England-Wales Transport Links

Albert Owen Excerpts

Wednesday 6th February 2013 Westminster Hall

[Yvonne Fovargue]

It certainly is an extremely long time, and the Administration have said that it will happen by 2015, so let us hope that they will advance it further and that they have listened to the pleas of hon. Members from all around.

On the HS2 connection at Crewe station and connectivity, the Government need to give proper consideration to ensuring that the benefits extend into Wales. I am pleased that the Minister intervened to give support and provide information about the electrification of the south Wales line, which needs to be progressed urgently.

[Albert Owen (Ynys Môn) (Lab)]

I apologise for not being present for the earlier part of the debate; I was chairing another meeting. It is absolutely essential that we get fast trains stopping at Crewe. With the upgrade on the west coast main line, although many fast trains went to Manchester and Liverpool, they did not stop at Crewe, so people going to north Wales and west of that did not benefit. It is essential that we get that in HS2.

[Yvonne Fovargue]

My hon. Friend makes the point well that Crewe is an essential stopping-off point for Wales. HS2 needs to stop there, and there should be connectivity, so that people are not waiting for a long time at Crewe to get to Wales. I hope that the Minister will explain more fully the impact on cross-border links and say exactly how much the project will benefit Wales. Equally, it is not only about people who travel, but about freight. The Wales Freight Group was disappointing, and I hope that the establishment of the new group will invigorate the discussion and look at providing sustainable solutions for freight. We have heard of the problems that hauliers have had, particularly with the Severn bridge.

In conclusion, I believe that there is a general agreement that cross-border links are vital, and I am sure that no one would disagree with Carl Sargeant, the Minister in the Welsh Assembly with responsibility for transport in Wales, that good transport is critical for economic growth, social inclusion and the reduction of poverty. It is clear that roads, rail and buses all have an important role to play. Addressing any barrier to integration between England and Wales is vital, as is linking with the communities in north Wales, south Wales, and mid-Wales that have high deprivation. We are committed, in England and Wales, to achieving that aim.

[The Minister of State, Department for Transport (Mr Simon Burns)]

It is a pleasure to speak under your chairmanship, Mr Betts. I congratulate the hon. Member for Makerfield (Yvonne Fovargue) on what has been her first debate as a shadow Minister in this Chamber. I also congratulate the hon. Member for Ceredigion (Mr Williams) on securing what has been an interesting, useful and important debate on transport links across the England-Wales border. He raised a number of issues, as did many other hon. Members. Sadly, given the time available to me, I will not be able to respond to all their questions, but I can give an assurance that I will write to them to answer points that I cannot deal with in the debate.

The hon. Member for Ceredigion will know, as a member of the Welsh Affairs Committee—he raised this from time to time in his remarks—that cross-border links have been subject to inquiry by the Committee more than once. Its work has been extremely useful and has helped to give a greater understanding of the complexities and importance of the issue. As he will be aware—I, too, am aware, as I gave evidence to the Committee, chaired by my hon. Friend the Member for Monmouth (David T. C. Davies), last October—it is currently considering the issue again. I look forward to the publication of its report.

The Government have made clear in the coalition agreement our commitment to a modern low-carbon transport infrastructure as an essential element of a dynamic and entrepreneurial economy. We have also reiterated the importance of investment in our infrastructure, including our rail and strategic road networks, to ensure that they can support the economic performance of the country, including, equally importantly, that of Wales. Transport and travel are rarely ends in themselves. It is as a driver of economic growth that the Government attach so much importance to, and place so much stress on, investing in transport infrastructure. We consider the cross-border movement of people and goods in the context of growing the economies of England and Wales.

A positive return on investment requires a background of good governance. The hon. Member for Ceredigion will know that co-operation on and, where appropriate, the co-ordination of transport matters between the Department for Transport and the Welsh Government are important to the successful development of cross-border links, as well as to improving transport infrastructure and connectivity within Wales. Relationships between the Welsh Government transport group and the Department for Transport have advanced significantly, and processes have been agreed to further that. The Welsh Government and the Department for Transport enjoy a constructive working relationship that enables officials to provide their Ministers with the best advice possible to deliver on the aspirations of the respective Governments. That includes recognition of the importance of engaging on devolved and reserved issues.

On a personal basis, I am extremely pleased about what I consider—I am fairly confident that I will not be contradicted—to be the relationship that I have established with Carl Sargeant in the past five months since I have been at the Department for Transport. We speak regularly on the telephone. He has met my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Transport, and I look forward to having a meeting with Carl Sargeant in about a month’s time, when we will be able to discuss issues such as those raised by the hon. Member for Swansea East (Mrs James) and, I am sure, a number of other issues that have emerged during the debate. I will, rather than going into some of the details of what I was going to say on the generality, seek now to answer some of the questions that hon. Members have asked.

A number of hon. Members talked about electrification. I welcome their support for what the Government are doing with regard to the electrification of the Great Western line from London through to Cardiff and on via Bridgend to Swansea and of the Welsh Valleys lines. A question was asked about the time scale. I hope that hon. Members will be pleased to know that the time scales for completing the electrification are, between London and Cardiff, 2017; between Cardiff and Swansea, 2018; and throughout the Welsh valleys, 2019.

The hon. Member for Swansea East talked about the importance of the depot near Swansea. I can fully appreciate her concerns about that. I would be grateful if she left that issue with me; I will look into it and get back to her.

Equally importantly, a number of hon. Members raised the electrification of the North Wales line. I can fully appreciate that for those hon. Members whose constituencies are along that line, that is an important thing. As they will be aware, a bid was not put in, through the Welsh Government, in the relevant control period for electrification of that line. We recognise, and I am sure that the Welsh Government also recognise, the importance of looking at that, to seek improvements in the quality of journeys and standards.

[Albert Owen]

The Minister is right to talk about the importance of electrification for north Wales constituencies and north Wales as a whole, but it is also important for links to Ireland, to get fast movement of people and goods to the Republic of Ireland, which is our biggest trading partner.

West Coast Main Line

Albert Owen Excerpts

Monday 15th October 2012 Commons Chamber

[Mr McLoughlin]

I can assure my hon. Friend that the pause is while we wait to see what the Richard Brown inquiry says and whether there are things that we need to put right in these live competitions. Obviously, there will be no sops to any organisations. These are very competitive bids and a lot of work and effort goes into them. Overall, we are seeing far better services for this country’s passengers as a result of franchising and of the very brave decisions taken by my right hon. Friend the Member for North West Hampshire (Sir George Young) some years ago.

[Albert Owen (Ynys Môn) (Lab)]

I genuinely welcome the Secretary of State to his position. The performance of his two predecessors has not set a very high bar when it comes to competence in this matter. [Interruption.] The Minister of State, the right hon. Member for Chelmsford (Mr Burns) is growling at me from a sedentary position, but it was his colleague who said that this was robust. The Secretary of State said that Directly Operated Railways is on standby. What does that mean, and will it be used for the three other franchises that he has suspended?

[Mr McLoughlin]

I have not suspended the three other franchises; I have put them on hold, which is quite an important differential. I thank the hon. Gentleman for his compliments. I am always cautious about compliments coming from the Opposition Benches, but who knows?

As I have said, the three franchises have not been stopped. They have been put on hold, and I hope very much that we can return to operate and lease them once we have learnt the lessons of the Brown report. I do not think that there is any need to contemplate using DOR on those services.

West Coast Main Line

Albert Owen Excerpts

Monday 17th September 2012 Westminster Hall

[Iain Stewart]

I agree with the hon. Gentleman. I also put it on record that I have no preference as to whether Virgin or FirstGroup wins the franchise. Virgin operated the franchise perfectly competently, and I would have had no problem had it been the successful bidder. Equally, FirstGroup has made a very attractive offer, so I approach this from a neutral perspective.

[Albert Owen (Ynys Môn) (Lab)]

In his introduction, the hon. Gentleman omitted the fact that the west cost main line also serves north Wales. I will address that important point if I catch your eye, Mr Bone.

The hon. Gentleman mentioned that we may never know the detail of the bids, but surely that is the purpose of the Transport Committee’s inquiry. Ministers are there to answer such questions, and it would be in the Government’s interest if we were to have at least a summary so that we could clear up some of what he calls “speculation.”

[Iain Stewart]

I apologise to the hon. Gentleman; of course the route also serves Chester and the north Wales coast, and I will refer to that a little later.

We have had a summary of the respective bids, but to assess fully whether the FirstGroup bid is deliverable in preference to the Virgin bid, we would need to see the very detailed evidence that supports the headlines we all know about. My contention is that we cannot expect to see that while the bidding process is ongoing, because the bids contain commercially sensitive information. That would be like a card game in which each player has to reveal their hand before they play.

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[Albert Owen (Ynys Môn) (Lab)]

I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for West Lancashire (Rosie Cooper) on securing this important debate. As a number of hon. Members have said in interventions, we have not had the opportunity to discuss this matter since the announcement was made. That is regrettable. I pay tribute to Labour Front Benchers, including my hon. Friend the Member for Garston and Halewood (Maria Eagle), for raising this point over the summer, and the 170,000 people who bothered to sign the petition. The discussion has been too one-sided in respect of one company, although the details are not known. I mention that because the purpose of this debate is to find out the details so that we can know for sure.

I met a number of the bidders prior to the process. I was concerned about the process and put my concerns to them, including my concern about the record of some of them. I mentioned to First, which was preparing its bid, my concerns regarding its franchise in the south of Wales. First said that it would learn the lessons, would not back-load as much in future and would look at the whole period. That is why I am raising this issue. Of course, First could not talk about the detail of the bid, but I was concerned that it had handed back the franchise on the south Wales route at great expense to the taxpayer.

[Mr Marcus Jones]

Did the hon. Gentleman raise his concerns directly with the Government when the draft invitation to tender was published, or did he wait until after that process was complete?

[Albert Owen]

Just to help the hon. Gentleman, I have been raising rail issues for many years. I am the son of a railway man. Yes, I have raised it with Conservative/Liberal Democrat and Labour Ministers.

As for the process, what was clear from my meetings with the potential bidders was that they could not speak about the detail, so we were not that concerned. Now that we have heard the outcome, we have concerns—genuine concerns—on behalf of the taxpayer and the fare payer. That is why it is important to have this debate and why I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for West Lancashire.

The west coast line is important to my constituency. It is an historical link with north Wales, but it also linked the capital of England with the capital of Ireland. Many of the trains that went from Euston to Holyhead carried the Royal Mail—the great Irish Mail trains—but another reason why the link was so important was that it brought Members of Parliament from Ireland to this place for important votes. In those days, Members of Parliament from different parts of the country had real influence over train services—less so today—and one of the reasons for the service was to get all those Irish MPs over.

I have taken a great interest in the line for many years, and I represent a railway town that was and still is a major employer in the area. Today, after many years of investment, in particular over the past decade, we have fast and frequent trains. Now the Super Voyagers or Class 221 trains can do the run from Holyhead to Euston in three hours and 40 minutes. On top of that, there has been an increase in the number of trains to Chester, which has helped my constituents going along the north Wales coast or those going to Anglesey on other occasions. Although having to change at Chester is not always nice, it is better than standing in Euston for hours, which we had to do in the 1980s and early ’90s when trains were less frequent.

[Susan Elan Jones (Clwyd South) (Lab)]

I take on board my hon. Friend’s point about Chester, but does he agree that still more needs to be done with the direct link to Wrexham, Gobowen and so forth? That was not put in the tender, but the current situation is unacceptable and, when we consider the Wrexham and Shropshire line, all the more urgent. Whether Virgin or FirstGroup, it needs to be addressed properly.

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[Albert Owen]

My hon. Friend is absolutely right, and my hon. Friend the Member for Halton (Derek Twigg) also made the point that we want continued improvement on the west coast line. People in all parts of the House want to improve the line, but many people including the petitioners have real concerns. It is absolutely right that we want the best deal for our areas, but we also want the best deal for the taxpayer and the fare payer.

