20 Years of Devolution

Debate between John Bercow and Tommy Sheppard

Thursday 11th July 2019 Commons Chamber

[Tommy Sheppard (Edinburgh East) (SNP)]

It is a pleasure, as ever, to follow the hon. Member for Coatbridge, Chryston and Bellshill (Hugh Gaffney).

I want to look forward in this debate, but to do that I first have to look backwards. The Act of Union of 1707 gave protection to many aspects of Scottish life. In our churches, classrooms and courts, things were preserved. That aside, that Act of Union led to the creation of a single unitary state with a centralised government apparatus. It was not a federation or a partnership or even, in the proper sense, a union at all, but the creation of a single polity into which Scotland was subsumed. That represents a central weakness and fragility of the United Kingdom, which has been exposed in the time since. Everything that has transpired in this debate about devolution and decentralisation should be seen in the context of the United Kingdom’s imperfections and the ability to compensate for them to enable the state to represent the aspirations and needs of the people in Scotland.

That did not matter so much in the early days, but government expanded rapidly throughout the 19th century, so that by the end of the century there was a demand for decentralisation. In 1885 we saw the creation of the Scottish Office and the position of Secretary of State for Scotland, but not until the 20th century did the demand arise for political decentralisation, devolution and constitutional change. The home rule movement at the beginning of the 20th century was widely reflected in Scotland, leading in 1913, more than 100 years ago, to the passing through this House of the Government of Scotland Bill, in which some elements of home rule for Scotland were embodied.

That legislation was not enacted because of the advent of the first world war, and economic disruption and a further world war meant that the debate was not re-joined until the 1950s. Then we were in a completely new world. The old order had changed utterly. Empires were disintegrating and almost every couple of months a new nation state was formed somewhere on the globe, such that the demands of Scottish nationalism—the demands for Scottish self-government—were not cast in terms of the past or romantic notions of pre-Union days, but were a contemporary proposition very much in touch with the modern world. That was typified in the 1967 Hamilton by-election, when Winnie Ewing said:

“Stop the world, Scotland wants to get on”.

The 50 years since have seen a series of reports, from Kilbrandon and Smith, and a series of Bills, which have all tried to dissipate and placate the demands for self-government from the people of Scotland. The central paradox is that despite all that has happened, that placation does not seem to have worked. I can understand why Unionists must be frustrated. The old dictum of Enoch Powell—that power devolved is power retained— does not appear to hold. Unionists must be tearing their hair out, thinking, “What more do we have to do for these rebellious Scots to be satisfied?” The Scottish social attitudes survey shows that about 8% to 10% of people think that there should be no Scottish Parliament at all, yet once we discount that small minority, a clear majority of the remainder believe that the Scottish Parliament should be independent rather than part of the constitutional arrangements of the United Kingdom.

Why has that happened? I think it has happened for two reasons. The first is that devolution has been a resounding success. It has led to perceptible benefits for the people of Scotland and changes in how lives are lived that people really appreciate. Other Members from across the Chamber have talked about the achievements of the Scottish Parliament and Scottish Government, so I will not repeat them. However, I want to make it clear that I do not regard those achievements as the preserve of any one political party. I am proud of the last 12 years of the SNP Scottish Government, but I acknowledge fully the progress made by the Labour and Liberal Democrat coalition in the first two terms of the Scottish Parliament. However, many people are now open to the idea that if some devolution can make positive changes to their lives, why not just devolve everything and take all the powers that we need to run our affairs in Scotland?

The second reason why the demand for self-government has not been dissipated is that the exercise of power throws into sharp relief the powers that we do not have. This is now a raging argument in Scotland. People say that there are things that could be made better, but we do not have the competence and capacity to do it. To give a few brief examples, we want to reduce carbon emissions in Scotland. The Scottish Government are now committed to having an all-electric road system, with charging points throughout the entire country, but are powerless to shift the transition to electric vehicles because they have no control over vehicle excise duty. We might want to give incentives to small businesses in Scotland and start-ups in key sectors of the economy, but we have no power at all over corporate taxation. From drugs to broadcasting, food standards to employment law, there are many aspects of life that could be improved, but we do not have the powers to improve them.

