Alec Shelbrooke
Main Page: Alec Shelbrooke (Conservative - Elmet and Rothwell)(12 years, 6 months ago)
Commons ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text
Andrew Stunell
The hon. Gentleman reminds me that we sometimes make common cause on issues, and he is right to say there were concerns about that. The provision in question removes the proposal for non-binding referendums. Other proposals remain in the Bill, and the referendum to which the hon. Gentleman referred was, I believe, carried forward under the 2003 Act, which we are not amending.
I shall now turn to the amendment proposed by the hon. Members for Richmond Park (Zac Goldsmith), for Cleethorpes (Martin Vickers), for Brighton, Pavilion (Caroline Lucas), for Romsey and Southampton North (Caroline Nokes), for Clacton (Mr Carswell) and for Colne Valley (Jason McCartney)—and, I believe, supported by the hon. Members for Shipley (Philip Davies) and for Kettering (Mr Hollobone). It seeks to add to the Bill a scheme of binding local referendums. The Government are committed to giving people a greater say in how their communities are run, but we do not believe that it is sensible to introduce binding referendums on any subject that might arise. Given the potential scope of the local issues that binding referendums might cover and the many complex impacts that such a regime could have on local service delivery and local public finances, it would be unwise for there to be a presumption that all local referendums should be binding. There could be occasions where there are two competing referendums with potentially conflicting aims. There could be occasions where the course of action requested has significant cost implications and would have an adverse impact on the delivery of other services or priorities. Ultimately, it is the role of councillors to take decisions by balancing the various views of citizens alongside the needs of the community, particularly where there is no consensus, and those councillors are ultimately responsible to local people for their decisions through the ballot box. I hope the signatories to the amendment in question will air their points of view, but I hope they will not force a Division.
Alec Shelbrooke (Elmet and Rothwell) (Con)
I congratulate my hon. Friend on making those comments. It is important that such referendums be non-binding, especially when we consider cities such as Leeds, part of which I represent, where there are many diverse communities. In times of economic trouble, it is easy for a blame culture to arise, and I can envisage situations in which some might try to use hate in a referendum campaign. If referendums were binding, that could cause a problem.
Andrew Stunell
I thank my hon. Friend for that wise remark. One can envisage such binding referendums having a variety of unintended negative consequences.
The issue of standards was keenly debated in both Houses. Members and peers made it clear that they supported the abolition of the Standards Board regime and the removal of what was a top-down, bureaucratic system. However, concerns were raised about some aspects of our proposals to deal with local authority standards after the abolition of the Standards Board, and about whether they would ensure the high standards we all expect of local authorities. There was, however, much common ground and we were able to refine and develop our proposals as the Bill progressed through the House of Lords, and thereby get to a position which reassured all parties. All sides agreed that the promotion and maintenance of high standards of conduct was vital; the debate was about how best to achieve that.
We have introduced amendments 29 to 36 to address these concerns. They focus on the offence of pecuniary interests, and ensure that there are appropriate defences, such as “reasonable excuse”. In simplifying our proposals, we have ensured that councillors cannot use their position for financial advantage, but without the danger of criminalising a councillor for an honest oversight or omission.
There was a feeling that the provisions dealing with local authority standards after the abolition of the Standards Board needed to be set out in more detail. On Lords Third Reading, following meetings with peers of all parties and Cross-Benchers, the Government introduced amendments 15, 20 to 26, 7, 125, 332 and 333, strengthening the standards provisions in the Bill. Local authorities will now have to draw up a code of conduct in accordance with the Nolan principles of standards in public life, which I am sure I do not need to remind Members are selflessness, integrity, objectivity, accountability, openness, honesty and leadership. Central Government will not otherwise prescribe its content, other than to require councillors to register and disclose both their pecuniary and non-pecuniary interests in an open manner. Local authorities will also have to put in place arrangements both to deal with complaints that the code has been breached and for coming to a decision about complaints. Again, we will not stipulate what these arrangements should be.
Helen Jones
The only people who can stop vexatious claims by Lib Dem councillors are the Lib Dems, but I am sure that as they dwindle away in local government so, too, will the number of claims from them.
