Highways (Financing) Bill (Third sitting)

Alison Griffiths Excerpts

Committee stage
Tuesday 3rd November 2026 Public Bill Committees

[The Chair]

Good morning, everyone. Will everyone ensure that all electronic devices are turned off or switched to silent mode? We now begin line-by-line consideration of the Bill. The selection list for today’s sittings is available in the room and on the parliamentary website. That shows how the clauses, schedules and selected amendments have been grouped together for debate. A reminder that the Member who has put their name to the lead amendment in a group is called first. Other Members are then free to indicate that they wish to speak in that debate by bobbing. Please bob on each occasion on which you wish to speak during proceedings.

At the end of the debate on a group of amendments and new clauses, I will call the Member who moved the lead amendment or new clause to speak again. Before they sit down, they will need to indicate whether they wish to withdraw the amendment or new clause, or to seek a decision. If any Member wishes to press any other amendment in a group to a vote—that includes grouped new clauses and schedules—they need to let me know. The order of decisions follows the order in which the amendments appear on the amendment paper.

[Alison Griffiths (Bognor Regis and Littlehampton) (Con)]

On a point of order, Mr Dowd. I apologise, but I am struggling to hear you. I am partially deaf, so I just wanted to ask that everyone speaks as clearly as possible. Thank you so much.

[The Chair]

Thank you; that is noted.

Clause 1

General duty of ORR

[Greg Smith (Mid Buckinghamshire) (Con)]

I beg to move amendment 46, in clause 1, page 1, line 15, leave out lines 15 to 18, and insert—

“it is the Lower Thames Crossing.”

This amendment would restrict the application of the Bill to the Lower Thames Crossing.

It is a pleasure to serve with you in the Chair, Mr Dowd, on the first day of line-by-line consideration of this important Bill. Whenever I sit on a Bill Committee, I seem to be opposite this Minister. We spent many happy weeks together on the Employment Rights Bill earlier in the Parliament. I look forward to the next few weeks.

I genuinely believe that a lot of the Bill has cross-party consensus, certainly between the Government and His Majesty’s loyal Opposition. However, as we explored in some of the evidence sessions the other day and on Second Reading, there are some question marks over many aspects of the Bill. We will no doubt explore those in future debates in Committee and later in the passage of the Bill in our House and the other place. For now, however, my proposition through this amendment is that we should seize on where we have agreement in order to get progress on a project that I think all parts of the House wish to see built, namely the lower Thames crossing. The amendment therefore seeks to restrict the Bill to just the lower Thames crossing.

In other parts of the Bill, we have genuine consensus, such as on the provisions for barrier-free tolling on roads such as the M6 and the Mersey tunnel, but that could easily be brought forward in separate legislation. The real purpose of the amendment is so that the Government can get on with the lower Thames crossing, which we very much want to see happen, particularly Labour Members in the direct locality of the crossing, as well as a number of Conservative Members from Kent and Essex.

If we can do that, I think we will see speed that we do not often see in infrastructure projects in the United Kingdom. Last week, we heard evidence about the differentials between us in the United Kingdom and our nearest neighbours in France and how they get stuff built faster and cheaper. For once in this Parliament, why do we not grasp the nettle, take what we agree on and move forward with it, having the debate on the other aspects further down the line?

One of the arguments I make is something I have seen throughout my political career in this place, in local government and as an activist: the importance to trial a new model to prove that it works. This is innovation for the lower Thames crossing, so let us test it, try it and work out the gremlins before the Government, whoever that might be at that point, come forward with other projects that could be financed and secured through the RAB—regulated asset base—model and the innovations in the Bill. I will ask the Minister a few questions on that.

Given that so much of the media and debate narrative has been about the lower Thames crossing, what other projects do the Government think might come forward or could be financed through the model proposed in the Bill, other than the lower Thames crossing? If literally nothing else is on the table, why are we legislating in this place for something that no one has the first clue about what it might be for? We can all gather around the point on the lower Thames crossing, but we may have divergence on other projects, in particular if no one can name a single one of them.

The framework brought forward by the Bill is open ended. The public we serve in all our respective constituencies would expect us to have far greater clarity on precisely what any law that we pass in this place is for. My constituents and those in the constituency of every other right hon. and hon. Member can understand and get behind the lower Thames crossing; it is far more difficult to get behind an abstract, which they cannot see, touch, breathe or smell, and so on. I put it to the Minister, therefore: accept the amendment and let us get an Act on the statute book that can move forward at pace—that favourite political phrase, at the moment—to get the lower Thames crossing built.

