House of Lords: Governance

Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton Excerpts

Tuesday 20th January 2015 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

My noble friend is absolutely right. To be absolutely clear, some joint services are already operating between this House and the other place. The joint procurement service is the most recent example of this—through that joint procurement service we have already achieved some significant savings and ensured that the service provided remains effective and operates well. However, my noble friend is right: when we look at other possibilities of services being shared, we have to ensure that we do not end up being in any way subordinate to the House of Commons.

[Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton (Lab)]

My Lords, would the Minister care to comment on the final point made by my noble friend Lord Hunt on equality in decisions taken about the refurbishment of the Palace of Westminster? Surely we do not want a situation where this House is excluded from the Palace of Westminster for too long.

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

The noble Baroness is right to remind me that I did not address that important point. We have already agreed that a Joint Committee of both Houses will take decisions relating to the Restoration and Renewal Programme. One House will not take a decision in the absence of the other: it will be a joint decision.

Implications of Devolution for England

Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton Excerpts

Tuesday 16th December 2014 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

I am very grateful to my noble friend for that point because he is quite right. It was very welcome to see just how many Labour leaders of local authorities within England wanted to contribute to this process. We are grateful to them and we hope that the Labour leadership will take its lead from them.

[Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton (Lab)]

My Lords, does the Leader of the House accept that for many of us there is a difference between the current Government’s decentralisation programme, where Labour leaders of local authorities are working with the Government of the day, and genuine devolution? I nail my personal colours to the mast of regional devolution in England. I do not believe that the people of the north-west of England, where I live—I accept that I do not represent them—should have their health policies determined by the predominance not only of the Westminster Parliament but of London and the south-east. We have different problems; we need devolution. I want to see a proper examination of that before something is cobbled together as a matter of urgency. What has changed for the Conservative Party that it wants instant action now?

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

It is open to the noble Baroness to put forward her ideas for matters that should be considered as part of a constitutional convention; that has not been ruled out. However, it is worth reminding your Lordships that regional devolution by way of regional assemblies was tried before and was not successful; it was not welcomed by people in regions. However, we have ensured throughout this Parliament that we have given greater authority and control to all parts of England than had happened before, and we want to see more of that.

European Union (Referendum) Bill

Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton Excerpts

Friday 31st January 2014 Lords Chamber

[Lord Cormack]

I made my position very plain at Second Reading. I did not support those amendments because I believed it was sensible to give the Bill a fair passage. However, I accepted last week—and made a speech to this effect—that we had improved the Bill with those two amendments and the Bill had not in any way been destroyed in its intent or purpose. We must not now make ourselves a laughing stock by talking too long or by too many of us talking. We need to get this Bill through today so we can have Report next week or as soon as possible. The Commons must make the final decision as to whether this Bill goes on the statute book.

[Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton (Lab)]

My Lords, the noble Lord has spoken about sticking to the rules in your Lordships’ House. I listened carefully to what he said and could not detect whether he was speaking for or against the amendment in front of us. I was quite clear last week that he was against the amendments that he now admits have improved the Bill. Information would be helpful.

[Lord Richard (Lab)]

My Lords, the last thing I am prepared to do, with great respect, is to have a lecture from the noble Lord, Lord Cormack, as to the functions of this House or the way in which we ought to behave. This whole Bill is a prominent and clear example of how this House should not behave. This is clearly a major constitutional issue; for it to be brought forward by a private Member in a rush, and to be told by Members on the other side of this House that we are not entitled to consider it properly, is not only arrogant, but positively impudent. I hope that the noble Lord, Lord Cormack, will reflect on this at some stage.

The noble Lord, Lord Cormack, said that the Bill was improved by the two amendments that we passed last week. That is true: it might be further improved by two amendments that we pass today, without destroying—as he put it—the purpose of the Bill. The amendments that have gone down were tabled with thought. They were not tabled in order to filibuster; they were tabled to deal with a situation into which this House—and indeed the country—should never have been put by this Government. If the Government had shown an ounce of steel in their relationship with their own right wing, we would not be in this position today. They have not and we are in this mess, which is what it is, and we must now try to deal with it, but to be lectured by a sermon from the noble Lord, Lord Cormack, is, frankly, almost too much.