I can recall a modernisation programme for the west coast in the early ’90s, which was hampered slightly by privatisation, with things put on hold. Many people, including Conservative supporters, thought that rail privatisation was a privatisation too far. There was a lot of under-investment and the programme was put back slightly, and there was also the Railtrack debacle, with Network Rail having to take over. There were therefore massive issues, but that huge investment of £9 billion—mentioned by the hon. Member for Rugby (Mark Pawsey)—still went ahead and made significant improvements, bringing business from the regions of north-west England, Scotland and north Wales closer to London. Many business people, some of whom I travelled down with today from Bangor station, now come to London and can do business in a day. That is how important the west coast line is to many people and why the debate is so important. We need to get things right for the future.

In the early days, there were issues with the operator—Virgin—which hampered the service, for example on safety, with many line speeds and signalling having to be improved. Stations such as Nuneaton, Rugby and Stafford, represented by Members here, had huge investment simply to improve the safety of the lines, because a lot of work needed to be done. Now we can see the results of that investment—faster, cleaner and safer trains travelling on the west coast.

Virgin is a popular brand. I have been contacted by many constituents—not natural Labour supporters—who are concerned about the franchise and how it will run. They want safeguards, and answers to questions, which is what we want from this debate. I understand about franchising, the judicial review and the difficulties for the Minister—whom I welcome to his post, because he has a great interest in the railways—but I hope that he will be able to answer some of the questions asked by my hon. Friends and Government Members today. We are not asking about the details of the franchise, but about some of the principles.

The Minister and the Secretary of State mentioned that if we do not get the matter resolved by 9 December, the franchise might have to be taken into state ownership of some sort and to be renationalised—I think that was the word he allegedly used—temporarily. If that happens, however, it is important for the Department for Transport to have a contingency plan, which I hope that the Minister can tell us about. We understand that there is a responsibility for that to happen under the franchise agreement, but we need to get that plan. The staff and the travelling public need to know, and ticketing for the future has to be set up and run. State ownership might be an attractive proposition to many people, but it was brought into the debate by the Secretary of State, and we need some answers. The Minister should clarify whether that contingency is being planned for, so that we do not have a period when people do not know where to get their tickets if the judicial review is not complete and the new owner not in place.

[Robert Flello (Stoke-on-Trent South) (Lab)]

I have been listening carefully to my hon. Friend’s speech. Does he want to comment a little further on the effect that all the uncertainty and confusion might have on staffing levels, and therefore on service? If staff are, understandably, concerned about their future, they might decide to go elsewhere, if such opportunities are available, and that might affect the service that the travelling public can expect.

[Albert Owen]

That is absolutely right. There is huge anxiety, and morale has been sapped, so it is important to get clarification on where we are going. Yes, the judicial review is out of Minister’s hands, but if the Secretary of State makes announcements about temporary renationalisation, he needs to reassure people that he has the plans in place so that any such period is dealt with as smoothly and efficiently as possible.

I speak to rail staff regularly, and did so only a few hours ago on the train journey down, and they are very anxious. To be fair, they have been given assurances about their future by both Virgin and FirstGroup, but the hiatus because of the judicial review is causing greater anxiety. It is incumbent on the Government, who award the franchises, to make it clear, if they are to take temporary measures, what those measures are.

Many issues have been raised, but some are important and need repeating. We need to know whether all the bids were treated exactly the same and whether the risk of all the bids was assessed, not just for the leading or highest bid. We are not talking about a casino, but about running our transport system—the process is hugely important and needs to be done properly. I hope that the Minister can answer some of the questions and confirm whether he has had a list of questions from Virgin and explain why he has refused to answer some of those questions. Some of them may be commercially sensitive, which I understand, but the ones that I have seen and that I was supplied with by Virgin were general. We want the answers to some of them, in the interest of the 170,000-plus petitioners. I hope that we will deal with the issues of renationalisation over that short period and whether the risk for all bids was assessed equally. A tendering system has to be done in that way—robustly over the 15-year period and not only on the basis of the highest money value to the Government.

A lot of questions have been asked by Members in all parts of the House. I know the sensitivity of the judicial review, but it should not be a shield for the Minister to hide behind and to use to avoid answering general questions. The public have a right to know—the rail is in public ownership and a lot of taxpayer money goes into the franchise agreement—and they deserve those answers, which the Minister could give today and help the debate.

I had a quick response from the Minister of State, Department for Transport, the right hon. Member for Chelmsford (Mr Burns), saying robustly that he was happy with what the Government had done. He also said that the contract remains alive, and that he expects it to be signed soon. He has that confidence and information at his fingertips, and I am sure that the Minister present can share some of that information with us today. It is important that the Government are seen to be open and transparent, because we are talking about billions of pounds of investment.

We all want the west coast main line to be improved. I am not interested in the logo on the side of the trains, but I am interested in the quality of service on the west coast. It has improved considerably over the past decade, and I want it to improve further. I want investment in areas such as Anglesey so that we have connectivity with rail services. This debate is about the petitioners and their concerns rightly being aired by Members of Parliament, and being answered efficiently by the Government.

[Mr Peter Bone (in the Chair)]

I see seven hon. Members trying to catch my eye, and we have less then 55 minutes remaining for Back Benchers to speak. Hon. Members can do the arithmetic.

Cost of Living

Albert Owen Excerpts

Wednesday 16th May 2012 Commons Chamber

[Mr Davey]

The right hon. Lady ought to know that we saw a massive V-curve because of how fuel poverty was measured under the previous Government—fuel poverty came down earlier in their period of office and shot up dramatically as global gas prices increased. She is not living in the real world if she thinks that is the correct way to measure fuel poverty. That is why this Government are getting to grips with the problem. We are ensuring we measure the problem properly so we have the right policies, which the previous Government never did.

To return to feed-in tariffs, I remind the right hon. Lady that we have had to reform the scheme designed by the Leader of the Opposition so that huge windfalls do not go to a few people. Our reforms will ensure that many people benefit from solar PV. We are the party of the solar many; they are the party of the solar few.

On Warm Front, the right hon. Lady offered no recognition of the progress we have made to spend our budget; of the reality that a warmer winter last year reduced demand; or of the fact that the shameful scaremongering by Labour Members on Warm Front, who said the scheme was closing more than a year before it will, might just have put some people off applying.

When it comes to Governments being responsible for putting people’s bills up, the right hon. Lady ought to talk to the leader of her party. Let me refer her to the UK’s low carbon transition plan, published by the Leader of the Opposition when he was in my job. Let me further refer her to the analytical annex, page 66, table 9, and the estimate of the cost of the renewable heat incentive on people’s gas bills, as proposed by Labour. The estimated increase in gas bills by 2020 was £179, but this Government stopped that approach, because we were not going to put £179 on people’s gas bills. That is 179 reasons for not taking Labour seriously on energy bills.

[Albert Owen (Ynys Môn) (Lab)]

I welcome the right hon. Gentleman to his post. I am a member of the Select Committee on Energy and Climate Change, so we will have a bit of knockabout on some issues, but knockabout on fuel poverty is not right. Whether or not we are changing the measures, more people have found themselves in fuel poverty this year and last year, and the previous Government reduced the number by 1 million people. That is a fact, whether the curve is V-shaped or not. What measures are this Government taking to assist those people who have fallen into fuel poverty?

[Mr Davey]

Let me give the hon. Gentleman one exact policy, for which Labour never legislated: the warm home discount is a way of targeting cuts in people’s bills directly, for the poorest people in our country. We have legislated for that, it is delivering, and we are proud of it.

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[Mr Edward Leigh (Gainsborough) (Con)]

It is a pleasure to follow the right hon. Member for Croydon North (Malcolm Wicks). We all know that he has not been very well recently, but he gave a fantastic speech and we wish him well. I join him in a lot of what he said about promoting family life. He made some interesting comments about the desire of women to have more children—my wife and I would have liked to have had more children, but perhaps six is enough—and about child benefit, and I will say a bit about waste in Government spending in a moment. I support child benefit as we have always had it, because not only is it the most popular benefit, but there is no fraud, error or means-testing to it and it works. So much of the waste in government is down to excessive micro-management of benefits. That is why I, like the right hon. Gentleman, believe in child benefit as we have always understood it. Many middle-class people may be under heavy financial pressure and we should recognise in the benefits system the cost of children, although I suppose I must declare an interest, as people might say, “Well, he would say that, wouldn’t he?”

What I really want to discuss today is something that perhaps not many others—certainly not many Opposition Members—will be talking about. This debate is about the cost of living, but the greatest burden on families is the burden of government, and heavy and wasteful Government spending. Total Government spending increased under the previous Labour Government by 55% in real terms over the 13 years. We hear a lot from the Labour party, and indeed from the Government, about how we are now trying to correct that. Indeed, it is in the political interest of both the Labour Opposition and the Government to exaggerate what the coalition is doing to try to rein back a disastrous financial situation. Let us just imagine what would happen if a family’s spending increased by more than half but there was a paltry increase in the real wealth coming into that household. This coalition Government’s spending cuts from 2010 to 2015 will amount to only 3% of Government spending, so let us not get too excited when the Labour party tells us that these “horrendous cuts”—up to now there have been no cuts in spending; there have been cuts in the deficit, but no cuts in spending—have produced the dire economic situation we are in.

The Office for Budget Responsibility, an independent body, forecasts that for the coming year almost 41% of all output in our country—all that hard-earned money, from people slaving away in offices, factories and services—will go to the Government. That is more than the figures for America, Australia and Canada. We have heard a lot about the European Union in the past week—we have heard about its difficulties, its waste, its over-taxation and its overspending—but even many EU countries have a lower tax burden than Britain. Such countries include Ireland, Greece, which is apparently the basket case of Europe, and Spain; they all tax their economies less than we do. We are in a dire situation and we have to address it.

The Government expect to borrow a staggering £126 billion this year—imagine an ordinary family having to borrow such a proportion of their total spending every year. I take a particular interest in this because I firmly believe that we can deliver the same outputs for people in effective public services with very much more efficient inputs. I believe that big government is always accompanied by big waste.

[Albert Owen]

When the hon. Gentleman said that other European countries tax less, was he talking about the total tax take, including from industry, or just about personal taxation? As I recall it, personal taxation is significantly higher in the Republic of Ireland than in the United Kingdom.

[Mr Leigh]

I am talking about total taxation, which is the important thing to understand. I know that it is difficult to compare countries. For instance, we often talk about Italy being a basket case in terms of Government borrowing, but private borrowing is very low in Italy. We have to address this problem by considering the total taxation of all output, because that is what is of interest to efficiency and an efficient Government.

As I was saying, big government is accompanied by big waste. I am sure that many hon. Members were shocked, as I was, by a National Audit Office report in January—or rather by a report of reports; I am sure that everybody in this House avidly reads what the NAO says every week. This report was published in January, so it was not an attack on the previous Labour Government; it relates to now and the situation this minute. It is about this apparently hard-hitting, right-wing Government who are cutting left, right and centre, and persecuting the people—that is the charge against the Government; I would not say anything like that, of course. The report suggests that there is waste, at the moment, of more than £31 billion across government. Hon. Members may recall that Philip Green carried out an efficiency review, after which he said:

“You could not be in business if you operated like this. It would be impossible.”

His review identified, among other things, £700 million in saving on the Government telephone bill alone. In the past two Parliaments, the Public Accounts Committee conducted more than 400 hearings on waste. Such hearings are carrying on in this Parliament, as they will in the next Parliament and the Parliament after that. Nobody can tell me that enormous opportunities to cut waste do not remain.

