Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Andrew Selous and Desmond Swayne

Thursday 18th April 2024 Commons Chamber

[Sir Desmond Swayne (New Forest West) (Con)]

6. To ask the hon. Member for South West Bedfordshire, representing the Church Commissioners, if the Church will publish a statement on its position on amendments tabled to the Criminal Justice Bill relating to the decriminalisation of abortion before Report stage of that Bill.

[Andrew Selous]

The Church of England believes that the foetus is a human life with the potential to develop, while recognising that there can be strictly limited conditions under which abortion may be morally preferable to any available alternative. The Church also believes that every possible support, especially by Church members, should be given to those who are pregnant and in difficult circumstances. The Church would support new clauses 15 and 34 and believes that, while women should not face criminalisation, anyone coercing a woman to have an abortion, or providing one beyond the legal limit, or supplying an abortion kit for a late-term use should be prosecuted.

[Sir Desmond Swayne]

I welcome the support for new clauses 15 and 34. I think the Second Church Estates Commissioner has given implicit opposition to the new clause in the name of the right hon. Member for Kingston upon Hull North (Dame Diana Johnson), but I am gobsmacked not to have had a clear statement on the criminality of terminating a pregnancy up to the moment of birth by whomsoever. Is the intention to drive us into the arms of Rome? Is he as gobsmacked as I am?

[Andrew Selous]

I am grateful to my right hon. Friend for his interest in these serious issues, which, given their importance, I am sure the House will want to treat sensitively. I will convey his comments to the leadership of the Church, but just to repeat: the Church is supporting the two-week reduction in the age of viability from 24 to 22 weeks, based on the latest available evidence that foetuses do survive from 22 weeks onwards. It is also supporting protection for Down’s syndrome children to make the case that abortion beyond the legal limit should not be acceptable for such children. The Church supports the continued prosecution of medical practitioners who assist with abortions beyond the legal limit.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Andrew Selous and Desmond Swayne

Thursday 22nd February 2024 Commons Chamber

[Sir Desmond Swayne (New Forest West) (Con)]

6. What guidance the Church issues for clergy on supporting asylum seekers wishing to convert to Christianity.

[Andrew Selous]

Both archbishops have offered to meet the Home Secretary, and the Church has provided advice and guidance for clergy to consider when dealing with requests for baptism from asylum seekers. The guidance refers to the need for discernment and recognises that there may be mixed motives on the part of asylum seekers requesting baptism.

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[Andrew Selous]

I hear very clearly what my hon. Friend says. I know that he, like me, takes seriously the reputation of the Church of England. He cares a great deal about it, and I am grateful to him for that. I repeat the answer I gave my hon. Friend the Member for Kettering (Mr Hollobone): priests are required to use discernment, to recognise that there might be mixed motives, and always to put forward truthful representations of character.

[Sir Desmond Swayne]

I heard the words of my hon. Friend the Member for East Worthing and Shoreham (Tim Loughton) as well. When there is plenty wrong and plenty to complain about, it is not always the case that we should blame the established Church, is it?

[Andrew Selous]

I am grateful to my right hon. Friend. Any institution run by humans will never be perfect, but he is right that the Church of England was unfairly accused of being involved in some cases, when it had no involvement at all.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Andrew Selous and Desmond Swayne

Thursday 11th January 2024 Commons Chamber

[The Second Church Estates Commissioner (Andrew Selous)]

The House may not be aware that the Anglican Church is one of the largest providers of healthcare and education globally. The al-Ahli Hospital in Gaza is an example of this. Before Christmas, the hospital was severely damaged again and a tank demolished its front wall. Most of the hospital staff were taken away by the Israeli Defence Force and the Church of England has asked the Government here to inquire about their wellbeing and whereabouts and to request that they be released.

[Sir Desmond Swayne]

Intimidation by hard-line settlers has prompted the Patriarch to say that clergy are fighting for their lives, and that the Armenian quarter faces a violent demise. Is a Christian presence in Jerusalem still viable?

