Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Alison McGovern and Margot James

Tuesday 12th September 2017 Commons Chamber

[Margot James]

I have to agree with my hon. Friend, who makes a very good point. Indeed, the rise in national minimum wage to which I referred in my earlier answer is the best pay rise for low-paid people in this country for 20 years.

[Alison McGovern (Wirral South) (Lab)]

It is almost comical; we would not even have a minimum wage if it were not for Labour Members. The Minister spoke about the Government’s industrial strategy, which she thinks will help to give people a pay rise, but that strategy is absolutely at odds with the current Brexit strategy. Will the Department have a word with the rest of the Government and commit to keeping our country in the single market?

[Margot James]

I remind the hon. Lady that this Government’s policy is to be outward-facing and achieve the best trade deal possible with the European Union, but we have to bear in mind the concerns of my constituents and hers about immigration. That has to be tackled, and it is no use the Opposition running away from that. They cannot assume that we will be able to remain in the single market indefinitely and address people’s legitimate concerns about immigration.

Draft Important Public Services (Education) Regulations 2017 Draft Important Public Services (Transport) Regulations 2017

Debate between Alison McGovern and Margot James

Tuesday 31st January 2017 General Committees

[Margot James]

I can certainly deal with the issue of e-balloting. The Government committed to undertake a review of the potential for e-balloting in advance of strike action. A review has been established under the chairmanship of Sir Ken Knight and it will report by the end of the year.

We propose that the 40% threshold comes into force on 1 March. At the same time we will bring into force a number of other provisions in the 2016 Act, including a 50% turnout threshold for those who are eligible to vote, as I mentioned; additional information to be provided about the result of any ballot; two weeks’ notice of industrial action to be given to employers; new requirements to manage picketing and new reporting requirements. That ensures that the key changes to the way official industrial action is decided on and implemented are prioritised and come into effect as a package.

The purpose of the ballot thresholds is to rebalance the ability of union members to strike with the interests of the general public, non-striking workers and employers. The 2016 Act takes proportionate action to redress the balance and ensure that unions in the education and transport sectors have a strong democratic mandate before they take strike action. The impact of strike action is most severe when it takes place in the important public services that people and businesses rely on every day, particularly when people are left with no real alternatives. That is particularly unfair when strike action goes ahead with no evidence of strong support from a unionised workforce. That is why we have introduced a 40% approval threshold to apply to important public services such as education and transport, in addition to the requirement for a 50% turnout overall.

[Alison McGovern (Wirral South) (Lab)]

For the sake of full disclosure, will the Minister say what her own approval threshold was and what percentage of her own electors voted for her?

[Margot James]

As I do not dwell on my own electoral circumstances, I cannot give an absolutely accurate answer to the hon. Lady’s question. However, I do not regard that as a parallel. That sort of question was raised when we debated the Bill last year. Everybody gets a say in the election of an individual MP to represent a constituency. It is not just a vote for one or another candidate; a range of candidates are on offer. Everyone who is going to be affected by the eventual outcome of such an election gets a say. In the cases we are describing, the non-striking workforce and—more important for this argument—the public, who require and depend upon these services, as they do in the hon. Lady’s own constituency, get no say whatsoever.

This is an attempt not to deny strike action or the validity of it, but to rebalance the interests involved. That is why we have introduced a 40% approval threshold to apply to these important public services, in addition to the requirement for a 50% turnout. It is in the interests of the public to know that where they face disruption in these crucial services as a result of strike action, it is because union members have secured a democratic mandate. That is also important for union members who did not support the strike action.

The Government believe that the measures being put in place strike the right balance. During the passage of the Trade Union Bill last year, the Government consulted on which services within the public service categories set out in the Bill should be subject to the 40% threshold and on how the threshold should operate in practice. We analysed more than 200 responses, reviewed the available evidence for the impact of strike action across different public services and listened to stakeholder views.

At this point, I will answer the question from the hon. Member for Airdrie and Shotts on what consultation took place with the Scottish Government. The Government held a public consultation on these measures during the passage of the Bill, published skeleton regulations as part of the Government response and invited comments from all stakeholders and members of the public, including in Scotland.

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[Margot James]

My hon. Friend makes a very good point. I will reflect on that and get back to him.

Members of the public will agree that strikes in such important public services should only take place when there is a strong level of support for a justifiable mandate. I hope I have reassured Members that the regulations are justified and proportionate to our objective.