These amendments are, no doubt, an improvement on the original Bill, but I have some reservations about how the system will work in practice. In particular, I wonder about the role of the “independent person” specified. He or she must have their views sought by the local authority before it makes any decision on an allegation. However, although their view must be taken into account, that person is not the decision maker and does not have the power to investigate. I accept that we do not want to set up a system that is too convoluted, but I foresee a real possibility of conflict. In most local authorities—in good local authorities—that person clearly will be involved, but there is no requirement for that to happen. In addition, that independent person may be consulted by those who are the subject of an allegation. That really raises the question of what the role is: is the independent person the judge, the defence counsel or merely a therapist for all those involved? It is very unclear and we will have to consider again how the arrangement would work in practice—it may be that more work than we intend will result for lawyers.
Lastly, I am concerned that, although we now have something about pecuniary interests in the Bill, there is little about non-pecuniary interests, other than the fact that the code of conduct must secure their disclosure. We may well discover that it is necessary to have a clear definition of “non-pecuniary interests”, as we have in this House, for the sake of giving clarity to local councils and ensuring that minimum standards apply everywhere.
Let me address amendments 38 to 46 and 48, which the Under-Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government, the hon. Member for Hazel Grove (Andrew Stunell) rather skated over. The Government did not want to accept this set of amendments either, but they have now been forced to do so. Originally, the Government intended to require local councils to publish only information about the pay of senior staff. The reason for that was very simple: they wanted to propagate the myth that councils would not have to make cuts if only they cut top salaries. Let us be very clear that that is a myth. Liverpool council has cut £500,000 from executive pay, but it is a drop in the ocean compared with the £100 million-worth of cuts that it faces.
Alec Shelbrooke
Does the hon. Lady think that local authority money is better spent on libraries or on an international relations department?
Helen Jones
I think that, as Ministers keep saying from the Front Bench, it is for local authorities to make decisions about their priorities—the hon. Gentleman cannot have it both ways.
Let me be clear that I believe that people have a right to know how their money is spent. My personal view is that pay at the top of local authorities has risen to an unsustainable level, but it has been following pay in the private sector. We ought to make it clear that more than 90% of those who earn more than £150,000 are in the private sector—not the public sector. It is very interesting that the Government do not say anything about that. Neither do they want to say very much about low pay in the public sector, because that does not fit the myths that they create.
Zac Goldsmith
To be honest, I do not know what options were offered, but a large percentage of the population turned out to vote and the vast majority of those made their opinion known and were ignored. Whether we agree with that decision is academic. The fact is that people had their say and were ignored.
Alec Shelbrooke
To reinforce the point that my hon. Friend makes about councils listening, when the then governing coalition of Conservatives and Liberals on Leeds city council was discussing an incinerator, which I opposed, the Labour councillors made great play of the fact that the incinerator was going to be built. They won power on the council in 2010, and they are now building the incinerator. We have not heard a peep from the councillors who opposed it before.
Zac Goldsmith
We could go on. I shall take the opportunity to give one more example of a mad council ignoring the wishes of local people. That was in my own local authority in Richmond, where a couple of years ago—[Interruption.] It happens even in places such as Richmond, where I called a referendum on a proposal to bring in a supermarket, which local people felt would seriously damage the independent shops in one of the much-loved streets in Barnes. We had a bigger turnout in that referendum than in any general election, but we had a Mugabe-esque result: nearly 90% of people rejected Sainsbury’s, yet the local authority did absolutely nothing to prevent the takeover of the high street by Sainsbury’s. Again, whether we agree with the decision or not, democracy ought to play a role in such decisions.
Graham Jones
I appreciate that, but, having a lot of experience in local government, I think that the Minister is missing the point: there is no judicial framework, so somebody can go out and do something, and if there is a complaint by another member of the public about those actions there is nowhere for it to go, so the complaints that we get now could continue. If that is going to happen in planning policy, we will have some problems, so we need a substantive framework and an opportunity for people to bring into public debate the decisions that the individuals on those bodies make.
Further to that point, I am concerned that there is no robust framework for standards, and again I bring local government experience to that point. A lot of vexatious complaints are politically motivated—[Hon. Members: “Yes!”] I hear the cheers from Government Members; I do not know where such complaints are coming from, but they certainly did not come from the Labour side in my local authority. Regardless of that, those who have worked in local authorities know that many complaints are politically motivated, and they need to be removed. That is a serious and substantive point, and simply having a non-elected chair but an elected committee is not acceptable. When we look around local government, we find that even that has failed. There needs to be an unelected, unaccountable—sorry, accountable—[Interruption.] I hope the record is corrected. There needs to be an accountable but non-elected body, because that, more than anything, will stop a lot of vexatious complaints. The Government would be doing themselves a favour if they introduced such a framework into local government.