[Alison Griffiths]

My hon. Friend makes such an important point. During the evidence sessions, the Minister was categorical that his intention was not for any other road to be covered by this, so I join my hon. Friend in asking the Minister why he would not agree to the amendment, since he is so adamant about no other need for the clause.

[Greg Smith]

I am grateful to my hon. Friend for reasserting my argument. I hope that the Minister can answer the question. Some speculation has been that the Government want to avoid a hybrid Bill on the lower Thames crossing, and believe you me, Mr Dowd, I see the pitfalls of hybrid Bills in my own constituency, with 35 km of a certain railway being built through the middle of it, but I do not see a real argument why a hybrid Bill would be necessary. Why can we not talk explicitly about the lower Thames crossing in this piece of legislation?

I know the Minister to be a reasonable man, with whom we share agreement on this particular point of the lower Thames crossing, and on a determination to get on with it, so I gently ask him why we cannot have this piece of legislation on something that all parties can get behind. Later, we can have the debate on the other matters, which will take more time to get right with parliamentary scrutiny, but meanwhile we can move forwards.

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[Greg Smith]

The hon. Gentleman may not be surprised to hear that we will not find consensus on that point. I accept that Mr Palmer gave us his view of the world, which was that there was no differential in price. However, any simple look at the market prices of white diesel and HVO shows that the differential very much exists. That is not even a point of debate; it is in the market price. Also, later in the Committee’s oral evidence session, we heard evidence that the building of the road pales into slight insignificance compared with everything that will use the road. Operational vehicles powered by either petroleum or diesel will still be the vast majority of vehicles using the lower Thames crossing, which clearly has not been taken into account.

[Alison Griffiths]

In the evidence session, we heard from Mr Palmer that he had not taken different quotes from organisations looking at the differential cost between HVO and white diesel; all the quotations were based only on HVO. Therefore, his assertion that they were comparable in price was based on his view alone.

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[Justin Madders]

I am grateful for the shadow Minister’s question. The Bill’s purpose is to give the ORR the powers and ultimately the responsibility to regulate this model. It will be able to levy the licence holder to finance that particular work. A great deal of preparatory work is already going on to ensure that the ORR is capable of delivering the important functions set out under the Bill.

[Alison Griffiths]

The Minister just made the point that the ORR is not yet capable of delivering this. What is the plan from the Secretary of State and the Minister to deliver an ORR that has that capability? We also heard in evidence last week that the ORR does not believe that it is ready for it either.

[Justin Madders]

I am grateful for the hon. Lady’s question. There is a plan in place, but it would be a bit ridiculous for us to have everyone ready now when the legislation has not been passed. I assure her that a number of considerations are already taking place about having the right skills. We heard evidence last week that there is confidence that the right skillsets and people will be in place to provide the important functions that the ORR will have to deliver under the legislation.

Clause 2 sets out the overarching duty that will guide the Secretary of State when exercising functions under the Bill. It mirrors the duty placed on the ORR in clause 1 and ensures that both key decision makers operate within a consistent statutory framework. As the Bill gives important functions to the Secretary of State and the ORR, it is therefore important that decisions made by each are guided by the same overarching objectives and principles.

The clause requires the Secretary of State, like the ORR, to act in a way that furthers the interests of road users. In doing so, the Secretary of State must balance a range of important considerations, including efficiency, safety, sustainability and the impact of decisions on the wider strategic road network. These duties are underpinned by established principles of good regulation, helping to ensure that decisions are transparent, accountable, proportionate and targeted only when action is needed. I therefore commend the clause to the Committee.

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[Olly Glover (Didcot and Wantage) (LD)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairship, Mr Dowd—I hope you are not too distraught about not having been in the Chair for some of the other very exciting transport Bill Committees that we have had this year.

I want to start by addressing amendment 82, tabled by the shadow Minister. We understand where he is coming from, because the Committee heard evidence from Steve Gooding of the RAC Foundation about the danger of clause 3 being used as a Trojan horse for widespread road pricing, which is something that the Minister has assured us will not happen.