Now, that adumbration is not by itself a compelling argument for independence, because we could respond to that lack of competence with further devolution. However, it is a mystery to me why many proponents of devolution, who in many ways brought us to this point, now seem to think that it is time to pull up the drawbridge—to say that devolution is complete, that the process is over and that nothing can possibly be added to it. They therefore vote against every amendment that we table to legislation to try to increase the powers of the Scottish Parliament and Scottish Government. That obstinacy and refusal to see devolution as a process that is still continuing is fuelling the appetite for independence, because people wonder whether that is the only way to take these powers to ourselves.

When we talk about the devolution of powers, there is another role for the state to play: to represent the character and intention of the people who live within its boundaries. In that respect, independence provides an answer that devolution cannot. There are many, many people in Scotland now—more every day—who question whether the British state is able to articulate their views and their character, either in this country or abroad. That change has been turbo-charged by Brexit and the growth of right-wing English nationalism, so that many more people than before are now open to the prospect of Scottish independence.

There is much more that I want to say, Mr Speaker, but I appreciate that you want us to be brief. Let me finish with this point. It will be for history to judge whether devolution has succeeded in sustaining the British state and the United Kingdom as a constitutional set of arrangements by trying to remove its imperfections, or whether, in fact, it will be seen in history as a step along the way to full self-government. We have to wait and see what the outcome is. The important thing is that that decision is not a matter for me or for you, Mr Speaker. It is a decision for the people who live in Scotland to take. My party’s pledge to the people of Scotland is that we will take on all comers and meet all resistance in order to allow the people of Scotland to make that decision. I believe they will get the opportunity to do that in a very short space of time.

[Mr Speaker]

Two years to the day since the delivery of his maiden speech and making his first appearance at the Dispatch Box, I call the hon. Member for Glasgow North East (Mr Sweeney).

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between John Bercow and Tommy Sheppard

Thursday 23rd May 2019 Commons Chamber

[Mr Speaker]

I asked for that.

[Tommy Sheppard (Edinburgh East) (SNP)]

7. What steps he plans to take in response to the consultation on society lottery reform.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between John Bercow and Tommy Sheppard

Wednesday 6th March 2019 Commons Chamber

[Mr Speaker]

Order. Just before I call the hon. Member for Edinburgh East (Tommy Sheppard), I hope that the whole House will wish to join me in congratulating him on a very special birthday today. I cannot believe that he is the age that I have been advised he is, but I suppose all things are possible. He seems in very good nick to me.

[Tommy Sheppard]

Thank you, Mr Speaker. Let me assure you that, contrary to popular belief, my political conviction has not been moderated or mellowed by the passing of the years. The latest Northern Ireland budget included £16.5 million for the Police Service of Northern Ireland to prepare for Brexit. Will the Secretary of State tell us how much of that money is being allocated to the policing of border infrastructure, either at the border itself or some distance away from it?

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between John Bercow and Tommy Sheppard

Wednesday 28th November 2018 Commons Chamber

[Mr Speaker]

Order. We have four Front-Bench supplementary questions and we are pressed for time, so they need to be brief.

[Tommy Sheppard (Edinburgh East) (SNP)]

Mr Speaker,

“We could not support any deal that…leads to Northern Ireland having a different relationship with the EU than the rest of the UK”.

Those are the words of the Secretary of State for Scotland. I put it to him that the backstop provides exactly that in the withdrawal agreement. Given that, how can he justify remaining in the Cabinet?

Sewel Convention

Debate between John Bercow and Tommy Sheppard

Monday 18th June 2018 Commons Chamber

[Tommy Sheppard]

That is absolutely the case.

I say to the right hon. Gentleman that I do believe in devolution. I was a member of the Scottish constitutional convention that drew up the proposals, but I, like many people involved at that time, also respect the right of the Scottish people to become a self-governing nation if they so wish. It is disingenuous to say that, just because we support independence, that means that we are not genuine in our desire to protect devolution.