[Andrew Selous]

I am grateful to my right hon. Friend for bringing this issue before the House. He is right: a century ago, a quarter of Jerusalem was Christian; now, just 1% of the population is, and in the Armenian quarter of the old city, the Christian presence has come under intensified threat from intimidation and aggressive property acquisition by settlers. The Church of England is very concerned that the rule of law should prevail in Israel and the status quo be maintained. It is unconscionable that Christians should be driven from the holy land.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Andrew Selous and Desmond Swayne

Thursday 20th July 2023 Commons Chamber

[Sir Desmond Swayne (New Forest West) (Con)]

4. What recent steps the Church of England has taken to participate in the community sponsorship scheme.

[The Second Church Estates Commissioner (Andrew Selous)]

I am able to reassure my right hon. Friend that the Church remains closely involved with the Ukraine community sponsorship scheme. Many bishops and churchgoers and hundreds of clergy have opened their homes to host Ukrainian evacuees.

[Sir Desmond Swayne]

That is reassuring, given the wind-up that the bishops raised in the House of Lords over the Illegal Migration Bill. What more can the Church do to encourage people to support and take in Ukrainians?

[Andrew Selous]

The Church of England is developing a new strategy for community sponsorship, building on the launch of community sponsorship in 2016 by Amber Rudd, when Home Secretary, and the Archbishop of Canterbury at Lambeth Palace. The Church will continue to use its presence in every community to raise the profile of community sponsorship, as it has been demonstrated to work well for all concerned.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Andrew Selous and Desmond Swayne

Thursday 15th June 2023 Commons Chamber

[Sir Desmond Swayne (New Forest West) (Con)]

1. What steps the Church of England is taking to encourage church choirs to engage with local schools.

[The Second Church Estates Commissioner (Andrew Selous)]

The Church of England has enthusiastically supported the Government’s Sing Up programme, encouraging local music hubs to partner with churches, and enabling the use of skills and knowledge that schools would otherwise have to buy in. I am sure that my right hon. Friend, as a strong supporter of singing in church, will very much approve.

[Sir Desmond Swayne]

When will they be singing up in the New Forest?

[Andrew Selous]

I am very pleased to be able to tell my right hon. Friend that the new co-director of music at St Mary’s church in Fordingbridge, Hazel Ricketts, is running a singing club, working with 53 children in local schools every week. Her expertise in church music will enable that work to expand next term to include all four local schools, both primary and secondary. I am sure that my right hon. Friend will want to go to enjoy this wonderful singing for himself.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Andrew Selous and Desmond Swayne

Thursday 27th April 2023 Commons Chamber

[Sir Desmond Swayne (New Forest West) (Con)]

4. What discussions the Church of England has had with international counterparts on the desecration of religious sites in the Holy Land.

[The Second Church Estates Commissioner (Andrew Selous)]

In the first three months of this year, seven cases of serious vandalism and antisocial behaviour against churches have been recorded in Israel. That is a sharp increase on the previous year. The Church of England continues to work with the Anglican Archbishop of Jerusalem, the heads of other Churches, other faith leaders and the Jordanian Government, as custodian of the holy sites, to maintain the peace.

[Andrew Selous]

I am grateful to my hon. Friend, who is right to draw attention to the Easter fire ceremony at the Church of the Holy Sepulchre. That 2,000-year-old ceremony has repeatedly taken place without serious incident. It is certainly our view that the restrictions have been overly heavy-handed. As he will know, the Archbishop of Canterbury has called out what has been happening—the attacks on Christian graves and so on —as blasphemous attacks. The UK Chief Rabbi has also spoken out, as we need to do across the House. I hope the Foreign Office will have similar things to say.

[Sir Desmond Swayne]

Last Thursday, the Minister of State at the Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office, my right hon. Friend the Member for Sutton Coldfield (Mr Mitchell), came here and announced a strategic partnership with the Government of Israel. That ought to give us some influence over the level of vandalism and antisocial behaviour to which churchgoers are being subjected, oughtn’t it?

[Andrew Selous]

As always, my right hon. Friend makes an important point. He may have seen that over Easter the Latin Patriarch said:

“The frequency of these attacks, the aggressions, has become something new. These people feel they are protected…that the cultural and political atmosphere now can justify, or tolerate, actions against Christians.”

Attacks are simply not acceptable, whether against Christians or people of any other faith or no faith. I hope that what my right hon. Friend has said, as a distinguished former International Development Minister, will be heard loudly and clearly at the Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Andrew Selous and Desmond Swayne

Thursday 26th January 2023 Commons Chamber

[Sir Desmond Swayne (New Forest West) (Con)]

6. Whether the commissioners have made an estimate of the proportion of the Church’s assets that may have a link to a historic involvement with slavery.