Why is that issue important, given that this is a debate on the cost of living? This is not some anorak issue in which only accountants or economists should be interested. Every taxpayer in this country should be interested in what is going on in government at the moment, because the public sector is funded from the pockets of ordinary people and ordinary firms—many of them small, struggling firms—across Britain. Spending money in such a way means that the public and firms are being hit by a double-whammy, as prices are inflated by wasteful government spending, and firms have less of their own money to invest and families have less to spend. That situation is not fair.

We have mentioned the complexities of the benefits system and discussed child benefit. In addition to a hugely wasteful government system, Britain suffers from a horrendously complex tax system. Our tax code is now the longest in the world. Do a Conservative Government find that satisfactory? Our tax code has recently overtaken India’s in length and has doubled in size since 1997. Our horrendously complex tax system may have allowed the previous Government to keep many of their taxes a secret, but it has led to Britain being ranked 89th in the world, behind Nigeria and Zimbabwe, on the burden of government regulation in a recent World Economic Forum report. That simply is not good enough. I know that my friends on the Treasury Bench are doing their best, but they are not trying hard enough. They have to do better, because ordinary people and ordinary firms are paying for all this.

That complexity is structurally biased against ordinary workers and small businesses, because they lack the resources to investigate all the available loopholes. According to the Centre for Policy Studies, the effective marginal tax rate for some people on low incomes is as high as 96%. We know that, because we have done all these studies; the right hon. Members for Croydon North and for Birkenhead (Mr Field) served with me on the Select Committee on Social Security for many years, and for many years the right hon. Member for Birkenhead has campaigned on the issue of the trap for ordinary people, particularly those at the bottom of the heap, of paying marginal tax rates of 96%. We are crushing our own people, and not just with the waste for which we are responsible in our own spending. We oversee that waste in this House of Commons—we are responsible for it; nobody else out there is responsible. We crush our own people under a hugely wasteful system of government inefficiency and with increasingly complex taxes and benefits.

The rich do not suffer from that. The marginal tax rate for top-rate taxpayers is just 57.8%—the very richest do not even pay that. They do not even pay 57%. With the benefit of having successful and hugely expensive accountants, they are paying 10% or 15%.

In the most recent global competitors report by the World Economic Forum, three of the four biggest problems facing UK businesses were identified as tax rates, tax regulations and inefficient Government bureaucracy. Let me set out what I believe we should have in the Government. Apparently we are going to have a reshuffle soon. What we need are Ministers—the Prime Minister has to check on their performance—who are, like a non-executive director on the board of a private company such as Tesco, obsessed not by policy but by efficiency. We have three excellent Ministers sitting on the Front Bench—the Secretary of State for Transport, the Minister of State, Department of Energy and Climate Change, my hon. Friend the Member for Wealden (Charles Hendry) and the Minister of State, Department of Health, my right hon. Friend the Member for Chelmsford (Mr Burns)—as well as our Whip. I am sure they are doing these sorts of things every day, but much more could be done. I hope the Whip is listening to all the kind comments I am making about the Ministers. I sincerely believe that this is one of the most important things the Government could do.

An obvious conclusion to reach, given what I have said, is that the tax system should be simplified. That would reduce costs and simultaneously be likely to increase revenues. As I have argued again and again, this is not necessarily a market-driven, right-wing point of view, because the lower-paid would benefit from it. The natural conclusion of such simplification would be a much flatter rate, or even a flat-rate tax system. Such a system has been successfully introduced in places as diverse as Serbia, Hong Kong and Russia. When I was in Russia recently, I spoke to a young entrepreneur. The flat-rate tax in Russia is 13%. How extraordinary that the former Soviet Union now has a more entrepreneurially based system than we have—a flat-rate tax of 13% in a large economy such as Russia.

There is a precedent for such an approach in this country. When the Thatcher Government more than halved the top tax rate, the proportion of income tax revenue paid by the highest earners rose. As I said in our debates on the Budget, I welcome what the Chancellor of the Exchequer did in cutting the top rate from 50% to 45%; indeed, I think it should be cut from 45% to 40%. Such people do not bury their money in the ground. If they are taxed less, there is more entrepreneurship and more of them stay in this country. They earn more and give more, and less effort is spent on tax evasion and tax avoidance.

As important as tax reform is, the key to Government finance is a reduction in spending. If we spend less, we can tax less—it is that simple. There is nothing inherently good about Government spending, although Ministers from parties on both sides of the House have apparently congratulated themselves on how much they have spent on the health service and education. They congratulate themselves on spending inefficiently what other people earn.

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[Mr Walker]

I could not agree more with my hon. Friend.

[Albert Owen]

The hon. Gentleman mentioned the importance of diesel prices. This is not a party political point, but one of the stark problems confronting this country is our lack of diesel refining capacity. Much of the oil extracted from the North sea is exported to India and the sub-continent, refined there and brought back to this country, which puts up the price. As a result, we have a shortage of diesel and pay more for it. Surely we should all work together on ways to increase distillery capacity, so that we can refine diesel in this country? Diesel used to be a damned sight cheaper than petrol, but the reverse is now true because of this problem.

--- Later in debate ---

[Albert Owen (Ynys Môn) (Lab)]

It is pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Worcester (Mr Walker), who was courteous in giving way. I pay tribute to his late father, who was Secretary of State for Wales and an Energy Minister—I will discuss energy reforms later in my speech. When I lobbied him when he was Secretary of State and a Minister, I found that he agreed with me more than he agreed with Mrs Thatcher, his leader at the time.

The grocery market ombudsman is a very good inclusion in the Queen’s Speech. In the previous Parliament, I introduced a private Member’s Bill on a supermarket ombudsman, which gained cross-party support and went into Committee. We unfortunately ran out of time, but there was a consensus. The Conservative party said at the time that such an office would be a priority in government, as did the Liberal Democrats and the Labour party, and here we are, two years down the road. I am a bit disappointed that it has taken two years for the Government parties to achieve action on a “priority”, but I welcome the fact that it has been achieved.

If we are to have an adjudicator for the code of practice, it is important that it has the right tools and the teeth to do the job. The adjudicator should not exist in name only. We should work together to continue that consensus to ensure that our suppliers, producers and consumers get a better deal out of the code of conduct by having an independent adjudicator to oversee it. I look forward to scrutinising and improving the Bill.

As hon. Members know, the code of conduct has been in place for a couple of years, which is why it was a priority to have an adjudicator. I want the adjudicator to be more proactive in looking at the industry—not just waiting for there to be victims of rogue trading in the grocery market industry. It is important to include in the legislation provision for a third party to bring a problem to the attention of the grocery market adjudicator.

I welcome that proposed legislation, but given that it has been two years since the last Queen’s Speech—Her Majesty has not visited Parliament in only three years of her 60-year reign—many people, including me, were expecting this one to be a beefy Queen’s Speech. However, it is paper thin. The hon. Member for Cambridge (Dr Huppert), who is not in his place, said that we do not need a legislative programme to create growth and do many of the things we need to do in the country, but then he mentioned Liberal Democrat taxation policies. I must remind him that getting taxation measures through the House needs a Finance Bill, so he was not quite correct.

It is important that we have a programme, particularly after what has been described—not by Labour Members, but by the Tory-friendly press—as a botched Budget and a Queen’s Speech that lacked any strategy for growth and job creation. I welcome the drop in unemployment announced today, but it is not a trend and we should not get carried away. As the Prime Minister said in Question Time earlier, we must do more to stop the increasing number of part-time jobs. The rate of full-time equivalent employment is falling not rising. Many people are moving from full-time employment into part-time jobs, and as a result their cost of living is rising and their standard of living falling. We need to address that issue.

I want to mention the Chancellor’s botched Budget. Like the hon. Member for Worcester, I have been visiting businesses in my community, including Conservative businesses that have never been particularly Labour friendly. They have told me that the measures on VAT have reduced their capacity to invest, and that is hurting them. The fact that the Foreign Secretary, the Defence Secretary and others have said that businesses need to work a little harder shows, unfortunately, how out of touch the Government are. Those businesses are telling me that they are working flat out, while their costs are rising. Some of those rising costs are the result of external factors—I acknowledge that energy and wholesale prices have risen—but many extra burdens are not as a result of that.

For instance, the Budget contained a 20% increase in taxation on the caravan and hospitality industry. Many hon. Members either abstained or voted for that measure and did not vote against it. Operators have told me that it is a huge burden, because 60% of their turnover comes from the sale of caravans. In the past, it was from that profit that they could reinvest in their parks—and they invested substantial sums. In my constituency alone, an estimated 300 jobs will go if that measure is introduced, because operators will be unable to reinvest. That is a tax on jobs. Before the election, the Chancellor, with his political hat on, talked about a tax on jobs, yet now he has created a tax on jobs by increasing VAT.

[Mr MacNeil]

The hon. Gentleman mentioned the vote on VAT. Was it a mistake, therefore, for Labour not to vote with the Scottish National party and Plaid Cymru against the rise in VAT from 17.5% to 20% and instead to abstain?

[Albert Owen]

The hon. Gentleman knows that I do not always vote with my party, and if he checks the record, he will see that I have voted for several SNP measures. If they are sensible, I will vote for them, but not many are. [Interruption.] I cannot speak for the rest of Labour, but I can speak for myself very comfortably in this House, and have done from both the Government and Opposition Benches.

It was wrong to increase VAT. It took money out of the economy at a time when we needed a fiscal stimulus. That is what business is telling me. That is why it is disappointing that the Budget increased VAT instead of addressing the situation. As the Institute for Fiscal Studies said, VAT is a regressive tax which most hurts the poorest and most vulnerable in our society. The Prime Minister and the leader of the Liberal Democrats said as much before the general election, yet when they entered government, they increased it. That is what turned small economic growth into a double-dip recession. That is what business tells me. I am willing to stand up and speak for businesses, especially hard-working businesses. It is a disgrace for senior Ministers to say that businesses should simply work harder, given that the Government are increasing taxation and taking money out of the economy, as a result of which people are not spending on their businesses.

[Laura Sandys]

I remind the hon. Gentleman that the former Chancellor of the Exchequer, the right hon. Member for Edinburgh South West (Mr Darling), wrote in his published memoirs that he, too, was going to increase VAT.

[Albert Owen]

I had many debates with my right hon. Friend when he was in office. I did not shirk that responsibility. He felt that increasing VAT was the best thing to do but was outvoted in Cabinet. It was not a Government decision. He wanted to increase VAT, but he was wrong. He also wanted to increase vehicle excise duty, but I argued and voted against that measure because it, too, was wrong. On those issues, he was wrong. He did many brave things. For instance, he introduced the 50p rate at the end of our time in office. [Laughter.] Government Members laugh. He did it at the end, but he did it because we were in a crisis and needed extra revenue. That was supported by a lot of people at that time, yet this Government have managed to reduce the taxation for the richest while putting VAT on businesses and as a result a tax on jobs.

[Dr Poulter]

Does the hon. Gentleman accept that the biggest tax on jobs would be if this country tried to spend its way out of debt, which is exactly what Labour would have us try to do?

[Albert Owen]

I understand what has come from the Government Whips—I have seen copies of it, and it says that all the time; indeed, it has probably got into the psyche. However, let us look at proper economics. When we have low interest rates—and we have had historically low interest rates—it is during a recession. That is what happens; it is a natural phenomenon. Since January 2009, interest rates have been at an historic low. That did not start when this Government came in; it started in January 2009. Gilts and bonds are low as well, which gives us a golden opportunity to borrow at lower rates. That is how we got out of recessions in the past across the world. Pure austerity measures have never worked. People should look at economic history. Austerity is part of the package, but unless we get growth and jobs, we will not get out of the double-dip recession we are in.

We sometimes get accused of being deficit deniers. I am neither a deficit denier nor a deficit extremist. It is extremism that gets us into trouble, and I have to say that there are many people in this House who are recession deniers—they are denying the fact that we are going down. Many people are paying the price, and that is why the cost of living is so important.

