I talked this morning for an hour and a half with organisations in the north-east that are working with the most vulnerable families. I came off that call really scared about the future, because of the numbers involved. Does the Minister understand that this is far more serious than the way we have paid attention to it so far suggests? We really need a serious, overarching strategy to tackle poverty and improve public services, so that the most at risk get the best and the most help, which they cannot get at the moment.

[Viscount Younger of Leckie (Con)]

I hope the House will recognise that I am certainly not playing down the seriousness of the position at the moment. I am very aware, as the House is, of the further interest rate rise today. The Government absolutely recognise the pressures that people are facing and have acted, providing total support of over £94 billion, which I mentioned earlier, over 2022-23 and 2023-24. I have already mentioned the uprating, which I will not go over again, and that we will be making further cost of living payments totalling £900.

However, there is more to say, given the noble Baroness’s question. I have already mentioned that the Chancellor is meeting mortgage lenders tomorrow to see what more can be done, but he has already met the Competition and Markets Authority, to be sure that there is fair competition between the supermarkets so that we make sure that food prices come down. As we are all aware, food inflation is still far too high. It was 19% last month; it has now nudged down a bit but it is still far too high. That is really important, particularly for those who are the most vulnerable. I reassure the noble Baroness that we really do take this seriously. I think we all know that it is a defining moment.

[Lord Bilimoria (CB)]

My Lords, I remind the Minister that, in February 2021, when I was president of the CBI, I asked Rishi Sunak, when he was Chancellor, if he was worried about inflation, because I was worried about it then. Today, we have the highest inflation in the G7, while the United States of America is already at 4% inflation—less than half our rate. Today, our interest rate is at 5%, the highest in 15 years, and we have the highest level of tax burden in seven decades. Today, we have a debt to GDP ratio of 100%; the last time it was at that level was over six decades ago. Does the Minister acknowledge that two of the Prime Minister’s five priorities are growth and halving inflation? Given the situation we are in now, where households are struggling to make rental and mortgage payments, which are increasing as a proportion of their income, is a recession likely? What are the Government’s plans to help people deal with their mortgage and rental payments, because there is a crisis looming in front of our eyes?

[Viscount Younger of Leckie (Con)]

I hope I can help the noble Lord. As I have already mentioned, inflation really is one of the Prime Minister’s key priorities. He has made it clear, as we have, that reducing inflation is absolutely key. He also speaks about growth, while making it clear that growth comes as a secondary item to inflation. However, it is also important that the economy grows. In previous answers, I have made it clear that we are doing as much as we possibly can to look at what more banks can do to be helpful. One thing which I have not said is that we are working closely with the Bank of England, while making it clear that the Bank is independent in also working as hard as it is in the fight to bring down inflation. It is not just us in the UK; as others have said, there are similar issues in other countries, particularly in Europe. However, I realise that in the UK we still have a lot of work to do.

[Baroness Kramer (LD)]

My Lords, the Minister looks to a negotiation with the banks to provide better terms to mortgage holders who are under pressure. He must surely accept that the banks will offer those terms to those they deem their most attractive customers, not to low-income house owners, who cannot take the required flexibility of interest-only or a long extension to their mortgage’s life. That is the group, surely, which needs to be served by an emergency mortgage fund to rescue this situation. Surely he could find the money to support those who will see their mortgages rise by more than 10% of their disposable income and take the money back from the banks, which are seeing bumper profits off the back of rising interest rates.

[Viscount Younger of Leckie (Con)]

I certainly note what the noble Baroness has said. I have mentioned already that the Chancellor is meeting the banks. I do not want to pre-empt the outcome of those discussions. What is important are the initiatives we have taken already to help people. There is support for people who have mortgages. We have increased the generosity and availability of the support for mortgage interest scheme, meaning that those on universal credit can apply for a loan to help cover interest repayments after three months rather than nine and can now receive support while working.

A new Financial Conduct Authority customer duty, coming into effect next month, will ensure that firms put customers first, delivering fair value and ensuring good outcomes for those in financial difficulty. The noble Baroness raises a very important point and I hope that further measures can be produced. We await the outcome of discussions.

[Lord Liddle (Lab)]

My Lords, I have a great deal of personal sympathy for the noble Viscount in having to make this Statement to the House on this of all days. I do not doubt his personal commitment to ensuring fairness and help for the people in the most desperate situations in our society, but I would like him to respond to two observations.

First, the main problem we have, which my noble friend Lady Armstrong referred to, is the number of families who can no longer afford the basics of life. In thinking about policy as it goes forward, we have to think harder about the generational distribution of impacts. I am a wealthy pensioner. I got the generous support for energy bills. Is that right, when families are in such desperate need?

Secondly, Conservative Back-Benchers need to stop talking about the urgent need for tax cuts. The fact is that we face desperate pressures on public services and benefits. We have debt at 100% and there are no proposals coming forward from the Government for credible reductions in public spending. The consequence of tax cuts is that there would be a tension between the monetary policy of the Bank, which is trying to deal with inflation through interest rates, and the fiscal policy. We would be at risk of prolonging high interest rates if we went ahead with irresponsible and unfunded tax cuts.

[Viscount Younger of Leckie (Con)]

I think the noble Lord made three points altogether. I can only reiterate that I am aware of the impact on households, particularly those at the vulnerable end of society. I have already mentioned a number of initiatives and points that are being made outside government, particularly what the supermarkets are doing. At the end of the day, it is the basics that count. That includes, as the noble Lord alluded to, where the next meal is going to come from.

The noble Lord made a good point about the generational aspect, which ought to be in all of our minds. Whatever is happening now, we need to think about the next generation and generations after that, helping children and looking at the educational side and the health aspects of children. Of course, I understand that the current situation does not particularly help.

Finally, on the noble Lord’s point about tax cuts, we have made it clear that we on this side wish to make tax cuts but are not in a position to do so. It is important to make the point again that tackling inflation is by far the biggest challenge. Although there are some signs that it will come down—we have the predictions and forecasts—there is a lot more work to do. But that is the most important point, and No. 10 made it as well.

[Baroness Thornhill (LD)]

My Lords, the Minister mentioned homelessness, and the best model currently available for that predicts 300,000 more homeless people over the next year. The group in that category that I believe is most vulnerable is low-income earners in the private rented sector. Of course, evictions in the private rented sector have more than doubled in the last year. As rents have risen, their benefit, based on the local housing allowance, has been frozen at 2018 levels—we all know that a lot has happened since then. So have the Government given any thought to unfreezing the local housing allowance, even if only temporarily?

[Viscount Younger of Leckie (Con)]

We keep it under review, but we are not looking at that at the moment. I understand the point that the noble Baroness makes about the LHA, but she will know that we have the discretionary housing payments, which are currently being delivered through local authorities to the most vulnerable. I reassure the noble Baroness that we keep a close eye on that to be sure, and to get the feedback, that these payments are being given and are helping those at the vulnerable end of society. Echoing the noble Baroness’s point, I am very aware that rents are very high—far too high—in the private rented sector, and seeing what more can be done is certainly very high among the Government’s priorities.

[Baroness Donaghy (Lab)]

As my noble friend Lord Liddle said, some of us are sympathetic to the noble Viscount’s predicament. It cannot be easy when the Bank of England has just announced a 0.5% increase in Bank interest rates. He said seven times—I counted—“We are not complacent”, and I know that he is sincere; he is much respected by this House. It would have helped if the Statement from the Government had not been quite so complacent. The reference to “global factors” does not seem to take any account of government responsibility over the last 12 or 13 years. Do the Government take any responsibility whatever for trashing the economy? Did Prime Minister Truss actually exist? If she did not, does that mean that she will not be able to put forward any peerages to this House? It would be interesting to know what precise responsibility the Government take for the current predicament: that our inflation rate is higher than in any other country in the G7, as the noble Lord, Lord Bilimoria, said.

The Minister himself said that 3.1% of GDP is not that high for helping our most vulnerable. Why will the Government not consider uprating some of these benefits to assist them? Even the 10.1% rate for pensioners scales into insignificance when the rate of inflation is 8.7%. It is probably still going up—the Minister said that it was going down, but that is slightly misleading, if he does not mind me saying so. Inflation is going not down but up. I think he is referring to the rate of increase slowing down, which is a very different matter. In view of the urgent situation, will the Government not think of more emergency uprating for some of these benefits?

