Modern Slavery Bill

Baroness Garden of Frognal Excerpts

Monday 1st December 2014 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Butler-Sloss (CB)]

My Lords, I waited until I had heard the noble Lord, Lord Rosser, before expressing any views on these amendments. I entirely understand the admirable motivation behind the proposal made by the noble Lord, Lord McColl, but one has to bear in mind that prostitution is one of the oldest trades over hundreds of years, if not thousands.

Something somewhat similar was proposed in the other place by Fiona Mactaggart MP. I certainly received a large number of e-mails about it from the various associations of women prostitutes. They were very much opposed to the sort of legislation which has now come before this House, although I understand that it is not exactly the same as that which was proposed by Fiona Mactaggart. Having said that, there is undoubtedly a real problem, because some of those who are prostitutes are certainly trafficked.

I recall going to a small town in Holland where, as noble Lords will know, prostitution is legal. I saw women sitting in the windows in what was quite a small town. The curtains were open if they were not working, and they were all on their mobiles talking to the pimps. There is no doubt at all, from what the local mayor told me when he took me round, that he knew that a large proportion of these women were actually trafficked, although they could not tell him that and they were all registered for business purposes, if you can believe that. He arranged for his staff to ask them whether they had come as victims of trafficking, but none of them would say so because they could not afford to do so.

There is a very major problem in this country, as well as in Holland and in other countries. I strongly support the amendment tabled in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Rosser. The time has come to look at prostitution right across the board, but particularly at its impact on women who come into this country—or are already in this country—who are in fact the victims of slavery, and who are not doing this work voluntarily.

[Baroness Garden of Frognal (LD)]

My Lords, I am most grateful to noble Lords for speaking so eloquently to Amendments 31 and 31A. I am grateful to my noble friend Lord McColl, who has given us the chance to look at this difficult and controversial issue of prostitution law. He highlighted the difficulties of exploitation and, indeed, the work of the APPG. Prostitution raises strong moral and ethical questions, but the Government’s overriding priority in this context is the safety of people involved in it. Existing legislation regarding buying and selling sex is already focused on minimising the harm and exploitation that can be associated with prostitution. Of course, not everyone involved in prostitution has made an independent and free choice to do so. We need the law to protect the vulnerable and punish the perpetrator, but when considering these amendments, we must consider carefully whether we are confident that they support the safety of the people involved in prostitution.

My noble friend set out the approach of Sweden and some neighbouring countries, often referred to as the “Nordic model”, which his amendments seek to emulate. We are also aware of recent legislative developments in Northern Ireland, alluded to by the noble Lord, Lord Browne. We are mindful of the reservations expressed by the Northern Ireland Minister of Justice about the value and effectiveness of this approach. This is of course a devolved matter, so it is for the Northern Ireland Assembly to take the approach that it feels is most appropriate for it, but we know that the Northern Irish Minister of Justice opposed the adoption of the Nordic model for the same reasons that the coalition Government oppose it: it is far from clear that the change would make a vulnerable group safer and may do the opposite. We certainly would not seek to create any unintended consequences that made life more difficult for the people involved in this difficult area. As the noble and learned Baroness, Lady Butler-Sloss, has indicated, submissions received from organisations such as Women Against Rape and the English Collective of Prostitutes have shown that such an approach can encourage the sellers and buyers of sex to operate further out of sight, exposing them to a greater risk of violence.

At this stage, we do not believe that there is sufficient evidence of the value of such significant changes to the legal and moral position of buying sexual services in reducing harm to those involved. We can well understand the principles behind my noble friend’s proposed amendments to the criminal law on prostitution. We have heard from around the Committee strong opposition to all violence against women and a common desire to protect them. However, as regards prostitution, it is important to reflect that there is an alternative view, as expressed by a variety of organisations that represent people involved in it. This challenges the position that all paying for sex is by definition violence. Before legislating, we should have a full debate on these important moral issues, as a number of noble Lords have indicated.