Alec Shelbrooke
I shall comment on a couple of amendments, but, starting with amendment 15 and following the remarks of the hon. Member for Hyndburn (Graham Jones) on the Standards Board, I was a councillor for six years, from 2004 to 2010, and once during that time I was taken to the Standards Board but found not really to have done anything wrong. The local authority dealt with the matter internally, but the person who brought it did not like the decision and tried to take it to appeal, and that is the point: it was about a planning issue.
Councillors stood in the ward I represented in Leeds on manifestos saying that they would protect certain characteristics of villages, and, when a planning application was made that totally undermined that, they wrote a letter of objection. The person who made the planning application took them to the Standards Board, saying that they were making a prejudicial complaint. That person used the board as a bullying tactic against councillors, and it happened time and again.
Nobody in this Chamber would say that people should not expect anything except the highest standards from those in public office. Everybody across the Chamber agrees with that, but the provisions brought in by the Standards Board were taken up by members of the public. Those people wanted to force the issue with a councillor, and they did not just make their life a misery; they cost them, personally and financially, a fortune.
Graham Jones
I was a victim of a vexatious complaint, on a very minor technicality, to the Standards Board. It was politically motivated, and, although I will not say which party chased it, I agree with the hon. Gentleman that such things are very annoying.
Alec Shelbrooke
I am most grateful to the hon. Gentleman, who makes my point. The complaint against him was politically motivated, whereas the one against me was made by somebody who was trying to get a particular decision on a planning issue and, effectively, trying to bully councillors not to get involved. There were several such cases, and whether someone has such politically motivated Standards Board cases, or whether the case comes from a slightly different angle, depends on which part of an authority they represent and the biggest issues there.
I do not want to get into which party takes the most people to the Standards Board, but I feel that the Labour party has been slightly unfair on our coalition colleagues. In the city of Leeds, Labour councillors formed a queue around the block to take others to the Standards Board. Indeed, one Labour councillor in Leeds, whom I am to going to name in the Chamber, took many people to the board over things that he considered to be a problem when Labour was in opposition, but now his party is in power and he is still not getting the information he wants, he is still pursuing the complaints. Even his own leadership say that they cannot keep control of him.
Do not get me wrong: the mindset behind establishing the Standards Board was correct. Credit should go to the previous Government for setting it up to demand the highest standards, but in reality and in practice that is not how it has worked, and it has become a useless tool that stops people writing in a manifesto what policies they would like to pursue. The board has been twisted and manipulated.
The former Mayor of London was taken to the Standards Board over a comment he made, and luckily he received the ruling that it had been made in his personal and private life, but what ruling was given to us councillors? It stated, “If someone comes up to you in the pub, you must say, ‘I am sorry, I am not a councillor.’” Come on, let us get real. Either we engage with our public, talk to people and understand things, or we become part of a robotic system in which the public are further distanced from us.
I guess that the vast majority of Members engage locally with their constituents, going down the pub, talking to people in the high street, getting information from what people feel is happening on the street and talking to them about it. Local councillors cannot do that any more, because unless they declare at the outset, “I am not discussing this with you, come to my surgery at this time,” they run a risk, and that represents a big disconnect from and disservice to the public. That was an unintended consequence of the Livingstone case, but whether we agree with his comments or not, that is not the issue, because they occurred in his private life, and the case should never have gone to the Standards Board.
We do have protection of the public: it is called the ballot box. That was always my argument as a councillor when it was said that someone was going to the Standards Board. There is a ballot box, whereby people can be voted in or out, and if someone were seen to be wholly corrupt it would not matter whether they were in the safest seat in the country, they would be voted out.
Graham Jones
I agree with the thrust of what the hon. Gentleman says, and I do not want to be controversial, but let us take the Community First programme in my constituency’s Peel ward, where residents are going to spend public money, or the neighbourhood forums. They are not elected. Where is the ballot box for those people?
Alec Shelbrooke
But there is something called the Serious Fraud Office—the fraud squad—and there is a law of the land, so we do not need to pursue such things through the Standards Board. If people misappropriate public funds, they can be reported to the police and there can be an investigation. Sometimes we double up on legislation to try to say to the public, “Look what we’re doing,” but in reality they have ended up with less influence and power, because things have become bound up in an operation that has not helped at all.
