Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between John Bercow and Owen Smith

Wednesday 24th October 2018 Commons Chamber

[Mr Speaker]

It is always a pleasure to hear the dulcet tones of the hon. Gentleman, but I said “Owen” rather than “Nick”.

[Owen Smith (Pontypridd) (Lab)]

Long may it continue.

In the first spending period after Brexit, will Wales receive more money or less than it would have received under EU structural funds?

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between John Bercow and Owen Smith

Wednesday 15th November 2017 Commons Chamber

[Owen Smith (Pontypridd) (Lab)]

On a point of order, Mr Speaker.

[Mr Speaker]

Order. Just before I call the hon. Member for Pontypridd (Owen Smith), may I just have it confirmed—as has just been intimated to me—that his point of order flows specifically out of exchanges at Northern Ireland questions? Otherwise, points of order come after urgent questions and statements, and we would not want to change that good practice, would we? Does his point of order relate to, flow out of and connect with Northern Ireland questions?

[Owen Smith]

Entirely.

[Mr Speaker]

Oh—not just profoundly, but entirely! I am deeply obliged to the hon. Gentleman, as will be the House, I hope.

[Owen Smith]

Thank you for granting this point of order, Mr Speaker, which relates to an incredibly important issue that was raised in Northern Ireland questions. When I asked the Under-Secretary of State for Northern Ireland, the hon. Member for Norwich North (Chloe Smith) whether women in Northern Ireland who were appealing for exemption under the so-called rape clause that currently applies there might be liable to prosecution because of the way in which that measure intersects with the criminal law in Northern Ireland, I was astonished to hear the Minister say no. She gave a one-word answer saying clearly that such women would not be liable to prosecution, but I have a letter from the Director of Public Prosecutions in Northern Ireland that directly contradicts that. What can you do, Mr Speaker, to get Ministers back to the House to correct what I believe to have been a misleading statement?

[Mr Speaker]

Pursue. The hon. Gentleman is well familiar with the mechanisms available to Members in this House. He has effectively, through the device of a point of order, repeated a point that he made—I think probably in some consternation—to the Minister during Northern Ireland questions. If he is dissatisfied with the answer because he thinks that there is a clear conflict, and he wishes to pursue the matter, he can do so either by written questions or, if he judges the matter to be pressing, by the other device to bring the matter to the attention of the House, with which he will be well familiar—[Interruption.] The hon. Member for Glasgow Central (Alison Thewliss) is not hailing a taxi. I can see her perfectly well, and we will come to her. She need not worry. We are saving her up. If the hon. Gentleman so wishes, he can use that device.

Points of Order

Debate between John Bercow and Owen Smith

Monday 21st March 2016 Commons Chamber

[Owen Smith (Pontypridd) (Lab)]

On a point of order, Mr Speaker. Before the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions leaves the Chamber, may I point out that he said in his statement that the Government will not be seeking future savings from the welfare budget? However, Treasury sources were apparently briefing to The Sun newspaper during his statement that that is not what he means, and that he means that there are no “planned” increases in the cuts to the welfare budget in this Parliament. Can he tell us which it is?

[Mr Speaker]

The hon. Gentleman has raised his concern under the guise, or within the clothing, of an attempted point of order, but as he knows—his puckish grin merely testifies to his awareness of this—that is not a matter for the Chair. If he is beseeching the Secretary of State to come in on that point of order, he is entitled so to beseech. The Secretary of State can do so if he wishes, but he is under no obligation.

Universal Credit Work Allowance

Debate between John Bercow and Owen Smith

Wednesday 6th January 2016 Commons Chamber

[Owen Smith]

What I absolutely would not do is cut the incomes of 5.5 million working families, many of them in the hon. Lady’s constituency, by an average of £950. I would not take £1,600 from 2.6 million working families—[Interruption.]

[Mr Speaker]

Order. The hon. Gentleman’s mellifluous eloquence has to be interrupted for a moment for me to make this obvious point. Whatever their dissimilarities, the hon. Members for Elmet and Rothwell (Alec Shelbrooke) and for Birmingham, Yardley (Jess Phillips) have one thing in common: they are extremely excitable. They need to calm down a little bit, not least so that we can hear the flow of the shadow Secretary of State’s eloquence and the eloquence of his flow.

[Owen Smith]

I am extremely grateful, Mr Speaker.