Let me move on to energy and electricity market reform. I support reform in principle, although we do not know the details, so it would be a little naive to support it fully until it is implemented. I am a member of the Select Committee on Energy and Climate Change, and we have looked at the principle of electricity market reform. We produced a report highlighting some of our concerns. There has been a White Paper for a long time, but we are only going to get pre-legislative scrutiny. We need to know what is in the Bill in order to deal with the issue properly and provide the certainty needed to invest in our infrastructure.

The Government have missed an opportunity in this Queen’s Speech. On one side, yes, there should be incentives for investment—that is very important—but there is very little protection for consumers. I have long argued in this House that Ofgem, the energy regulator, should have more teeth. It should be standing up. It is a damned cheek for the new Energy Secretary—whom I welcome to his place today—to try to claim some credit for the fact that energy companies are providing greater transparency in their bills. It is campaigns by the likes of Which? and Consumer Focus and so on that have highlighted the problems and embarrassed the energy companies, while the Government stood by and watched. Ofgem should have greater teeth. I make a plea to the Government to take that on board, because energy costs are hurting people, in peripheral areas in particular. Many are off the gas mains and off the grid. I want Ofgem, the regulator, to have the same powers to protect customers who are not on the gas mains as it enjoys in protecting those who are on the gas mains.

Finally, let me move on to the subject of transport. I welcome the concept of High Speed 2, but I want to see it up and running. The Transport Secretary is quoted as saying, “Well, we’re preparing for legislation.” The legislation is vital, so can she give some indication of when it is likely to be introduced? We have done the consultation and the matter has been agreed by this House, although it is not popular with certain sections.

[Justine Greening]

The hon. Gentleman is right that there is an awful lot of preparatory work to be done to ensure that the hybrid Bill contains the information that this House needs to scrutinise the proposal properly. We expect that preparatory work to be done through the course of this year and next, and for a hybrid Bill to be introduced by the end of next year.

[Albert Owen]

I appreciate that. A hybrid Bill in itself will take a long time, so we are unlikely to see anything soon. However, I support the main thrust of high-speed rail. We saw benefits under the previous Government in north-west Wales, north-west England and Scotland after we invested in faster line speeds. High-speed rail is important.

My final point is about VAT on fuel duty. Every time people spend £1 on petrol, they have to pay an extra 2.5p. That really hurts people. It is wrong, and it should be reversed.

We needed a Queen’s Speech that set out proposals for jobs and growth. This has been a missed opportunity, on top of a botched Budget which has led us into a double-dip recession. That is damaging the living standards of my constituents and those across the United Kingdom.

[Sir Bob Russell (Colchester) (LD)]

The title of today’s Queen’s Speech debate is “Cost of Living”, yet at 10 o’clock this morning, only 10 Members had put their names down to speak, and the Whips were rushing around trying to get more people from all parts of the House to participate. That suggests to me, despite the Opposition amendment, that the serious financial situation facing millions of low-income and disadvantaged people is considered to be a lower priority than the subjects debated on other days when so many MPs wanted to speak that there had to be a time limit of as little as six minutes for each speaker.

The Chancellor’s decision to cut the top rate of income tax from 50p to 45p was a political error on a big scale, for it gave the impression that this Government are one who favour the rich at the expense of the poor. The notion that “we are all in it together” lacked credibility because of the Cabinet’s decision on that. It is the way the Chancellor tells them that is the problem. Regrettably, his announcement on the reduction from the 50p top rate completely overshadowed the good news that 20 million people would have lower taxes. In the context of the cost of living, that is wonderful news. The last Budget resulted in a tax cut of a further £220 on top of the £550 income tax cut already achieved since Labour lost the 2010 general election. That has to be good news, too, in the context of the cost of living. In my Colchester constituency, nearly 5,000 low-income people will, thanks to the coalition, be lifted out of paying any income tax. That is the second-highest number in any local authority area in Essex.

[Albert Owen]

The hon. Gentleman is right to say that the thresholds have raised and that some people are coming out of paying income tax. Does he not acknowledge, however, that his party and coalition colleagues voted in favour of VAT rises, which will wipe out any gain that the lower-paid will have had? The VAT has increased Budget on Budget.

[Sir Bob Russell]

If the hon. Gentleman checked the record, he would see that I voted against the VAT increase.

The headlines were all about the cut to the 50p top tax rate for those earning more than £150,000 a year. There are very few people in my constituency who get paid upwards of £3,000 a week. Thus, all the good things done to help those on low incomes—whether they be families or old-age pensioners—have been lost in the minds of many people because of the cut in the 50p tax rate.

Before the Opposition get excited, I must point out that, for all but the final few weeks of the last Government—and let us not forget how Labour left the country in a financial mess—the top rate of tax under new Labour was 40p for high earners, and that for almost 13 years. Our 45p rate is higher than the 40p rate levied by new Labour.

Let me remind the House of what I said on 11 May last year at Prime Minister’s Questions:

“The Labour Government took Britain to the brink of bankruptcy. The gap between rich and poor widened, and nearly 4 million children were left living below the poverty line. Last month, the coalition Government cut income tax, liberally helping millions of people, but I have to ask the Prime Minister this: if we are all in this together, what is he going to do about the obscenity of 1,000 multi-millionaires boosting their personal wealth by 18% in the past year?”



Responding, the Prime Minister said:

“One of the things we absolutely will do—and we have put in the money to make sure it happens—is crack down on the tax evasion that takes place so widely in our country. The Treasury has put money into that campaign to make sure it happens. The hon. Gentleman makes a good point.”

Well, I normally do. He continued:

“Because of our coalition Government, we have lifted 1 million people out of income tax and, at the same time over the past year, we see exports up, private sector jobs up, the economy growing and borrowing down—all radically different from what would have happened if we had listened to the recipe from the Labour Party.”—[Official Report, 11 May 2011; Vol. 527, c. 1158-9.]

In concluding today’s debate, will the Minister give us a progress report on what the Prime Minister said a year ago? Perhaps what is needed on both Front Benches are people with experience of the university of life, and the school of hard knocks.

Coastguard Modernisation

Albert Owen Excerpts

Tuesday 22nd November 2011 Commons Chamber

[Mike Penning]

I am sure that my hon. Friend is aware that these days in a co-ordination centre binoculars are not the usual piece of equipment used to survey what is going on at sea. The electronic equipment that we use is highly technical and works very well. In times of high need, we will be able to move that around the network so that other less important jobs that are already flowing through can be taken on by other stations or the MOC while new emergencies that are coming on board, with the local knowledge that is so desperately needed, can be facilitated.

[Albert Owen (Ynys Môn) (Lab)]

May I join the Minister and the shadow Minister in paying tribute to the search and rescue family, including volunteers of coastguard services, for the excellent work that they do in protecting our coastline and coastal waters? May I also thank the Minister for reiterating the strategic importance of Holyhead and invite him to visit it, because he did not have a chance to do so during the consultation period? Will he assure the House that there will be constructive dialogue between management and the work force, including the unions, on this modernisation programme, so that they are fully involved and their ideas and local skills are used to make up this resilience that he talks about? Will he also assure the House that people will be told of redundancy and of any displacement that there will throughout the United Kingdom in plenty of time?

[Mike Penning]

I have been working with the Public and Commercial Services union since day one when I became the Minister. I met its representatives very early on. They have been desperate for this issue to be resolved once and for all. They know the service needs to be modernised and that there had to be closures. They knew that all the way through, and I have discussed that with them fully. They were part of the group that looked at the proposals and the consultation documents that came in. We will work closely with the unions and the non-unionised members of staff, so that we ensure that whatever happens they know. I do not think that there will be any redundancies in Holyhead, but, overall, we will do our level best to make sure that it is natural wastage and that we keep the skills within the service.

Coastguard Modernisation

Albert Owen Excerpts

Thursday 14th July 2011 Commons Chamber

[Albert Owen (Ynys Môn) (Lab)]

First, I pay tribute to all the volunteers, coastguards and full-time search and rescue crews operating helicopters and lifeboats around our coastline. I welcome the retention of the Holyhead station, which is based not only on the importance of the Welsh language, as has been noted, but on the links with 22 Squadron at RAF Valley. The Secretary of State mentioned a nationally networked system, as well as consultation. When that is set up, will he ensure that there is internal consultation of individual front-line coastguards, so that they can contribute to the best and safest network, one that is fit for the 21st century?

[Mr Hammond]

Yes, of course, that process is already under way.

High-speed Rail

Albert Owen Excerpts

Wednesday 13th July 2011 Westminster Hall

[Susan Elan Jones]

There is work to be done in north Wales. We are talking about a link that would speed up the entire journey down here. The examples that I gave earlier show how it is much quicker to travel to parts of Europe than to parts of north Wales, which bears testimony to my argument.

[Albert Owen (Ynys Môn) (Lab)]

At present, many people travel by car to Manchester and hubs. As the hon. Member for Ceredigion (Mr Williams) said, if we get the high-speed rail network, there will be connectivity between Birmingham and various other cities, and north Wales. People from north Wales will travel by train, which will save the environment and save time.

[Susan Elan Jones]

I agree totally with my hon. Friend. When the north Wales main line is electrified, a small number of trains—one or two a day, for example—could be diverted off the main track at Crewe or another convenient point to travel along that track. A passenger would therefore be able to travel from continental Europe to Rhyl, Bangor or, indeed, my hon. Friend’s constituency. Of course, I would also argue for the inclusion of Wrexham directly. Wales, and north Wales in particular, is on the periphery of Europe, but a high-quality transport plan could bring us into real contention for business.

--- Later in debate ---

[Iain Stewart (Milton Keynes South) (Con)]

It is always a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Gray. I add my congratulations to the hon. Member for Clwyd South (Susan Elan Jones) on securing the debate.

I am a member of the Select Committee on Transport, and we are midway through our inquiry into high-speed rail, which is one of the most fascinating subjects that I have had to consider in my time as a Member. In the interests of time, I will not rehearse all the arguments for and against. I want to do two things in my contribution. First I make a plea to all sides in the debate to keep their remarks objective and evidence-based, and not to indulge in unhelpful and insulting point scoring; I say that to everyone. To those who support high-speed rail, it is incredibly unhelpful and insulting to polarise the debate as jobs in the north against lawns in the south, which is insulting to lots of people who have real and passionate objections to the concept of high-speed rail.

[Albert Owen]

The hon. Gentleman is making an important point. The problem is that little evidence is available in this country. In particular, my hon. Friend the Member for Clwyd South (Susan Elan Jones) has asked the Wales Office for a detailed analysis and to collate the data, so that we can have an evidence-based argument and put forward stronger cases.

[Iain Stewart]

That is one of the things that the Transport Committee is digging into, to ensure that we make a decision based on fact.

To those who oppose high-speed rail, I have seen evidence of threatening letters to some proponents of high-speed rail and some exaggerated claims. My plea to everyone is to stop it. This is the most significant strategic, long-term transport decision we will take for a generation, and it has got to be right. The project will outlive several Governments, of goodness knows what colour and composition, so the decision has got to be right and we must have agreement on it.

Secondly, I would like some reassurance from the Minister about the scope of the Department for Transport inquiry and that that inquiry is not a simple choice between the current High Speed 2 proposals and doing nothing, but that a range of other options can be considered. The Transport Committee has just returned from a visit to France and Germany to look at their high-speed networks. One conclusion that I came to is that what matters is not just building a line, but how it is connected into the existing rail network, the connectivity to the termini on the line, and how it fits in with the wider transport strategy involving freight and aviation. That is what makes high-speed rail a success or failure. We must look at it in the round.