Mr Speaker, I will take your admonishment and I will finish there, even though I have so much more to say.

[Mr Speaker]

I am sure you do. It was not admonition; I just want to accommodate colleagues.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between John Bercow and Tommy Sheppard

Wednesday 7th March 2018 Commons Chamber

[Mr Speaker]

I call Lesley Laird.

[Tommy Sheppard]

rose—

[Mr Speaker]

Order. Was the hon. Gentleman planning to come in again? He has had one question.

[Tommy Sheppard]

I thought I had two.

[Mr Speaker]

There was no indication that the hon. Gentleman was seeking two. In an hour-long session, yes, but not otherwise. I do not know why the hon. Gentleman’s brow is furrowed; he has got what was his entitlement and has nothing about which to complain, so he can sit down and we are most grateful to him for doing so.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Speaker]

Good communication is very important in these matters. My office was notified of the intention of the hon. Member for Edinburgh East (Tommy Sheppard) to ask a question, which he has asked. If he wants to ask a second, so be it, but he should not be flailing and gesticulating as though he has been the subject of some sort of adverse treatment, because he has not. If he wants to get up and blurt out a second question, he is most welcome to do so. Let’s hear from the fellow. Come on!

[Tommy Sheppard]

Thank you, Mr Speaker—I did want to ask the Secretary of State a second question. He has previously said that the most important thing about changes to the withdrawal Bill is that they should command the support of all sides. May I ask him: is that still his policy, and does he believe that any framework arrangements should require the consent of the Scottish Parliament if it changes its operations?

[David Mundell]

I have set out clearly that, in the process of leaving the EU, I want to ensure that the Scottish Parliament has more powers and responsibilities than it does today. I also want to ensure that we have an arrangement in place to allow us to agree frameworks as we move forward, and that frameworks, as I have previously said, should not be imposed.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between John Bercow and Tommy Sheppard

Wednesday 6th December 2017 Commons Chamber

[Mr Speaker]

I hope that the hon. Gentleman’s second question is shorter.

[Tommy Sheppard]

May I ask the Secretary of State when that will happen?

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between John Bercow and Tommy Sheppard

Wednesday 25th October 2017 Commons Chamber

[Tommy Sheppard (Edinburgh East) (SNP)]

Four times the Secretary of State has been asked to name a single power that will be devolved to the Scottish Parliament, and four times he has declined to answer. I see little point in asking him a fifth time, but let me ask him this: when will the Government publish a schedule setting out which powers will be devolved to the Scottish Parliament and which will not? [Interruption.]

[Mr Speaker]

Order. The hon. Member for Aberavon (Stephen Kinnock) really should not walk across the line of sight.

European Union (Withdrawal) Bill

Debate between John Bercow and Tommy Sheppard

2nd reading: House of Commons
Monday 11th September 2017 Commons Chamber

[Mr Speaker]

Order. I can do no such thing, but the hon. Member for Edinburgh East (Tommy Sheppard) might be able to do so.

[Tommy Sheppard]

I find it incredible—Members on the Government Benches have had the answer to this question on three occasions. The point is that there is an opportunity in this place, in this month, in this debate to transfer powers from Brussels to Holyrood, and it is not being taken. Government Members invite us to trust them, but I fear that we cannot do so; if we could, they would have made clear their intention in the Bill. That is one reason why I will vote to decline giving this Bill a Second Reading tonight.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between John Bercow and Tommy Sheppard

Wednesday 22nd March 2017 Commons Chamber

[Mr Speaker]

Mrs Sharon Hodgson. Not here.

[Tommy Sheppard (Edinburgh East) (SNP)]

The national insurance registration process is one way to increase electoral registration and therefore democratic participation, but there are others, including education, auto-enrolment—as my hon. Friend the Member for Midlothian (Owen Thompson) suggested—and, of course, online voting. When previously I pressed the Cabinet Office on this matter, it said there would be a plan in the spring to widen democratic participation. Spring is here. Where is the plan?

