Waste (England and Wales) Regulations 2011

Baroness Quin Excerpts

Wednesday 16th March 2011 Grand Committee

[Lord Tyler]

My Lords, my noble friend was kind enough to refer to my noble friend Lord Greaves. I must confess that I am standing in for him with even more trepidation on this set of proposals than I did on the previous one, where I had had some role in the passage of the marine Bill.

I think that the first thing that my noble friend would have said is that it is rather unfortunate that all this paper before us appears not to be recycled. I do not know whether my noble friend the Minister can confirm this. The symbol that usually appears on documents of this sort to show that they are on recycled paper is not present. It may be that the emblems have been mistaken, but we all have an increasing responsibility to try to make sure that we practise what we preach.

I have one or two questions. First, will my noble friend confirm that the long period since the European Court of Justice decision of, I think, 2005 that is referred to in some of the notes before us has been put to good use in dealing with the issues then raised? It is quite a long delay. I accept that these regulations deal with the directive on waste of 2008-09, but it should surely have been the concern of the previous Administration to deal with the ECJ judgment previous to that.

Secondly, I am sure that my noble friend Lord Greaves would have been able to cope with the concept of co-mingled collection much more adequately than me because it is new to me—I have no doubt that the Minister is all too aware of it—but there is a real dilemma here, of which I shall give just one illustration. My own local authority insists that the transparent windows on window envelopes are detached from the envelopes and disposed of in a completely different way. It is the first time that I have come across that anywhere in the country. It may be perfectly acceptable under these regulations for co-mingled collection, but in my locality it is not. A huge number of envelopes have such windows, as I am sure other Members of your Lordships' House will know from the mail that they receive. Every time I go home, I find myself spending quite a long time detaching windows from envelopes. The regulations do their very best, with what is described as a light-touch approach, to marry the objectives of consistency through the whole country with localism—my noble friend the Minister has referred to that. However, it is a real dilemma for the householder who, perhaps like Members of your Lordships' House, has to dispose of refuse in different parts of the country on completely different bases. Co-mingled collection is obviously an interesting issue.

I understand from what the Minister said, as well as from the briefing that I have received, that the Government are very properly insisting on trying to avoid overregulation and on giving local authorities the opportunity to take their own decisions. However, on these matters, it makes for a postcode lottery, with businesses and households through the country faced with quite different concerns and costs. It should be a constant concern of any Government to try to get that balance right. I would like to be reassured that, under the regulations, the avoidance of gold-plating and the insistence on a light touch will not result in a plethora of quite different policies in different parts of the country. That is an inevitable dilemma.

I have one other point, on timing. I note that, under the directive of November 2008, it was intended that the Government should achieve this transposition by 12 December 2010. I understand that, as a result of their failure to do that on time, an infraction letter was issued which I presume the Government have had to take note of and respond to. I just wonder where that matter stands and whether the Minister is confident that the Commission will not be able to, or will not wish to, take further action since we are some two or three months behind time on that.

I cannot pretend to be a great expert on these regulations, and no doubt I will be subject to the inevitable scrutiny of my noble friend Lord Greaves afterwards, but he would at least be concerned that these proposals seem to have been quite a long time in gestation. It so happens that they appear to have been printed on paper that has not been recycled, but I trust that when it is collected in waste bins around your Lordships' House will be appropriately recycled in the future.

[Baroness Quin]

My Lords, these regulations are important. As the Minister pointed out, they transpose the Waste Framework Directive. Indeed, as the Explanatory Memorandum points out, in one way or another the fulfilment of the directive's objectives is of interest to everyone in the country—householders, local authorities, businesses, including small and medium-sized enterprises, NGOs, consumer groups and so forth. I am grateful that we have had the opportunity today to look at these regulations. I also thank the noble Lord, Lord Tyler, for representing the noble Lord, Lord Greaves, whose knowledge we miss on these occasions. I know that he has taken a deep interest in these issues for a long time.

Despite the fact that not many noble Lords are present for this debate or have spoken, these matters are of ongoing concern. I am sure that we will return to them at many points in the future on the Floor of the House and in Grand Committee. Certainly, the Opposition will be watching progress on this important matter carefully.

We are fortunate in that the Minister is in charge of this subject within the department. He is smiling—I hope that he is pleased to be in charge of it. Therefore, we are able to ask the relevant Minister the pertinent questions that need to be asked today and as this matter progresses.

The Minister reminded us that the regulations re-enact, repeal or revise three predecessor directives. With the EU, it is not always a case of adding new regulations. Sometimes, it involves repealing and scrapping previous regulations. I welcome the way that this has happened.