[Viscount Younger of Leckie (Con)]

There are a number of points from the noble Baroness, who I respect very much, but I will not be drawn into some of the political points that she started off by making. What I will say—and this was in the Statement—is that a lot of what we are facing is to do with the post-pandemic issues that have arisen. As the House will know full well, the war in Ukraine has certainly been quite a factor in that.

I remind the noble Baroness—I think she said it herself—that the uprating of 10.1% we have made to a number of benefits was, we felt, generous. Others would say that we should have done more, but we felt that it was generous at the time. To go back to the beginning of her remarks about the Statement itself, whatever she made of the Statement, as I have said before, we are continuously looking at what more we can do to help those people at this particular time.

Child Support Collection (Domestic Abuse) Bill

Viscount Younger of Leckie Excerpts

3rd reading
Friday 16th June 2023 Lords Chamber

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Work and Pensions (Viscount Younger of Leckie) (Con)]

My Lords, before we commence proceedings on the Bill, I am obliged to make a statement on legislative consent in relation to it. The Bill was amended in the other place to make provision across the United Kingdom. As noble Lords will know, child maintenance policy is transferred to the Northern Ireland Assembly, and the usual process would be for it to provide a legislative consent Motion for any provision relating to a transferred area. However, due to the continued absence of the Northern Ireland Assembly and Executive, a legislative consent Motion cannot be secured.

Historically, the Northern Ireland legislation in this area has mirrored that in Great Britain. Following engagement with the Northern Ireland Department for Communities, the Government’s position is that it is important that this legislation proceeds to apply in Northern Ireland in the absence of a legislative consent Motion. This will ensure that the people of Northern Ireland can benefit from the provisions in the Bill.

Motion

Moved by

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Sherlock (Lab)]

My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Farmer, and congratulate him on having brought the Bill to fruition in this House. I add my thanks to the Minister and his team for having supported it, to the honourable Lady, Sally-Ann Hart, who piloted it through the other place, and to the charities, such as Gingerbread, which put so much work into supporting parents in this area.

Although this is a brief and focused Bill, it achieves one incredibly important task: it enables parents who have experienced domestic abuse to use the Child Maintenance Service without having to communicate directly with the abusive parent. It is a good example of how a Private Member’s Bill can do something quite specific but incredibly important to those affected by it.

We might have considered tabling some amendments to it, to explore some of the issues, but we want to make sure that the Bill reaches the statute book in this Session. I am very conscious that it is six years since Emma Day was murdered by her ex-partner. He threatened her life if she chased him for child support, and when she pursued a claim for child support, he stabbed her to death. I hope that those who still mourn Emma to this day will see the Bill, and the work of the noble Lord, Lord Farmer, and others, as a small step forward in protecting those who face domestic abuse in our time.

The absence of a Committee stage prevented me from following up on one specific question I asked at Second Reading, which the Minister missed the opportunity to answer. In Committee in the Commons, the Minister, Mims Davies, said:

“Full consideration is being given to exempting victims of domestic abuse from collection charges”.—[Official Report, Commons, Public Bill Committee, 14/12/22; col. 9.]


Can the Minister, either now or in writing, tell the House where that consideration has got to?

For today, we are pleased to offer our support for the Bill, and we wish it fair speed.

[Viscount Younger of Leckie (Con)]

My Lords, I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Sherlock, for her support for my noble friend’s Bill. I will most certainly write a letter to her, over and above the letters I have already written to her, which I hope she has received.

I am grateful to my noble friend Lord Farmer for presenting his Bill to the House, and to my honourable friend Sally-Ann Hart for introducing the Bill and guiding it through its stages in the other place. I am also very grateful to the Minister for Social Mobility, Youth and Progression for her support.

I remain very grateful to Dr Samantha Callan for conducting the independent review of the ways in which the CMS supports victims of domestic abuse, and for her excellent report. As your Lordships are aware, Dr Callan’s report includes a recommendation to enable cases to be moved to collect and pay where there is evidence of domestic abuse—precisely what this Bill aims to do.

To ensure that the Bill targets parents appropriately, the types of domestic abuse evidence that will be required will be set out in secondary legislation. This will reassure not only the noble Baroness, Lady Sherlock, but my noble friend Lord Farmer in particular. We will engage with stakeholder groups, other government departments and the devolved Administrations, where appropriate, to ensure that appropriate processes are established for verifying evidence of domestic abuse.

I hope that the whole House will join me in supporting my noble friend’s Bill and agree to the final stages of its passage.

Bill passed.

Food Price Rises: Impact on Low-Income Families

Viscount Younger of Leckie Excerpts

Thursday 25th May 2023 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Hussein-Ece]

To ask His Majesty’s Government what assessment they have made of the impact of the rise in food prices on low-income families.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Work and Pensions (Viscount Younger of Leckie) (Con)]

My Lords, we remain concerned about the impact of current global inflationary pressures on low-income families. This is a government priority and the reason why we have taken decisive action to support those on low incomes. The Chancellor met food manufacturers on Tuesday to discuss food costs and to explore ways to ease pressure on households. He also met the Competition and Markets Authority to discuss its investigations into the fuel and grocery markets.

[Baroness Hussein-Ece (LD)]

I am grateful to the Minister for his reply and that the Government are now seriously looking at this, but we know that inflation in basic foods is running at 19%, the highest rate since 1977, and polls show that one in six parents is going without—going hungry—so they can afford to feed their children, while supermarkets are still making record profits. The Minister may have seen reports that families with babies cannot afford baby formula, with the CEO of the British Pregnancy Advisory Service warning:

“We know that families experiencing food poverty resort to unsafe feeding methods, such as … watering down formula”.


What is the take-up of the Healthy Start allowance? Will the Minister urge his department to at least look at increasing its value, which is just £8.50 a week for children from birth to one year old and a staggeringly low £4.25 a week for children between one and four? Are the Government really going to stand by as babies are placed at risk of malnutrition and serious illness due to the cost of living crisis and the soaring cost of infant formula?

[Viscount Younger of Leckie (Con)]

There were a number of questions there from the noble Baroness. We know that it is tough for households and businesses across the UK at the moment and are doing whatever we can to support them with the cost of living. The noble Baroness will know that £94 billion is earmarked for giving out. On her question about supporting families who cannot afford the rising cost of infant formula, she will know that in cases of difficulty all local authorities should have an emergency formula provision pathway in place. Families can access this by talking to their health visitor or midwife, who can signpost them to local support. For women who cannot or choose not to breastfeed, Healthy Start provides support towards the cost of first-stage infant formula.

[Baroness McIntosh of Pickering (Con)]

My Lords, I congratulate the Government on organising the Farm to Fork summit but echo the sentiments of the noble Baroness who asked the Question. Does my noble friend share my concern that farmers are not receiving these increasing costs, which they are covering, of energy prices and food production, added to the shortage of staff? Will the Government use every opportunity to investigate the rising profits that the supermarkets are recording?

[Viscount Younger of Leckie (Con)]

I take note of my noble friend’s point on the Farm to Fork food summit, which allowed the sector to get together, discuss the future, provide further innovative methods on food supply and discuss the current situation. Supermarkets’ profit margins are actually surprisingly low; I have some figures that I can pass on.

[Lord Sahota (Lab)]

My Lords, with ever-increasing food prices, the Trussell Trust has said that 40% of people on universal credit are using food banks. Is it not about time that the Government looked at this benefit and increased it?

[Viscount Younger of Leckie (Con)]

We remain very aware that food banks are being used to a great extent. As I have done before, I pay tribute to those, including charities, who so ably and selflessly run them. With the Family Resources Survey that we picked up on recently, we are very aware of the issues and are determined to ensure that people do not and should not have to go to food banks.

[The Lord Bishop of Chelmsford]

My Lords, in the diocese which I serve, charities in Harlow alone have fed more than 1 million people in the last year, which, frighteningly, represents a slower than the average demand for food banks nationally. I draw the Minister’s attention to the Bounty Club, which works with local businesses and people on the edge of crisis, helping them access a large bag of fresh food for £2.50, saving households on average £20 to £40 a week. Demand in Harlow is such that queues are regularly seen from St Paul’s Church right down the street. What assessment have the Government made of the number of people who are on the cusp of falling into poverty? What strategies are they considering to prevent people requiring the use of their local food bank or even charities such as the Bounty Club?