Our amendment 44 takes a different approach to the problem of excluding non-new roads altogether. As I said on Second Reading, we feel that the idea of tolls and fees is reasonable in principle, and it is used quite widely in Europe, but the safeguards must be clear. That is why our amendment 44 would require a strict threshold for applying tolls to existing roads, which we are defining as a continuous extra lane, to show a genuine improvement in the road’s capacity and to justify any introduction.

I agree with the shadow Minister on clause 3, in that so much of the Bill relies on us to take it on trust that the Government will do the right thing with the extensive powers that it creates. There was a good article in The Economist a few years ago about the problem with the good chaps theory of government, which has been an historic feature of the British so-called constitution. The problem is that it is difficult to take things on trust and rely on the current generation to do the right thing and interpret a Bill as it was intended, because a Bill cannot force the hand of a future Government, but future Governments do need to work to the legislation that has been passed. We therefore have some concerns about that and would be interested to hear the Minister’s comments.

We support the shadow Minister’s amendment 81. It is sensible to require consultation with the relevant local and mayoral authorities and important to involve them in any major changes to their areas that could increase local traffic flow and the burden on the local community, so we would support the amendment if it were pressed to a Division.

Subject to what the Minister says, at this point we would be keen, with your permission, Mr Dowd, to press amendment 44 to Division.

[Alison Griffiths]

I will speak to amendment 82, standing in the shadow Minister’s name and my name.

On the face of it, clause 3 looks quite straightforward. The licence would be granted for “works involving”—not delivering, just involving—

“the construction of a highway specified in the licence”.

However, granting a licence for being involved in the work set out in subsections (1)(b) and (1)(c), which our amendment 82 would remove, would make the ORR responsible for determining what is fair and transparent in terms of a toll that could be charged in future for that work. Again, to be clear, the clause does not talk about delivery; it just talks about involvement, so there is a total lack of clarity.

The ORR will rely on a code that has not yet been written and that will not come before this House, so we will have no say in what it looks like. As far as I am aware, there will be no cost-effectiveness constraints on the licensee, so the toll could be considerable. Nor does the toll need to end when the costs have been recovered. Paragraphs (b) and (c) create the prospect of a never-ending toll upon our constituents for what could be a pretty unspecific piece of work.

To return to the points already made by the shadow Minister, a licence should be granted only for the construction of new roads. If we want to look at future roads, the code should be subject to a parliamentary vote at a later stage. Obviously the Committee has voted against this, but to return to our earlier discussion, we would prefer to be looking at two specific roads: the lower Thames crossing and, potentially, the associated Dartford crossing. Without those constraints, however, this piece of legislation is very problematic. I support the amendment.

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[Justin Madders]

That would be where clauses 1 and 2 come in, which should give the hon. Member sufficient reassurance. It is important to say—I will use scouse terminology, if you do not mind, Mr Dowd—that I think the arguments coming forward are a bit jarg. I do not know if that is a phrase the Committee is familiar with, but it is a bit of a scaring-the-horses moment—a bit of a ride on the ghost train. Unfortunately, that is what we have come to expect from the Opposition. They are trying to create a scare story where none exists. I have to be clear, as I was on Second Reading and in the evidence sessions, that improving an existing road does not mean that the road will automatically be brought into the regime or be subject to tolls.

[Alison Griffiths]

Will the Minister give way?

[Justin Madders]

I will just finish.

Establishing and structuring a RAB arrangement comes with significant costs, so for small-scale improvements such as the setting up of a speed camera, it is just not going to be financially viable for anyone to consider it. In practice, it simply would not be justified, or work, in any way. We are clear from the evidence that we heard last week that the model will make sense only for projects of sufficient scale, where the benefits of bringing in long-term private investment justify those costs.

Members should be clear that I know that what I say on the record is relevant to the intention of the Bill, and that that will be something that any future court will take into account.

[Justin Madders]

I will now give way to the hon. Member for Bognor Regis and Littlehampton.

[Alison Griffiths]

I will pass to my hon. Friend the shadow Minister.

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[Justin Madders]

We are very clear that the clause is about the specified highway. It is about the trunk road. It is about the protections in clauses 1 and 2. I will simply push back that, if there was some secret plan to expand road tolls, there is already legislation in place that would allow us to do that. The New Roads and Street Works Act 1991, which was passed by the hon. Member’s party in Government, created the powers to introduce road tolling. If there was a secret plan to do that, we would not need to bring forward legislation. This is about setting up a new regulatory model to bring in investment for particular projects.