The noble Lord, Lord Tyler, mentioned that we were somewhat late in not complying with the deadline. He mentioned the infraction letter. I note that the Minister in the other place said that this was partly due to wanting to have as thorough a consultation process as possible. Obviously, I welcome the fact that a consultation has taken place. I note that the Minister in the other place also mentioned the point that was reinforced by the Minister here: that they had not wanted to gold-plate the regulations. However, I somewhat share the concern raised by the noble Lord, Lord Tyler. We are really just introducing the minimum requirements under the directive and keeping a light touch, as the Minister said. But we need to be assured that that light touch will be effective. We also want to be assured that encouragement to go beyond these requirements will be part and parcel of the system.

The last time that the Minister and I discussed environmental issues, his noble friend Lord Deben was present. He gave the Minister a hard time in terms of wanting an assurance that we could move faster in future. Many of the points that he made in the debate on the draft producer responsibility regulations should be borne in mind for this debate, such as the possibility of an earlier review if necessary.

In response to the noble Lord, Lord Deben, the Minister said in the previous debate that the timing and circumstances of the waste review meant that two years was an acceptable period. None the less, if there are ways in which standards can be raised more quickly, that would be of great interest to us.

Marine Licensing (Licence Application Appeals) Regulations 2011

Baroness Quin Excerpts

Wednesday 16th March 2011 Grand Committee

[Lord Tyler]

I think that we had 17 Committee evenings on that Bill. Some of them went long into the night but on the whole they were extraordinarily amicable, in contrast to some of our recent debates on other matters.

This is a very neatly designed scheme. It seems to be streamlined yet still transparent in terms of licensing and appeals under Part 4 of the Act. Of course, it is extremely important not just that there is a transparent process for licensing but that the appeals procedure is open to everyone to see how it works. In that context, and inevitably with a new system, the proof of the pudding is in the eating. It will not be until we have seen some case law and have had some experience of the system that we will know whether it is as fool-proof as one would hope.

Perhaps I may take up one point that my noble friend made. The Planning Inspectorate will decide whether the appeal is to be heard by means of written representations, a hearing or an inquiry based on the complexity of the case. The definition of “complexity” is obviously a matter of judgment. That is inevitable; we cannot prescribe it in advance.

I am sure that anyone who was involved in the long process of the legislation’s gestation through your Lordships’ House will remember that there were a great many interested parties, all of whom had an amazing array of expertise. I hope that, together with the consultation that has already taken place, experience over the next few months and years will show that the amicable, united spirit that we set in place is maintained. This is a very important new framework for the management and conservation of our coastal and marine neighbourhood. This set of detailed proposals looks relatively straightforward. I am happy to support them and to commend all those in both Administrations who have been involved in producing them.

[Baroness Quin]

My Lords, I, too, welcome these regulations. I thank the Minister for bringing them forward today and for the way in which he spoke to them. As he pointed out, they have already been considered in the other place, where they were generally supported. Indeed, as the noble Lord, Lord Tyler, recognised, they are supplementary provisions to the Marine and Coastal Access Act 2009, which, as he and the Minister pointed out, commanded strong cross-party support in both Houses of Parliament.

These regulations deal with licensing and enforcement issues. Under them, the Marine Management Organisation takes over most of the licensing and enforcement functions of the Secretary of State. We agree that the MMO is the suitable body to carry out these functions. We very much support the aims of making the system clear and transparent, which was one of the points that the noble Lord, Lord Tyler, stressed. We also support the fact that these two instruments, which are obviously linked, are being taken together in this debate, but perhaps I could ask one or two questions relating to the instruments separately, arising from reading the documentation in front of us.

Regulation 5(2) of the licence application appeals regulations mentions that the instrument,

“may provide for payment to be made to the appointed person”.

However, it was not clear to me what kind of payment this was. Obviously, we are talking about an appeals system and we want people to feel that they are able to appeal if they believe that a decision has not been correct. I simply wanted to ask what kind of payment, if any, might be involved in that process. I may have misread it, but I would be grateful for clarification from the Minister.

The Minister will not be surprised to hear me question whether the MMO has the staffing and resources necessary to undertake these functions. Page 2 of the impact assessment mentions the cost to the MMO in terms of training, new forms that have to be produced, changes to the IT systems and so on. I hope that the Minister can reassure us that the staffing and resources are there to be able to carry out these tasks.