[The Second Church Estates Commissioner (Andrew Selous)]

The Church Commissioners have not tried to draw a direct line from historical investments to current assets, given the myriad inflows and outflows over 300 years. Our forensic accountants estimate that investments linked to the slaving activities of the South Sea Company were equivalent to several hundred million pounds in today’s money. That is deeply shameful to acknowledge, and while no amount of money will ever be enough to repair the horrors of the past, the Church Commissioners have decided to invest £100 million over the next nine years in a better future for all, particularly in those communities affected by historical slavery.

[Sir Desmond Swayne]

Can my hon. Friend assure me that the not disproportionate £100 million will be spent to reduce the shocking persistence of slavery in the present?

[Andrew Selous]

The £100-million fund will enable impact investment grant funding and research in response to the findings in the Church Commissioners’ report. An oversight group will be established to help the Church Commissioners shape and deliver that response. Today the Church Commissioners, as award-winning ethical investors, punch well above their weight in combating modern slavery and human rights violations all around the world.

Equal Marriage: Church of England

Debate between Andrew Selous and Desmond Swayne

Tuesday 24th January 2023 Commons Chamber

[Andrew Selous]

The whole House will have been deeply moved by what the hon. Gentleman has said. I get his passion and strength of feeling on the issue. I do not know whether he had a chance to see the Church of England press conference last Friday. The Archbishop of York was deeply moved by what the Church of England did last week, as in fact was the Archbishop of Canterbury, who mentioned a former member of his congregation who was gay and who later took his own life. What a terrible tragedy that was for the Archbishop of Canterbury and for many, many others.

In a sense, the Church of England—if it will forgive me for saying this—has almost managed to upset absolutely everyone because these proposals clearly do not go far enough for some. I just ask the House to understand that there are some who are deeply grieving and troubled because they believe that the proposals have gone too far. The hon. Gentleman is right: we read the same Bible. It is slightly strange, Madam Deputy Speaker, I do not even have a degree in theology and here I am, the only person in the whole Parliament who speaks for the Church of England. But I study the Bible, like the hon. Gentleman, and I know that good and true people can come to different conclusions about it. He will know that and respect that. I thank him for his gracious and very moving words.

[Sir Desmond Swayne (New Forest West) (Con)]

Having been the Government Whip on the Equal Marriage (Same Sex Couples) Bill, I can say that this is a typical Church of England fudge, but all the more welcome for that because there are other fish that have to be fried, aren’t there?

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Andrew Selous and Desmond Swayne

Thursday 17th November 2022 Commons Chamber

[Sir Desmond Swayne (New Forest West) (Con)]

6. What recent discussions he has had with the Church on strengthening its parish ministry.

[The Second Church Estates Commissioner (Andrew Selous)]

Parish ministry is at the heart of the mission of the Church. The Church Commissioners will distribute £1.2 billion between 2023 and 2025 to support our mission and ministry—a 30% increase on the current three-year period—and the lion’s share of this funding will be used to revitalise parish ministry.

--- Later in debate ---

[Sir Desmond Swayne]

The Church Times is full of adverts for well-paid jobs at diocesan headquarters, yet clergy are spread ever more thinly across the parishes. It is the wrong priority, is it not?

[Andrew Selous]

I can tell my right hon. Friend, who I know takes a close interest in these matters, that by far the largest share of diocesan expenditure goes on parish clergy, and many diocesan secretaries are reducing central costs to support parish ministry. We should remember that hard-working diocesan staff support parishes, church schools and chaplaincies on vital issues such as safeguarding, vocations, ministry training, youth work and social action, none of which I am sure my right hon. Friend would argue with.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Andrew Selous and Desmond Swayne

Thursday 8th September 2022 Commons Chamber

[Sir Desmond Swayne (New Forest West) (Con)]

7. What steps the Church is taking to help support Ukrainian refugees.

[The Second Church Estates Commissioner (Andrew Selous)]

Six bishops and hundreds of clergy have Ukrainian evacuees living with them, and the Church of England is using vacant vicarages in a number of places. Churches are also actively involved in recruiting new hosts where needed.