[Viscount Younger of Leckie (Con)]

I take note of the point the right reverend Prelate makes about Harlow. We are alert to those who do fall into poverty. What I can tell her is that in 2021-22, there were 1.7 million fewer people in absolute poverty after housing costs than in 2009-10, but I am very aware of the current situation. All I can say is that we continue to keep an eye on this: we are spending £276 billion through the welfare system in 2023-24, including around £124 billion on people of working age and children, and £152 billion on pensioners, to help with this aspect.

[Baroness Sherlock (Lab)]

My Lords, the reality is that food is now the new energy; but it is worse, because households spend more of their budgets on food and it is not cheaper in the summer. In fact, it is worse, because the kids do not get free school meals. Food price inflation of 19% is a disaster for poor families. The Minister will know—because he has read the evidence—that those on low incomes, even in work, are already buying own-brand supermarket goods; they are already skipping meals; and they are already going to food banks. There is nowhere else for them to go. Is any thinking going on in the Government as to what they will do right now to help those families this summer?

[Viscount Younger of Leckie (Con)]

Of course, the noble Baroness is right. I said at the beginning that much work is going on with regard to interaction with the supermarkets. A number of supermarkets have some urgent initiatives on the go. For example, ASDA has invested £73 million, allowing it to drop and lock prices for over 100 household products. The prices of these products were dropped by 12% on average and will remain this way until the end of the year. Morrisons has similar initiatives: it has cut prices on more than 500 products. It is more than this, and the noble Baroness will know that it is not just the UK. There are other countries, including Germany, where food price inflation remains high, at around 18% or 19%.

[Lord Dodds of Duncairn (DUP)]

My Lords, have the Government made any assessment of the impact on the food industry, and therefore the impact on prices for consumers, of the new labelling requirements, which appear to be quite onerous and are required under the Windsor Framework? The Government are now saying that these will apply not just to goods going to Northern Ireland but right across the United Kingdom. Severe concerns have been raised about the impact on food prices of those requirements.

[Viscount Younger of Leckie (Con)]

I do not have any figures to support an answer to give to the noble Lord, but what I can say—to which I alluded earlier—is that, in terms of supermarkets and profits, looking at the money side, there is no reason to believe that supermarket profit margins have significantly increased recently. The overall profits of Tesco and Sainsbury’s fell by 51% and 62% respectively in 2022-23. On the link with Northern Ireland, I will certainly look at my answer, and I may well write to the noble Lord.

[Lord Marlesford (Con)]

My Lords, does the Minister agree that the big problem is with processed food—the more processing, the higher the prices? Fresh food is another matter. The price of wheat this time last year was more than £300 a tonne; it is currently less than £200 a tonne. That is actually less than it was before the Ukraine war started. What effect does the Minister think that will soon start to have on the price of bread and meat?

[Viscount Younger of Leckie (Con)]

The truth is that many people on low incomes find it easier, and sometimes cheaper, to buy processed food. That is a fact. Having said that, we would encourage people to go to the local market to buy food. Again, the supermarkets are really stepping up to help those on low incomes.

[Lord Palmer of Childs Hill (LD)]

My Lords, I heard what the Minister said about the Government doing everything they can to help, but I do not think that it is everything. Are they considering extending free school meals? What are they doing about energy bills? An earlier questioner asked about this, but there was no real answer. What are they doing to crack down on the profiteering by supermarkets? The Minister gave an example of one or two supermarkets, but they are not helping people on low incomes.

[Viscount Younger of Leckie (Con)]

I take issue with the noble Lord, because they are, and I have made that clear with some examples. On his point about free school meals, under this Government eligibility has been extended several times, and to more groups of children than under any other Government over the past half a century. That includes the introduction of universal infant free school meals and further education free school meals. Approximately 1.9 million pupils are claiming free school meals, and it cost about £1 billion a year. A lot has been done in this area.

Child Support (Enforcement) Bill

Viscount Younger of Leckie Excerpts

2nd reading
Friday 19th May 2023 Lords Chamber

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Work and Pensions (Viscount Younger of Leckie) (Con)]

My Lords, I congratulate my noble friend Lady Redfern on her excellent introduction to the Bill and for initiating this important debate on Child Maintenance Service processes. As has been said, it has the full backing of His Majesty’s Government, and it gives me great pleasure to speak in support of it today. I will say something about my role, just to reassure the House: far from being a hospital pass, it is generally a great privilege to take on. There is a lot to do in this respect on the Child Maintenance Service, and I want to take forward many of the initiatives and changes that my noble friend Lady Stedman-Scott commenced.

There were a number of questions from the noble Baroness, Lady Sherlock, and I am very grateful for some advance notice of them. I may not be able to answer all of them, but I will do my best. I will answer most of them towards the end of my remarks.

As has been said, this is ultimately about helping children who have faced a particularly traumatic experience. Parental separation can be devastating for children. The work of the CMS cannot entirely put that right, but it can help to give those children a much better start in life that they otherwise would not have had. That is why the Child Maintenance Service exists. I am particularly grateful to my noble friend Lady Bottomley for giving us some history and context, going back to two redoubtable ladies, Barbara Castle and Margaret Thatcher.

Let me start by giving the Bill some of my own context. The purpose of the CMS is to facilitate the payment of child maintenance between separated parents who cannot reach their own agreement. In the financial year ending 2022, it is estimated that there were 2.5 million separated families in Great Britain. In the three-year period covering the financial years from 2020 to 2022, it is estimated that parents with care in separated families received a total of £2.6 billion annually in child maintenance payments, through both private and CMS arrangements. These payments helped to keep around 160,000 children out of poverty each year, a subject raised by my noble friend Lady Bottomley. I hope this has helped to answer one or two points she raised.

I understand how complex and traumatic separation can be for families, and we know that the vast majority of parents want to do the right thing and provide financial support for children they no longer live with. This is a challenging job undertaken in very difficult circumstances; these points have already been made by some other Peers in this short debate. CMS staff work incredibly hard to collect maintenance so that separated families receive the financial support they are due.

My noble friend Lady Redfern so eloquently explained how the CMS manages cases through one of two service types, and how it will take action to re-establish compliance and collect any unpaid amounts that have accrued. For parents who choose not to comply with their obligations, the CMS will attempt to deduct their maintenance and any arrears directly from their earnings. This is done via a deduction from earnings order or request, and employers are obliged by law to take this action. Where parents are self-employed, deductions can be made directly from solely held, joint and business bank accounts.

The aim of enforcement is to recover money needed to support children, as mentioned earlier, not to punish paying parents. However, where parents refuse to pay and all other avenues have been exhausted, the CMS can apply to the magistrates’ court, or sheriff courts in Scotland, to obtain a liability order. This enables the use of more stringent enforcement powers, such as instructing enforcement agents and other court-based enforcement actions.

However, the liability order process is now outdated, and making an application to court in each case is administratively burdensome. Currently, applications to court for liability orders typically take about 20 weeks to process, meaning five months where no tangible activity can take place to get that money where it is needed. Moreover, the debt will accumulate, putting the parent further into debt and making it harder to exit that spiralling situation.

This Bill, through my noble friend, amends existing powers which, once commenced, will allow the Secretary of State to make an administrative liability order where the paying parent has failed to pay an amount of child maintenance, without the need to make an application to court. This means that the CMS can react quickly and start those crucial first steps on the enforcement journey much sooner, which will substantially speed up the enforcement process, as was raised by my noble friend Lady Stedman-Scott in her eloquent speech. I applaud her, adding to the complimentary comments made by my noble friend Lady Bottomley. She has made vital important improvements to the CMS. She was a staunch advocate for its work securing money for children, as she said.

Most paying parents want to do the right thing and support their children, but we recognise that some of those parents might be struggling. I was struck by the important comments made by the noble Lord, Lord Palmer, who highlighted that some of them genuinely struggle and that there is a sensitivity involved in ensuring that we remember that. The noble Lord asked how often assessments are revalued if paying parents are struggling. Parents can report changes of income at any time. Where the change is greater than 25% of the income recorded in our system, we will alter the liability. He will know that the calculations are reviewed annually. In these tragic cases where parents cannot afford to pay their arrears because of other debt, which does happen, in most circumstances the CMS will aim to agree an affordable and sustainable payment arrangement which settles the outstanding arrears within two years. The CMS can also signpost paying parents to relevant organisations if there is a declaration of hardship. I say again that these are very sensitive issues. I add my comments to those of noble Lords concerning those on the front line for the Child Maintenance Service, who do their best in these difficult circumstances.