I note that for the licence appeals system there will be a review in three years, but under the notices regulations the review will be two years after the introduction of the system of new monetary penalties and notices. I am not quite sure what date that means for the notices system, but I wondered, given how linked the two things are, whether the review period should be more or less the same for both.

The notices regulations introduce a,

“more flexible toolkit of enforcement options”.

We support that. As the Minister said, these provisions apply only where the Secretary of State is the appropriate licensing authority, so we are talking about England. I wondered, however, whether the devolved Administrations will have a similar or even the same system and in particular, in terms of monetary penalties, whether the devolved Administrations will have systems that are very much aligned with the one that will be introduced in England.

I found the impact assessment generally very helpful. However, I refer the Minister to paragraph 61 on page 21, which talks about the cost of familiarisation with guidance. It says:

“It is assumed that 20% of those holding FEPA licence will each spend 40% of a working day familiarising themselves with the guidance”.

To me, that somewhat begs the question: what about the other 80 per cent? Perhaps the answer is elsewhere in the document; if I have simply misunderstood it, perhaps the Minister can put me right on that point, either now or in writing.

As my colleague William Bain noted in the other House, these regulations comply with the Hampton recommendations on taking unnecessary matters out of the courts. As the noble Lord, Lord Tyler, said, they introduce a reasonable system, so I am happy to support these additional measures, which complement and supplement the 2009 Act.

[Lord Henley]

My Lords, I am very grateful to the noble Baroness and to my noble friend Lord Taylor for their remarks. I will join my noble friend Lord Tyler in paying tribute to the previous Government—it is only occasionally that we do such things—for the passage of the Marine and Coastal Access Bill. I would also add how sorry we are that the noble Lord, Lord Greaves, who spent so much time on that particular Bill, as my noble friend Lord Taylor remembers it, is not able to be here today.

As regards how this legislation works, my noble friend Lord Tyler said that the proof of the pudding will be in the eating, and he referred to the problem in terms of the definition of “complexity”. I can give some sort of assurance from my ancient memories as a pupil at the planning bar—a very, very long time ago—that this is well understood in planning law. In terms of transposing—perhaps I may use that EU expression—these matters on to general planning law, there will be a great problem. Obviously, there will be questions of fact and degree as to where something lies and whether it should be undertaken by written representation, by some other appeal or by general public inquiry. However, these matters have previously been dealt with without too much problem.

The noble Baroness, Lady Quin, first asked about payments. I understand that a salary or fee will be paid by the planning inspectorate to any appointed inspector, as has always been the case. That is what happens with terrestrial planning systems—they are paid for the work they do, as is right and appropriate. She also asked about staffing, saying that I would not be surprised by her question on whether the MMO would be able to meet its commitments. We have certainly taken advice from the MMO enforcement team on the level of resource required for this activity. It is perfectly happy that it has budgeted accordingly and will be able to deal with everything that it needs, as set out in the impact assessment.

I shall turn to the noble Baroness’s complicated question—I am not sure whether I have got it right—about the different review timescales we have set out for two different things. One is of three years and the other two years. I understand that we are committed to monitoring and reviewing the use of notices after two years. Obviously, appeals on that system are different. However, if I have not quite understood her exact concern, I will certainly write to her and set out a proper response.

I am grateful that there is general agreement on both these two orders and the fact that they should be agreed. If I have failed to answer any of the concerns expressed by the noble Baroness and the noble Lord, Lord Tyler, I will obviously do so in writing. In the mean time, I commend the regulations to the Committee.

Public Bodies Bill [HL]

Baroness Quin Excerpts

Wednesday 9th March 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Cameron of Dillington]

My Lords, I support this series of amendments. It is a pleasure to be speaking on this Bill in the early hours of the evening rather than in the early hours of the morning.

All three political parties have committed themselves to putting in place a groceries code adjudicator, and this seems to be a golden opportunity to do so. It would make the Government popular with farmers, consumers and at least three of the supermarkets, which have agreed the appointment of such a person or body if it was to apply across the board. Some of the free marketeers among you might question why an ombudsman figure is necessary in an open and free marketplace. You might say: surely in a free market where there is more than one buyer, the seller can go elsewhere. However, that equal balance of interest implied in the phrase “willing buyer, willing seller” simply does not exist where the buyers are so big and the sellers are so small.