--- Later in debate ---

[Andrew Selous]

I am grateful to my hon. Friend for the interest that he takes in and the support that he gives to his local churches. It is wonderful to hear of the practical compassion in action of St Dunstan’s in Monks Risborough and St Mary’s in Princes Risborough. I know that those churches are making a big difference to the lives of Ukrainian refugees. I assure him that the Church is actively seeking new hosts where some families want to pass on that responsibility and it will keep on with this important work.

[Sir Desmond Swayne]

As we approach the six-month point, what action can the Church take to encourage members of their congregations to step forward—and the congregations themselves to support them—where some initial sponsorships are not renewed?

[Andrew Selous]

My right hon. Friend asks a typically pertinent question. I reassure him that many dioceses are developing schemes to rematch sponsors and Ukrainian refugees as the initial six-month placements draw to an end. We are also funding other support programmes for Ukrainians, for which I am extremely grateful. We must all guard against compassion fatigue.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Andrew Selous and Desmond Swayne

Thursday 23rd June 2022 Commons Chamber

[Andrew Selous]

It is a really important question. The bottom line must be a reduction in global persecution, which is going up, not down. Presidents and Prime Ministers need to prioritise this issue. We need better co-ordination with civil society. We need freedom of religion or belief in education and we want young freedom of religion or belief ambassadors.

[Sir Desmond Swayne (New Forest West) (Con)]

9. To ask the hon. Member for South West Bedfordshire, representing the Church Commissioners, what steps the Church is taking to tackle institutional racism.

[Andrew Selous]

Parts of the Church of England behaved appallingly in turning away Caribbean worshippers after the war. The Church has paid a heavy price in losing the spirit-filled vitality of those worshippers to spread the good news of Jesus. Work by Lord Boateng and the inspirational Peter Stream, which is drawing ordinands from a wide variety of races and backgrounds, is starting to redress that shameful episode.

[Sir Desmond Swayne]

The decision to refuse to ordain Calvin Robinson was a missed opportunity, but my hon. Friend is both a fair-minded and God-fearing person. I hope I can rely on him to ask the bishops to pray, reflect and reconsider.

[Andrew Selous]

I must say to my right hon. Friend that it would not be appropriate for me to comment specifically on an individual candidate for ordination. The period of initial formation for candidates is part of the discernment process, and not every candidate who starts training finishes it or is judged ready for ordination at the end of it. I am informed that, as with all applications for the ministry, this candidate was considered irrespective of Church tradition, political views or race.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Andrew Selous and Desmond Swayne

Thursday 28th April 2022 Commons Chamber

[Andrew Selous]

I thank my hon. Friend for raising an extremely important social justice issue. The Church is indeed concerned about it, which is why the archbishops established the commission. Evidence shows that 50% of unmarried men cite cost as a reason for not marrying. I think we can learn from the churches that have often provided not only a service full of love and meaning but free, individually tailored wedding dresses, with the congregation helping with food, drink and flowers. Actions like these can ensure that the joys of marriage are shared equally across every income group. However, the current situation should concern us all.

[Sir Desmond Swayne (New Forest West) (Con)]

7. To ask the hon. Member for South West Bedfordshire, representing the Church Commissioners, what steps the Church of England is taking to increase the number of candidates entering Holy Orders.

[The Second Church Estates Commissioner (Andrew Selous)]

In 2020, we saw the largest number of people presenting for ordination in a decade, following a sustained commitment by the church to increase vocations, especially from global majority heritage candidates and women. There was a 14% increase in 2020, compared with 2019, and although the pandemic has caused a temporary reduction, we believe that the numbers will soon return to pre-pandemic levels.

[Sir Desmond Swayne]

What do clergy say is the most rewarding aspect of their ministry, and might that be used to encourage others to take Holy Orders?