On exiting prostitution, raised by the noble Lords, Lord Hylton and Lord Rosser, the amendment also sets out a requirement to publish an annual strategy for assistance and support to those who wish to leave prostitution and it is absolutely right that they should be supported in doing so. The Policing and Crime Act 2009 took steps to improve the safety and support available for individuals involved in prostitution through the introduction of Section 17 engagement and support orders. That legislation provides the courts with an alternative to fining those convicted of loitering and soliciting: a requirement to attend meetings with a court-appointed supervisor. Engagement and support orders came into force on 1 April 2010. This is deemed to be an effective tool in providing support and access to services that might otherwise be out of reach, including medical care, housing and drug/alcohol dependency programmes. The right reverend Prelate mentioned the connections with other forms of drug and alcohol dependency. This is considered to be a more constructive long-term approach.

Such an approach is fundamental to our focus on minimising the harm that can be associated with prostitution. As such, it is part of our broader approach to violence against women and girls—an action plan that is kept under constant review. We support emphasis being put on supporting those who wish to exit prostitution, but legislation is not necessary to achieve this worthy aim.

Amendment 31A would place an obligation on the Government formally to review any links between prostitution and human trafficking and exploitation, including the legal frameworks around prostitution both here and overseas. Contributions to this debate have emphasised the importance of evidence and consultation. Legislation on this difficult and sensitive topic needs to be approached judiciously to ensure that our shared aim, harm reduction, is being served.

The coalition Government are committed to tackling all forms of violence against women and girls, and are pursuing a range of measures to improve protection, reporting, and prosecution. Our progress is constantly reviewed via the cross-government action plan on violence against women and girls. We are in regular dialogue with the relevant policing leads and the Crown Prosecution Service to ensure that legislation and its enforcement remain as effective as possible.

Visas: Student Visa Policy

Baroness Garden of Frognal Excerpts

Thursday 31st January 2013 Lords Chamber

[Lord Howarth of Newport]

My Lords, it is a pleasure for me today to follow the noble Lord, Lord MacGregor, as it was when he was Secretary of State for Education and I was his Higher Education Minister. Our vision then for higher education, as it remains now, is of a UK universities system that is internationalist and open to ideas, people and collaborations from across the world, with a diversified student body and diversified sources of finance and less dependence on the taxpayer. That remains the vision of Ministers at the Department for Business, Innovation & Skills, but it is apparently not the vision of the Home Office.

The message that comes from government is confused but is interpreted across the world as being that international students are no longer welcome in Britain. As a result, applications are down, particularly among postgraduate students, which is a great worry, and the share of the market in international students achieved by our universities is stagnant when it could be so strong. The best and the brightest, whom the Prime Minister wishes to encourage, are those who can most easily go elsewhere.

Why does the Home Office have a veto over BIS? The Home Office is pursuing in blinkers an inappropriate political pledge at the cost of damaging universities, our economy, our culture and our influence across the world. This is nothing to do with stemming the flow into this country of poorly skilled migrants, which is indeed a threat to employment and public services. It is nothing to do with dealing with the rackets at bogus colleges. There is a systemic failure in government.

Who are staff at the UK Border Agency to second-guess universities as to whom it is appropriate to admit? I fear that staff at the UK Border Agency are not themselves the brightest and the best. I hope that the Minister has had the opportunity to read the evidence given to us by Million+ on behalf of Modern Universities. It is a story of ever changing regulations, constant threats to universities and an absence of guiding principles and a proper code of conduct. There are reports of staff monitoring universities who are ignorant and sometimes in breach of the law and who behave with a rudeness and an incompetence that are entirely unacceptable. The tone of the Home Office and the UKBA in this area has been deplorable.

The Home Secretary has said that there should be an extra 100,000 out-of-country interviews. How is she to ensure that the agencies that carry out these interviews will be competent and not corrupt? One can only fear that this is part of a plan to reduce drastically the number of visas granted in the run-up to the general election.

It is right therefore, as the noble Lord and five Select Committees have said, that these statistics should be disaggregated while complying with the UN requirements so that university-sponsored students are taken out of the net target for migration. In that—

[Baroness Garden of Frognal]

My Lords, there are only three minutes each. People need to sit down the minute the clock hits three. I am afraid that there is no leeway.

[Lord Howarth of Newport]

I will simply say then that universities, business, cultural institutions and politicians of all parties are asking the Home Office to listen to what is being said and to change its approach. I very much hope that the Minister will be willing to do so today.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Phillips of Sudbury]

My Lords, before my noble friend sits down, I should be grateful if he would take a brief question.

[Baroness Garden of Frognal]

I am sorry, but the noble Lord, Lord MacGregor, has the right of reply.