More importantly, that balance of interest does not exist when the seller and supplier has to plan his cropping as much as 18 months in advance, within probably a five-year rotation, and organise the acreage, and buy the seed, the fertiliser and the spray, often with the seed variety and the treatment being specified in detail by the particular buyer. The farmer has to have his whole farm often audited and inspected by the particular buyer. Without this audited inspection he cannot sell his crop, or the buyer will not buy it. Furthermore, each buyer or supermarket has a different auditing system in place, so the farmer cannot easily change the buyer; certainly not without a long notice period. The farmer also may have to invest in specified capital and machinery. All this takes place 18 months to a year before the crop is sold and before a price is agreed.

Unfortunately there is ample room for the big boy to manipulate the sale to his advantage when the little man has nowhere else to go when the buyer’s terms or the buyer’s price turn against him. If the farming venture has involved borrowing the large sums of capital for irrigation, cold stores processing and the like, the smallholder farmer probably has nowhere else to go for the next year either.

The supermarkets may claim that an adjudicator is not necessary. In that case, there is no danger to them or to the consumer if one is put in place. In my view, it will be a great insurance policy for the farmer—and for the consumer—if one is put in place. Therefore, I urge all three parties to use this opportunity to fulfil their election promises. It is crucial for the future of UK agriculture and the fair balance that we need to achieve.

[Baroness Quin]

My Lords, I, too, welcome these amendments and am glad that they have been tabled. I welcome the comments that were made by the noble Earl, Lord Sandwich, in introducing the amendments and the helpful background that he gave us. I also welcome the comments made by my noble friend Lord Borrie and by the right reverend Prelate, who I know has taken a great interest in this issue. Like the noble Lord, Lord Cameron, I welcome the fact that on this occasion we are dealing with this important issue at a civilised hour rather than in the early hours of the morning.

I believe that the amendments are necessary to try to clear up the confusion surrounding where in government machinery the adjudicator, formerly the ombudsman, will reside. In answer to a question by the noble Earl, Lord Sandwich, on 7 February, the Minister said that he did not know where the adjudicator was going to be situated. That might have been a commendably honest reply, but now that we have had the chance to return to this subject today, I hope that we will be able to get more information about the Government’s exact intentions.

My noble friend Lord Sewel on that same day asked if the adjudicator could be part of this Bill. That is another reason why I welcome the amendments. Given all the controversial inclusions in this jumbo Bill, it would have been good to have something in it on which there is such clear, cross-party support.

When the Government announced in August last year that they were going to establish the adjudicator, the original expectation was of a draft Bill coming forward this past autumn. Given the strong cross-party support for this measure, the delay is regrettable. However, the Minister has said that the intention is to bring in a Bill this Session. In the other place, in Answer to a Written Parliamentary Question, mention was made of a draft Bill coming forward before Easter. Will there be a draft Bill first, and what will be the timing of the draft Bill and the full legislation to get the adjudicator’s role and work up and running?

The establishment of a supermarket ombudsman was favoured and initiated by the previous Government following a recommendation from the Competition Commission. From these Benches, I reiterate our strong commitment to that, as the Minister will be aware. One issue that has surfaced in recent debates in this House has been the scope of the adjudicator's remit. I notice that the adjudicator is called the groceries adjudicator, and I assume that his main function concerns food. But I was interested that in a debate that we had a week or so ago in this House on the ethical clothing industry, the Minister said that consideration could be given to widening the adjudicator’s remit. I welcome the fact that the Government are prepared to look at that, because supermarkets sell a great deal these days and have a strong position on their suppliers, whoever those suppliers happen to be. At the same time, while I welcome the Government’s openness on this matter, I would not want to see that as the cause of any further delay in the establishment of the adjudicator, because a very clear message has come from this debate that speed is extremely important and uppermost in people’s minds. Obviously, if there is a draft Bill, the scope and remit could be looked at—and perhaps the Minister could comment on that point.

The powers of the adjudicator, including naming and shaming and what further sanctions might be possible as a result, were mentioned by the right reverend Prelate. Again, any clarification from the Minister about that would be welcome.

This Bill must seem like a Christmas tree Bill to the many departments, with various items of business that they wanted to lumber on a jumbo Bill of this kind. However, while it might be a Christmas tree Bill for departments, it is a nightmare Bill for parliamentarians. I was very much taken with the phrase used by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Howe of Aberavon, who described it as a nuclear Bill. It abolishes and changes so many bodies, some big and some small, and rides roughshod over parliamentary procedures. However, this matter is one on which there is agreement between Parliament and Government and for which there is cross-party support, so I hope that the Minister will respond positively to the points that have been made.

