amendment of the law

Debate between Anne Begg and Mike Weir

Tuesday 25th March 2014 Commons Chamber

[Mr Mike Weir (Angus) (SNP)]

The changes to pensions and annuities have caused a great deal of interest in my constituency, but many constituents are unsure what it means for them. This is dangerous, because the changes are being introduced quite quickly and many people will have to decide whether to defer taking their pensions until the changes come into play.

At one of my surgeries on Friday a constituent who had already bought an annuity asked me whether he could now take a lump sum instead. I fear that the answer to that is no as he had already entered into an annuity contract, but it shows that there may be some ill feeling about the sudden change among those who have only recently bought annuities.

It is also not clear to many constituents that the changes apply only to defined contribution schemes. Many are unsure what type of scheme they are in. Another constituent asked me how the changes affected his company scheme, but it seemed to me that that scheme was a hybrid, with elements of both defined contribution and defined benefit. Again, my understanding of the changes is that they would not apply to such schemes, at least at the moment. Have the Government given any thought to whether hybrid schemes will be affected? Will the possibility of taking a lump sum from such a scheme be limited, and if so, what impact is that likely to have on the scheme as a whole?

While I appreciate that anyone who is considering what to do would be well advised to seek professional advice, these are serious issues that require a clear answer to allow constituents in such schemes to determine what is in their best interests. They may have to do so fairly quickly. The changes could mean a huge change in how people save for their future, but I suspect that it will also mean a huge change in how such savings are viewed, both by the general public and, crucially, by future Governments.

[Dame Anne Begg]

The hon. Gentleman has rightly challenged the Government about the uncertainties caused by the changes proposed in the Budget. Can he enlighten the Scottish people as to the attitude of a Scottish National party Government on the proposals if, heaven forfend, there is a vote for independence?

[Mr Weir]

I may as well ask the hon. Lady what a future Labour Government would do, given that Labour has flip-flopped on the proposals since they were announced last week. When we achieve our independence, we will inherit these proposals, and a future Chancellor will improve them.

There is evidence from other countries that when such changes are made, a substantial number of people take their savings as a lump sum, rather than buying an annuity. There are very good reasons why people might choose to do so, and I accept the argument that we should allow them more choice over how they use their own savings. On Thursday, during the statement by the Minister of State, Department for Work and Pensions, the hon. Member for Thornbury and Yate (Steve Webb), I raised the question of whether these new pensions vehicles will be truly different from other forms of savings. That is important, because we have traditionally given greater tax incentives to allow savings for retirement that are not available for other savings products. If, however, someone entering a pension scheme can in future take the whole sum as a lump sum rather than as an annuity, what exactly makes that pension scheme any different from other long-term savings schemes? Will a future Government look at that and decide to end any tax reliefs, which could have a significant impact on future savings? In his response the Minister said:

“One of the differences between workplace pensions and other forms of saving is the employer contribution. Whereas someone of working age can save through any savings vehicle they like, it is only through workplace pensions that they get not only tax relief but the employer contribution.”—[Official Report, 20 March 2014; Vol. 577, c. 956.]

That is true to some extent, but it does not really address the question, as defined contribution pension schemes are not necessarily workplace schemes, so they do not all have an employer contribution. For example, many self-employed people may use such schemes. They get tax relief, but will that continue should the pension element of the scheme effectively be removed? Is it therefore the Government's intention to make a distinction between those schemes that have an employer contribution and those that do not? Do the Government intend to have a process for determining which schemes are pension savings and which are just ordinary savings? Again, some clarity on these points is much needed.

I also asked the Minister how someone, say in their late 50s, who comes to claim means-tested benefits would have their defined contribution scheme treated. I did not really get an answer to that point, so I shall put it again to the Exchequer Secretary. I put the question to the House of Commons Library, and it responded:

“Income from a defined contribution pension is treated as income for the purposes of means-tested benefits”.

So far, so good, and that is no surprise, but what is the position if someone has a defined contribution scheme and has the ability either to withdraw their money or take it as income? Up to now, that has not been an issue, as most people cannot get access to their funds until they reach retirement age, but the changes, as I understand them, will mean that anyone over 55 will have access to their fund.

A clue to what might happen is to be found in the rules for pension credit, where a person can be treated as having pension income for which they have not yet applied. The leaflet from the Pension Service “A detailed guide to Pension Credit for advisers and others”, which was issued last September, states:

“Notional income is income your customer does not actually get but is treated as getting. We may treat them as having notional income when they have: not claimed state pension but are entitled to it; not taken income available to them under a personal pension plan or a retirement annuity contract; deferred payments from an occupational pension; given up their rights to an income (from a trust fund for example) because they wanted to get Pension Credit”.

At present, such rules do not apply to means-tested benefits for people of working age. In this case, the present rules specify that income from a personal pension should not be treated as income available on application. Will that remain the case once it is possible for anyone who has reached 55 to take their funds from their pension plan?

It may well be that some Government Members will be of the view that any potential income should be treated as income for the purpose of assessing state benefits, but the implications of that are that someone who has done what we all wish people to do and has saved towards their retirement but is then made redundant at a late stage in their working life, could have their whole retirement fund wiped out because of a period of unemployment. Again, clarity is needed on that point. Similar concerns arise over those who are in care and meeting care costs, which is a point raised by the hon. Member for New Forest East (Dr Lewis) on Thursday and also by Age UK and the Joseph Rowntree Foundation.

Of course, the situation in Scotland is slightly different from that in England, but Jane Vass of Age UK is quoted in The Guardian as saying:

“The pension pot is protected from means testing. So when it is in a pension it can’t be touched but there is a risk when it comes out of that wrapper.”

It is possible that many of those who have been saving for retirement find that they have to use the fund to meet care costs, or perhaps a substantial part of their pot will go on meeting the costs of an insurance policy to meet future care costs.

Those are real issues concerning the whole set of changes to annuities, pensions and pension pots. People who are thinking of what to do with pension schemes that are coming to an end—do they take an annuity or do they defer until the new changes come in?—need that information now. Although the Government have said that advice will be available, it is not yet available, and it will probably be some time before it is. Clarity is needed now; otherwise, many people could make the wrong decision. It may be that they should take an annuity, or maybe they want to take the lump sum. They need proper advice now before the changes come into effect, possibly in 2015.

UK City of Culture 2017

Debate between Anne Begg and Mike Weir

Tuesday 21st May 2013 Westminster Hall

[Dame Anne Begg (Aberdeen South) (Lab)]

I thank you, Mr Weir, for your words, and the hon. Member for Southend West (Mr Amess) and other colleagues for securing this debate. As one of those who also put in for this debate, I am absolutely delighted that it is taking place this morning. I appreciate the difficulties that you have, Mr Weir, because when I tried to lobby you to support the Aberdeen bid, I discovered that you were supporting Dundee.

[Mr Mike Weir (in the Chair)]

I am completely neutral.