The hon. Member for Clwyd South has mentioned Lille. Yes, it has been successful, but we found that that has often been at the expense of neighbouring towns. The French have recognised belatedly that better connectivity is needed to Lille, and that that is what drives the benefits.

Time precludes me from going into many of the other issues that I wanted to raise, but one is the operating speed of the route. High Speed 2 has been designed for an operating speed of 250 mph, but all the evidence from Europe, China and elsewhere is that although the trains can technically run at that speed, for all sorts of practical reasons they are limited to about 200 mph. That opens up the possibility of other route options. We can build High Speed 2, but not necessarily along the proposed route. The latest generation of Shinkansen bullet trains, which tilt, opens up the possibility of building lines alongside an existing transport corridor, such as the M1 or M40, which would mitigate much of the concern about environmental intrusion. That is what the Germans have done.

--- Later in debate ---

[Albert Owen (Ynys Môn) (Lab)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Gray. I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Clwyd South (Susan Elan Jones) on initiating this debate, and on her contribution, which set the right tone. I agree with the hon. Member for Milton Keynes South (Iain Stewart), who said that we need an evidence-based debate. We also need a debate that is led by hon. Members from throughout the United Kingdom, and this debate has provided that opportunity. It is hugely important to include peripheral areas such as the Isle of Anglesey, which I represent.

I will heed your advice, Mr Gray, and limit my contribution. I will not go into the full details of the history of the Irish mail from Euston to Kingstown via Holyhead, which started, as you will know, in 1848, when it took some 10 hours to get the mail from the centre of London to the centre of Holyhead, and then on fast ferries to the Republic of Ireland, which took two days.

Over the past 10 years, we have seen a huge reduction in the journey time between my constituency and London. When I was first elected some 10 years ago, it took more than five hours to get from Holyhead to Euston. It now takes three hours and 40 minutes, which is the result of investment in the west coast main line. We have more frequent—indeed hourly—trains to Chester, and although that is the wrong side of Offa’s Dyke, it provides a connection to north Wales, linking it with the major cities of Manchester and Birmingham via Crewe, and getting people and trade—which is vital—from the south-east to periphery areas. That is a sort of evidence base. I do not have the data, but when I make that journey of three hours and 40 minutes, I often speak with business people—many of them travel in first class and I travel in standard class, but we have the opportunity to speak. Organisations such as the CBI and others mention the benefits that investment in the west coast main line has brought to periphery areas such as north-west Wales. It is important to use that evidence and collate more data for the future to make a stronger case for high-speed rail, which I greatly support in principle.

I want to raise two issues with the Minister. I had the opportunity to speak to her about these matters a couple of weeks ago, but I would like her to respond on the record. In her opening remarks, my hon. Friend the Member for Clwyd South pointed to the position of the Secretary of State for Wales. I do not want to personalise the issue, but we need a strong voice at the Cabinet table to represent Wales and to set out the benefits that a high-speed network throughout the United Kingdom would bring to Wales. I hope that the Minister will ask her colleagues in government whether an analysis has been made of those benefits by the Wales Office, because that is its role. We are talking about strategic rail travel in the United Kingdom, and it is important that the people of Wales have a voice at the Cabinet table.

[Steve Baker (Wycombe) (Con)]

Perhaps I have not followed the hon. Gentleman’s argument, but it is not clear why the proposed Y-shape route will benefit Wales. Will he recap his point?

[Albert Owen]

I am sorry that the hon. Gentleman was not listening; I was providing evidence that investment in the west coast main line has benefited the peripheries. Joining up periphery areas with main lines and having faster trains will get people and trade to those areas. I thought that the Government were in favour of that; I have supported them in that and in the idea of spreading wealth and prosperity throughout the United Kingdom. The idea is not new—it happened in Victorian times, which is why I gave the example of the Irish mail. The Victorians recognised the importance of Dublin. This Government have bailed out the Irish Government because they understand the importance of trade links with Ireland. It is important to have full integration between all parts of the United Kingdom and our near neighbours.

[Andrea Leadsom (South Northamptonshire) (Con)]

Does the hon. Gentleman agree, as he seems to suggest, that there is not enough evidence to prove the benefits of regeneration outside the areas at the two ends of the proposed initial line, and that far more work needs to be done to provide evidence of those benefits? If the issue is about curing the north-south divide, the case is simply not proven.

[Albert Owen]

The hon. Lady is coming at the matter from the wrong angle. I am saying that the huge investment over the past 10 years has brought benefits to periphery areas but that the data have not been put into one package to make the case.

[Andrea Leadsom]

rose—

[Albert Owen]

I am not going to give way again, because of the time restraint. We need to look thoroughly at the benefits to the whole United Kingdom, but there is no doubt that connecting periphery areas with main line stations works. We have seen that in Europe and in other areas.

[Andrea Leadsom]

rose—

[Albert Owen]

I am not going to give way again. I appreciate that the hon. Lady has her opinion, but I am trying to make my views heard. I hope that she and the hon. Member for Wycombe (Steve Baker) have understood my argument. I will move on, but I believe that the Minister should press the Secretary of State for Wales and the Wales Office to make a proper analysis of the benefits of high-speed rail for Wales.

My second point is more negative, because we should also look at the disadvantages of the scheme. Will the Minister look at the issue in the context of Euston station, where the redevelopment for the high-speed rail link would take place? I know that the Transport Committee heard evidence about that yesterday, but the case for high-speed rail would be slightly undermined if there were to be a long period of redevelopment at Euston. As was said yesterday, it would take up to eight years to redevelop that station, and services to the north-west and north Wales would be cut during that period. I know that the Minister will look at all the options, but perhaps she could look at undergrounding or some other way to alleviate the problem with main line stations such as Euston in the future. I know that the Minister is keen for the project to proceed; she has listened and is in tune with what hon. Members are saying throughout the United Kingdom. I ask her, however, to look at the issue of Euston and put pressure on her colleague, the Secretary of State for Wales, to make the case for Wales.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mrs Villiers]

No.

Several points were made—

[Albert Owen]

Will the Minister give way?

[Mrs Villiers]

I am afraid I really do not have time. We have had a good debate.

[Albert Owen]

On the Welsh Office.

[Mrs Villiers]

I am sorry; I have many points to respond to, and only about another seven minutes—[Hon. Members: “Four minutes.”]—four minutes.

There was strong support from my hon. Friends the Members for Weaver Vale (Graham Evans), for Warrington South (David Mowat), and for Pudsey (Stuart Andrew). I also note the support of my hon. Friend the Member for Elmet and Rothwell (Alec Shelbrooke). A fundamental reason for our need for high-speed rail is to deliver the capacity we need to meet the growing demand for inter-city travel. Despite significant capacity upgrades in recent years, with more to come on the west coast, Network Rail predicts that the line will be pretty much full by 2024. That saturation point could come earlier. If we fail to provide the capacity we need, we will significantly hinder economic growth and worsen the north-south divide. No Government can afford to sit back and ignore that. High-speed rail can provide the capacity we need, as well as shrinking journey times between our major population centres, spreading prosperity and creating jobs, without a net increase in carbon emissions. As the hon. Member for Cambridge (Dr Huppert) said, that is just the sort of sustainable growth we need.

High-speed rail will reshape our economic geography and start to tackle and reduce the economic divide between north and south, as my hon. Friends the Members for Lancaster and Fleetwood and for Pudsey pointed out. The full Y-shaped network is expected to generate about £44 billion for the economy. We are convinced that high-speed rail will do a tremendous amount to integrate the economies of Manchester, Sheffield and Leeds, and to spread prosperity well beyond the cities that are directly served by the line, including destinations in north Wales. As the hon. Member for Clwyd South pointed out, examples such as Lille show that those regeneration benefits are felt well beyond the cities that are directly served by the stations. We believe that the country should aspire for the future to a genuinely national network, which we hope, of course, will include Wales and Scotland. However, long before that point, passengers in Scotland are expected to benefit significantly from shorter journey times resulting from the Y-shaped network, with journeys of 3.5 hours from Glasgow and Edinburgh to London providing an attractive alternative to flights, as highlighted by the hon. Member for Rutherglen and Hamilton West (Tom Greatrex).

North Wales is also likely to benefit as a result of the project we are considering today, because of a GDP boost resulting from taking high-speed rail to Birmingham and then on to the north-west, with benefits in inward investment and tourism. We are determined to do as much as we can to respond to the points that have been made today about the importance of ensuring good connections from the conventional network into new HS2 services. That is one way in which we will succeed in spreading the benefits as widely as possible. Such good connections should enable north Wales passengers to benefit from faster journey times. HS2 would also release capacity on the existing network, benefiting north Wales and destinations in the west and east midlands and the north of England, including Northampton—

Coastguard Service

Albert Owen Excerpts

Tuesday 14th June 2011 Westminster Hall

[Bill Esterson]

I do not need lectures from the Minister about what I must and must not do. He should really think through what he is saying before he makes that sort of comment, because I am asking questions about the kind of assessment and analysis that was carried out about the impact of these plans, and about the process that was gone through when the original proposals were drawn up. This issue is of grave concern to many staff, many members of the public and many people who rely on the coastguard. It is about what analysis was done on a range of issues related to the ability of all the emergency services to protect the public. I am asking about that.

I say again that in a downturn—in tough economic times—charitable giving falls. We have already seen evidence of that. I do not know what the situation is with the RNLI. That is why I am asking the Minister about the RNLI. It is a very important question and I would be very worried if the Minister did not consider it so.

[Albert Owen (Ynys Môn) (Lab)]

I will declare an interest. I am a member of the council of the RNLI, so I know that there really are concerns about charitable giving. Obviously, that issue is separate from the issue of the Government plans. However, the evidence given to the Transport Committee inquiry—this was said very clearly—was that in the consultation about these cuts only about four or five of the hundreds of RNLI stations across the country gave evidence. Privately, many RNLI members are concerned about the level of cuts and the disappearance of local knowledge. That is a fact. If anyone talks to RNLI members, volunteers and full-time crew members, they will find that they are concerned about the impact that these cuts will have on local knowledge and on their operations.

[Bill Esterson]

My hon. Friend has addressed some of the wider issues that the Minister raised with me. I had been looking at the issue of funding, and we have heard evidence that there is concern about that issue. The point that I was making was about the way that the Government proposals were drawn up, but my hon. Friend makes a much wider point about the impact of the loss of local knowledge and the concerns that the RNLI has raised about that issue. I think that we will discuss local knowledge in greater depth shortly.

--- Later in debate ---

[Albert Owen (Ynys Môn) (Lab)]

Thank you, Dr McCrea, for calling hon. Members from all four nations to make a contribution this morning. I join you in paying tribute to the hon. Member for South East Cornwall (Sheryll Murray) for her contribution to the debate and for the courage she has shown not just today but over the year she has been a Member of Parliament. When I have been in the Chair, I have seen her contributions to debates on fishing, coastguard and coastal issues. She brings experience, knowledge and a forthright and honest opinion that we need in such discussions.

This is an important debate. The linking and co-ordination between the coastguard and other emergency services is just as important as the coastguard’s internal co-ordination among the different stations. It is absolutely vital that that happens. I welcome the fact that the Minister has been listening through the long debates we have had since December and that the Government are prepared to pause and to look again at the proposals and the consultations. That is what we were calling for originally, and I think we have achieved that.

If the Minister had taken up my offer of coming to Holyhead station, he would have been very welcome. He could have seen at first hand not just the best practice of that coastguard station, but the co-ordination with other emergency services that takes place. Throughout the process, I have argued that, as a local station, Holyhead is strategically important to the whole of the Welsh coastline and, indeed, the Irish sea. The hon. Member for South Down (Ms Ritchie) talked about the Irish link. That has been very important for Holyhead and RAF Valley. I want to talk about the search and rescue at RAF Valley, which is the headquarters of search and rescue for the whole of the United Kingdom. It moved there from a different part of the country because of the strategic importance of Anglesey to the whole of the United Kingdom—it is equal distance from many places in the north and the south—and also to the west in Ireland. Search and rescue at RAF Valley has been involved in scrambling to some very important rescues and incidents.