[Lord Henley]

My Lords, like other speakers, I am grateful that we are having this debate early in the afternoon. Sadly, I will also be doing the penultimate amendment that we are dealing with today, which might happen in the early hours of tomorrow morning—just as I did the penultimate amendment late on Monday, or early on Tuesday, a couple of days ago.

I should also say how grateful I was to hear quite such a large number of quotations from myself, from that relatively brief Question that we had on this matter on 7 February. It is gratifying to hear that so many noble Lords listened to what I had to say. I hope that I can add a bit to that in dealing with these amendments.

I start by repeating something that the noble Lord, Lord Borrie, said when he paid tribute to what the supermarkets have done for the consumer. That is very important to remember whenever we debate these matters; we forget it at our peril. They have given us greater choice, cheaper prices and, as the noble Lord, Lord Borrie, put it, possibly “improved the shopping experience”, whatever that means, but I think I have quoted him correctly.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Bradshaw]

My Lords, I move the amendment on behalf of my noble friend Lord Greaves, who is ill. We will wait for the Government’s proposals on the British Waterways Board. However, we are particularly concerned about whether a trust such as the National Trust would be able to shoulder the many burdens that will fall on it. Noble Lords who are members of the National Trust will know of the increasing number of appeals that it makes for extra funds to keep its portfolio of properties in good repair. They will also know that the National Trust is being offered more properties that owners cannot maintain. One of our major concerns about the British Waterways Board is that it carries a large burden of maintenance—maintenance of waterways not just as a recreation facility but as a facility for drainage and the conduct of water across parts of the country. There are also a number of public duties that the British Waterways Board undertakes and for which it gets government money. It is difficult to see how a charitable trust will carry out those duties.

I am particularly concerned to bring to your Lordships’ notice the fact that a number of waterways administered by the board carry considerable quantities of freight. Obviously, the board does not administer tidal waters, but it looks after the Aire and Calder Navigation, the South Yorkshire Navigation, the River Ouse to Selby and York, the Trent to Newark and Nottingham, the Severn, the Weaver in Chester and the Union Canal and River Lea in London. It has a big portfolio of interests in the freight business. I am not sure whether the charitable trust that the Government have in mind will take over these freight interests. If the trust is concerned mainly with amenity waterways, it will have only a passing and diminished interest in freight. That is important because these waterways convey very heavy freight which, if transferred to the roads, would add greatly to congestion and road damage, visiting more expense on the Government.

When the proposals come forward for the board, we will expect plenty of attention to be given to the financial burdens that it will take over and a reasonable estimate of the amount of money that it will be able to raise as a charity from walkers, fishermen, boat users, birdwatchers and whoever else uses the canals. We will also want to know in particular how the Government intend to shoulder the huge burden, which has been underfunded in recent years, of keeping the waterways in good repair. I beg to move.

[Baroness Quin]

My Lords, I am glad that the noble Lord, Lord Bradshaw, was able to move the amendment in the absence of the noble Lord, Lord Greaves, who takes a great interest in these issues. I welcome the fact that the amendment allows us to ascertain in more detail the Government’s intentions on this issue.

The future of British Waterways is very important. In many ways, the idea of a national trust for the waterways is exciting. The previous Government’s plans for the future of the waterways were not dissimilar. However, the noble Lord, Lord Bradshaw, was right to raise a number of detailed issues and to seek necessary reassurances about how the system will operate in future and how the wide and varied responsibilities of British Waterways can be assured to a high and satisfactory standard in the interests of us all.

I note that the provisions in the Bill deal with England and Wales. Will there be any alteration, given the recent transfers of responsibility and strengthening of responsibility within the devolution system in Wales? Have there been any discussions with the Welsh Assembly Government on that? I note also that Scotland has opted not to go down the same route as the Government have proposed for England and Wales. Again, given the fact that waterways are an asset to all of us in the UK, I would like to know what discussions there have been with the Scottish Government on this and whether any practical problems were identified in those discussions. The co-operation arrangements between a new English and Welsh organisation and the devolved Administrations are an important aspect, which must be given proper consideration.

A consultation on these arrangements is about to take place, although the Government have already made quite clear their preference for the future of British Waterways. Therefore, what is the main purpose of the consultation? Will it be simply about how the new arrangements will work? If the consultation came up with different proposals for the future of British Waterways, would they be taken into consideration? Our waterways are obviously very important to many of our citizens and to a variety of users, whether they are people involved in boating or whether they are anglers, walkers and cyclists or those who simply enjoy the peace and quiet of many areas administered by British Waterways. I agree with the Government when they talk about the need for local involvement in the way in which the waterways are operated. However, the waterways are also an important national asset and it may be necessary to strike a balance there in the future.