I will try, perhaps, to calm down slightly. I have an amendment in this group—Amendment 73—which I hope the noble Lord, Lord Cormack, will think is helpful and constructive. It is a serious attempt to deal with the difficulties raised by this Bill in terms of legislating now for what might happen in the next Parliament. The next Parliament after the next election will be a different Parliament from the one that is now sitting. In those circumstances, that Parliament should have a say—and a direct say—given by this Bill, and not by some general constitutional doctrine that no Parliament can bind its successors. It should be given by this Bill in the sense that, before the Bill actually comes into force—it can be passed in this Parliament if that is what Parliament wishes to do—a resolution is passed by both Houses in the next Parliament saying that the Bill should now come into force. That is an attempt to deal with the dilemma in which we are placed, that we have a Bill in this Parliament designed to take effect in the next Parliament. Let me wrap it up: that is the effect of the Bill. It is not designed to take effect in this Parliament; it is designed to take effect in the next Parliament.

Therefore, it seems to me that in those circumstances, it is only just, reasonable and fair—and, indeed, constitutional—that that successor Parliament will have some say in whether and how the Bill comes into force. My amendment is not, I hope, a foolish one or a filibustering one. I said in my speech that it was not a filibustering one: it is not going to go on for very long, anyway. It is an attempt to square this very difficult circle in which we have been placed by the shenanigans of the party opposite, and particularly by the Government. The amendment aims to square that circle, by providing that, although the Bill is legislating for something designed to take effect in the next Parliament, the next Parliament will nevertheless have a direct say as to whether or not that should take place.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Liddle]

My Lords, this debate has raised another set of issues that need to be properly and thoroughly addressed before we put arrangements in place for any kind of referendum on our future in the European Union. On this side of the House, Members would be very sympathetic to the principle that my noble friend Lord Kinnock set out that we should have the broadest possible vote on this fundamental issue. I know the sort of arguments that some people might make against this. One is that that it would set a precedent for voting in general elections and local elections, but I do not think that it would. An EU referendum is fundamentally different; it is certainly not a vote for a councillor, an MP or a Government. It is a vote not for eternity, perhaps, but for generations ahead. The Prime Minister’s phrase about “no return ticket” comes to mind. It is a different type of vote from any other that we are likely to have in this country in the near future, and therefore needs to be considered differently.

There is a second, more low-level political point. Even now, with the debate that we have had, I am sure that we run the risk of seeing some headline in the Daily Mail that says, “Peers demand the vote for foreigners in British EU referendum”. I can well imagine that being the headline—and I see that the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth, thoroughly agrees with that proposition and thinks that such a headline would be right.

The question of EU citizens living in this country and of British citizens living in the EU has to be treated in the same breath. It is basically an issue about the people who have shaped their lives around the fact that we are members of the European Union. This referendum proposes to put at serious risk the rights to live, work, study, retire, marry, partner and do whatever else you want, which are enormous enhancers of human freedom. Let the UKIP people say how they would deal with these rights. As a simple matter of the rights of these citizens—both EU citizens here and UK citizens in the rest of the EU—this matter deserves the greatest consideration.

[Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton]

My Lords, I can see the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth, nodding at points on the issue of the views that may be expressed in the Daily Mail. I hope that your Lordships will forgive me if I remind the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth, that during the passage of the legislation to establish the Scottish Parliament he supported his much lamented friend John MacKay when he argued that the waiter from Brussels living in Scotland would have a vote but his daughter who worked in Brussels and was Scottish would not. I know that the noble Lord will make certain that the views he expresses on this Bill will be in line with his firmly held principles on that occasion.

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean]

I have been tempted to rise. Actually I was not in this House when my late noble friend Lord MacKay was performing at the Dispatch Box, and the Scotland Bill is not a piece of legislation that I am associated with as a great friend. The noble Lord is making a very curious argument because in the Scottish referendum, Scots who have made their lives south of the border are being given no votes at all. It is very unfortunate that the noble Baroness should pick on Scotland as an example because it makes the case against her noble friend.

Woolwich and the EU Council

Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton Excerpts

Monday 3rd June 2013 Lords Chamber

[Lord Hill of Oareford]

I obviously agree that Britain and other western countries have made a contribution and that it is important that that message is communicated. It needs to be done in such a way that the message will have resonance. By the same token, it is extremely important that all members of local communities, whether they are Muslims, Christians or whoever, work in the way that the noble Lord suggests. They must make it clear that the fear that some people perhaps have is not based in reality, given the behaviour of this country and the West towards Islam.

[Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton]

My Lords, will the Minister give an assurance that the Government, in looking at tax evasion and capital being moved around, will also look at the rights of workers, many of whom are being abused by the very companies that evade taxation and then criticise our income support projects, which are there to make up those companies’ shortfalls? Secondly, will he join me in saying that not only are extreme forms of Islamophobia unacceptable, but that parents, teachers and youth workers should listen very carefully for those children who, because of what they hear at home, or because of prejudice or for other reasons, can be heard using the phrase “You’re a Muslim” as a term of abuse? It is low-level abuse but it is a problem. I remember the head of a school in Lancashire many years ago saying, “We don’t have to deal with this because we don’t have any of those children here”. However, that low-level abuse can lead to an atmosphere of hostility. I hope that the Leader will agree with me on that.

[Lord Hill of Oareford]

I certainly agree with the common-sense point that the noble Baroness makes, and I am sure that everyone would agree. On her first point, the particular Council meeting talked about tax, but I will make sure that my colleagues who deal with these things day to day have heard the noble Baroness’s remarks about employment rights and the rest of it.

Procedure of the House

Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton Excerpts

Wednesday 24th April 2013 Lords Chamber

[Lord Hill of Oareford]

My Lords, topical Questions each week are dealt with in precisely that way. As I have said, we would need to agree in the Procedure Committee, in just the same way as we would if we end up with a Back-Bench debates committee, the criteria by which that committee will reach decisions, because the House will want to know on what basis the judgments that the Back-Bench debates committee is making are being determined. At an earlier stage, the proposal for the Back-Bench debates committee was that it would make the consideration and would not have to give reasons, perfectly properly, for why it had reached its decisions. Whichever route we go down, we will have to have a set of criteria within which we operate, so that the House knows what the basis of the decision is.

My point, though, is that I am not proposing new procedures. The proponents of a Back-Bench debates committee are proposing a new procedure. I am effectively saying that we would still have the way in which we have already operated for a long time. There could be some improvements in terms of different criteria, cut-offs and so on, if that is what people want to pursue, but we would fundamentally stick with the current system. It is those who want to change the system who are proposing the innovation.

[Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton]

My Lords, the noble Lord the Leader has referred several times to the establishment by the Procedure Committee of some sort of guidance. To whom is the guidance given in this system if we do not have a Back-Bench committee? I do not follow this. I understand the lottery and I understand the Back-Bench committee but, if I do not like the interpretation of the guidance that leads to a particular result, to whom do I complain?

[Lord Hill of Oareford]

The guidance would be available to Members of the House in the same way as our guidance is currently available to Members of the House.

To move on, the issue of principle on which we are being asked to decide today is simple: do we want to stand by our current approach or do we want to introduce a new filtering mechanism for this new package of time, whereby a Back-Bench debates committee makes these decisions and decides what will be debated on behalf of us all? That, in essence, is what we are being asked to decide.

I want to make one final point, and then I know that the House would like to hear from Back-Benchers. Those in favour of a Back-Bench debates committee will obviously want to vote in favour of the Motion for resolution before the House. Those who are not in favour will want to vote against when the Lord Chairman moves it. For those who are not sure once they have heard all the arguments, it would be possible to stick with our current overall approach, perhaps refined in some respects, and see how the proposals for a guaranteed regular slot for a topical debate and more debates in the Moses Room bed down. In the light of that experience, it would of course be open to those who still favour a Back-Bench debates committee to bring forward those proposals again.

I hope that I have set out some of the background, explained the proposals and highlighted the essence of the decision that we are being asked to take. I am sure that we will hear some powerful speeches. I look forward to us reaching a decision on this matter of principle, but most of all to being able to crack on in the new Session with the new opportunities for debate that I have identified.

House of Lords: Oral Questions

Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton Excerpts

Thursday 21st March 2013 Lords Chamber

[Lord Hill of Oareford]

Er. I contend that short questions tend to lead to shorter answers. As for giving a guarantee on behalf of the entire Front Bench that they will always be able to provide the clarity that my noble friend seeks, I cannot go quite that far.

[Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton]

My Lords, does the Leader of the House agree that supplementary questions often occur because the Minister has answered the question that they wish had been asked rather than the one that was asked?

[Lord Hill of Oareford]

My Lords, I think there are a number of reasons why supplementary questions are asked. I looked at some figures that took a snapshot of the first six weeks of this year. They showed, somewhat to my surprise, that nearly 230 Members of your Lordships’ House had either asked Questions or supplementary questions in that period, which I thought was rather an encouraging figure and higher than I expected. There is, however, a point which the noble Lord, Lord Campbell-Savours, raised: not all those 230 Members asked one question.

House of Lords: Membership

Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton Excerpts

Thursday 28th February 2013 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton]

My Lords, as a member of the Leader’s Group under the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, and as a Whip in your Lordships’ House, I would not hazard a guess as to the number of noble Lords who would take permanent leave of absence. However, I recollect, when I was in both those roles, a number of noble Lords who attended quite regularly and with great difficulty because they felt that they had been asked to come in and serve for life. I would not dream of naming them, but some are quite regular attendees because they feel honour bound to attend because they feel that, were they to cease to attend, their expertise, which some have said they feel is a little out of date, would not be replaced in the interest of not making the House too large.

[Lord Hill of Oareford]

I understand that point. As is normally the case with the noble Baroness, it is sharp, perceptive and fair.

I am conscious that the House would like to move forward. I will say a brief word on the Motion that was moved by my noble friend Lord Steel of Aikwood and about our powers of regulation in this area. The Leader’s Group got it right when it said that it could not recommend a moratorium on new appointments to the House. That must be correct. The Life Peerages Act 1958 gives the Queen the power to create peerages for life, with the right,

“to receive writs of summons to attend the House of Lords and sit and vote therein accordingly”.

Therefore, I agree with the way that the noble Lord, Lord Hunt of Kings Heath, and my noble friend Lord Cormack approached the issue. I cannot see that our right as an individual House to self-regulate includes the power to override that Act of Parliament.

I have set out why I believe that the Motion in the name of my noble friend Lord Steel calls for much action that has already been taken, and restraint that has been exercised. I have listened to the debate and recognise clearly that Members on all sides feel very strongly about the question of size. However, I hope that the figures that I shared with the House demonstrate that some beliefs about the issue of overall size are not quite borne out by the facts.

I believe very strongly that we must do more to accommodate rising attendance and the consequent increase in demand from Members, especially newer Members, for opportunities to take part in our work. I have strong sympathy with those who are uncomfortable about Members convicted of a serious prisonable offence returning to the House. Pending primary legislation to exclude Members on those grounds, I would certainly support steps to explore measures that we ourselves might take to discourage Members in that category from taking part in the work of our House.

Those are two areas in which we can help ourselves. On the remainder, noble Lords have set out their clear views forcefully. I have attempted to set out the Government’s position. I have no doubt that our discussions, both on the Floor and elsewhere, will continue. I will certainly play my part in those. In the mean time, I hope that the noble Lord, Lord Hunt of Kings Heath, will withdraw his amendment.

Business of the House

Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton Excerpts

Thursday 29th November 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, this is pedantry. If the noble Lords opposite really did not want these Statements they could have said so and the Statements would not be taking place.

[Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton]

My Lords, can the noble Lord the Leader of the House confirm that because this procedure is being accepted by him—and, I presume, very shortly by the House—we can therefore assume that the party other than the Conservative Party in the coalition did not feel strongly enough on student tuition costs or the Health Bill to issue a separate Statement?

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, the noble Baroness, and no doubt other noble Lords, can make all sorts of accusations to my noble friends as part of this coalition. I think that it might be better if we wait until we have seen the response of Lord Justice Leveson and the Statements, and then the noble Baroness can make whatever point she wishes.

Arrangement of Business

Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton Excerpts

Monday 5th November 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Dixon-Smith]

My Lords, perhaps a rather naive Back-Bencher on this side might intervene. We continue to discuss this matter in the context of a specific amendment. That, to me, is not the point at issue. The point at issue is that if we accept this amendment in its present form, against the advice of the clerks, we open the door for any Member of this House to do precisely the same thing again—and again. It is my private view that if we go down that road, those who have tabled this amendment and are insisting on it will live to regret the day, and the future administration of this House will be infinitely more difficult than it has been—or indeed is at this present moment.

[Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton]

My Lords, last week the Leader of the House gave a reason to the House for the action that he took. Was the advice he received about the power of the Leader of the House to pull something from the Order Paper on behalf of the Government, or acting as leader of his party?

I find tragic the way in which the role and use of the usual channels have been diminished in your Lordships’ House over the past two years. I do not know whether all the parties in the coalition were made aware before a decision was taken about the procedure that the noble Lord has followed in changing the expected business or whether the other party in the coalition was informed after the decision had been taken.

I had a few years’ experience as a government Whip and I am aware of the way in which the usual channels used to work. I cannot recall any occasion when what was done by the Leader of the House was done by merely informing the usual channels rather than discussing it with them.

I have to tell the Leader of the House that there is a view outside your Lordships’ House that he may, as Leader, have convinced enough people to be able to carry the argument that time needed to be spent to reflect on the issue, but the action that he took on Thursday and the resulting effect today will be viewed by the cynical, within and without your Lordships’ House, as merely a response by the Conservative Party, as part of the coalition, facing a defeat. Many people will believe that. I listened so hard to the Leader of the House, waiting for a good reason for the business to be changed.

Secondly, in my view, to start putting matters on the Order Paper after the House has risen on a Thursday on issues about which Members across the House feel very strongly is discourteous. I did not think I would ever stand up in your Lordships’ House and feel the right to say that I believe the Leader of this House has behaved discourteously. However, on this occasion, I do.

[Lord Crickhowell]

My Lords, like the noble Lord, Lord Hart of Chilton, I am a member of the Constitution Committee and I have always held him in the highest respect—I do not think that we have ever disagreed about a matter of substance during our discussions in the committee. I had not intended to speak today; I had hoped that the matter would be resolved; but it is necessary to say that there is another reason why we should be very cautious about moving in this way—it does not arise from the procedures, though I think that they are important. In my view, the tabling of this particular amendment to this Bill in the way proposed flies in direct conflict to every single criterion and bit of advice that the Constitution Committee of this House has proffered. It is in contradiction to what we advised as being the proper process for constitutional change in a report that we produced in the previous Session. Indeed, in the report that we produced on the Bill that we are supposed to be debating, we congratulated the Government on having in an exceptional way followed the advice about the manner in which constitutional issues should be debated; that is, they should be debated with plenty of notice and the opportunity for wide consultation and consideration. To table at the last moment an amendment to another Bill that has been more widely considered in this House than almost any legislation in my time here and widely supported, without any opportunity for prior consideration—or, if it had been tabled on the day in question, without the importance of the matter being drawn the attention of the House—is an appalling way to conduct a significant constitutional matter.

In the normal course of events, if a piece of legislation comes forward which has constitutional implications, the Constitution Committee is given the opportunity to consider it, to take the advice of its extremely capable advisers and to produce a report to this House so that it is fully aware of what it is doing before it debates the matter. This has not been possible on this occasion; the Constitution Committee has not had the opportunity to consider and report; and so, quite apart from the importance of the procedural matters that the Leader of the House has drawn attention to, I believe that there are other, very important reasons why we should not go down this route. This is not the way to carry out constitutional change.

Financial Services Bill

Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton Excerpts

Monday 18th June 2012 Lords Chamber

[The Earl of Erroll]

My Lords, I can remember when the whole Grand Committee thing started, and the first assurance was that only non-controversial Bills would go to Grand Committee. The whole point was that in the old days—not that they are so very long ago—we used to divide on matters of principle in Committee, which meant that we tidied up on Report, and that was much more efficient. The challenge with Grand Committee is that it delays everything, and then we have a huge argument on Report that goes on interminably.

Then we have the problem with the limited rules on amending at Third Reading. Before, we would divide on principle in Committee and tidy up on Report, with half the length of debate. Then at Third Reading we would discuss things only when there had to be a final little adjustment because a mistake had been made. It was very unusual to put forward amendments at Third Reading, which is why they were so restricted. With the new procedure of going to Grand Committee, you can have wonderful debates but then you have to do it all over again on Report, which causes problems at Third Reading. We must either have yet another reading to tidy up before Third Reading or go back to dividing in Committee. We should remember that not only the person putting forward the amendment in Committee has the option to divide; anyone in the House can call a Division on an amendment that is proposed. So if noble Lords think that someone is wasting time by withdrawing an amendment in Committee to bring the whole thing back on Report, I suggest that someone stands up and calls for a Division.

[Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton]

My Lords, having sat next to my much missed friend Lord Williams of Mostyn, I wish to set the record straight. I am sure that the Leader of the House did not wish in any way to mislead the House, but having sat next to Lord Williams of Mostyn through all the discussions on the introduction of Grand Committee procedure, I fear that he would be appalled that there was Division in the House over the issue. He was a man committed to sensing the House’s mood, reaching a compromise and avoiding this sort of unseemly debate in your Lordships’ House.

Secondly, it is my understanding—this is not my area of expertise—that the noble Earl, Lord Erroll, is absolutely right about what happens at the different stages. It is confusing for everyone if some parts of the Bill can be voted on in Committee and others cannot and if rules apply to certain parts of the Bill at Third Reading but not to others. I think that will lead to confusion. It is also my understanding that the Bill tackles a serious problem; if sizeable numbers of people in your Lordships’ House—I am not talking about majorities—feel unable to support the compromise, to use the Leader’s words, surely it would be better to accept the proposals of the noble Lord, Lord Hamilton of Epsom, and work in the way that I know Lord Williams of Mostyn would have wanted.

[Lord Myners]

My Lords, at Second Reading last week nearly 40 Peers spoke. It was an excellent debate that was very skilfully handled by the Minister, notwithstanding the fact that the Whips endeavoured to cut some speakers short, even though that is clearly not accepted at Second Reading. I think that that tells us something about the Government’s attitude to trying to rush this process.

This is not a controversial Bill in a party political sense. However, it is controversial in the detail, not just in the first five clauses but throughout the Bill. It would be wrong to believe that Clause 6 and later clauses do not themselves deserve very close scrutiny, handling, as they do, matters such as consumer affairs and protection and banking resolution. The noble Earl was correct to point out that the procedures in Grand Committee are very different from those in a Committee of the Whole House. As a Minister, I took legislation through Grand Committees and through Committees of the Whole House. The argument that officials in Grand Committee are seated in the Box behind the Minister and are therefore immediately available to provide assistance is much overstated. This is a very important Bill. It creates, in the office of the Governor of the Bank of England, the most powerful unelected person in the country and deals with a problem that has beset the economy for four years. The nation would expect the Bill to be publicly debated on the Floor of the House. For that reason, I support the amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Hamilton.

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[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, let us assume that it would take exactly the same hours on the Floor of the House and in Grand Committee. The fact that it was on the Floor of the House would mean that we would be unable to progress on other Bills, which would have to wait their turn. We would therefore need to find other days in which to complete our business.

Like the noble Earl, Lord Erroll, I remember when we used to sit until 1 or 2 am. We got a lot of business done in the early hours of the morning. Before I get another lecture from the noble Baroness, Lady Farrington of Ribbleton, I had endless discussions with Lord Williams of Mostyn about this. He would get quite heated on the subject. He said that it was wrong for legislation to take place late at night or in the small hours, and it was on that basis that we had a Grand Committee. The reason why the House now needs to take a view is that if we are going to go against the practice of the past 10 years and not send complex Bills to Grand Committee, which we have done many times before, we will have to revisit this subject in the Procedure Committee.

Finally, Labour's legislation on the Financial Services and Markets Bill, which was a substantial and weighty piece of legislation of two volumes, was passed through this House in Grand Committee.

[Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton]

My Lords, before the Leader of the House sits down, Lord Williams of Mostyn was absolutely clear that Grand Committee procedure was for non-contentious Bills. His view was that the House should be able to make that judgment. The Leader of the House has failed to tell the House which major pieces of legislation are waiting in the wings that will now not be able to be debated, because we are not aware of them.

[Lord Strathclyde]

I urge the noble Baroness to read the record of the debates that we had at the time. If she can find the evidence for that, of course I will withdraw everything that I have said about Grand Committees. I assure her that when I was Leader of the Opposition, we understood perfectly well that Grand Committees were for all or any Bills, and that only constitutional Bills would sit on the Floor of the House.