Graham Jones
If my community group decides that it is going to spend money on a project for which it has ownership, or on a project down the road for which there is no ownership within the Community First programme, and it then decides to skew the funding to what suits its needs, not somebody else’s, how does that fit in? That is not illegal, that is not fraud, but it is against accepted standards in public life.
Alec Shelbrooke
I invite the hon. Gentleman to intervene again on me. Who is awarding the grants to those people to spend that money?
Alec Shelbrooke
Yes, but the money comes from the council, and that is the point: it comes from the local authority to start with.
Graham Jones
It actually comes directly from the Department for Communities and Local Government.
Alec Shelbrooke
Through local communities and local government, projects are being identified—[Interruption.] I give way to the Minister.
Andrew Stunell
I wonder whether I may help my hon. Friend by reminding him that any body or organisation that spends public money is subject to the equalities duty, introduced under equalities legislation introduced by this Government earlier this year.
Alec Shelbrooke
I am most grateful to my hon. Friend for assisting me with that line of debate. There are protections in place: there is the law of the land, there is legislation and, when it comes to democratically elected people, there is the ballot box. I do not think it will do any harm to local government to remove the Standards Board and consider other areas, because it has wasted hundreds of thousands—if not millions—of pounds of taxpayers’ money on vexatious, vindictive claims. Beyond that, the board has slowed the process of local government, as well as the service and, indeed, the communications we, as elected Members, would want to have with our public. We need to address that.
Zac Goldsmith
I have a brief question. If the amendment is pressed to a vote, would my hon. Friend support it if it included turn-out thresholds, not just trigger-mechanism thresholds?
Alec Shelbrooke
I would not support the amendment for the reasons my hon. Friend just mentioned, because if someone wants to have a referendum that is binding on any subject, they leave themselves open to several problems. My hon. Friend’s amendment contains provisions that he feels would deal with that. However, in this place, we must be very careful about the legislation we introduce and the language we use. We may try to foresee the instances that may occur and try to stop some unsavoury referendums taking place, but once the legislation saying that it is binding is in place, someone somewhere will find a way around it.
We live in heightened times of tension. That is inevitable in an economic downturn. We go through periods when there is a blame culture and it is easy to pick on the weakest person.
If the House will indulge me, I would like to refer to “The Simpsons”. I am sure I am not alone when I say that I am huge fan of “The Simpsons”. Some of the episodes can be particularly cutting. I remember one episode when some of the characters woke up to find a bear in the front garden and decided that they wanted to introduce a bear tax to keep the bears out. The mayor had a meeting and said, “I want to bring in a bear tax.” Everybody said, “We’re not paying any more tax”, to which the mayor said, “All right. Well, I blame the immigrants.” Everybody cheered and the mayor said, “We’ll have a referendum on it.” As the episode goes on, they have a referendum to kick out the immigrants because they are unhappy about having to pay more tax and there was not enough tax to sort out the bears. Later, the episode highlights the fact that people in their communities, their friends and so on have an immigrant past and are fully integrated. There is a road to Damascus moment for Homer who goes around saying, “This is a terrible referendum. We can’t vote on this.” The result comes in, and there is a 96% vote to get rid of all the immigrants because nobody listens.
Zac Goldsmith
I apologise for intervening again, but my hon. Friend’s argument is exactly an argument in favour of democracy and referendums. If an unattractive proposition is made, people’s gut reaction may be to take the least attractive option. However, after debate and discussion—just as Homer Simpson proved to my hon. Friend in his youth—the right decision is normally reached. There are examples of that happening. In Switzerland, there was recently a vote on a motion that would have made migration to that country almost impossible. All the pundits and pollsters said the proposal would be overwhelmingly accepted; in fact, it was rejected by two to one as a result of the type of discussions prompted by the referendum. I say to my hon. Friend: please do not fear democracy in the way so many of our colleagues here do.
Alec Shelbrooke
It is not democracy I fear; it is people who may not be fully informed going to the ballot box. Let us not forget that the Third Reich was elected.
In conclusion, there is a place for referendums, and the balance in the Bill is about right. However, referendums should not be binding, which could open things up. It is perhaps sometimes hon. Members’ responsibility not to adopt the position we would take ourselves, but to consider what is best overall to protect the people from those who would seek to abuse and twist a system, as, indeed, happened with the Standards Board.
