European Union Bill

Baroness Nicholson of Winterbourne Excerpts

Tuesday 5th April 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Grenfell]

I apologise for not hearing all the introduction of the noble Lord, Lord Williamson. I was searching for Sir Patrick Nairne’s commission’s report on referendums issued 15 years ago. I found what I wanted; it is on the subject of thresholds. He said:

“The main difficulty in specifying a threshold lies in determining what figure is sufficient to confer legitimacy e.g. 60%, 65% or 75%”.

Forty per cent is modest to the point of indulgence. I cannot understand why anyone who is considering Amendment 6 would think that a threshold of 40 per cent of those entitled to vote was more than they could bear. It seems a big concession. Sir Patrick said in a footnote:

“A turnout threshold may make extraneous factors, such as the weather on polling day, more important”.

I have always been very suspicious of people who start talking about the weather in relation to polling, because it can work both ways. If it is pouring with rain, people tend to stay at home; if it is a beautiful, sunny and warm day, they can find external activities more interesting than going to a polling station. That theory does not work well.

My second point is that the Government cannot have it both ways. If you want to resort to a simple plurality in a referendum, you should bear in mind that the general sentiment in Parliament, and perhaps outside, is that major constitutional change should be the result of something more than a simple plurality. The obverse of that is that matters subject to a simple plurality cannot be quite so important. The Government cannot have it both ways. If they resort to a simple plurality, it suggests that they would consider the subject of a mandatory referendum as being of high constitutional importance. If it is not deemed to be of high constitutional importance, why is there the need for a mandatory referendum?

I am against referendums in general, but the idea of having a simple plurality for something that the Government do not consider to be of high constitutional importance is, quite honestly, unacceptable.

[Baroness Nicholson of Winterbourne]

My Lords, I am one of those who the noble Lord, Lord Foulkes of Cumnock, has not recognised this evening. I support the Bill, and I made that plain in an earlier debate. I wish to stress that again, because it appears that somehow I am Miss Invisible to the noble Lord, despite our long friendship.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock]

The noble Baroness is absolutely the last person who would be Miss Invisible to me. I have the greatest respect and admiration for her. If I went further, I would embarrass both of us. I can only apologise for not recognising her. Unfortunately, on this occasion, I must disagree with her profoundly on her judgment. Otherwise, she is wonderful.

[Baroness Nicholson of Winterbourne]

The noble Lord is of course a gallant Scot and turns a beautiful compliment. However, I have to disagree with many noble Lords on this batch of amendments, despite the eminence of those who have spoken for them, including the noble Lord, Lord Hurd of Westwell, whose work and leadership in politics I have followed all my life. Indeed, I have to disagree with even the noble Lord, Lord Hannay, because I believe I am correct in saying that the Government have answered the Constitution Committee, but the committee has not yet made the Government’s response open to the rest of us.

I am standing because I oppose the amendments, which seem to display a lamentable lack of confidence in the British public and their capability to make up their own minds and display their views clearly if they so wish. It is absolutely true that there has been a progressive alienation of the British public from the European Union’s activities. Sadly, that is not unique to the United Kingdom. That is perhaps the tragedy of the European Union. I personally perceive it as a great success. It has brought all nations together in a most wonderful way, involving peace and reconciliation, and it grows ever larger in its mission. None the less, in every member state that I know, the turnout in European elections is dismal. Unless people are forced to, they do not come out to vote for Members of the European Parliament, which is the directly elected portion of the European Union over which the general public can have some control, and they can at least have their own choice on who they wish to elect.

However, there is a fundamental reason for that that will not go away, and it is partly why I strongly support the Bill and oppose these amendments. The fundamental reason is that the European Union is by its nature an intergovernmental body and electorates naturally do not relate well to those bodies. It is to the great credit of the European Parliament that consistently it has raised its game. It has gained more authority and more power. However, with an intergovernmental structure, the intergovernmental side also moves ahead as the Parliament goes on, and it can never quite catch up. None the less, the directly elected European Parliament has far greater powers now than it has ever had. Therefore, this is the right moment to try to reconnect the British public with the European Union mission.