I am aware that concerns have been expressed in Parliament and elsewhere that the 40% threshold is not consistent with our international obligations. I will set out why we are satisfied that it is compliant. We recognise that the threshold introduces additional conditions that must be met before strike action can be taken. It therefore engages our obligations under article 11 of the European convention on human rights and the International Labour Organisation’s conventions. We analysed the provisions of the 2016 Act carefully against those requirements. It is clear that restrictions on article 11 of the ECHR are permitted when they are justified by a legitimate aim and are proportionate. The pressing social needs we want to address in the regulations are the safeguarding of children’s education and the ability of large numbers of people to go to work and carry on their daily lives. Strike action in the important education and transport sectors can have a significant impact on those social needs.

[Alison McGovern]

It was my great joy as a child to experience my dad, a railway worker, out on strike on many occasions. Too often, he was protecting health and safety for other railway workers—a cause that is extremely important to all of us who have family members working to keep our trains running. Will the Minister explain how she has weighed important social factors such as the safety of people working in the industry against the causes she mentions?

[Margot James]

The hon. Lady makes a very good point. The legislation does not purport to condemn all strike action as anathema. It is merely about a requirement to better balance the interests of the travelling public with the rights of people, including her father, to take strike action. There is no concerted effort by the Government to undermine a person’s or a union’s right to take strike action; we are merely requiring that right to be tempered by a strong democratic mandate.

Our aim is to rebalance the ability of union members to strike with the interests of the general public, non-striking workers and employers. In introducing thresholds, we have taken proportionate action that does not ban strikes, but simply redresses the balance by ensuring that unions have a democratic mandate before they take strike action. International bodies have persistently been asked to consider whether UK legislation is compliant, but the UK courts, the European Court of Human Rights and the governing body of the ILO have accepted that UK legislation strikes the right balance between the rights of union members and the legitimate interests of others affected by their actions. That is precisely what the Trade Union Act and the regulations continue to do.

We have taken account of the guidelines on essential services that some of the ILO’s supervisory committees have referred to in respect of services where it may be legitimate to limit or prohibit strike action, but our objective is not the same and that is why we have deliberately used a different term. As I have explained, we want to protect the public from the immediate and adverse consequences of strike action taken with the support of a minority of union members. We are not stopping strikes that have a reasonable democratic level of support, such as those the hon. Lady just mentioned.

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[Alison McGovern]

Will the hon. Lady give way?

[Margot James]

I will not give way, because I am merely responding to the hon. Lady’s—

Finance (No. 4) Bill

Debate between Alison McGovern and Margot James

Thursday 19th April 2012 Commons Chamber

[Margot James]

My hon. Friend has, in part, responded to the point made by the hon. Member for Stoke-on-Trent South (Robert Flello), and I was going to say that some 5 million older people will not be affected by this measure. We can split hairs on this issue, but I accept that the measure does amount to an additional payment. However, although the allowance freeze results in an increase in tax payable, it does so only by an average of £84 a year. I accept that that is not nothing, but it is a relatively small sum. The measure is raising so much money for the Exchequer by dint of the fact that so many people are in receipt of state pensions. The pain, as it were, can therefore be shared by many, and the resulting amount per person is very small. I apologise for the fact that I shall not take any more interventions, but so many other Members still want to speak.

To address the other point made by the hon. Member for Stoke-on-Trent South, the Government have a good record in protecting people on pensions. We have restored the earnings link. The Labour party had 13 years in which to restore the link, and Barbara Castle called for that every year until her death. We have done it. We have also secured it with the triple lock.

The hon. Member for Leeds West (Rachel Reeves) was ungenerous in arguing that we appeared to be proud of the inflation rate. If she had remained in the Chamber, I would have told her that that inflation has largely been driven by increased oil and commodity prices, which Governments have no control over. It is to the credit of this Government that they were brave enough to say, “We will increase the state pension by either 2.5%, the rate of inflation or the rate of earnings, whichever is the greater.”

[Alison McGovern (Wirral South) (Lab)]

rose—

[Margot James]

I am sorry, but I will not take any more interventions.

As a result of that Government pledge, there will be no cash losers from this allowance freeze. We have protected universal benefits, with the single exception of not renewing the temporary increase of £100 in the winter fuel payments. We have protected all the other universal benefits, however, as we promised to do. Some 600,000 of the poorest pensioners have received a warm home discount of £120 extra to help with their fuel bills. We have also frozen council tax for two years running. Council tax has been a bone of contention among older people, many of whom have been hit hard by increases in it over the past decade. We have also protected, and increased slightly, the budget for the NHS. As we all know, older people account for more of that expenditure than any other group and they will benefit disproportionately from the NHS budget increase.