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between John Bercow and Tommy Sheppard

Wednesday 22nd February 2017 Commons Chamber

[Tommy Sheppard (Edinburgh East) (SNP)]

T4. On Sunday, the Israeli military authorities issued 40 demolition notices on the Bedouin village of Khan al-Ahmar in the occupied Area C of the west bank. If this happens tomorrow, it will mark a dramatic escalation of the demolitions and will compromise DFID’s actions in the region. Can I ask the Government to call on the Israeli authorities to cease—

[Mr Speaker]

Order. We are deeply grateful.

Points of Order

Debate between John Bercow and Tommy Sheppard

1st reading: House of Commons
Monday 16th January 2017 Commons Chamber

[Mr Speaker]

The answer is that I have received no indication of an intention for a Government Minister to make a statement on that matter. I have received notification of other intended statements for the coming days, but that is not among their number.

[Tommy Sheppard (Edinburgh East) (SNP)]

On a point of order, Mr Speaker. Last Tuesday at Foreign and Commonwealth Office questions, the Foreign Secretary was asked whether the UK would be participating in yesterday’s summit in Paris on the Israeli-Palestine peace situation. He told us that we would be participating and would “reinforce our message”, yet we read in press reports today that, alone among the western nations, the UK had no Minister present, and only a civil servant was sent to observe without the authority to sign the final communiqué. Have you been given notice that the Foreign Secretary intends to make a statement on the summit, and if not, what can Members do to compel the Foreign Secretary to divulge the full intentions of his Department when answering questions?

[Mr Speaker]

In the short time—approximately 20 months, I think—for which I have known the hon. Gentleman, I have come to realise what a persistent fellow he is. In response to the last part of his observations—about what can be done, and what facilities or recourses are open to him—let me say that the hon. Gentleman is familiar with the concept of the written question and, I think, with the location of the Table Office, in which he can submit such questions. Knowing the hon. Gentleman, I rather suspect that he will keep raising the matter.

I am, of course, grateful to the hon. Gentleman for giving me notice of his intention to raise this matter. He has registered it with force, and what he has said will have been heard on the Treasury Bench. If the Foreign Secretary feels that inadvertently the House has been misled—it is not immediately clear to me that the words were inaccurate; it may be that there has been a change of mind, which is not without precedent in our proceedings—no doubt he will take steps to correct the record. Meanwhile, the hon. Gentleman can go about his business with an additional glint in his eye and spring in his step in the knowledge that he has put his point forcefully on the record.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between John Bercow and Tommy Sheppard

Wednesday 2nd November 2016 Commons Chamber

[Tommy Sheppard (Edinburgh East) (SNP)]

I think that—[Interruption.]

[Mr Speaker]

Order. I can scarcely hear the hon. Gentleman. He must be heard.

[Tommy Sheppard]

Thank you, Mr Speaker. I think that people watching this debate will be terrified by the complacency of this Government. Does the Minister not realise that the twin actions of increasing without limit the number of unelected Members of Parliament while reducing the number of elected lawmakers is seriously damaging this institution in the eyes of our own electorate and lowering the esteem in which we are held abroad?

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between John Bercow and Tommy Sheppard

Wednesday 27th April 2016 Commons Chamber

[Tommy Sheppard (Edinburgh East) (SNP)]

The Government have succeeded in uniting the entire British voluntary sector against them, including household names such as the girl guides, Mencap and Oxfam. Indeed, their actions in trying to suppress debate and discussion are reminiscent of a totalitarian political culture. If voluntary organisations come across systemic child abuse or practices such as female genital mutilation, are you really saying that they should remain silent and not seek to influence Government, when a change in the law could outlaw such practices?

[Mr Speaker]

I am not saying anything of the kind, but I will leave it to the Minister.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between John Bercow and Tommy Sheppard

Wednesday 20th April 2016 Commons Chamber

[Mr Wallace]

On 24 June the border will still exist. However, if the United Kingdom chose to leave the European Union, it would step outside the customs union, which would inevitably affect trade across that border on which Northern Ireland is significantly dependent, because of more bureaucracy, more checks and a slowdown of trade.