However, rest assured, as I know that the noble Baroness would wish me to say, we will not hesitate to use our enforcement powers wherever necessary for those relatively few parents who will find every which way not to pay. We are targeting our use of enforcement agents and liability orders more effectively, and the processes are more efficient. To answer a question raised by my noble friend Lady Stedman-Scott, in the year to December 2022, the CMS was granted 9,600 liability orders in England and Wales. The CMS has worked to target the use of liability orders more effectively. Processes are now more efficient and on average the CMS is collecting more money per liability order in process. To ensure that these powers are used proportionately, the Bill will stipulate that they will only be used where a deduction from earnings order is inappropriate or has been ineffective. The Bill will also allow the liability order to be varied if, for example, the amount of arrears upon which the liability order is based is subsequently found to be incorrect because investigations have revealed further details about a paying parent’s finances which were divulged to the CMS previously.

Further protections will be made available through secondary legislation, which will give parents the right of appeal while setting out some parameters around the appeal process—including the period within which the right of appeal may be exercised, the powers of the court in respect of those appeals, and for a reliability order not to come into force in specified circumstances. I will say more about secondary legislation in response to the questions raised by the noble Baroness, Lady Sherlock.

The appeal provisions through secondary legislation will be reflective of powers already in use and working well for other child maintenance enforcement measures, such as those which allow for deductions directly from a parent’s bank account. Where a valid appeal has been made, the CMS will not act on a liability order until the appeal has been resolved by a court. I hope this answers the question raised by my noble friend Lady Stedman-Scott. They will also reflect current provisions for liability orders by preventing the court questioning the maintenance calculation as part of the enforcement process. Where a parent disagrees with the calculation, there are already alternative routes they can take. They can ask the CMS to reconsider it through the mandatory reconsideration process and subsequently appeal to the Tribunals Service if they are dissatisfied, or they can report a new change of circumstances, which could lead to a new calculation.

To develop the secondary legislation on the Bill, my department will consult and engage with stakeholder groups, as well as other government departments, such as the Ministry of Justice, and the devolved Administrations, where appropriate, to ensure that parents are suitably supported. The secondary legislation will follow the affirmative procedure, so this House will be able to debate the proposals put forward.

My noble friend Lady Bottomley touched on enforcement improvements, and I shall go a little further and reassure her. The House will know that the CMS has made improvements to enforcement processes to increase the effective use of powers. This includes simplifying deductions from earnings and increasing efficiency by reducing the manual intervention required, and the CMS is also making better use of deductions from bank accounts. This has increased the volume of deductions and means that money is being collected more quickly for children even before the Bill. Working in partnership, the CMS has improved court processing times by introducing virtual court presenting and electronic exchange of documentation. Only 8% of the total maintenance due to be paid since the start of the CMS remains to be collected through collect and pay. Just to put this in context, this was as high as 17% in March 2015.

My noble friend Lady Bottomley also touched on paying parents—there was a theme anyway about paying parents and some of them avoiding their obligation to pay. I say again that we are aware of a small number of parents whose maintenance liability is inconsistent with their financial resources. Cases involving complex income or suspected fraudulent behaviour can be looked into by the FIU, the financial investigation unit. This is a specialist team that can request information from a wide range of sources to check the accuracy of information that the CMS is given.

The noble Baroness, Lady Sherlock, asked about Section 33(5) of the 1991 Act. I can give her some assurance—it may be that I have to follow up with more detail—that this power is not used because, since 2015, regulations have allowed the CMS to share information directly with credit reference agencies. The Bill does not affect those data-sharing provisions and the CMS will retain the means of disclosing information to credit reference agencies when required.

The noble Baroness also asked why the provisions that the Bill amends are not shown in the 1991 Act on GOV.UK. I may have to follow up with a letter on this, but they are not on GOV.UK in the 1991 Act because they are uncommenced. I think that is what the noble Baroness said, but I will look at my reply and see if I can enhance what I have just said.

I have a very short reply to the noble Baroness’s very important point about the missing letter to Matt Rodda: yes, we have written and, yes, it is now deposited in the Library, so I hope that is helpful for the House in general.

The noble Baroness, Lady Sherlock, asked a broader question about what the Bill actually does. I think she knows what the Bill does, but she focused on the commencing of administrative liability orders and the appeal routes, and I will say a little more about that. One of the questions was why the provisions were not commenced in 2012. We considered commencing these powers in the past, but the powers as originally drafted included a right of appeal to the First-tier Tribunal. This would be an expensive option for the Child Maintenance Service and would create unnecessary demand for the Tribunals Service. Linked to that is the question of why there is a change to the appeal route; I think this is central to the questions she raised. Our intention is now to commence these powers with certain changes we are making through the Bill, including replacing the requirement to create a right of appeal to the First-tier Tribunal with a more appropriate court-based appeal. Provisions relating to appeal rights will be set out in regulations, so there is more discussion to be had on this and I hope that provides some help.

I am aware of the time. I hope the House recognises the importance of this Bill; it has the full support of His Majesty’s Government and I very much welcome it.

State Pension Underpayment Errors

Viscount Younger of Leckie Excerpts

Tuesday 16th May 2023 Lords Chamber

[Lord Davies of Brixton]

To ask His Majesty’s Government what steps they are taking to tackle under-payment errors in state pensions.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Work and Pensions (Viscount Younger of Leckie) (Con)]

My Lords, the Government are fully committed to ensuring that state pension error is put right as quickly as possible. More than 1,300 staff have been recruited or redeployed to the ongoing state pension underpayment correction exercise, with case reviews expected to significantly increase this year. This is an issue that dates back many years, and we are working hard to correct these historic errors and to ensure that they do not happen again.

[Lord Davies of Brixton (Lab)]

My Lords, I thank the noble Viscount for his reply and I know that he takes the issue seriously. However, it is notable that the figures published last week by the Office for National Statistics showed that the main cause of underpayment was what it termed “official error”, and in the last financial year, the underpayments totalled £580 million—£50 million more than in the previous year. It is getting worse. I note what the Minister says about additional staff, but it is clear that more needs to be done.

[Viscount Younger of Leckie (Con)]

The noble Lord is right. We know that 700,000 cases require review; an estimated 230,000 customers will be affected. In terms of what we have actually done, 173,538 cases have been reviewed; 46,760 underpayments have been identified, and just over £300 million was paid in arrears. As for the reasons that were highlighted by the noble Lord, they are multifarious. One is that DWP staff sometimes fail to manually set an action system prompt on state pension accounts to review payments, such as reaching an 80th birthday.

[Lord Geddes (Con)]

Is my noble friend aware of the beneficence of his department in that those who have reached their fourscore years get a huge 25p a week supplement, which, to the best of my knowledge, has never been reviewed since 1971? Is this good value for money?

[Viscount Younger of Leckie (Con)]

I take note of what my noble friend has said. It is interesting to note that we are talking about an overpayment rather than an underpayment. Far from me to authorise taking away 25p from my noble friend, despite the fact that I am a Scotsman.

[Lord Palmer of Childs Hill (LD)]

My Lords, the department has said that the current large-scale correction for those cheated of their full entitlement should be completed by the end of 2024, but in its most recent annual report it admitted a different error, relating to home responsibilities protection, where thousands of mothers are missing out on NI credits. Can the Minister assure the House that the department will not wait until the end of the current correction exercise before it starts on this new category of cheated errors?

[Viscount Younger of Leckie (Con)]

The noble Lord makes a good point about home responsibilities protection, which is one of the issues that we are looking at in a timely fashion. We will be providing estimates and next steps for corrective action in the summer. Obviously, we are looking to move at pace to resolve these issues.

[Baroness Lister of Burtersett (Lab)]

My Lords, the noble Viscount’s Written Statement last week celebrated the fall in fraud and overpayment error in the social security system as a whole, but it rather glossed over the increase in underpayment to £3.3 billion. That is money which is not going into the pockets of people who need it. Do the Government not think that under- payments are as important as overpayments, and what are they doing to minimise underpayments?

[Viscount Younger of Leckie (Con)]

Of course they are important. Any underpayment is incredibly important, as I am sure the noble Baroness would agree. The department became aware of issues with state pension underpayments in 2020 and, as mentioned earlier, the issues go back several decades and through different Governments. We have taken immediate action to investigate the extent of the problem and are carrying out highly complex scans of computer systems. Correction activity commenced on 11 January 2021; I say again that this is an important matter and we are moving at pace.