[Andrew Selous]

Clergy deserve our thanks for all they do to promote spiritual and material wellbeing and especially for what they did during the pandemic, which massively increased demands on them. To answer my right hon. Friend’s question, many would say that the opportunity to share the good news of Jesus in teaching worship and in service to others inspires them, and what a privilege it is to be present at the most significant moments of a family’s life, whether that be baptism, marriage, comforting the dying or a funeral. If I may, I should like to pass on my particular thanks to the Rev. Chris Lawton for the exemplary way in which he took my mother-in-law’s funeral last Friday.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Andrew Selous and Desmond Swayne

Thursday 27th January 2022 Commons Chamber

[Andrew Selous]

I am particularly grateful to the hon. Lady for mentioning Nigeria, because the situation there, in many cases, is extremely challenging for Christians. One practical thing that she could do is to get the Open Doors’ World Watch List—the map—and send it to all the churches in her constituency, so that they can put it in their porch to make sure that everyone is aware of the situation. That will help them hold her to account, and we all need to hold the Government and those other countries to account to make sure that freedom of religion and belief holds.

[Sir Desmond Swayne (New Forest West) (Con)]

4. What steps the Church of England is taking to support parenting and marriage.

--- Later in debate ---

[The Second Church Estates Commissioner (Andrew Selous)]

The Church is deeply committed to marriage and will always be there to support every family and household. It is for that reason that both archbishops have launched a commission on families and households to look at what more the Church can do to provide the very best marriage preparation and enrichment and to strengthen family relationships.

[Sir Desmond Swayne]

What are the very best examples of preparation and enrichment and classes for parents, and what is the Church doing to spread it about?

[Andrew Selous]

My right hon. Friend asks a typically astute question, and, like any national institution, the Church has examples of outstanding practice, which are not as widely shared as they should be. Although there is excellent work in every diocese, I have been particularly impressed by the pre-marriage course, which is also for couples who are not engaged and want to explore marriage, and the marriage course run by the Reverend Nicky Lee and his wife, Sila. These have been run in 127 countries for more than 1.5 million couples and get tremendous feedback.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Andrew Selous and Desmond Swayne

Thursday 22nd July 2021 Commons Chamber

[The Second Church Estates Commissioner (Andrew Selous) [V]]

I am enormously grateful to all three of my right hon. and hon. Friends for continuing to bring the House’s attention to the ongoing, horrific levels of persecution of people for their religion or belief.

[Sir Desmond Swayne]

How concerned is my hon. Friend about the rise of persecution of Christians in India, and is there anything to be done?

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Andrew Selous and Desmond Swayne

Thursday 25th June 2020 Commons Chamber

[Andrew Selous]

I thank my hon. Friend for that question, and I can tell her that the Church of England pensions board already supports the social housing market through investments in social housing bonds. The commissioners also make provision for social and affordable housing on housing developments as per local planning requirements, while being required, like all charities, to obtain best value reasonably obtainable in the market when disposing of assets. But I am keen to explore whether the Church Commissioners are able to play any further role in solving the nation’s housing crisis. The Archbishop of Canterbury’s housing commission, which the Bishop of Kensington co-chairs, is looking separately at wider housing policy, and I am engaging closely with that work.

[Sir Desmond Swayne]

I used to enjoy a hymn sandwich before this interdict, but I have broken the habit. How is my hon. Friend going to lure us back if we are not allowed to sing? May I suggest, as a minimum, shorter services, even shorter sermons, some comfortable words from the Book of Common Prayer and an end to prating prelates?

[Mr Speaker]

Well, Andrew Selous, sing to that one.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Andrew Selous and Desmond Swayne

Thursday 6th February 2020 Commons Chamber

[Andrew Selous]

Being relatively new in post, I am afraid that I am not immediately aware of that, but I am very happy to raise the hon. Lady’s concerns with Nigel Genders, our director of education at Church House, and I will get back to her.

[Sir Desmond Swayne (New Forest West) (Con)]

6. What steps the Church is taking to assist persecuted Christians in Nigeria.

[Andrew Selous]

The Archbishop of Canterbury knows Nigeria well and has visited it on a number of occasions. He is extremely aware of the local tensions and context of this issue. The recent attacks in northern Nigeria by Boko Haram and Islamist militia are a source of profound concern to him and the Church.

[Sir Desmond Swayne]

Is my hon. Friend satisfied with the progress in implementing the Bishop of Truro’s findings?

[Andrew Selous]

I know my right hon. Friend takes a very close interest in these matters. Ten of the recommendations from the Bishop of Truro’s review have been, or are being implemented, and the others are being worked on. Our diplomats are using the review to engage their host Governments wherever there are abuses of freedom of religion or belief.