[Tommy Sheppard (Edinburgh East) (SNP)]

I appreciate that the Secretary of State must feel quite lonely in Belfast these days, given that her views on Europe are not shared by the overwhelming majority of the population of Northern Ireland. Can we get to the bottom of the question of Brexit and the border? Her colleague, Nigel Lawson, the former Chancellor, said that leaving the EU would mean rebuilding the border between Northern Ireland and the Republic. Three days ago she said that that was not the case. They cannot both be right.

[Mr Speaker]

Far too long.

Budget Resolutions and Economic Situation

Debate between John Bercow and Tommy Sheppard

Wednesday 16th March 2016 Commons Chamber

[Mr Speaker]

Order. I am extremely grateful to the hon. Gentleman for his contribution. I think Mr Tommy Sheppard wishes to speak. No?

[Tommy Sheppard (Edinburgh East) (SNP)]

The clock has not been working, Mr Speaker.

[Callum McCaig]

The clock did not start, Mr Speaker.

Prayers

Debate between John Bercow and Tommy Sheppard

Wednesday 10th February 2016 Commons Chamber

[Mr Speaker]

I hope the House will join me in welcoming to the Serjeant’s Chair the new Serjeant at Arms on the occasion of his first Prime Minister’s questions, which is an exceptional day—[Hon. Members: “Hear, hear.”]—and an exceptional response. Secondly, the House might wish to join me in warmly congratulating Kim Sears and Andy Murray on the birth of their baby daughter.

Business Before Questions

Committee of Selection

Ordered,

That Heidi Alexander be discharged from the Committee of Selection and Jessica Morden be added.—(Anne Milton, on behalf of the Committee of Selection.)

Spoliation Advisory Panel

Resolved,

That an humble Address be presented to Her Majesty, That she will be graciously pleased to give directions that there be laid before this House a Return of the Report from Sir Donnell Deeny, Chairman of the Spoliation Advisory Panel, dated 10 February 2016, in respect of a gothic relief in ivory now in the possession of the Ashmolean Museum, Oxford.—(Stephen Barclay.)

[Tommy Sheppard (Edinburgh East) (SNP)]

On a point of order, Mr Speaker.

[Mr Speaker]

We do not take points of order now. Points of order come after questions and statements.

Points of Order

Debate between John Bercow and Tommy Sheppard

Wednesday 10th February 2016 Commons Chamber

[Tommy Sheppard (Edinburgh East) (SNP)]

On a point of order, Mr Speaker. I wish to raise a query about how we select ministerial questions in the post-English votes for English laws situation. Earlier today, we had Scottish questions. Some 45 Scottish Members submitted a question; three were chosen, which makes a success rate of 6%. Some 48 non-Scottish Members submitted a question; 12 were chosen, which makes a success rate of 25%. I appreciate that the randomness of the selection process can create these situations, but it is a matter of concern that Scottish Members had only a one-in-four chance of questioning the Scottish Secretary, as compared with other Members of the House. I ask you ever so gently, as part of the review into EVEL, to consider whether it might be appropriate, for those Departments with a specific territorial responsibility, to put in place some mechanism to allow the Members representing those areas a better chance of holding Ministers to account.

[Mr Speaker]

I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for his point of order. The short answer to the thrust of his question is that the selection is done by electronic ballot. It is done that way for questions to the Secretary of State for Scotland and for every other Question Time. I am happy to consider his request for consideration of an alternative method, but I hope he will bear in mind the likelihood that there will exist opinions other than and different from his own.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between John Bercow and Tommy Sheppard

Wednesday 28th October 2015 Commons Chamber

[Tommy Sheppard]

I have a related question on Gaza, if I may. What assessment has been made of the destruction of UK-funded facilities in Gaza by the bombing of the Israeli air force? It seems that we provide facilities, either directly or through the UN, but then those facilities get bombed and we have to provide them again. What can be done to stop that tragic merry-go-round, and will the Minister work with colleagues to try to persuade the Israeli Government to have a more proportionate response in Gaza and to stop hindering the relief effort?