Benefit Sanctions Regime (Entitlement to Automatic Hardship Payments)

Debate between John Bercow and Owen Smith

Tuesday 27th October 2015 Commons Chamber

[Philip Davies]

To try to get the hon. Gentleman to become a statesman may be beyond even you and your skills, Mr Speaker.

Given that the most vulnerable already have access to hardship payments from day one and that the sanctions regime in itself is a good thing, given that what the hon. Lady proposes goes way beyond the recommendations of the Oakley review and even way beyond the recommendations of the Select Committee, and given that people are already informed about the hardship payments throughout their claimant journey, her Bill is not only bad—if anyone adopted her strategy—but completely unnecessary.

I do not intend to deprive the hon. Lady of her day in the limelight by pressing the Bill to a Division, but I thought it worth while pointing out that many Members of the House and, more importantly, many people in the country, do not accept her criticisms of the sanctions regime for benefits.

Question put (Standing Order No. 23) and agreed to.

Ordered,

That Ms Tasmina Ahmed-Sheikh, Hannah Bardell, Mrs Sharon Hodgson, Caroline Lucas, Ms Margaret Ritchie, Liz Saville Roberts, Naz Shah, Dr Eilidh Whiteford and Corri Wilson present the Bill.

Ms Tasmina Ahmed-Sheikh accordingly presented the Bill.

Bill read the First time; to be read a Second time on Friday 4 December, and to be printed (Bill 85).

Welfare Reform and Work Bill (Programme No. 3)

Ordered,

That the Order of 20 July 2015 (Welfare Reform and Work Bill (Programme)) be varied as follows:

(1) Paragraphs (4) and (5) of the Order shall be omitted.

(2) Proceedings on Consideration shall be taken in the order shown in the first column of the following Table.

(3) The proceedings shall (so far as not previously concluded) be brought to a conclusion at the times specified in the second column of the Table.

[Owen Smith (Pontypridd) (Lab)]

rose—

[Mr Speaker]

Did the hon. Gentleman wish to contribute on this matter?

[Owen Smith]

On new clause 1, Mr Speaker.

[Mr Speaker]

No. This is the programme motion. It is a good job the hon. Gentleman did not want to contribute, because he cannot—because it has been carried and we are moving on—but he will get his opportunity.

[Owen Smith]

I am ever eager.

[Mr Speaker]

Indeed.

Welfare Reform and Work Bill

Debate between John Bercow and Owen Smith

Tuesday 27th October 2015 Commons Chamber

[Owen Smith (Pontypridd) (Lab)]

I beg to move, That the clause be read a Second time.

[Mr Speaker]

With this it will be convenient to discuss the following:

New clause 8—Tax credit reforms—

“The measures in this Bill and (Income Thresholds and Determination of Rates) (Amendment) Regulations 2015 relating to the award of tax credits and the relevant entitlement within Universal Credit shall not take effect until the Secretary of State has implemented a scheme for full transitional protection for a minimum of three years for all families and individuals currently receiving tax credits before 5 April 2016, such transitional protection to be renewable after three years with parliamentary approval.”

Amendment 49, in clause 9, page 12, line 2, leave out from “relevant sums” to end of subsection and insert

“is to increase in line with the consumer price index.”

Amendment 50, page 12, line 6, leave out from “child benefit” to end of subsection and insert

“are to increase in line with the consumer price index.”

Amendment 51, page 12, line 8, leave out subsections (3) and (4).

Amendment 52, in clause 10, page 12, line 36, leave out from “relevant amounts” to end of subsection and insert

“is to increase in line with the consumer price index.”

Amendment 53, page 13, line 1, leave out clause 11.

Amendment 54, in clause 11, page 13, line 8, leave out “2017” and insert “2022”.

Amendment 55, page 13, line 31, leave out clause 12.

[Owen Smith]

I rise for a second time to speak to new clause 1 in my name and those of my hon. Friends the shadow Chancellor, the shadow Chief Secretary to the Treasury and my shadow Work and Pensions team. The new clause is very straightforward. It would repeal the Tax Credits (Income Thresholds and Determination of Rates) (Amendment) Regulations 2015.

It is a shame that the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions is not in the Chamber to debate this important measure. I do not know what else he is doing, but he has been noticeable by his absence from the debate on tax credits in recent days. I have been to 25 studios and other arenas to debate the issue. I have looked high and low for any Minister of any stripe with whom to discuss it, and they have been noticeable by their absence. I am therefore delighted that there are three Ministers of the Crown on the Front Bench to contest the issue. That is a first in recent weeks, and I am very pleased to have this opportunity.