[Baroness Altmann (Con)]

My Lords, as the exercise is focusing on women, and women’s state pensions are still noticeably lower than those of men, are those who are entitled to arrears also entitled to some kind of compensation or consolation payment? How is my noble friend’s department prioritising the work?

--- Later in debate ---

[Viscount Younger of Leckie (Con)]

I note what my noble friend says about the gender disparities, which we are alert to. Indeed, the department has a discretionary scheme which allows special payments to be made to customers to address any hardship, but particularly injustice caused by DWP maladministration. Consistent with other large-scale LEAP exercises, special payments under the DWP discretionary scheme will not, however, routinely be made, but I assure the House that they are regarded or assessed on a case-by-case basis. Finally, on prioritising, it is important to note that we are prioritising those who are alive over those who are deceased.

[Baroness Deech (CB)]

My Lords, I am one of those women who were underpaid. For years, I got £6 a week—I was very exercised over how to spend it—whereas many of my women friends who had never worked at all were getting much more than that. With expert advice, I was able to access the department and it was set right, but it seemed to me that the problem was how to access the department. Once it had the issue in hand it responded, but people need to know the email addresses and there need to be pamphlets in post offices. There need to be easy ways for older people to speak to someone in the department and get an answer when they write—without, of course, having to hold on to the phone for ages. Will the Minister ensure that that happens?

[Viscount Younger of Leckie (Con)]

Indeed, and it is very important that we engage much more closely with the customer base. Where underpayments are identified, the DWP will contact the individual to inform them of any changes to their state pension amount and of any arrears involved. There is now, I am pleased to say, a more direct route for those inquiring about underpaid state pension. Guidance on this, the House may not be surprised to hear, is on GOV.UK and went live in July last year.

[Baroness Sherlock (Lab)]

My Lords, these cases are very urgent for some people; 25p may be an issue for the over-80s, but in just January and February 14,500 over-80s were found to have been underpaid—out of a total of 46,000 underpayments. The worst affected were those who had been widowed, who were underpaid by, on average, £11,500. We all know how quickly the DWP will go after you if you get overpaid, so can the Minister assure us of two things? First, is priority being given to those who most need the money and who, frankly, may need it rather more urgently for reasons such as more advanced age? Secondly, the NAO suggested in its very damning report that the department assess all underpayments to see whether there is a systemic cause which might affect other cases. Is that now being done?

[Viscount Younger of Leckie (Con)]

Very much so; it is being done. I think I alluded to this earlier. Any systemic problem has to be looked at as a matter of urgency. On the other question the noble Baroness raised, I mentioned the number of extra people we have put on to this particular case. I reassure her and the House that the data shows that we have reviewed an average of more than 15,000 cases per month between November 2022 and February 2023, compared with an average of only 5,000 per month over the first 22 months of the exercise.

[Lord Sikka (Lab)]

My lords, it is estimated that between 20,000 and 25,000 pensioners die each year because of low income and the hard choices they have to make between heating and eating. Can the Minister explain whether any assessment has been made of the deaths and hardship caused by underpayment of state pension over the last 13 years?

[Viscount Younger of Leckie (Con)]

No, I do not have any figures to support the argument that the noble Lord is proffering. What I can say is that we very much take note of wanting to support the most vulnerable. We have increased benefits in line with the September 2022 consumer prices index of 10.1%, including around 12 million pensions.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock (Lab Co-op)]

My Lords, is the Minister aware that, due to their incompetence, the Scottish Government have underspent their budget in the last financial year by £2 billion, which could have been spent helping carers and others? Will the Minister confirm that this money will now go back to the Treasury and not be spent helping poor people in Scotland?

[Viscount Younger of Leckie (Con)]

Allow me to look into that and provide an answer to the noble Lord. I think it is normally the case that the money goes back to the Treasury but, without knowing here, I do not want to stick my neck out on it.

[Baroness Ritchie of Downpatrick (Lab)]

My Lords, could the Minister indicate what corrective action will be taken to address the needs of the WASPI women, who have been underpaid for many years and are not entitled to their pensions from the age of 60?

[Viscount Younger of Leckie (Con)]

I am aware, as we all are, of the WASPI issue. The noble Baroness will be aware of the judicial review against the PHSO. We are aware of it, but I am unable to comment because of the judicial review.

Carers: Financial Support

Viscount Younger of Leckie Excerpts

Tuesday 16th May 2023 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Pitkeathley]

To ask His Majesty’s Government whether they plan to review the financial support available to unpaid carers following new research by Carers UK and the University of Sheffield which found that they contribute £445 million daily to the economy in England and Wales.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Work and Pensions (Viscount Younger of Leckie) (Con)]

My Lords, the Government recognise the vital role played by millions of unpaid carers across the country. We are already providing them with record amounts of financial support through the benefits system, including nearly £3.5 billion per year to around 1 million carers through the carer’s allowance alone. Those unpaid carers in lower-income households could also receive an additional £2,200 per year through the universal credit carer element.

[Baroness Pitkeathley (Lab)]

My Lords, I was only asking for a review; it seems a modest enough request in view of the £445 million contributed every day by unpaid carers. May I ask the Minister something very specific which, if there should be a review, he would be able to consider? The earnings limit for carer’s allowance is not rising as quickly as the national living wage. The number of hours carers are allowed to work will reduce from 14 to 13 before they lose their entitlement to the benefit. This means that carers are very limited in their ability to undertake paid work and combine it with their caring, which many of them wish to do. Does the Minister agree that deterring carers from working is really not sensible, and that the earnings limit should be increased to a minimum of 21 hours at national living wage rates?

[Viscount Younger of Leckie (Con)]

I know the noble Baroness has much experience in this particular area. On the carer’s allowance, I can reassure her that we continue to review the limit and make changes where we feel they are warranted and affordable. The carer’s allowance has an earnings limit, which she alluded to, which permits carers to undertake some part-time work; it also recognises the benefits of staying in touch with the workplace, which we regard as important, including providing greater financial independence and social interaction. As the noble Baroness will know, it can be extremely lonely and very hard work being a carer, as the hours are often long and the work very demanding.

[Baroness Walmsley (LD)]

My Lords, a place in a local authority care home will cost a local authority a minimum of £800 a week, which is over £700 more than is paid to a carer who cares for more than 35 hours a week, as carer’s allowance is only £76.75. Does the Minister agree that the Government and local taxpayers are getting a very good deal on the backs of unpaid carers?

[Viscount Younger of Leckie (Con)]

We definitely want to applaud the huge number of unpaid carers who work in our society. Caring for a family member or friend, as we know, can be enormously hard work but it can also be incredibly rewarding. To pick up on the noble Baroness’s point, means testing comes into this and this can increase weekly income and act as a passport to other support, including help with fuel costs through schemes such as the warm home discount and cold weather payments, and more recently payments to help with increases in the cost of living.

[Lord Farmer (Con)]

My Lords, as an officer of the APPG on 22q—a genetic syndrome that is half as prevalent as Down’s syndrome, with similarly far-reaching effects—I know carers who are parents of disabled children who can suddenly find that they have to be in hospital with their child for several days. They also attend far more medical appointments than normal. Do the Government perceive a need to encourage and enable employers to show greater flexibility in these unavoidable circumstances, and how might they do that?

[Viscount Younger of Leckie (Con)]

My noble friend makes a very good point. As I said earlier, we are committed to supporting unpaid carers to balance the care they may give alongside work, if they are able to do so. Some caring responsibilities are extremely demanding. My noble friend may know that the Carer’s Leave Bill is currently going through Parliament. This will introduce a new leave entitlement as a right from day one to those being employed, available to all employees who are providing care to a dependant with a long-term care or support need.

[Baroness Andrews (Lab)]

My Lords, we have received the Government’s response to the report from the Adult Social Care Committee and we are grateful for it. Is the Minister aware that in that report we recommended that carer’s allowance be reviewed in the next year? We recommended that the threshold for the hours of caring be reduced so that people could access carer’s allowance more easily, and that the allowance be uprated in line with the national living wage. All those recommendations have been rejected. Can the noble Viscount tell me why?

