Medicines and Medical Devices Bill

Baroness McIntosh of Pickering Excerpts

Report stage & Report: 2nd sitting (Hansard) & Report: 2nd sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Thursday 14th January 2021 Lords Chamber

[Lord Lansley (Con) [V]]

My Lords, I am very glad to follow the noble Lord, Lord Freyberg, who has made some very cogent points, both in that speech and when we discussed these clauses in Grand Committee.

I want to make two points. The first is about the structure of Amendment 18. I am not entirely sure that I understand why pharmacovigilance has been singled out in the amendment as a reason why disclosure should be made, as distinct from, for example, public health co-operation or the pursuit of research. Indeed, the Minister referred to the sharing of information in relation to international clinical trials as a very good example. If one were to legislate in this form, it would be inevitable that the reference to pharmacovigilance would be regarded as having additional weight, and the absence of reference to other purposes for which information would be shared would be regarded as less important. I am not sure that that would be at all helpful to have in statute.

My other point is in relation to Clause 7(5). Government Amendment 22 refers to and introduces a provision that assists in understanding the relationship between this legislation and other enactments concerning the disclosure of information. Clause 7(5) states:

“Nothing in this section authorises a disclosure of information which … contravenes the data protection legislation (but in determining whether a disclosure would do so, take into account the powers conferred by this section)”.


Noble Lords may recall the Trade Bill and, in particular, the debate we had on the Trade (Disclosure of Information) Act just before Christmas and new year. We passed legislation the purpose of which was, among other things, to ensure that we clarified the relationship between that enactment and others that authorise disclosures of information or, in some circumstances, prohibit such disclosures. The particular basis for the structure of that Bill was to clarify a situation where there is a statutory gateway and other enactments that put constraints on the disclosure of information.

In subsection (5) it is clear that if someone is considering a disclosure that might contravene the data protection legislation, that legislation must be considered alongside the powers in this legislation. That enables them to satisfy the test in the Christian Institute and others v The Lord Advocate 2016 Supreme Court decision, as referred to in my noble friend Lord Grimstone’s letter to us about the Trade Bill. In the Trade Bill, though, as is the case in this Bill, we have reference both to the data protection legislation and to the Investigatory Powers Act. In the Trade Bill, amendments were introduced on Report to ensure that the saving reference—that is, when determining whether a disclosure would contravene the legislation, it takes into account the powers in this section—was applied to both the data protection legislation and the Investigatory Powers Act. However, in this legislation—Clause 7(5)(b) —the saving reference is applied to the data protection legislation but not to the Investigatory Powers Act.

My question, which I am sorry I have not had an opportunity to give the Minister notice of, as I have started working through these issues only very recently, is this. Having dealt with this matter on the Trade Bill, I would have thought that both these subsections should have the saving reference that allows the question of the contravention of those Acts to be considered, including reference to the powers in this Bill. I wonder if he would agree.

[Baroness McIntosh of Pickering (Con) [V]]

My Lords, I am delighted to follow my noble friend, who speaks with such great authority both as a former Secretary of State for Health and as someone who has followed the Trade Bill and the Trade (Disclosure of Information) Act so closely.

At the risk of dancing on the head of a pin, the amendments in this group are quite close, and the Minister set out every reason why we should support his Amendment 17. He said that information would be shared only in the circumstances where there is perceived to be a public need. The amendments and explanatory statement of the noble Baroness, Lady Thornton, refine that by saying that, in the context of giving effect to an international agreement or arrangement concerning the regulation of human medicines, it should be disclosed only provided that it is in the public interest to do so. A number of noble Lords have spoken with great eloquence and passion on these issues, including the noble Lords, Lord Patel, Lord Clement-Jones and Lord Freyberg, and my noble friend Lord Lansley. I have to say that I personally would draw the line at disclosing information for a commercial need as opposed to a public one.

I have a particular question about Amendment 19, which clearly states that patient information cannot be disclosed where the patient could be identified and that that information cannot be given without their consent. I remember that I was once asked to participate in a study; I signed the form and was delighted to do so, and never heard any more about it. I would just like to know how Amendment 19 would work in practice. At what point, and by whom, would the patient be contacted if that information was about to be disclosed and their consent sought?

I have reservations about this group. I remember the important debate that we had on the Trade Bill in this regard, and I am delighted to see that those issues are being considered in the context of this Bill as well. I have two concerns that I hope can be allayed. The first is that public need should not be deemed to collude with commercial need where it might not be in the interests of the patient. The second is about informed consent: how will the patient be consulted within the provisions of Amendment 19?

[Baroness Cumberlege (Con) [V]]

My Lords, this has been an interesting and well-informed debate, and I am quite reluctant to enter into it. I support government Amendment 19 and particularly Amendment 20 tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones. I hope I have got this right, although I am very happy to be put right if I have not. As I understand it, Amendments 19 to 25 concern consent, relating very specifically to the disclosure of information in accordance with international agreements. This is information that I think a relevant authority such as the MHRA holds in connection with human medicines.