[Alison Griffiths]

I refer back to the intervention that I was going to make earlier, which was about clarity. The Minister said several times that he was being very clear, but I would gently suggest that the legislation is not very clear. That is the point that several of us are making: we are in danger of passing legislation that may not deliver what is perhaps intended by the Minister at this stage. It is at a point where a future Government, perhaps not as benign as others, might abuse the wording of the legislation. We are really just looking to ask the Minister to be clear in the Bill, not just in his words.

[Justin Madders]

I am grateful for the hon. Lady’s question and her description of “benign”, which I will frame and put on my wall at home.

The Bill is clear. There are reasons why we have to look at the existing network, particularly when we consider what is happening in the lower Thames crossing. The simple economics of this would not be attractive to investors if we were going to broadly open up road charging across the country—as I say, there is already legislation that would enable us to do that. The clause is about setting up a specific financial model, which will have strong regulation and will enable capacity-enhancing improvements to be made to the road network. As I say, it is very clear that there are sufficient protections already within the legislation to avoid the situation that Opposition Members are concerned about.

Turning to amendment 44, I thank the hon. Member for Didcot and Wantage for raising the question of capacity-enhancing improvements. We will be clear that this framework is intended for major road infrastructure, not for minor changes to the road network. There are practical constraints on the use of this model. Again, as I have referred to, clauses 1 and 2 require the ORR to act in the “interests of users” of the highway specified in licences or proposed to be specified. Clause 2 requires the Secretary of State to act in the

“interests of users of trunk roads in England.”

Both have regard to the principle that regulatory action should be proportionate and targeted only where it is needed. I am not entirely sure that the amendment would deliver the changes that the hon. Gentleman proposes. I am concerned that, while he is talking about an extra lane, he has not put any de minimis length on that, which might give a future non-benign Government encouragement to take it further than is our intention.

We have to be clear that establishing and structuring a RAB arrangement carries substantial costs. It must be sufficiently large and economically viable for that financing approach to make sense. We heard evidence that the geography of this country is such that simply adding lanes on here and there is not a viable option. I therefore suggest that the hon. Gentleman not press his amendment to a Division.

The shadow Minister spoke to amendment 81. I hope I never have a call from him when he is feeling frustrated—I am not sure how that would go for either of us—but he made an important point about ensuring that local and mayoral authorities are notified where there may be a proposed scheme. It is of course the case that the Bill already ensures that the relevant authorities are consulted. As set out in clause 4, before any licence can be granted, the licensing authority must publish the proposal, which must also be shared with the relevant bodies, expressly including the strategic highways company and any other appropriate bodies exercising highway functions. At least 28 days must be allowed for representations from those bodies.

Different projects will affect different places and different authorities. Therefore, the right consultees will depend on the project. As we have seen in recent times, the structure of local government can change, so it would not make sense to hardwire into legislation that particular types of authority should be consulted, because that could become outdated.

[Justin Madders]

Of course the answer to that is that we cannot predict the future. In 2010, the idea of a mayoral combined authority was nothing more than a glint in George Osborne’s eye. It is about future-proofing the legislation: it does not make sense for us to come back at a later stage to add in extra consultees, because the Bill already has the correct powers to ensure that the licensing authority must consult appropriate bodies. That makes the framework flexible enough to respond both to the circumstances of individual projects and to changes in local government structures over the life of the legislation, which will be significant, because of the LTC project.

Clause 3 is at the heart of a lot of the debate today. The clause establishes what a licence is, what it can authorise and the circumstances in which one can be granted. The purpose of the licensing regime is to provide the framework through which private investment can support the delivery of strategic road infrastructure. In simple terms, clause 3 allows a licensing authority to grant a person a licence giving them the right to charge tolls on a highway specified in that licence. But that right is not freestanding; it is granted in return for the licence holder securing specified works to the highway.

The works fall into three main categories. A licence may support the construction of a highway; it may support the improvement of an existing highway, where the purpose is to increase its capacity; and, where a highway has already been constructed or improved under this licensing regime, it may provide for its maintenance, operation or further improvement. If another highway is specified in the licence, the licence may also authorise the licence holder to charge tolls in respect of that highway. That is an important point about the structure of the regime. Clause 3 is not simply a general power to allow private companies to charge motorists; the authority to charge tolls is tied directly to the licence holder securing the highway works specified in the licence. In addition, clause 3 does not allow the model to be applied indiscriminately across the road network.