[Viscount Younger of Leckie (Con)]

First, I wish the noble Baroness a very happy birthday. Moving on swiftly to her question, I very much note the points the report has produced; I read it over the weekend and it makes some important points. I said earlier how much we value the role of unpaid carers. Yes, the rate of carer’s allowance is £76.75 a week. The total caseload is 1.4 million and I think it very important indeed that we continue to review the role of carers and the carer’s allowance, but, as I mentioned earlier, there is a means-tested element here and top-ups are available for those in need.

[The Lord Bishop of Gloucester]

My Lords, in addition to the issue of financial support for unpaid adult carers, we must not forget the contribution of young carers, who provide invaluable support to their families. What are the Government doing to ensure financial support for respite support, as well as access to a young carer’s lead in their school or college, as is currently available in Gloucestershire?

[Viscount Younger of Leckie (Con)]

The right reverend Prelate makes a very good point, and that is certainly an element of what we are doing and looking at. As I said, the main point is that we very much recognise the importance of carers and their work. Indeed, Carers Week runs from 5 to 11 June this year. On respite care, the right reverend Prelate makes an important point.

[Baroness Wheatcroft (CB)]

My Lords, there are many young carers between 16 and 25 in full-time education—around 375,000—but they seem to get a particularly raw deal, in that they are not eligible for any state financial support and have to look to charities. Will the Minister take a look at their predicament?

[Viscount Younger of Leckie (Con)]

I am very aware that some carers are extremely young, and I say again that I recognise the role of unpaid carers. The carer’s allowance is not intended to be a replacement for a wage or a payment for caring services, so we cannot compare it to the national minimum wage or the national living wage, for example. The noble Baroness raises another important point that we should continue to look at.

[Baroness Sherlock (Lab)]

My Lords, universal credit is a replacement for a wage, and there are people on it who can work only part time because of the need to care for a loved one, and, in some cases, because they simply cannot get hold of formal social care any more —things are pretty tough at the moment. They are not automatically excluded from the requirement to look for full-time work while on universal credit, so what guidance is given to universal credit work coaches in those circumstances?

[Viscount Younger of Leckie (Con)]

The guidance is continually updated for them. The noble Baroness will be aware of the link between the carer’s allowance and the universal credit tapering system, so that, if tapering is involved, you receive 55p for every £1.

[Baroness Fraser of Craigmaddie (Con)]

My Lords, I am glad to hear that the Government want to support unpaid carers, but one of the problems is that they are invisible to all systems, whether that is health and care services, benefits or other government departments. So what are the Government doing to ensure that we identify carers who have this important role?

[Viscount Younger of Leckie (Con)]

Again, there is more to be done to highlight the enormous amount of tremendous work that carers do. We are working on this, particularly in tandem with our colleagues in DHSC. I have certainly noted this and will take it forward. If there is something that I can write to my noble friend with, I will do so.

[Lord Laming (CB)]

My Lords, the whole House will recognise that, at any time, the whole lifestyle of any of us could be changed by a dramatic illness of a close relative. As indicated, the position of unpaid carers is largely not recognised or sometimes ignored, so that, when they are concerned about their relative and get in touch with one of the agencies, they are often disregarded because they are not the patient, and their views are not sought, even though they are providing a huge amount of care. Can the noble Viscount assure us that everything is being done to improve the recognition of unpaid carers’ contribution?

[Viscount Younger of Leckie (Con)]

Absolutely, and this ties in with my noble friend’s question. I reassure both the noble Lord and my noble friend that we are improving the recognition, identification and involvement of unpaid carers, particularly in local areas. There are new duties in the Health and Care Act 2022 around involving carers, including in hospital discharge, and new guidance has been prepared for the integrated care strategies, as well as new SCIE guidance for commissioners on breaks for adult carers.

Pension Protection Fund and Occupational Pension Schemes (Levy Ceiling) (No. 2) Order 2023

Viscount Younger of Leckie Excerpts

Wednesday 26th April 2023 Grand Committee

[Baroness Sherlock (Lab)]

My Lords, I thank all noble Lords who have spoken, especially my noble friend Lord Davies of Brixton for giving us this opportunity to reflect on the role and operation of the Pension Protection Fund.

My noble friend Lady Drake was right to remind the Committee of the huge value of the PPF to the thousands of members of DB schemes—both those who benefit directly from the £1 billion-plus of compensation it pays out every year and those who are happily sailing in calm pension waters but benefit from the security of knowing that the lifeboat is there, should they find they need it. Certainly, every day is a school day. I have learned a certain amount of history today, for which I thank noble Lords who have spoken, including the noble Baroness, Lady Altmann, and my noble friends on this side. They reminded me that the PPF was created by the Labour Government to protect the hard-earned pension savings of workers. It is important that we never take it for granted and that we, in our time, do all we can to keep it sustainable.

The Pensions Act 2004 requires the DWP to make an annual order to increase the PPF levy ceiling in line with the growth in earnings. As my noble friend Lord Davies noted, this year we have had two orders, as the first draft omitted the relevant figures in favour of “X”s. I do not want to make life harder for whichever poor person found that they had done that by accident, but I have to note that it is not the first error in recent times that we have had in a DWP order. When I was a non-exec on boards, we were always told that if an error is reported, the question to ask is: is it systemic? Clearly, one error is not systemic, but this is not the first. Can the Minister tell the Committee whether he is confident that his department is sufficiently well resourced with the people whose job it is to draft legislation and make sure that it is checked before it goes out?

The levy ceiling was set in primary legislation to be uprated annually in line with the growth in average weekly earnings, the rationale being that this would allow the increases in the ceiling roughly to track the increases in the pension liabilities of DB schemes, which are, in turn, linked to members’ earnings. In its 30th report, the Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee asked whether the policy of annual increase by the growth in earnings is still producing a sensible outcome, or whether it is far outstripping actual usage. It highlighted the gap between the levy ceiling and the actual levy. As we have heard, in 2023-24, the levy will be 16% of the ceiling, compared with 33% in 2022-23 and 43% in 2021-22.

The answer provided to the committee in that 30th report was that

“PPF investment performance has consistently performed ahead of target and combined with the PPF’s levy collection and risk reduction strategies, has resulted in a reserve of £11.7 billion and assets of £39 billion (as of 31 March 2022)”—

as mentioned by my noble friend Lord Davies. It was this which enabled the drop in the levy. The recent PPF funding review concluded that

“the PPF’s financial position has significantly strengthened in recent years, driven principally by strong investment performance, and a changed risk profile. As a result, the PPF is making a step change in its approach and entering a new phase where the focus will shift from building to maintaining its financial resilience”.

As somebody who likes the Janet and John version, I think that means that it has been building up reserves steadily and feels that the time has come to build them up more slowly in future.

The challenge for the PPF is that it has to tack a course between levying enough for its likely needs in the year ahead while ensuring that it is still able to bring in enough additional revenue if it suddenly faces large claims or a significantly riskier environment. Since it can increase the levy by only 25% a year, the decision on the levy can never just be a short-term consideration with a 12-month horizon. Is the Minister confident that the PPF has landed in the sweet spot?

I am also interested to hear the answers to the questions raised by the noble Baroness, Lady Altmann, and my noble friend Lady Drake about the consideration that is being given by the department and the PPF as to whether there is a need for more flexibility in the way that the levy is set and constructed.

Clearly, if the PPF is deemed to have more reserves than it needs, it can do one of two things: reduce the levy or spend more. My noble friend Lord Davies has come down clearly on one side of that, namely that it should choose to spend more. He rightly pointed out that this is a time of very high inflation and, therefore, the impact of the 2.5% cap on indexing is being felt particularly acutely at the moment. Clearly, that has put pressures on all pensioners, including those who rely on PPF payouts. My noble friend’s proposal has attracted support in principle from the committee. The obvious question to the Minister is: has any modelling been done on the cost of removing or raising the cap and, if so, what can he share with us on that—what did it show?

My noble friend Lord Davies also raised two of the questions from the independent review of the PPF. Can the Minister tell me whether the Government have responded to that review? I could not find it, but that may just be because of my search skills. Perhaps he could let us know.

I add another question that had been raised. The costs of administering the PPF are borne by the PPF administration fund and amounted, I gather, to £13.3 million last year. The independent review recommended folding the administration levy into the general PPF levy. Did that proposal find favour?