I have already made the point that freezing this allowance will entail a cost of, on average, £84 a year. I accept that that is not a derisory amount for someone living on an income of just over £10,000 a year. However, 5 million pensioners will not be affected by this measure. In fact, the Joseph Rowntree Foundation, an organisation that Labour Members sometimes cite, has said that the media coverage has lost all perspective on this matter, stating that

“you would think it’s doomsday for older people…I’m not sure. I think we’re losing perspective on phasing out the Age-Related Allowances”.

It makes a number of good arguments as to why it takes that view.

In conclusion, I must say that I have received very few critical letters on this subject from pensioners. The vast majority of older people in my constituency are more concerned with the prospects for their grandchildren; the average age of a new home buyer is now 38. They might not have read “The Pinch” by my right hon. Friend the Minister for Universities and Science, which was published two years ago, but he pointed out, among many other things, that those in the generation born after 1970 are the first not to be able to look forward to a better standard of living than their parents. That point is felt keenly by many older people in my constituency. Although they cannot easily increase their income, they accept that their grandchildren are facing a different future from the one they faced. Unlike the Labour party, they know that the alternative to facing down this deficit, with everyone making a contribution to that strategy, is the further impoverishment of their grandchildren, and that is not a price that they are willing to pay.

NHS Care of Older People

Debate between Alison McGovern and Margot James

Thursday 27th October 2011 Westminster Hall

[Alison McGovern (Wirral South) (Lab)]

The hon. Lady’s final point before she reached her conclusions and recommendations made some quite clear criticisms of the values in society. Will she add to that list how she would like the values in society to improve?

[Margot James]

I welcome that intervention because whenever one is preparing for a debate such as this, one is conscious of how much more there is to say than one has time for. I was not intending to draw too many conclusions on what needs to change in society. I was concentrating on what needs to change in the domain that we are discussing, but perhaps the hon. Lady would care to call for a debate on the topic to which she has referred. I am sure that we could fill an afternoon with such a discussion and I should be delighted to take part.

[Margot James]

I thank my hon. Friend. That is a very good point. The integration of health and social care should, with the weight of joint commissioning behind it, make quite a difference. My speech has concentrated on care in hospitals, but I hope that other hon. Members will bring out issues to do with care at home and other aspects of what the NHS delivers.

I shall go through my list of recommendations briefly. On nutrition, the Age UK report, “Still Hungry to Be Heard”, advocated that ward staff needed to be “food-aware”. Training should include nutrition and the importance of assistance with meals when needed. I agree with these recommendations. Older people should be assessed for signs of malnourishment on admission, during their stay and on discharge. Hospitals should introduce protected mealtimes. Where they are using a red tray system, which involves a red tray being given to patients who require assistance with eating, staff should be trained in how to use it. It sounds as though that system works well where it is used properly.

[Alison McGovern]

I thank the hon. Lady for her generosity in giving way to me again. Does she question, as I do, the red tray system, in that if nurses and nursing staff understand the needs of a person, surely they should understand what their nutritional assistance needs are without the use of a red tray? Surely they should know patients well enough already. Is that not a question that we should ask?

[Margot James]

I thank the hon. Lady for her excellent point. In an ideal world, I would strongly agree with her. I agree that what she has suggested is to be desired. The trouble with relying on that is that the throughput of patients through wards these days is quite fast, the rostering system for nurses is very complicated and the continuity of care is certainly not as good as it used to be. Many nurses work intensively for a week and then have a substantial amount of time not working. Therefore the personal relationship, which is so desirable, has been compromised to the extent that we can no longer rely on it to ensure that patients’ nutritional needs are met. That is why I believe that the red tray system is useful. However, I am very concerned that people could easily think, “Oh well, that sorts the problem out,” and not feel that they need to relate to the patient in the way that the hon. Lady suggests.

I come now to accountability. I realise that this is not something that the Government can mandate, but chief executives should come on to the wards regularly—every day that they are in work. Nurses used to be accountable to a matron, who would turn up unannounced to check on standards. We must replicate that discipline again, and I recommend starting at the top.

Managers need to ensure that budgets are used wisely to support front-line staff and that front-line staff are not distracted by other, non-patient-care “priorities”. I looked at nurse blogs when I was preparing my speech and I sympathised with one nurse who said that nurses are

“at the beck and call of so many departments who wish to give work away and have no qualms in ‘getting the nurses to do it’. Loan stores, training, HR, to mention a few who seem to have forgotten that their role is to support us—not the other way around.”

I have sympathy with busy nurses who are pulled in all directions.