[Mr Speaker]

I am sorry but these questions are too long. We are very short of time—we need pithy inquiries.

Standing Orders (Public Business)

Debate between John Bercow and Tommy Sheppard

Thursday 22nd October 2015 Commons Chamber

[Tommy Sheppard]

I will press on, I am afraid. I have already given way.

If, in the process of your discussion without us, you decide that the proposed legislation will not pass any further, we get no further say in the matter. That is exactly what is wrong with these proposals.

There is another point on which there has been much comment. Who decides whether a matter is of relevance to our constituents? It has been proposed that we have this invidious role for the Speaker, pushing him into what can only be a legal conundrum. I ask the Leader of the House: what happens if there is a disagreement? What happens if the people who elected me in Edinburgh believe that something is being discussed in this House that is relevant to them and they should have a right to vote on it? They will have no opportunity but to seek redress in the courts through the process of judicial review. Is that really the conundrum in which we wish to place the Speaker? I hope not.

As remarked upon, why should this apply only to Members of the House of Commons? I would love to see the House of Lords abolished, but it exists at the moment, and is it not remarkable that of all the constitutional imperfections in our system, we are discussing this one, rather than the fact that most Members of Parliament are not even elected in the first place? Conservative Members will say that those Members do not represent territorial or geographic interests. It is part of their collective self-delusion that they do. From the Marquess of Lothian to the Lords of Springburn, Bearsden and Glenscorrodale, they believe they represent the communities in which they operate, yet there is no suggestion that we limit their powers to debate and vote on legislation. Why just pick on us? The answer can only be: this is payback for the general election, when the SNP won convincingly in Scotland and the Conservative party won only 14% of the vote.

I know it is in your manifesto, but just because it is in your manifesto does not make it right—

[Mr Speaker]

Order. I do not wish to interrupt the eloquence of the hon. Gentleman’s flow or the flow of his eloquence, but I gently remind him that it was not in my manifesto.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between John Bercow and Tommy Sheppard

Wednesday 1st July 2015 Commons Chamber

[Tommy Sheppard (Edinburgh East) (SNP)]

I think that we can all agree that electoral registration is desirable and that one factor that will affect that is the degree of faith and confidence that people have in our electoral system. One measure that could enhance that is the ability of people to recall their Member of Parliament in between elections. When will the Minister bring into force the remaining provisions of the Recall of MPs Act 2015?

[Mr Speaker]

The hon. Gentleman has indulged in what might be called an elastic interpretation of the question on the Order Paper. But just as I have been indulgent of him, I feel sure that the Minister will be similarly indulgent.

Scotland Bill

Debate between John Bercow and Tommy Sheppard

Monday 8th June 2015 Commons Chamber

[Tommy Sheppard (Edinburgh East) (SNP)]

I congratulate the right hon. Gentleman on his new position and on beating off the opposition that he no doubt had in getting it. Does he not have cause to reflect that, whereas the previous Government in which he served as a Minister had the support of about a quarter of the elected Members of this House from Scotland, he is now this Government’s sole representative in Scotland? Does not that place on him a moral obligation to discuss with the elected representatives of the people of Scotland how to take forward this Bill? Is he not concerned that the all-party group in the Scottish Parliament that considered his draft proposals says that they do not equate to the proposals made by the Smith commission?

[Mr Speaker]

Order. Interventions must be brief.

--- Later in debate ---

[Tommy Sheppard]

The SNP remains committed to a situation in which the Scottish Government will have full financial control over their own affairs and be able to raise their own revenues. We want that to be done in a responsible way that does not disadvantage the people of Scotland. During the election campaign, we were treated by your party to a grotesque caricature of our proposals. I point out to you and ask you to reflect on the results of that election campaign, when people rejected what you said. You said that if they voted SNP they would bring on themselves some sort of economic Armageddon. The people did vote SNP and rejected your view.

[Mr Speaker]

Order. I do not have a party and I did not say any of the things that have just been attributed to me, but I know that the hon. Gentleman will become a seasoned practitioner before very long.