It is important and timely that we have this debate in an open and honest manner because although we are all talking about local knowledge and our local stations, we have been mindful—I pay tribute to every Member who has taken part in such debates since December—not to put down other coastguard stations. We have stressed the importance of our own areas and their strategic importance to the whole coastguard family in the United Kingdom.

In the short time available, I just want to give the Minister a few examples—I appreciate that we are rushed for time, otherwise I would have elaborated further—of the strategic importance of Holyhead in terms of search and rescue and the Royal National Lifeboat Institution. On the record, I have to say that I speak regularly—on a weekly basis—with members, crews, volunteers and full-time crew members of the RNLI and that, as I indicated, I am a member of the RNLI’s general council. They are concerned that they did not get the opportunity to have their views put openly into the system, but that they were channelled through the RNLI. As I said, and as was pointed out in the evidence session to the Select Committee, only four or five out of 100 RNLI stations took part in the consultation. We have not, therefore, had a true flavour of the opinions of the RNLI.

[Naomi Long]

In Northern Ireland, many of those who work for the coastguard also volunteer for the RNLI, so the loss of personnel would have a direct implication for RNLI services.

[Albert Owen]

The hon. Lady makes an important point. Some people volunteer for both, or have members of their family who are in each of the emergency voluntary services. I want to echo the importance of that co-ordination. Time saves lives. Sir Alan Massey, the chief executive of the MCA, has said that there would be some time delay—he has been honest enough to acknowledge that. That could translate into the loss of lives if local knowledge and expertise is gone due to the closure of local stations.

We all want a modernised MCA with improved technology for the 21st century, but that must not be at the expense of closing local stations and losing local knowledge. I have been consistent in making that argument for many years. When my hon. Friend the Member for Poplar and Limehouse (Jim Fitzpatrick) was the Minister and was given advice by the MCA, he carefully and rightly ignored it to an extent—not all of it—because this needed to be done properly. We now have an opportunity for a proper and open debate to look at all these issues. The consultation paper and the proposals, which the Government produced jointly with the MCA, did not allow that to happen. We have moved beyond that and we are having a better informed debate. The Government and the Minister can now come to the right decision, which is to retain the best coastguard services we have, retain local knowledge and enhance it with new technology and the best station personnel. They must improve the confidence, morale and abilities of station personnel, but also the co-ordination with the other emergency services, which are facing tough times themselves. As the Minister knows, the future of the search and rescue service has been put on hold and there is uncertainty. That causes great anxiety not just among the search and rescue people within the RAF, the MCA and the Royal Navy, but in the RNLI and other services—the family of search of rescue.

[Simon Hart (Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire) (Con)]

Does the hon. Gentleman agree that public expectation and public confidence is critical to the Government’s overall direction of travel?

[Albert Owen]

Absolutely. I echo the point, made by hon. Members in their speeches and interventions, that the coastguard service personnel, volunteers and full-time, and the RNLI are important members of those communities too. They have strong links with other emergency services.

For the benefit of the Minister and the shadow Minister, I would like to highlight the link with the fire service. I recall a ferry adrift in Holyhead which had 1,200 to 1,400 people on board, and which had lost control. The local knowledge of the coastguard got the fire service there immediately. I have taken part in exercises with the fire service. I do not have the time to go into it, but of course the ship’s crew think that they tackle things better and that the firemen just get seasick when they come on board the vessels, and the firemen think that they do things better. The serious point is that there is regular dialogue and liaison between those important services. That could be—I believe would be—lost if we closed local stations and lost local expertise and knowledge. Time saves lives, and I think that the Minister understands that and wants to move forward. I want to work with him, and with other hon. Members, to have those strategic, important coastguard stations enhanced to do the job for the 21st century.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mike Penning]

I am conscious that colleagues have, rightly, used most of the time available, and I am also conscious that I may repeat what has been said again and perhaps again and again, but I will not give way because I have about nine minutes left, and I want to cover the issues, especially those that are slightly different from those that arose around the country.

I praise the hon. Member for Sefton Central, because the debate is important, and its title has helped me. I was not aware that there were problems regarding the roles of the Merseyside fire and rescue service and Her Majesty’s Maritime and Coastguard Agency on the Mersey estuary, especially involving mud rescues. That was interesting, but I understand now, and with some impetus from the debate and perhaps a bit of size 10 from me they will be resolved. Clearly, there is duplication in who co-ordinates the service.

May I tell my hon. Friend the Member for South East Cornwall that although I represent a landlocked constituency, I was a member of the fire and rescue service in Essex, and was based at a coastal station for many years? About the third major incident that I went to was a freighter fire. As the shadow Minister, my friend the hon. Member for Poplar and Limehouse (Jim Fitzpatrick)—he is my friend—knows, that is one of the most frightening experiences.

We heard that there is often a difference of opinion between the crew of a ship and the firemen about how best to put out a fire. That is not surprising, because firemen have a habit of chucking a huge amount of water at fires—that is what we are trained to do—and if you do that to a fire on a ship, it tends to sink. Such instances have happened around the world. There is a debate about what should be done about fires at sea. It is right that that debate is taking place, and it is happening around the world. The truth of the matter is that it is enormously dangerous to put fire crews on to ships at sea to fight fires, and we must make a decision between lives, cargo, pollution and other issues.

I met Roy Wilsher, the country’s lead fire officer and Chief Fire Officer of Hertfordshire the other day and we discussed where we are with the agreements in place, and where we should be.

[Albert Owen]

As an ex-merchant seaman, but a humble rating, I understand the dangers, as does the Minister from his perspective. My point referred to a master mariner—they must decide whether to abandon ship, or to protect cargo or the environment—who raised directly with me the importance of coastguard stations’ local knowledge. That is why I raised the matter in this debate.

[Mike Penning]

Such concerns were properly raised in the debate, and the shadow Minister raised the issue of fighting fires at sea, which was also important.

Another issue was the future of emergency towing vessels, and negotiations are continuing. We intend to terminate the contract, which costs £10 million a year, in September, and I am fixed in that position, because if I move one iota, the commercial sector and everyone else will say that I have gone soft, but they do not have to cough up the money. The key is where the risk is.

Coastguard Service

Albert Owen Excerpts

Thursday 24th March 2011 Westminster Hall

[Albert Owen (Ynys Môn) (Lab)]

It is a great pleasure to follow the right hon. and learned Member for North East Fife (Sir Menzies Campbell), who referred to a public meeting that the MCA hosted. I attended the meeting in Holyhead, which was a public relations disaster for the MCA. I shall refer to it a little later.

The right hon. and learned Gentleman is right that no answers were given. There were many questions, and many knowledgeable people attended, including ex-seafarers who I worked with when I was in the merchant navy, and retired master mariners with direct experience of working with the coastguard. He makes an important point about those meetings, which I am sure the Minister will have heard. I echo what the right hon. and learned Gentleman said.

I congratulate the hon. Member for Truro and Falmouth (Sarah Newton) on securing another debate on the subject. However, I would have liked not only a debate on the Floor of the House, but an oral statement from the Minister, so that we could put direct questions to him. He is a reasonable person, and I believe that he would have been making exactly these same arguments had the previous Government made an announcement of such national importance and magnitude when he was in opposition. Discussing the mass closure of some of our coastguard stations is of significant national importance.

The Minister and I have had a brief private conversation about these matters, but I invite him to come to Holyhead in my constituency. I know that he has been to other places, but, as a fair man, he should go to all that face closure. The— [Interruption.] It is not impossible. There are only nine, so it is very possible. I have attended rallies in two or three places in a short period—the hon. Member for Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire (Simon Hart) will vouch for that—so it is possible. However, it is also important, because these are difficult decisions.

The Maritime and Coastguard Agency chief executive has been to those places. He has been very courteous, and we have had public meetings, but we have not had answers. It is important for the Minister to have direct contact with the people who work in our coastguard stations around the country so that he can dispel any myth that we are just whingeing Members of Parliament. He would hear people’s opinions first hand.

[Bill Esterson]

I asked the Minister to come to the House to make a statement so that we could have that cross-examination. Does my hon. Friend agree that it would be helpful if the Minister did that at the end of the consultation, when he announces his findings? Will he come to the House and make a statement so that we can have that conversation?

[Albert Owen]

I am grateful to my hon. Friend for that intervention; I am sure that the Minister heard what he said. Again, because of the importance of the issue, it would be in the Government’s interest to take questions on the Floor of the House. That would be a strong statement that they are indeed listening to the views of MPs.

The extension is welcome and it provides people with opportunities, but cynics among us, including me, would say that 5 May is an important day. It is a day of big elections in Wales, Scotland, Northern Ireland and many parts of England. I am sure that that was not the intention of the Minister, but cynics will be led to believe that it might have been a circumstance— [Interruption.] I am certainly not the only one. I can give empirical evidence of candidates who were on the lists for north Wales, for instance, who, when the announcement was made, said that the proposals would improve safety—Liberal Democrats and Conservatives were going with the Government line at the time—and that there would be no front-line closures. They received hundreds of e-mails, and, within weeks of receiving them, they were saying, “It’s a disgrace that the coastguard stations are closing.” That should be borne in mind. Cynics would arrive at the conclusion that people have done somersaults because of public pressure.

[Sarah Newton]

I am very disappointed with the line that the hon. Gentleman is taking, because there is genuine concern about the matter the length and breadth of the country. For him to turn it into a political football is most disappointing. The point has been well made by several Members that there are significant inaccuracies in the document. On the face of it, that document made a compelling argument. It was not until all of us had an opportunity to read it in detail and consult with our coastguards that the problems came up. I hope that he will refrain from taking that line. This has been an all-party, whole-House debate.

[Albert Owen]

I am sorry that the hon. Lady is upset by some of the truths I have just said. Candidates made statements to coastguards—not to me, but to coastguards—that the proposals were in their long-term interests and that our coastlines would be safer, and then had to retract them because of public pressure. That happens to be a fact, and I am sorry that it upsets her. I am a consensus politician, and I work with people from all parties, but that does not change the fact that the electorate in those areas are cynical about the somersaults done by some of the candidates. However, I shall move on.

[Mrs Ellman]

Does my hon. Friend welcome the fact that the Transport Committee is about to conduct an investigation on this very issue? That follows concerns expressed from all parts of the House and a session that the Committee had with the chief executive of the Maritime and Coastguard Agency in which we put certain questions to him, but were not satisfied with the answers.

[Albert Owen]

Absolutely. That will be my next point, but it does not detract from my first.

My second point is that the proposals from the Government and the MCA should be scrapped. The all-party Transport Committee is inquiring in detail into the workings of the MCA, and that inquiry is a good basis for the beginning of a debate, not the end of a consultation process. Detailed arguments from maritime experts, coastguards and people from coastal communities can be fed into the inquiry, which will be thorough.

[Sarah Newton]

Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

[Albert Owen]

The hon. Lady would not take interventions, so she is pushing it, but I am a gentleman, and in a spirit of consensus, I will give way.

[Sarah Newton]

I appreciate that. I made it clear that I would not take interventions because, during the first debate, I had a huge amount of time to make the case for Falmouth coastguard. On this occasion, I wanted to ensure that as many hon. Members as possible could make their case and put their concerns.

Does the hon. Gentleman agree that, on the extension of the consultation period, the Minister has said that if the Select Committee can expedite its work, all its findings will be taken into consideration? Furthermore, he has also said that at the close of the extended consultation there will be an additional period for proposals to be properly communicated, discussed and scrutinised.