Care (Older People)

Debate between Alison McGovern and Margot James

Tuesday 6th September 2011 Westminster Hall

[Alison McGovern]

I agree. In a moment, I will talk about some of the problems that local authorities are currently facing. They have had bigger cuts than any part of Government in Whitehall. Although I wholeheartedly agree with what the hon. Gentleman said, it is a challenge to all of us to support local authorities in that prevention role.

The hon. Member for Newton Abbot rightly made the point that quality matters above all else. Some of the examples given by her and others were compelling in terms of the moral requirement on us all to stand up for the dignity of older people. I firmly believe that, when we hear examples such as the one just given, we know what is happening is wrong. I have heard examples from my constituents: for example, older people are told that a “breakfast” visit to get them up can take place any time between 6 am and 11.30 am, regardless of their personal preference. That is not good enough and is an offence to somebody who prior to needing care was independent and perfectly capable of looking after themselves. We all know that instinctively.

The question is: how do we get from where we are to where we would like to be? I want briefly to make two points on the subject. First, I shall mention enforcement and some of the professional development issues. Leading on from that, I shall talk about the market for care provision and why there is an interesting and difficult problem that the Government will have to tackle regarding the market for providing care. I agree with many of the points made by the hon. Member for Newton Abbot about some of the anomalies surrounding enforcement. I repeat that local authorities are having to struggle with the fact that, if they were a Government Department, they would be experiencing the biggest cuts in Whitehall. That makes the job of having responsibility for the care of older people, which is a fixed cost, very difficult.

[Margot James]

Does the hon. Lady agree that, when we consider expenditure, part of the problem is that, over the past 10 years, the increase in local authority budgets for adult and social care has been minimal compared with the increase in many other local authority budgets, particularly that for children and younger people’s services, to name but one? With adult and social care, we are starting from a base that is already very low, which is one of the problems and is why local authorities are struggling so much.

The Economy

Debate between Alison McGovern and Margot James

Wednesday 22nd June 2011 Commons Chamber

[Alison McGovern]

rose—

[Margot James]

I will take an intervention from the hon. Gentleman, who was a member of the Health and Social Care Public Bill Committee.

Department for Business, Innovation and Skills (Performance)

Debate between Alison McGovern and Margot James

Wednesday 2nd February 2011 Commons Chamber

[Alison McGovern]

I thank my hon. Friend for that intervention. As Bill Shankly used to say, “I’m only surprised that people are surprised at the surprises.”

The Liverpool Daily Post said today:

“The scrapping of the Grants for Business Investment scheme will leave Merseyside companies seeking smaller amounts of investment aid with nowhere to turn…The flagship ‘regional growth fund’ currently only accepts applications for at least £1m—and its first round of bids was seven times oversubscribed. Local Enterprise Partnerships will have no funding.”

So if the companies in my constituency did not believe that when I said it, they have now heard it from our local media too.

[Margot James]

The hon. Lady mentioned the science base and investment. The Business, Innovation and Skills Committee heard evidence yesterday from representatives of the aerospace industry, who said that they wanted to continue to invest in the UK because of our skills base. It is not just me saying that the Government are supporting science; the president of the Royal Society has complimented the Government on recognising the importance of Britain’s standing in the scientific world. All savings from the science base will be reinvested back into science.

[Alison McGovern]

That is an interesting perspective, and I obviously have great respect for the learned people that the hon. Lady has mentioned—[Interruption.] Of course I have great respect for the Royal Society.

The Government cannot say that the corporation tax cut will enable investment. Ireland had one of the lowest corporation tax rates, and look what happened there.

Jobs and the Unemployed

Debate between Alison McGovern and Margot James

Wednesday 7th July 2010 Commons Chamber

[Margot James (Stourbridge) (Con)]

There have been quite a lot of references to history in this debate. In the first few hours, which I sat through and enjoyed, many such references were made, including by the shadow Secretary of State for Work and Pensions, the right hon. Member for Normanton, Pontefract and Castleford (Yvette Cooper), who said that she left school in the 1980s and that many of her friends became unemployed in the early ’80s. As I was born a decade earlier, I had a ringside seat in the decades that led to the 1980s. Throughout the ’60s and ’70s, various Labour Governments presided over truly disastrous industrial intervention policies.

I, too, come from Coventry, as does the hon. Member for Wakefield (Mary Creagh), who also contributed to the history lessons in the debate. She will remember the creation of British Leyland, the demise of our car industry, the massive subsidies that those Labour Governments poured into failing companies and failing industries, combined with marginal personal tax rates of up to 98%. In the end of course, as we all know, the country had to be rescued by the International Monetary Fund. That is what led to unemployment in the 1980s, not the Governments led by Margaret Thatcher.