It is a shame that the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions is not in the Chamber. If he was here, I would have started by reminding him of something he has said in the House—indeed, he has said it on several occasions over the years—which is that he is a great believer in second chances. He has said that he believes that Britain should be

“a nation of the second chance”.

Opposition Members entirely agree with the Secretary of State. Indeed, that is one of the very few things on which I do agree with him. We should believe in second chances. I therefore say to Ministers and to the House that we have a second chance today. We have a second chance following yesterday’s vote in the House of Lords, which has called on this House to think again. In doing so, I think that the other place spoke not just for itself but for the entire country. It has asked us to think again and to give a second chance to repeal tax credits regulations that will hit so many people across this country.

In touring the studios in recent days, I have quite often heard the suggestion that the vote in the other place yesterday presaged a constitutional crisis in this country. In truth, what it did was to stop a financial crisis for the 3 million families who will be hit by the tax credits regulations when the changes are implemented next year. The message to us from the other place is quite simply to pause: for Ministers to pause before they lick the envelopes of the 3 million letters that they intend to post out at Christmas to tell such families across the country to anticipate a 10% reduction in their incomes, which is an average reduction of £1,300 for each of those 3 million working families. If the Government proposed to cut the salaries of Members of the House by 10%, there would be uproar on the Government Benches—indeed, on all Benches. Working families in this country, and people who are doing difficult low and middle-income jobs—there are 3 million of them, or more—are being told that next year they will face a 10% cut to their incomes at a stroke of a pen. It is not adequate.

Points of Order

Debate between John Bercow and Owen Smith

Thursday 22nd October 2015 Commons Chamber

[Mr Speaker]

I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for his point of order, and for his courtesy in giving me notice of it. On the basis of what he has told me in writing, I have to tell him that it is not for me to conclude whether there has been a change of policy or not. I leave others to make that judgment. However, it is a long-established principle in this place that if a Minister has a policy announcement to make, that announcement should first be made to the House. The Minister concerned will therefore have to consider whether he or she believes that a change is involved, and to draw the appropriate conclusions. The hon. Gentleman is a sufficiently adroit and dextrous Member of the House to be well aware, if he is dissatisfied with the development of events in the coming days, of the toolkit available to Members to draw the urgent attention of the House to a matter that they believe warrants its consideration.

[Owen Smith (Pontypridd) (Lab)]

On a point of order, Mr Speaker. May I ask for your guidance on how we might secure an opportunity for the House to question the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions about the desperately inadequate response to the Work and Pensions Select Committee report on the extraordinarily important issue of benefit sanctions? The response has been snuck out this morning in a written statement, it is four months late, and it does not appear to address any of the principal recommendations. In particular, it does not address the recommendation on an independent review into the matter of those people who have died while subject to benefit sanctions. That is an extraordinarily shoddy way for the Government to behave. May I also ask for guidance on whether the Select Committee might, under the new Back-Bench business procedures, seek time to debate the issue and question the Secretary of State on why he has snuck out this response and why it is so poor?

[Mr Speaker]

Certainly, Backbench Business Committee debates can take place, and the hon. Gentleman requires no encouragement from me on that front. More widely, I note that he is a most assiduous member of the shadow Cabinet and that he is somewhat of a highbrow academic type. He will therefore know perfectly well what the opportunities are to air matters in the House. I have a hunch that he simply wanted a prime-time opportunity to tweak the Government’s tail. I know that he would not think it right to abuse his privileges as a Member on the Front Bench, however. These matters can be aired on a subsequent occasion, but time is pressing and we will leave it there for today.

Points of Order

Debate between John Bercow and Owen Smith

Wednesday 17th July 2013 Commons Chamber

[Mr Speaker]

Order. We are not going to have a protracted exchange on this matter. I think that people are perfectly capable of making their own assessment—those in the House and outside it. The hon. Member for Caerphilly (Wayne David) made a point about a letter from individuals who did not receive a direct reply. The Leader of the House has made the point that there was a letter from an hon. Member to which the Prime Minister replied. We really do not have to go into the interstices of this, and it would be a disservice to the House to do so when we have pressing demands on our time, and, before we even reach those other matters, more points of order. [Interruption.] I think that I have given a very fair hearing to both points of view on this matter, and I am grateful to participants.