[Albert Owen]

I am grateful for that intervention, and I hope that the Minister will indeed respond on the issues that I am raising about the Transport Committee, because they are important. We learned lessons from the 2003-04 inquiry, and we must learn lessons now. I am greatly in favour of the inquiry, and I wrote to the Chair of the Select Committee asking for such an inquiry. Perhaps the hon. Lady and the Minister will confirm that they are willing to wait until they have received the inquiry’s report and the Government’s response before making any decisions. That would be a positive way forward and I hope the Minister will comment on it. It would be not a way out for the Government, but a way forward for the coastguards, which is why we are all here today.

A debate needs the input of local coastguards. I agree with the Minister that coastguards, certainly in my area, have not been restricted in speaking their minds and saying what they think of the proposals. That is to his credit and that of the MCA. On top of the consultation, I have encouraged coastguards to write in, but that does not deter me from believing that these flawed proposals should be put to one side, so that we can have a proper debate, including on the Select Committee’s findings.

I make no apology for referring to local knowledge, as many hon. Members have done. It is essential, and as an ex-seafarer who worked on the coast for some 10 years and was also foreign-going, I know that our coastguard services provide some of the safest coastlines and seas in the world. I am proud of what they do, and I want it to continue and improve. Local knowledge is vital to initial responses, to knowing locations and, in north Wales, to the pronunciation of such locations.

During the first debate, I had a brief opportunity to speak—I say that to the hon. Member for Truro and Falmouth—and the Minister gave a written response to one of my questions, although it was not adequate. I will provide evidence of why it was not adequate. He said that pronunciation of place names would be sorted out by a new geographic information system, which would include phonetic spellings. I will give an example—empirical evidence—of where that has failed. I am raising the matter to help him.

The incident occurred during the coastguards’ dispute. The MCA said that the circumstances were exceptional, but it highlights the fact that people outside who do not have local knowledge might make errors, which might cost time, and perhaps lives.

[Mrs Anne McGuire (Stirling) (Lab)]

The problem is not just phonetics or pronunciation. In Wales and in Scotland—the hon. Member for Na h-Eileanan an Iar (Mr MacNeil) is here—there are different languages, which are used to describe the areas where people fish and that tankers run through. Knowledge of the geography of an area is important, but so is understanding the basis of the language.

[Albert Owen]

I am grateful to my right hon. Friend for raising the issue of language. I wish to refer to the Welsh language and phonetics in relation to place names.

My first example is, fortunately, an empty canoe that was drifting of Morfa Nefyn in Gwynedd, which the coastguard had to spell phonetically as “mor fen evon” and which he wrote down as Morefen Effon. I shall give the Hansard reporters the correct pronunciations because I would not expect them to have that local knowledge, but the serious issue is that outside people would not be able to local Morfa Nefyn. A holidaymaker had failed to look after their canoe, which drifted off, but if the incident had been serious, and if someone had fallen out of it, they might have been lost for ever. I am making a serious point. I am grateful to the Minister for giving me the information, but the proposals would not have been adequate in such a situation and no team could have been tasked for that one.

In another incident at Cemaes in my constituency, in the north of Anglesey, a casualty had fallen down a 20-foot cliff. Like many parts of Wales and of the United Kingdom, we have some great coastal walks. According to the incident log, it took 13 minutes to make a decision, and the Holyhead coastguard was given the task when there was an initial response team located at Cemaes itself. That added to the time taken to respond. Following the request being made by the initial response team and Cemaes being paged, a staggering 48 minutes had passed since the initial call was made.

The terrain was so bad that a helicopter had to be scrambled for safe evacuation, and the irony is that the 22 Squadron search-and-rescue helicopter was just down the road on Anglesey. If there had been local knowledge, the scramble would have happened instantly and the victim’s injuries would have been less serious. My point about time factors is important. When RAF Valley was tasked to go to the incident, it was 68 minutes later.

[Dr Sarah Wollaston (Totnes) (Con)]

I agree with the hon. Gentleman, but the problem is not always pronunciation. Sometimes there are problems with the sheer number of locations with the same name and spelling. We have 12 Cod rocks in my area, and someone local wrote to me recently about a serious incident when he was stranded off Cod rock.

[Albert Owen]

I am grateful to the hon. Lady for that intervention, but I have moved on from pronunciation to actual mistakes.

My third and final example of problems with place names is extremely important. It involves a call to ambulance control about a person in the water at Tywyn in Meirionnydd in Gwynedd, but the Rhyl coastguard team was scrambled and departed to Towyn in Conwy. I hope that the hon. Lady is listening, because she has just intervened on this point. Towyn and Tywyn are 80 miles apart. It was realised that a mistake had been made, but it was some 16 minutes later that the air ambulance picked up the victim. That is serious and those examples are evidence.

The Minister may check that those incidents happened, because they were logged as errors. They are good examples of what might happen if outside areas were involved. In my area, the suggestion is that there might be a hub at Liverpool or Belfast, but they, let alone the marine operation centres at Aberdeen and on the Solent, could certainly not deal with such incidents. It would be impossible to have Welsh or Gaelic speakers in all those locations all the time. Local knowledge is extremely important and I make no apology for describing those incidents to the House.

Holyhead is the busiest seaport on the western seaboard and an extremely important location. It is a long way from Swansea, which would be the only day centre left open in Wales. I say to the Minister that coastal tourism must be factored into the matter, because many people go to the coast for their holidays and they need to know that coastguard stations are manned by people with local experience and local knowledge.

The flawed consultation document of 16 December was vague on leisure activities. Does the Minister have detailed information that was not in the consultation document about the different levels of leisure incident that have taken place? I know that some larger vessels have technical equipment—certainly, they are improving—but we must also consider walkers, sailors, climbers, hikers and people who go out on sea beds and drift away. We need that information, because a growing number of people are visiting our coastlines and they do not have the satellite equipment that is carried by, for example, many larger vessels.

There has also been growth in the number of incidents. The consultation document states that there has been a 25% increase in coastguard incidents off the United Kingdom coastline over the past five years alone. We have a growing industry that will be threatened by the mass closure of coastguard stations.

I understand that in 2009— [Interruption.] I am sorry, Mr Crausby, but I must refer to the MCA, who are smiling as I raise those issues. It is not helpful for coastguard officials to smile during this debate. I am not smiling, and I am sure the Minister would not be happy to see it. I am providing empirical evidence and giving my opinion on behalf of coastguard stations along the coast. I have experience of coastal communities and have worked at sea, so I do not like to see this happening and it is not fair. A degree of arrogance is coming from senior MCA managers towards local knowledge, and that is being echoed by somebody smiling at me while I am making pertinent points in the debate.

I support the upgrade and the modernisation of technology. That needs to happen and in the 21st century we must have more than two stations talking to each other; we need a fully integrated system. I back that idea and the review carried out by my hon. Friend the Member for Poplar and Limehouse (Jim Fitzpatrick), when he was Minister responsible for shipping, on improving the conditions and wages of coastguards. That needs to be looked at, but it is not necessary to have a mass closure programme to improve the safety of our coastlines.

Even at this eleventh hour, I appeal to the Minister to scrap the proposals, await the Transport Committee report and listen to what people—whether Members of Parliament or members of the public—have been saying. We need a proper debate so that we can improve our coastguard services and have confidence in an improved, 21st-century technology. We must have the safest coastlines so that people can feel safe, whether they ply their trade at sea or use the sea for recreational purposes. I know that the Minister wants that outcome. It is certainly the outcome that I want, but there are better ways of achieving it than having this flawed consultation.

[Several hon. Members]

rose—

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Adrian Sanders (Torbay) (LD)]

May I say what a pleasure it is to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Crausby?

It is disappointing that this debate was switched from the main Chamber, as the subject could have been debated on a substantive motion. I find that Governments respond much more positively to substantive motions from time to time. However, I am sure that the Minister will be an exception.

The proposed reconfiguration of Her Majesty’s coastguard is of great concern to my constituents, as it is to those of other hon. Members. Although the consultation document published by the Maritime and Coastguard Agency is still open to comment from the public, the agency’s proposals appear severely to undermine the ability of the coastguard service to ensure

“safer lives, safer ships, and cleaner seas”.

Within an evolving maritime environment, I believe that the agency is right to reassess the efficacy of the coastguard service, to ensure that search and rescue teams can perform to the best of their ability. However, I fear that the current proposals, which are aimed at reforming the operating model of the coastguard, could reduce its capability to manage the use of our seas and protect those who live alongside them. I strongly believe that plans to replace the existing 19 centres with nine centres, of which only four will operate on a 24-hour basis, will significantly weaken the ability to conduct search and rescue operations. Plans to establish two nationally networked maritime operations centres would leave just six sub-centres spread thinly around the country’s coast, and most of them would operate only during the day.

The closure of 10 maritime rescue co-ordination centres would have a direct effect on my constituency of Torbay, which is currently protected by the Brixham centre. It provides an invaluable service to mariners and coastal users by receiving incoming distress calls, alerting the appropriate rescue assets and co-ordinating rescue efforts over the 130 miles of coastline of Devon and Cornwall. Under these proposals, the Brixham centre would be closed within two years, and that would have heavy repercussions for constituents and all who come to enjoy the south-west coast.

The most critical threat posed by the centralisation of the coastguard service is the considerable loss of local knowledge. Operators in local centres have a detailed understanding of the requirements of local communities and a strong knowledge of the key features of the local district. Operators in Brixham, as elsewhere in the country, obtain and maintain a high level of local knowledge by walking the coastal terrain, interpreting the topography and learning the tides and coastal hot spots, to understand the associated dangers in the region.

When search and rescue co-ordinators are faced with multiple incidents, as is often the case during the busy summer months in the south-west, it is crucial that distress calls receive prioritisation. Prompt and successful rescue missions are possible only if the operators have a high degree of local knowledge upon which they can make sound assessments. Of course, the proposed maritime operations centres may very well be better connected to larger vessels, where local knowledge is arguably less important.

The vast majority of search and rescue missions involve the leisure industry. This is where local knowledge is vital. Thousands of holidaymakers descend upon the south-west coast during the summer months, and many families make use of small craft and inflatable toys and enjoy our inshore waters, beaches, cliffs and coastal walks. On a recent visit to the Brixham maritime co-ordination centre, I was told by staff that on too many occasions children have been swept out to sea, people have been thrown overboard, swimmers have got into trouble, divers have gone missing, people have got into difficulty on rocks or cliffs and that any number of other life-threatening incidents have happened within the boundaries of my constituency when they had to act. In such instances time is critical; it is essential that operators know exactly where the incident is unfolding to ensure that the correct search and rescue asset is deployed to the correct location.

According to the consultation document, the loss of local knowledge is to be replaced by on-call coastal safety officers and the questionable modernisation of computer-based technology. Additionally, the RNLI and local coastguards will be expected to continue to hold the requisite local knowledge. That will require high-quality volunteer training from the Maritime and Coastguard Agency to ensure the integrity of information passed to the maritime operations centres.

[Albert Owen]

The hon. Gentleman makes a powerful point about the importance of coastguard volunteers and the RNLI. I declare an interest as a council member of the RNLI. The coastguard volunteers have spoken to me about the local knowledge that senior coastguard officers have of their shift patterns. That is a serious matter, because the officers know not to call them directly on certain days. That local knowledge could be lost if the coastguard stations in the vicinity close and no one knows the individuals or teams in question.

[Mr Sanders]

Many hon. Members have made precisely that point, and made it very well indeed.

Assuming that it is delivered, the significant amount of communication between operators and local volunteers needed to confirm that the correct actions are taken will lengthen the process of the search and rescue mission and place lives at risk. The over-reliance of these proposals on upgraded technology is another matter of concern. If new technology is fully integrated, the availability of video mapping and local tidal information covering the entire 11,000 miles of the UK’s coastline will undoubtedly improve existing services. Why can those systems not be installed and integrated within the existing structure? It is essential that the software can determine a unique position when the information is provided by those involved in an emergency. Given the large number of coastal locations with the same or similar name and often without a postcode, it is essential that human knowledge is involved in the process.