A pattern developed during those previous Labour Governments, just as it has done in the past 13 years, and it results in the end in rising unemployment. Every Labour Government, I believe, have left office with unemployment higher than when they came to office. We must not forget that in a debate on unemployment. Unemployment among the young is greater now than it was in 1997. During the past five years there has been a 72% rise in my constituency of people on jobseeker’s allowance, more than a quarter of whom are between the ages of 18 and 24. Much has been said about the tragedy of unemployment among this age group with which I agree.

[Alison McGovern]

Does the hon. Lady think that it is appropriate to compare unemployment in 1997 with unemployment today, at two completely different points in the economic cycle? That is not how economists would normally do it.

[Margot James]

The previous Government inherited falling unemployment in 1997, and it steadily increased during the first decade of this century. We have been through a couple of economic cycles during that time, but historically unemployment is always greater when a Labour Government leave office than when they arrive.

Rising unemployment under Labour Governments is always followed by a lot of well-meaning interventions to try to support people back into work. That is a laudable aim, with which we all agree, but it leads, as it has during the past five or six years, to a confusing array of individual benefit programmes that create a flourishing array of different funding streams and agencies, and they grow like Topsy. They beget a flourishing cottage industry of providers, all of which make money out of the taxpayer in trying to deliver the same services. It is imperative that the Government simplify, as they are doing, the 12 support-for-work programmes. I congratulate the new team on the steps that they have taken to integrate everything into a single get-back-to-work programme.

I do not want to be wholly negative about the interventions under the previous Government. I was a governor of Stourbridge further education college in my constituency, and a good programme was developed with Westfield, the company that manages the retail centre, and it was known as the retail academy. It took long-term unemployed people, such as women who had left the workplace to have a family, who had not been able to get back into work and who had lost their confidence. They did not have to lose their benefits. The programme was a 9-to-5 commitment, and more than half of them managed to get proper long-term jobs in the retail sector. I would not want to imply that all the individual programmes were a waste of money—of course some of them helped, and I am sure that we will learn from them—but simplification and better co-ordination is key, as another example that I want to share with the House demonstrates.

A few weeks ago, like me, some Members will have visited the manufacturing insight conference that took place just off Westminster Hall. I was struck by the story of a managing director of a small business in Lincolnshire employing about 30 people who wanted to access training for her finance staff. They wanted NVQ level 2 finance training, but in order to qualify she had to guarantee that eight people from her workplace would attend the course. She did not have eight people who needed the course, but there was only one provider that she could approach, and it was subcontracted by another provider that had the contract with the college.

All these providers and subcontracted providers take a slice of taxpayers’ money, which is another reason why we must simplify and codify the work, so that just one company or social enterprise is charging the taxpayer a fee for delivering a much-needed service. Business needs support, but it knows, for the most part, what it needs to employ people, and we must give companies much more direct access to the funding. They should not have to go through all these multiple layers of provision, and they should not have to go through regional development agencies, Business Link and so on—they should be able to access the vital help much more easily.

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[Margot James]

Will the hon. Lady give way?

[Alison McGovern]

I will make a bit of progress, if that is okay.

We should recognise that the downturn that we have faced has been worse for graduates from lower-income backgrounds, and there are a few reasons for that. Graduates from lower-income backgrounds are much less likely to go on to further study. When I was studying philosophy at University college London, at a time when the economy was growing, I remember my tutor saying to me that downturns were always good for philosophy departments, because they kept hold of people who would otherwise have gone straight into the City, as their parents could pay for them to do a master’s degree or something like that for a few years.

We need to recognise that graduates from lower income backgrounds are less able to progress their careers, because they are less likely to have the informal networks that will help them as graduates to take the first steps into their careers. Unless we are able to rebuild business confidence, even graduates will continue to face difficulties. I return to my original point that the key to unlocking the problem of unemployment, especially among young people, is to improve business confidence and to ensure that the private sector and the public sector continue to invest in jobs.

In liaising with the CBI in the north-west on apprenticeships, I heard about companies in Wirral that were very keen to employ local young people. I talked to those companies at length about how we could support them in their endeavour to build new infrastructure in Wirral while training young people in my area. Those companies were working on vital infrastructure projects such as Building Schools for the Future, and the problem with the Government’s decision to cut the deficit more quickly than we would have liked is that the withdrawal of Government input into the economy will be counter-productive because those companies will no longer feel that they have the backing of the Government to hire young people and build up their skills.