As I listened to the noble Lord, Lord Freyberg, he raised a question in my mind about devices. We know that pharmaceuticals are much more closely regulated than devices have been, so can the Minister tell us a bit more about instances where there is a comparable agreement, and perhaps an amendment, for medical devices? I want to know whether they are on all fours with pharmaceuticals. I suspect not. Having listened to the noble Lord, Lord Freyberg, I think that there is more to hear on this.

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[Baroness Masham of Ilton (CB) [V]]

My Lords, I am pleased to follow the noble Lord, Lord Lansley. I support Amendments 51 to 53 because it is important that the new clause will read “must” instead of “may”, so that the advice on medical devices will be clear and should be followed. “May” means it can be optional and makes the regulations weaker, and people might miss important aspects of care. There is no doubt that clear, correct information is the way to better patient safety. In many ways, communication within the National Health Service should be improved.

[Baroness McIntosh of Pickering (Con) [V]]

My Lords, I am delighted to follow the noble Baroness, Lady Masham, and earlier speakers in welcoming this group of amendments. I support government Amendments 50, 64 and 96 and welcome the placing of the advisory committee on a statutory footing, and particularly that the affirmative procedure will be used.

My question goes to the nub of Amendment 50—in which regard, if this is correct, Amendments 51 and others in this group will not be needed. Is it for the Secretary of State to decide what goes in the regulations on which presumably Parliament will be consulted under the affirmative procedure?

I can quite understand that the use of “may” appears to be discretionary, leaving open what should be included. Having got this far, it would be helpful to understand the thinking behind the use of “may” in Amendment 50, which indicates that this may be discretionary, whereas clearly it appears to be the will of the House that this is mandatory.

[Baroness Jolly (LD) [V]]

My Lords, we support these amendments from the Government and from the noble Baroness, Lady Thornton, which relate to the creation of a statutory committee to provide advice to the Secretary of State. Government Amendment 50 would allow the creation of such a committee in relation to medical devices, and the amendments in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Thornton, in this group would require the Secretary of State to create the committee in Amendment 50, as the Government’s amendment states only that the Government “may” create the committee, not that they must.

No Secretary of State should be above independent advice. Amendment 50 is no bad thing, and of course any advisory committee on a statutory footing should consist of patients as well as experts. I understand that there might be kickback on the amendments in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Thornton, but a Secretary of State will rarely have expertise in medical devices, so an ad hoc independent committee to inform, advise and warn would be very valuable. A lot of thought will need to be given to working out its terms of reference. We therefore support Amendments 51 to 53. As the noble Lord, Lord Lansley, said, it will also be critical to ensure how this committee will work alongside the MHRA.

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[Baroness McIntosh of Pickering (Con) [V]]

My Lords, I am delighted to follow the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay, and speak on this group of amendments. I can see that the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, speaks with passion and some considerable knowledge and experience of NICE. But I am concerned and would just like to understand, as we have established that patient safety absolutely has to be paramount, that patient safety could not be compromised through either of the two amendments—Amendments 46 and 66—in this group.

The noble Baroness, Lady Finlay, set out in the earlier amendment in Committee a two-year licensing procedure and, now that we have obtained an assurance that the approval processes are to be revised, I would imagine that the same procedure as set out under Amendment 66 should be considered as part of that review and revision of the processes. I would also like to further understand how a role for NICE as set out in Amendment 66 actually fits in with the Bill before us today and, in particular, the role as set out, and just agreed, of what the advisory committee should be.

My concern is absolutely that patient safety has to be paramount—first, foremost and bottom line. In my view, what is sought to be set out in these two amendments in this little group should be best done as part of an overall review of the processes to which the Government, as I understand, are already committed.

[Baroness Masham of Ilton (CB) [V]]

My Lords, I am grateful to my noble friend Lady Finlay of Llandaff for alerting me to the fact that government Amendment 45 pre-empted our Amendment 46. They were grouped on different days, but I am pleased that others were thinking on the same wavelength.

I am very happy to support Amendment 66 in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Hunt of King’s Heath. The availability of medicines and medical devices is top of my priority list. In fact, antibiotics have saved my life on several occasions. It is important that NICE adheres to health equality: everyone who needs medicines or medical devices should be treated equally and there should be no delay. Unfortunately, with this devious coronavirus, this has not happened, but we hope for better days.

Having experienced a member of my family dying, I know that sometimes it seems worth trying anything that might help and that is in the research process. There are many really rare diseases which need orphan drugs; they can be a lifeline to the individual. I hope that NICE will consider them without delay and realise their importance and value to these small patient groups. It is so frustrating when patients in Scotland and other European countries can get medicines and medical devices, when those in England cannot; patients here have to wait—unless the public come to their rescue by crowd funding.

Many users of devices also need instruction on their use, and staff and patients need training. Personal medicine is so important and patient safety is absolutely paramount.