I am interested to hear the Minister’s take on this delicate balance facing the PPF, especially as it matures. It has been suggested that is in a healthier position than ever, but also that, as more schemes prepare to move into buyouts, the environment could get riskier in future than it has been in the past. It is perhaps time for more of the workings to be made manifest so that there is more clarity for all stakeholders—pension schemes, savers and pensioners—as to the balance of decisions that are being taken. I look forward to hearing the Minister’s reply.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Work and Pensions (Viscount Younger of Leckie) (Con)]

My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Davies of Brixton, for providing this opportunity to discuss the Pension Protection Fund and Occupational Pension Schemes (Levy Ceiling) (No. 2) Order 2023. This order enables the board of the Pension Protection Fund to raise a pension protection levy that is sufficient to ensure the safe funding of the compensation it provides, while providing reassurance to business that the levy will not be set above a certain amount in any one year.

I thank all noble Lords who have spoken in this short debate. As ever, I am somewhat daunted by the level of expertise, bar none, in this Committee. A good number of questions have been raised and, as ever, I will endeavour to answer them all—mostly at the end of my remarks, just to manage expectations.

I emphasise the Government’s continued commitment to supporting pensioners and protecting their hard-earned retirement savings. Ensuring that those who have worked hard all their lives receive a retirement income that provides them with dignity and financial security is one of our core objectives, and so it should be. We recognise that recent increases in the cost of living have placed particular pressure on pensioners’ household budgets, so we are taking action to target support specifically at pensioners. Around 12 million pensioners in Great Britain will benefit from the 10.1% increase to their state pensions from this month, fulfilling the Government’s manifesto commitment to apply the triple lock. More than 8 million pensioner households across the UK will receive an additional £300 cost of living payment this winter. To aid the most vulnerable, the pension credit standard minimum guarantee has also been increased by 10.1%.

As the Committee will know, combating inflation is one of the Government’s top priorities. Forecasts indicate that inflation is still likely to fall sharply by the end of 2023, in line with the Prime Minister’s pledge to reduce it by half by the end of the year.

I will return to the Pension Protection Fund in a moment, but first I will take a step back to consider the wider context of the schemes it protects. I pay tribute to the noble Lord, Lord Davies, for all that he has done; I was interested, pleased and perhaps not surprised that he had such a hand in the naming and setting up of the PPF—I am not sure of the precise date—back in the 1990s. With around £1.7 trillion of assets over 5,000 schemes and supporting nearly 10 million members as of March 2022, the defined benefit sector is critical for the UK population.

Set against this backdrop, the PPF’s £39 billion in assets under management as of March 2022, including £11.7 billion in reserves, certainly seem proportionate to the scale of its task. As of March 2022, since its inception in 2005 the scheme has stepped in to protect close to 300,000 members who might otherwise have received a greatly reduced retirement income. The noble Baronesses, Lady Drake and Lady Sherlock, referred to the success of this.

Despite the strength of its financial position, the PPF continues to face risks, the biggest being future claims for compensation and increased longevity. It uses its stochastic modelling tool, the “long-term risk model”, to help determine the funding it requires to protect against these future risks. Like other major financial institutions, the PPF protects against risk by holding reserves. The size of its reserve should therefore provide reassurance not only to existing members of the PPF but to members of all eligible pension schemes.

The noble Lord, Lord Davies, asked about the Pension Protection Fund’s reserve of £11.7 billion and asked whether that could be shared with its members—I think that was the gist of his question. It enables the Pension Protection Fund to protect financial security for current and future members. As I said, despite the strength of its financial position, the PPF continues to face a number of risks, the biggest being future claims to compensation and increased longevity, so there is a balance that I am sure the noble Lord could tell me much about.

The compensation provided by the PPF makes it a critical partner in delivering on the Government’s objective of ensuring financial security for pensioners. The PPF provides a crucial safety net to members of eligible pension schemes who are at risk of losing their pensions because of the insolvency of their employer. This safety net could not be more important in these challenging times.

I reiterate, however, that the Pension Protection Fund is therefore a compensation scheme; I know that my noble friend Lady Altmann defined it as an insurance scheme, which is fair enough. As such, it seeks not to replicate the benefits of underfunded pension schemes but rather to ensure that members are compensated fairly and sustainably. A balance must be struck between the interests of those who receive compensation and the levy payers who fund it. It is only by striking this delicate balance, perhaps, that the long-term stability of the PPF can be ensured.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Drake (Lab)]

I appreciate that there is a lot out there, but there are three elements: the scope for raising the levy, the compensation levels and the resilience of the PPF over time. Clearly, there is a sort of inflection point for revisiting and managing that. It was just about understanding that and getting more transparency around it.

[Viscount Younger of Leckie (Con)]

Absolutely. That plays well into what I said in that I will reflect on what I and the noble Baroness have said, and there may well be a letter coming to add to the one that I will send to my noble friend.

I will address a couple more questions before I wind up finally. The noble Baroness, Lady Drake, and indeed the noble Baroness, Lady Sherlock, asked whether the PPF is right to build reserves at a slower pace than it has been doing. It is a fair question but that is, as the noble Baroness will expect me to say, very much a matter for the PPF board.

On whether there will be an update on the levy discussions, I may have alluded to this earlier—it was raised not only by the noble Baroness, Lady Drake, but by my noble friend Lady Altmann and indeed the noble Baroness, Lady Sherlock. I will certainly happily make inquiries, and that will be an addition to the letter which is growing bigger by the moment. There may be some other questions that I have not answered, but I will certainly look very closely with my team at Hansard.

To conclude, again I thank the noble Lord, Lord Davies, for providing us with this opportunity to discuss the UK’s flexible and robust regime for funding and protecting defined benefit pensions, which, as was mentioned, is an important subject. This regime has enabled most schemes to weather the severe economic downturns following the crash in 2007-08—the financial crisis, I should better call it—and the Covid pandemic, as well as the prolonged period of historically low interest rates. In fact, the aggregate scheme funding position on a Pension Protection Fund basis improved from 83.4% on 31 March 2012 to 113.1% on 31 March 2022 —an interesting statistic to reflect on. These improvements to scheme funding mean that fewer and fewer members of DB schemes will require the safety net of the PPF. That is of course good news for members, who are increasingly likely to receive their full pension entitlement. This is progress indeed but there is more to do, although of course we cannot eliminate all risk. When employers become insolvent, the PPF continues to stand by as a well-funded and responsibly managed safety net.

[Lord Davies of Brixton (Lab)]

I thank the Minister for his detailed and considered response to what I have certainly found a useful debate. I just need to say that I do not think that the issue will go away. As I suggested, the attrition of members’ benefits will continue, and pressure to do something will get stronger. It would be useful if a meeting could be organised—it is probably just as easy to do it directly with the PPF, but Ministers and officials might like to be involved in it as well, so I will write and suggest that. I thank the Minister again for his attention to this important topic.

Heritage Railways and Tramways (Voluntary Work) Bill [HL]

Viscount Younger of Leckie Excerpts

3rd reading
Friday 21st April 2023 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Sherlock (Lab)]

My Lords, I add our thanks to my noble friend Lord Faulkner, who has piloted the Bill. I regret that I could not find a relevant interest to confess at this point, but I commend those who have. I add my hope that Lady Forsyth has a forgiving nature when she comes to read Hansard.

Our heritage railways are a joy and a blessing to the nation, as well as a big contributor to the economy. It would certainly be a shame if children and young people were prevented engaging safely in voluntary activity down to legislation from a time when heritage railways were simply railways. In the earlier stages, the Government seemed confident that there is no legislative barrier. That is not completely accepted around the table, so I hope that the Minister is able to give some reassurance to my noble friend and that discussions are carrying on to make sure that this can happen. I am happy to wait to hear what the Minister has to say.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Work and Pensions (Viscount Younger of Leckie) (Con)]

My Lords, I am also grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Faulkner, for bringing this debate to the House for the fourth time, for which he is to be applauded. I agree with him that it is important to protect heritage railways for future generations.

Modern health and safety legislation—in particular the Health and Safety at Work etc. Act 1974 and relevant secondary legislation—does not prevent children and young people volunteering on heritage railways or tramways. The current legislative framework already allows for this to happen. However, it is important that such activities are carried out in a safe way with employers, organisers and those supervising the activities making sure that any risks are properly controlled.

The Government support volunteers and volunteering; to that extent, I echo the words of my noble friend Lord Forsyth. It can be a rewarding experience for young people, and it allows them to gain new skills and make a difference in their community. Volunteering is vital for the future sustainability of the heritage rail sector, with more than 22,000 people, 800 of them young people, giving their time to support heritage railway organisations across the country.