[Owen Smith (Pontypridd) (Lab)]

On a point of order, Mr Speaker. You will be aware that the Chief Secretary to the Treasury has in the past hour published the Government’s initial response to the Silk commission on the devolution of taxation to Wales, but you may not be aware that it was leaked to the media at about 7 o’clock this morning and appeared on the BBC website. I know, Mr Speaker, that you take very seriously the role of Ministers to inform the House first, so could you please offer some guidance on the appropriateness of the response and, given that the former Secretary of State for Wales, the right hon. Member for Chesham and Amersham (Mrs Gillan), had committed to a full debate about these important matters on the Floor of the House, on whether it is appropriate that the Government should issue a scanty, one-page response on the penultimate day of this term?

[Mr Speaker]

I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for that point of order, to which I respond as follows. First, if material has been leaked to the media in the way he suggests, that is entirely inappropriate and I deprecate it in the strongest possible terms. Important announcements should be made first to the House and it is a discourtesy to the House of Commons if people have pursued alternative methods.

Secondly, as to the question of a prior commitment to there being a debate on the Floor of the House, that is not a matter for the Chair. I note the moral point that the hon. Gentleman is making in a sense. He may well seek to make it again in business questions tomorrow or, if for some reason he will not be available to do so, it will not be beyond his wit to ensure that the point is aired. It will be a question of airing it for a second time, given that he has done so for the first this afternoon.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between John Bercow and Owen Smith

Wednesday 18th January 2012 Commons Chamber

[Mr Speaker]

Order. The House must come to order. We are discussing matters of intense interest, especially to the people of Wales.

[Owen Smith (Pontypridd) (Lab)]

8. What assessment she has made of the likely change in levels of public sector employment in Wales in the period up to 2017.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between John Bercow and Owen Smith

Wednesday 29th June 2011 Commons Chamber

[Owen Smith (Pontypridd) (Lab)]

Talking of trains, the Minister will be aware that the Secretary of State has offered to resign over high-speed rail going through her constituency. The people of Wales are grateful for the offer, but we wonder whether the Minister might ask her when the precise date will be to trigger it. As we are a generous people, we would very much like to give her a good send-off—

[Mr Speaker]

Order. The hon. Gentleman’s question must relate to the subject matter on the Order Paper, not to a question that we have not reached—though we might—so I am sure that he will want to refer to the electrification of Great Western main line to Swansea and the Secretary of State’s stance on that matter.

[Owen Smith]

Will the Minister ask the Secretary of State whether she would be happy to resign over the failure to deliver the electrification of the railway to Swansea and the valleys, as she is happy to resign over matters in her constituency?

Points of Order

Debate between John Bercow and Owen Smith

Tuesday 12th October 2010 Commons Chamber

[Mr Speaker]

I am grateful to the hon. Lady for her point of order. I did not have previous notice of it, although I make no complaint about that—she is entirely within her rights. The safest thing for me to say is that I will look into the matter and revert to her and, if necessary, the House when I have completed my inquiries.

[Owen Smith (Pontypridd) (Lab)]

On a point of order, Mr Speaker. May I draw your attention to a very disappointing letter that Welsh Members received this week from the Secretary of State for Wales refusing our request to hold a Welsh Grand Committee on the constitutional implications for Wales of the Parliamentary Voting System and Constituencies Bill? Will you please make representations to the Secretary of State to ensure that she understands how strongly Welsh Members feel about this critical issue?

[Mr Speaker]

I am not sure that it is for me to make representations, as the hon. Gentleman invites me to do. However, he has put his concern—indeed, his very clear dissatisfaction—on the record. I trust that it will have been heard, but whether that is the end of the matter remains to be seen. I think that we will leave it there for the time being, but I am grateful to him.

Finance Bill

Debate between John Bercow and Owen Smith

Tuesday 6th July 2010 Commons Chamber

[Mr Speaker]

Order. I would not want the hon. Member for Pontypridd (Owen Smith), who has made an auspicious start, to stray from the path of virtue. May I just say to him that it is a good rule of thumb to listen with great interest and enthusiasm to the hon. Member for Ealing North (Stephen Pound), but to recognise that sometimes his interventions have absolutely nothing to do with the matter under discussion?

[Owen Smith]

In this instance, I beg to differ. My hon. Friend’s intervention absolutely speaks to the case, because the philosophical underpinnings of what we hear from Government Members is that somehow we have a great dichotomy in our economy. The public sector is bad, of course—non-jobs, as I heard one Local Government Minister describe them recently. Well, many people in my constituency and elsewhere across the country rely on such jobs to feed their families. Private sector is, of course, good, and the thing that we all want to encourage. The construction industry is a wonderful example of the symbiosis between the two parts of our economy. If you cut one the other will bleed, and we will see £50 billion cut from the construction industry. The construction industry accounts for 10% of GDP, and that £50 billion will have a big impact right across the economy. So I think that private and public are linked.