Despite constant reference to upgrading software and fully exploiting the capacity of existing technology, I remain unconvinced that a centralised maritime operation centre could effectively manage the large volume of emergency calls that can be expected during busy operation periods. Moreover, fire and rescue control rooms were only required to operate one communications system with their units. However, the mix of communications systems needed to operate search and rescue is far more complex, including very high frequency, medium frequency, satellite, mobile phone and pager systems and landlines. The enormous additional work load of the data processing element of operations officers’ activities has not been fully evaluated.

--- Later in debate ---

[Sarah Newton (Truro and Falmouth) (Con)]

On behalf of all hon. Members who have attended this afternoon’s debate, I want to thank the Minister for such a helpful response. I will not take all the credit for today’s debate. I worked with a team of hon. Members, whose names are listed on the Order Paper, to secure the debate. I hope that as many hon. Members who have participated today—particularly those who did not have the opportunity to speak, or who felt under pressure and did not have the full amount of time—will join us on Tuesday to make further representations to the Backbench Business Committee to make sure that we secure more parliamentary time in the main Chamber. Today’s debate has demonstrated the strength of feeling and the range of issues that still need to be explored on this UK-wide issue, which is one of the unique occasions when we can represent all the people of the UK in Parliament.

[Albert Owen]

Had the Minister had more time, I am sure that he would have been able to answer this point, but does the hon. Lady agree that it would be helpful to have a breakdown of incidents, so that we know what kind of incidents the MCA is dealing with? That would be an important appendix to the extended consultation.

[Sarah Newton]

I will pass that question straight on to the Minister to answer.

Search and Rescue Service

Albert Owen Excerpts

Tuesday 1st March 2011 Westminster Hall

[Jim Fitzpatrick (Poplar and Limehouse) (Lab)]

It is a great pleasure to see you in the Chair today, Mr Gray. I am delighted to follow the hon. Member for Westmorland and Lonsdale (Tim Farron) and I congratulate the right hon. Member for Berwick-upon-Tweed (Sir Alan Beith) on securing this important and timely debate. Given that this whole policy began under the previous Administration, the right hon. Gentleman cautioned me about the scope of my remarks. I fully acknowledge that, so my remarks will be relatively brief.

Let me begin by adding my tribute, and a tribute from the Opposition, to the air sea rescue service and all those involved in search and rescue across the country. The Minister and I are former fire fighters, so we were part of that industry in a very big way, and we recognise the conspicuous role that these brave men and women play in all aspects of search and rescue across the country.

It would have been better if the Minister had opened this debate, because we could all have commented on what he said. The right hon. Gentleman could have stood up and just said, “What’s happening, Minister?” What we want to find out is where we go from here. There is a lot of interest and concern about that across the country, not least from the Palace. A few months ago, we heard in Prime Minister’s questions that there had been royal lobbying on the matter. I suspect that the Minister’s speech has been proofread not only by the lawyers but by officials at No.10 who will want to make sure that he is careful in his responses to us today.

The right hon. Member for Berwick-upon-Tweed outlined the history of this matter very effectively and explained why it is so important. The questions originally were about the split command structure and the fact that although this process is led by the Department for Transport, the Ministry of Defence has an important role to play. That is why there is duality and why the Minister, who is a Transport Minister, is in the driving seat. However, the Maritime and Coastguard Agency, the Royal Navy and the Royal Air Force all make contributions. There are other issues: the life expectancy of helicopters; European regulations and terms of employment, and the PFI replacement programme for helicopters. All those factors have made it very complicated to try to unlock and disentangle the sector. With information emerging about irregularities in the tendering of the contract, the Government had no option but to stop the tendering process and review it. As the right hon. Gentleman logically said, we need answers as quickly as possible about where we go now.

The questions that I would have asked have already been asked. They included questions about the durability of the existing helicopter fleet—for example, how long that fleet will last and whether it will last until the new arrangements are put in place. The issue of 24-hour cover was raised by the right hon. Gentleman and the hon. Member for Westmorland and Lonsdale, who both spoke before me. There have also been questions in recent months about the use of armed forces pilots as part of the pilot provision for the search and rescue service, given that we must ensure that we have enough pilots for front-line services in Afghanistan and elsewhere. The right hon. Member for Yeovil (Mr Laws) also asked about the life expectancy of the Sea Kings and the upgrades that might happen.

[Albert Owen (Ynys Môn) (Lab)]

I thank my hon. Friend for giving way and I apologise for not being here for the start of the debate. I was unavoidably detained in Committee.

My hon. Friend has made a point about pilots. It is absolutely essential that there is clarity about that issue, because what we are seeing now is that RAF pilots, who have completed three quarters of their training and nearly finished it, are being withdrawn from service. The search and rescue service really needs the continuity that RAF bases, such as RAF Valley in my own constituency, provide. Those bases have an intake of pilots, who go elsewhere before coming back. The search and rescue service needs to know that the pilots at those bases will graduate. Does my hon. Friend agree that clarity about that issue must be provided now?

[Jim Fitzpatrick]

I agree with my hon. Friend that the issue of military pilots being used as part of the air-sea rescue service has been raised in recent months and that the loss of such pilots might impact on the ability of the MOD to perform front-line duties.

It is to the great credit of the control and management arrangements of the air-sea rescue service that although there are so many organisations involved—the RAF, the Royal Navy and the MCA—the service has worked so well. Obviously what we all want to see is whatever arrangements are put in place in future working equally well. However, given that the Government have been stopped in their tracks because of the irregularities in the tendering arrangements, questions are being asked by right hon. and hon. Members about where we go from here. Those questions are about how the Government intend to proceed in providing the service, including the new tendering arrangements, the use of the existing fleet, the potential upgrades and how long it might take the Minister and his colleagues to resolve these issues. Those are very big questions, but I know that the Minister has all the answers, as he usually has, and we are all waiting with bated breath to hear what they are.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mike Penning]

There are two separate processes, which is why, when I began my speech, I stated that there is what we need to do now and what we need to do in the future. I have just been passed a note with some information that I did not know, which is that the Secretary of State for Defence has already been in contact with AgustaWestland—last month—to see if we could engage with the company to consider how to extend the life of the Sea Kings beyond 2016. That is because of the interim short-term situation, and how we go forward. It was mentioned earlier that perhaps the most cost-effective way of doing that would be a major refit, taking us a long way forward, or we could do a shorter-term refit. Two separate projects have to take place, although I am not saying that the same people will or will not be on the working groups. The key is to get on with this now, so that we have the provision in place and can then go forward.

As to when the announcement was made and the reason why it was not made to the House first, it was, obviously a significant market announcement, which is why it had to be made to the stock exchange at 7 am. I am always passionate in the belief that things should be announced to the House, and I have done so myself on many occasions, but an announcement involving such a large private finance initiative had market significance, which is why it needed to be made, and was made, at 7 am.

I know the Falklands rather well. Sadly, several of my friends are there in war graves. Luckily or unluckily, when the Falklands war began, I was with the Grenadiers on spearhead, who were not deployed, but my friends in the Welsh and Scots Guards were. As my right hon. Friend knows, one of my closest friends is Simon Weston, who was disfigured and scarred while he was there and has done much work for charity since he came back. The Falklands is not affected by the PFI. The MOD will continue to provide air-sea rescue in the Falklands and will decide its future. It was never part of existing search and rescue helicopter procurement. There are still a lot of MOD and service personnel in the Falklands. I have flown in a Sea King down there in recent years, although not during my time in the armed forces.

We have mentioned the effects of service personnel and knowing what they are doing. Service personnel work on tours of duty. The original time scales involved in the PFI meant that they would have been beyond their tour of duty—the Prince would have been away from Wales, serving in whatever other duties Her Majesty had in mind for him—long before the changes took place. The MOD will, obviously, continue with its own tour of duty process. That is a matter for the MOD, not for me as a Transport Minister. As we enter the interim period with cover, I am sure that tours of duty will be addressed in many ways.

The hon. Member for North Antrim (Ian Paisley), who has left the Chamber, mentioned the interim contract for the coastguard. The existing MCA contract is not interim; civilians have been doing that work for many years. We need to find out what the interim contract is now, but the existing contracts are not interim. We can also learn a lot from the concerns about the MCA contract as we go forward. There are concerns involving the working time directive; I assure hon. Members that it is one of the pains of my life as a Minister. In the past couple of days, I signed off on a document exempting the military from certain things such as driving time, tachographs and so on. At the same time, the MOD manages brilliantly to provide cover within existing restraints. All of that will be part of the documents as we go forward with the concerns.

I do not want to pontificate for another half-hour, as there is not much more that I can say. We are conscious that there are concerns, and we as a Government are concerned. In a perfect world, this would never have happened. But we do not live in a perfect world and, sadly, an anomaly has occurred with the procurement programme that has created real concerns and legal ramifications. A huge amount of taxpayers’ money has been expended on the procurement programme, and we will be looking to recoup it, as it is not the fault of taxpayers or the Department for Transport. To be fair, the MOD, which was criticised earlier, could not have predicted that the persons involved would do what they did. I know that there are concerns about the MOD’s procurement programme—that is for the MOD to address—but the criticism that the MOD is to blame for what happen might not be right. Individuals are responsible, rather than the MOD.

[Albert Owen]

The Minister was right to pay tribute to those who maintain Sea Kings. Maintenance crews must be considered as well. They are concerned that under the PFI contract, many of them will not be retrained for any new helicopters procured. Will the Minister assure me, on his blank piece of paper, that that will be considered and that, in the interim, those highly skilled people working on air bases, including RAF Valley in my constituency, will have the opportunity to retrain for any new craft?

[Mike Penning]

I cannot give the hon. Gentleman those assurances, as I am not an MOD Minister, but the MOD will have heard those concerns, and I will ask someone there to write to him about them. It is clearly not in my portfolio to deal with armed forces staff. I, too, pay tribute to maintenance crews, which I have always found to be unsung heroes when I have visited the military around the world. When I visited Helmand last year, I saw that they worked astonishing hours to keep Chinooks, in particular, in the air. We should all realise that it is not just the helicopter pilots—the gung-ho guys—who do all the work; often, it is the ground crew that get them up in the skies to start with.

Sharing knowledge and working together with other emergency services, particularly in the voluntary sector, is crucial—whatever will happen in the future—as is happening now on the four civilianised bases. I must admit that many of the crew members whom I have met are ex-military; I do not think that I have met a single search and rescue helicopter pilot who is not. We have a wonderful training programme for them, but it is crucial that training and working-together exercises continue in the short and long term.

I am conscious of what hon. Members, especially the hon. Member for Westmorland and Lonsdale (Tim Farron), said about distance. It will always be an issue. We go out to sea some distances now to incidents, as in the constituency of my hon. Friend the Member for Truro and Falmouth (Sarah Newton), but interestingly, civilian aircraft—the ones that we have now, let alone the ones that we were considering procuring—can go much further and cover greater distances.

Of course, they can do only one job at a time. The shadow Minister and I are both ex-firemen. I did operations with air-sea rescue on the Thames estuary when I was in the fire service. When we were tied up there, we were tied up. When something is tied up, I am concerned to know whether we will have cover from the other bases, especially if the Sea Kings are vulnerable, as we know they are at times.

I do not want to drag out this debate for the sake of it. I am disappointed, as I am sure is my right hon. Friend the Member for Berwick-upon-Tweed, that more Members are not here for this 1.5 hour debate. As soon as we know more, we will say more, and we will be as open as we can throughout the procedure. However, at the end of the day, we are where we are. We will sort this mess out and ensure that the public are safe and that air-sea rescue is protected, as we all expect it to be, and cover is provided.