We have heard the concern about the measure meaning a change to existing roads. A small improvement to an existing road, such as a smart motorway camera, does not automatically mean that that road will be brought into the regime or become subject to tolls. A highway can be included in a licence only if it is, or is to be, a trunk road in England, or part of one. The licensing regime created by this part is therefore deliberately confined to that network.

Clause 3 also sets out who may grant the licences. When the regime first begins, both the Secretary of State and the ORR will be licensing authorities. This is known as the “initial period”. Put simply, it is the period for dealing with the first licence under the Bill. Once the first licence has been issued, the initial period will end and the ORR will become the licensing authority. The end of the initial period will be specified by the Secretary of State in regulations.

It is important to say that there is an additional safeguard during that initial period. The ORR cannot itself grant a licence without the Secretary of State’s consent. Where the Secretary of State gives that consent, the decision must be published in a way that the Secretary of State considers appropriate to bring it to the attention of people likely to be affected. Where the Secretary of State grants the licence directly, a copy must be provided to the ORR as soon as reasonably practicable.

Clause 3 should also be read alongside the safeguards in the rest of the licensing framework. In particular, clause 4 requires consultation before a licence can be granted. The proposal must identify both the works to be secured and the highway on which tolls would be authorised, and there must be at least 28 days for representations. A licence cannot be granted unless that consultation requirement has been met.

That is an important safeguard because bringing a road into this regime is of course a significant decision. Before a licence is granted, those likely to be affected have an opportunity to understand what is proposed and make representations. The licensing authority must go through that process before deciding whether the licence should be granted.

It is also important to be clear that, whether we are talking about a new road or a capacity enhancing improvement, the regime is confined to the trunk road network. A highway can only be included in a licence if it is, or is to become, a trunk road in England.

We will come later to clause 81, which makes the necessary changes to the existing trunking provisions in section 10 of the Highways Act 1980 so that a new highway built under this licensing regime can become a trunk road. It does not create a blanket new power to designate any road as a trunk road; rather, it enables the existing process to work for the new type of highway.

[Alison Griffiths]

I thank the Minister for giving way. This should be the easiest intervention to reply to—I only wish to ask him to speak more slowly so that I can understand what he is saying.

[Justin Madders]

Apologies to the hon. Member.

Taken together, these provisions mean that the Bill can support both new strategic roads and significant capacity enhancing improvements, while remaining firmly focused on the trunk road network. The licensing authorities will also exercise their functions within the overarching statutory duties we have just debated. Those duties put the interests of road users at the centre of decision making, while requiring consideration of matters including efficiency and economy, safety, the wider strategic road network, sustainable development and competition.

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[Greg Smith]

I am grateful to my hon. Friend for that intervention, which goes to the heart of what we are talking about here: projects not on the strategic road network but that are important to local people—roads or indeed other forms of transport, as the Liberal Democrat spokesman spoke of—will be integral to getting traffic flows and people on to the new schemes that the Bill would enable. Not shutting out and turning our back on the other authorities that are part of the all-important jigsaw puzzle of our road network in its entirety, which feeds into and feeds off the lower Thames crossing or other schemes that the Bill would enable, surely has to be all important.

[Alison Griffiths]

I listened to the Secretary of State for Housing, Communities and Local Government in the Chamber yesterday espouse the future of her devolution programme, which of course encompasses many strategic authorities and regional mayors and is at the heart of the Government’s programme. It seems inconceivable that this Bill specifically excludes them. I urge the Minister to join us in a spirit of cohesion and future clarity. Let us show our constituents what we can do when we work together. We can improve legislation, and the Minister would be working hand in glove with the Secretary of State to deliver that, so I encourage him to support us.

[Greg Smith]

My hon. Friend adds to the argument for amendment 78. For the sake of the record, I should say that those mayoral combined authorities are not excluded; they are just not explicitly included and named in the Bill as important stakeholders in our road system that will ensure that any new scheme functions properly and well, and does not lead to the unintended consequences I spoke of earlier. I look forward to the Minister’s reply.