The theory that we are testing now is the one that we have allegedly seen work in Canada and Sweden, whereby the Government make cuts and the economy flourishes. In those countries we saw a long-term reduction in spending on public sector vital services.

The other key lesson from those other examples of deficit reductions is that the conditions need to be right. Investor and consumer confidence have to be growing, and there has to be evidence of underemployed private sector capital. Exporters must be ready to grow and foreign markets must be ready to buy. Get it wrong and cut too deep when the conditions are unfavourable, and we have on our hands not a success story, but depression and bankruptcy. The historical examples of such failed experiments form a long and ignoble list, and Government Members would do well to read the history books and learn from them.

[Stephen Pound]

On that exact point about the Canadian experiment, does my hon. Friend agree that the conditions that prevailed in Canada—a massively economically expanding neighbour, in the same free trade association, to the south—are not remotely met here. Any comparison between this country and Canada, or even the Swedish model, are specious and possibly even mendacious.

[Hon. Members]

He has nothing to say.

[Owen Smith]

I have plenty to say. [Interruption.]

[Mr Speaker]

Order. I have set the hon. Gentleman a bit of a test, and I want to hear him.

[Owen Smith]

I welcome your guidance, Mr Speaker. Many Labour Members have tried to say this key thing today, but I will try to encapsulate it. There are various items and taxation measures listed in the Bill.

[Owen Smith]

I thank my hon. Friend for that intervention. He is entirely correct that my Pontypridd constituency will be badly affected—[Interruption.] Sorry, I cannot make out the mumblings coming from those on the Government Benches. Equally, however, if the growth projections from the OBR and the Treasury leak were likely to offset the impact of those VAT increases, and if people were more likely to be in work in my constituency as a result of the measures in the Bill and the Budget more generally, I would be less concerned about the VAT rises.

Some specific comments have been made about the VAT rises and other measures in the Bill. Only this week, 125 chief finance officers of some of Britain’s biggest companies reported that their confidence in growth was at a 12-month low, with two thirds of them warning explicitly that the measures in the Bill would damage their companies and risk a double dip recession—hardly creating the conditions for them to employ more people. In manufacturing, Deloitte’s global manufacturing competitiveness index also anticipates decline, and in the service sector, the purchasing managers index—an established barometer of health in that sector, as the right hon. Member for Uxbridge and South Ruislip (Mr Randall) will know—reported last month the largest drop in business confidence in the last 14 years of its history.

Where are we going to grow, and how are we going to export? Government Members have cited other parts of the world where we should look for our examples. The US has sometimes been mentioned, and it was an engine of growth in the last century, but the statistics there offer us no comfort, with non-farm payroll reporting last week just 83,000 private sector jobs created. That is important because the Government expect us to believe that through the measures in the Finance Bill they will create 2.5 million jobs in the five-year period following the Budget. I have been researching that important and bold claim, and I received an answer from the House of Commons Library suggesting that only once in any five-year period since 1970 has the British economy created more than 2.5 million private sector jobs, the period in question being 1980-85. That was a statistical anomaly, however—the result of wholesale privatisation. Perhaps that points us to a secret or hidden agenda in the Government’s plans—another major round of privatisations.

My suspicions about that may be shared by someone who was, until recently, one of the Government’s allies— Sir Alan Budd, formerly of the Office for Budget Responsibility. I have no idea whether his hasty exit from the OBR is prompted by unhappiness about the new office perhaps having its integrity compromised, but I point Members to an interview that he gave a couple of years ago, which is of relevance to the Bill. He was asked whether he felt any discomfort when he was advising the Thatcher Government that perhaps some of the decisions he was making as an economist—[Interruption.]

[Mr Speaker]

Order. I am sorry to have to interrupt the hon. Gentleman. I know that the hour is relatively late—not exceptionally late, but relatively so—but far too many private conversations are taking place in the Chamber, which is very discourteous to the Member addressing the House. If people do not want to listen to the speeches—I address this to all Members—they are under absolutely no obligation whatever to stay in the Chamber, and we will manage without them. But if they are going to stay in the Chamber, they will show some basic courtesy and respect.

[Owen Smith]

Thank you, Mr Speaker.