Annette Brooke (Mid Dorset and North Poole) (LD)
It is a privilege to follow that interesting contribution from the hon. Member for Elmet and Rothwell (Alec Shelbrooke). I mean that; his contribution was very interesting.
I welcome the contributions made by noble Members in the other place, which have been exemplary. There has been working together, cross-party work and working among the Cross Benchers. Ministers in the other place have carried forward issues raised in Committee in this place. Therefore, I am not sure why there is so much criticism of the amendments. During consideration of the Bill, there has been co-operation with the Local Government Association. This is perhaps more relevant to the next string of amendments, but I would like to put on the record the fact that I have recently become vice-president of the Local Government Association.
I welcome the Government amendments because, for the most part, they will extend local decision making and they are all steps in the right direction. Restrictions on area committees will be removed and councils will be able to choose what sort of structure they operate under and when they change structure. I was a councillor when cabinet structures were imposed by a Labour Government. There is also the timing of when a vote on all-out local elections may be held, if that is the choice of the local authority. I welcome the abolition of the concept of shadow mayors, because that was certainly not the best example of local decision making.
We have said much tonight about the standards reforms. They are possibly the most important matter to discuss on this string of amendments. It seems that all hon. Members recognise that reform was necessary. Sadly, I think it would be true to say that hon. Members of all political parties have probably engaged in vexatious complaints, so it should not be only my party that is the thrust of such comments. We need to recognise that, unfortunately, the set-up—the nature of the beast—meant that vexatious complaints would occur.
When the Bill was introduced, it was a reaction to a great need for reform and it moved the pendulum. As often happens, it probably moved it too far. The other place has pulled that pendulum back and has achieved a very interesting balance. There has certainly been much discussion on the matter. At the back of my mind, I feel that we should be prepared to review how things are working. Obviously, we do not have such a provision before us today, but it would be useful to know how the new system is working out in, for example, two years’ time. It might be necessary to revisit the system. None of us has a crystal ball and can see how well the new system might work, but this is definitely the right type of reform. It is important to get a balance and, as much as possible, make the measure local. Nevertheless, there need to be important protections.
I therefore heartily welcome all the Government amendments in this string. I am afraid that I will not support the amendment of the hon. Member for Richmond Park (Zac Goldsmith). His passion for increasing local democracy is very important, but there are issues with local referendums, not least the fact that they could lead to conflicts and abuse. The amendment clearly has a number of technical deficiencies and therefore could not be considered anyway.
Mark Reckless
The hon. Gentleman’s Labour council, like every other council in the country, has set a 0% council tax level because this Government, who believe in localism, have come in with an offer they cannot refuse.
I was a councillor for four years, and I am afraid that such measures do not just reduce the incentive to vote for parties of the centre right: it sometimes leads to good Conservatives taking offsetting measures to give themselves greater scope for freedom from central Government. My own council of Medway had virtually the lowest unitary tax in the country outside the Scilly Isles, yet when we attempted to put in a tax increase that was very slightly above the standard percentage cap that was set, we were not designated but put under the process whereby action would be taken against us the following year if we did not pull our socks up. In fact, our increase was far lower, in absolute terms, than increases of similarly sized councils elsewhere.
The problem is the fear of being capped—of not knowing what the level will be next year—and possibly even the fear of being forced to have very expensive referendums with very embarrassing results for the local politicians, particularly if they do not succeed, and for which their locality has to pay for in any event. That may lead some councils, even good Conservative ones, to put up council tax by more than they otherwise would in a particular year so that they have a higher base and there is less concern that they might get capped in a future year in needing to put through a substantive increase.
Alec Shelbrooke
Does my hon. Friend think it is fair that the Government can impose a cap and say, “That’s it—you’re not raising it”, as in his fine example from Medway? Would it not be better to take that to the people and say, “Do you want to have this rise in council tax which we believe is above a cap?”, when he could argue exactly the case he has argued for Medway?
Alec Shelbrooke
I am listening very carefully to my hon. Friend’s points. I think Members of all parties have been guilty of trying to explain why they do not think particular referendums, on serious issues, should be binding.
If there were a referendum suggesting that councillors should not receive any money whatever for their work, I believe it would find popular support, yet councillors work hard and need some sort of recompense. If that referendum were binding, how would councillors deal with that situation?
Martin Vickers
My hon. Friend makes a very interesting point, and my response is obvious—I am arguing in favour of binding referendums, so I believe that such a referendum would have to be binding. There could be turnout—