At Second Reading, my predecessor, my noble friend Lady Stedman-Scott, offered to bring officials from the Health and Safety Executive, the Office of Rail and Road, the Department for Digital, Culture, Media and Sport and the noble Lord, Lord Faulkner, together with the Heritage Railway Association to discuss how its guidance can be further strengthened. Unfortunately, unforeseen circumstances prevented this meeting happening, but I would very much like to make this offer again.

Under the 1974 Act, duty holders are required to control the risks they create from their operation. Although the Health and Safety Executive has the policy responsibility for the 1920 Act, in the case of heritage railways, the Office of Rail and Road is the regulator for health and safety legislation. Both regulators have confirmed that they would not enforce the 1920 Act solely to prevent young people volunteering on heritage railways. It has not been used in a prosecution since 2009 and, when it was, it was used alongside more modern health and safety legislation to prosecute in cases where young people were employed illegally in dangerous environments. In total, the 1920 Act has been enforced on eight occasions since 1998, and none of these prosecutions was against a heritage railway.

The law protecting children in the UK is a complex area, and this Bill would have implications not only on health and safety protections but on education legislation and local authority by-laws. To repeal or amend the 1920 Act may initially seem the best course of action; however, because of the links to other legislation, the process of making changes would be extensive. There is no evidence that this legislative change would make a difference to the number of young people volunteering, and therefore it is not proportionate to proceed with it.

I promised also to be relatively short, so I conclude by saying that the Bill seeks to allow children to gain valuable experiences volunteering on heritage railways and tramways, and the Government support this aim. However, we believe that the current legislative framework does just that. Nothing would be gained from a change to legislation when other, simpler and more effective options are available—in particular, working with the regulators to explore the types of activities and tasks that are proportionate for young volunteers.

At Second Reading, the noble Lord, Lord Faulkner, remained concerned about what would happen should something go wrong with a young person working as a volunteer, and he wanted stronger guarantees in relation to the 1920 Act. I want to reassure him that if such an incident occurred, both the Health and Safety Executive and the Office of Rail and Road have confirmed that there would be a full investigation, taking account of the risks that the young person was exposed to and how they were controlled. The existing framework is fair and effective, which is why, unfortunately, the Government oppose the Bill.

[Lord Faulkner of Worcester (Lab)]

My Lords, I express my warmest thanks to the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth, for his kind and extremely generous remarks, which are not entirely justified, I am sure. It is very kind of him to say all those nice things. I also thank my noble friend Lady Sherlock for her generous comments.

The response from the Minister is all right as far as it goes—but there is a “but”. I accept absolutely the assurance that the ORR and the Health and Safety Executive have given that they have no intention of using the 1920 Act to prosecute in the case of young people on heritage railways. But the point that needs to be considered is what happens if something goes wrong that forces them to take a different view and may cause the provisions of that Act to apply. I have had a letter this week from the CEO of the Heritage Railway Association, Steve Oates, who said,

“I know of some railways who are not convinced. If it’s unlawful, it’s unlawful and the risk of prosecution or refusal of insurance cover, however remote, remains”.

That is also the view of the former legal adviser to the Department for Transport, Geoffrey Claydon CB, who wrote to me on Wednesday. He said:

“The Government are relying on the fact that HSE and ORR have said that they would not prosecute for any infringement of the 1920 Act in relation to young persons. But this ignores the possibility of private prosecutions, prosecutions by local authorities and insurers refusing to meet any claims on the basis that the law has not been followed”.


My Bill removes that element of doubt, and I urge the House to pass it this morning and send it to the other place.

In the meantime, I will take up with great pleasure the offer of the meeting that the Minister outlined; I hope that we are able to come to a satisfactory conclusion there. For now, I beg to move that the Bill do now pass.

Pensions Dashboards (Prohibition of Indemnification) Bill

Viscount Younger of Leckie Excerpts

3rd reading
Friday 21st April 2023 Lords Chamber

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Work and Pensions (Viscount Younger of Leckie) (Con)]

My Lords, before we commence proceedings on the Bill, I am obliged to make a statement on legislative consent in relation to it.

The Bill has been drafted so as to make provision across the United Kingdom. As noble Lords will know, pensions policy is transferred to the Northern Ireland Assembly and the usual process would be for the Assembly to provide a legislative consent Motion for any provision relating to a transferred area. However, due to the continued absence of the Northern Ireland Assembly and Executive, a legislative consent Motion cannot be secured.

Historically, the Northern Ireland legislation in this area has mirrored that in Great Britain and, following engagement with the Northern Ireland Department for Communities, the Government’s position is that it is important that this legislation proceeds to apply in Northern Ireland in the absence of a legislative consent Motion. This will ensure the people of Northern Ireland can benefit from the Bill’s important protections.

Motion

Moved by

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Sherlock (Lab)]

My Lords, I congratulate the noble Lord, Lord Young of Cookham, on piloting the Bill through the House with his usual flair, and it is very nice that we can all be here to see it on its way. It is a narrowly focused Bill which simply addresses a lacuna in the original legislation, and we are happy to support it. I also thank the noble Viscount for giving us an assurance at Second Reading that before long, we can look forward to an update on the likely implementation of the pensions dashboards themselves. It remains of paramount importance that people can save for their retirement with confidence and with an understanding of all the implications of the choices they are making or that have been made on their behalf. We support the creation of a pensions dashboard to contribute to that goal, although we will continue to debate with Ministers choices about how it can best be done. For today, we are pleased to wish this Bill on its way.

[Viscount Younger of Leckie (Con)]

My Lords, I, too, am grateful to my noble friend Lord Young of Cookham for presenting his Bill to the House, and to my honourable friend in the other place, Mary Robinson, for her skilled stewardship of the Bill. It is a pleasure again to offer my support for the Bill on behalf of the Government. I, like my noble friend, also thank all noble Lords who were present for Second Reading for their interest in the Bill and for supporting it as it moved towards its final stage.

I committed to follow up on the topics relating to this Bill and questions about pensions dashboards more broadly that were raised by noble Lords during the previous debate. I have placed copies of letters I sent after Second Reading in the House Library, and they are also available on the Bill’s webpage—hopefully, noble Lords have had a look at them. I hope the letters sent have helped to address these queries, which included asking for an update on progress on the department’s state pension records correction exercise, the readiness of public service pension schemes to connect to dashboards, and whether penalties could be incurred for loading incorrect data to pensions dashboards. Queries were also raised more specifically about the penalties which could be imposed on trustees and managers of occupational pension schemes under the proposals in the Bill, and for compliance breaches under the pensions dashboards regulations.

I further addressed questions about the challenges faced by the pensions dashboards programme in delivering the digital architecture underpinning pensions dashboards. On this final point, I made clear to the House during Second Reading the importance of this Bill, and that it is needed irrespective of the delivery timeline for pensions dashboards. To be helpful to the noble Baroness, Lady Sherlock, I also pledged—and I stick to that pledge—to update noble Lords as soon as is reasonably possible, and an invitation will be forthcoming.

To reiterate why the Bill is required, it corrects a legislative gap which, left as it is, means that no provision would prohibit trustees or managers from reimbursing themselves using pension scheme assets to pay penalties in respect of breaches of any relevant pensions dashboards regulations. There was unanimous agreement among noble Lords at Second Reading that this would be unacceptable.

The proposals under this Bill seek to deter rogue actors from reimbursing themselves using the assets of pensions scheme members by allowing criminal proceedings to be brought against trustees or managers of occupational pension schemes if they are reimbursed and knew or had reasonable grounds to believe that they had been reimbursed as such. If a trustee or manager is found guilty of this offence, the Bill’s provisions allow for a maximum sentence of up to two years in prison, or a fine, or indeed both.

As I emphasised at Second Reading, the Bill does not place any new requirements on trustees or managers of occupational pension schemes or burden them with additional costs. It simply extends an existing prohibition in Section 256 of the Pensions Act 2004, which already applies to a number of areas of pensions legislation, to include pensions dashboards.

To conclude, the Bill rightly increases protection for consumers saving for their retirement. I do hope, therefore, that the whole House will join me in its support for my noble friend’s Bill and agree to its passage.

[Lord Young of Cookham (Con)]

My Lords, I am grateful to both Front-Benchers for their support and to my noble friend the Minister for addressing in correspondence some of the broader issues that were raised in a recent meeting on the pensions dashboard.