Public Bodies Bill [HL]

Baroness Quin Excerpts

Monday 7th March 2011 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Quin]

My Lords, the Public Bodies Bill contains many important bodies but it is somewhat frustrating to have to deal with important bodies such as these at something of an unsocial hour. However, I am very grateful to my noble friend Lord Judd for speaking to the amendments in the way that he did, and indeed for moving Amendment 70 in the absence of the noble Lord, Lord Greaves, to whom we wish a very speedy recovery.

These amendments relate to important bodies which are well established and, as the noble Lord, Lord Maclennan, said, rightly attract a great deal of public enthusiasm and support. Therefore, we need to scrutinise this part of the Bill very carefully.

All noble Lords who have spoken in the debate have tried to get at the Government’s thinking regarding these bodies and why they have been incorporated into the Bill. Certainly, the attachment to the national parks and the Norfolk Broads is very clear-cut. The creation of national parks has been a big event ever since the Act of 1949, the designation of the first park being the Peak District. For our part, the Labour Government are proud of having presided over the creation of two new national parks in the New Forest and the South Downs.

As well as public support for the national parks, there is already a long-standing campaign for them, to which the noble Lord, Lord Judd, referred; he also referred to his role in that campaign. In a briefing, the Campaign for National Parks has submitted its views on the inclusion of national parks in this part of the Bill. I shall not read that out, but many of the points in the briefing have already been referred to by many noble Lords. I hope that the Government will look at the briefing carefully and respond to it before Report so that we feel we are better informed about the Government’s attitude and their intentions.

At present, as noble Lords have pointed out, there is a considerable amount of uncertainty. My noble friend Lord Hunt referred to the sword of Damocles hanging over organisations. There is a worry that what is being proposed will undermine the independence and the basic purposes of these organisations. Again, for that reason, I urge the Minister to give us some reassurance about what the Government have in mind on these issues. In many ways, it seems that we are doing things the wrong way round but, if the Government have certain changes in mind, they should come forward with them and try to make a convincing case for them, then have the consultation and then make the decision about the way forward. Putting national parks in the Bill appears to pre-empt the consultation, which has just closed, on the future governance arrangements of the parks.

My noble friend Lord Berkeley said that he understood that there had been no real consultation or discussion with the Government about the Norfolk Broads. I hope that the Government will address that point in reply. We have had consultation, which is something, but it would be good to have from the Minister a flavour of the results of that consultation and any interim thinking within the Government as a result of the responses to the consultation.

A number of noble Lords, including my noble friend Lord Judd, asked whether the provisions in the Bill were necessary because it seemed that they could be covered by other legislation already in force, particularly the Natural Environment and Rural Communities Act 2006. I am not absolutely clear whether that would cover the Norfolk Broads as well as the national parks. There seem to be claims that it could and claims that it could not, but perhaps that is something which the Minister could clarify in his response.

I say to the noble Lord, Lord Deben, that I do not think anyone on this side is saying that things should be ossified for all time in terms of national parks or the Norfolk Broads or any other organisation. None the less, as the noble Lord, Lord Cameron, said, these schedules seem to be a rather heavy-handed way of approaching the issue. He also came out with an interesting thesis that perhaps we were influenced by legislation passed at the time when we were conceived or born. I was trying to think what might have been on the statute book when I was born but I do not know. Perhaps we should all check as a result of what he has said.

The Norfolk Broads were referred to by my noble friend Lord Berkeley. They seem to be very much akin to a national park but they have the additional special requirement that they have to protect navigation. They have the roles of conserving wildlife, enhancing natural heritage, promoting opportunities for understanding and enjoyment of the area, and have regard to the economic and social interests of those who live and work there. Therefore, it seems that we are talking about organisations which broadly have the same functions and purposes, whether it be the Norfolk Broads or the national parks.

More uncertainty has been created when there is already uncertainty because of the difficult decisions on funding that have to be taken. I know that there is considerable concern in my local national park in Northumberland at present. Indeed, a letter has been issued for a claim for judicial review because of the lack of consultation and the feeling that this has not been a fair and transparent process. We are talking here of people who are not natural opponents of the Government but who feel seriously about their responsibilities and want to have the necessary resources to carry them out.

The government amendment makes clear that we are dealing only with national parks in England. I understand that, but I hope that the Government will discuss with the devolved authorities the way forward for national parks—not in any way to impinge on the devolution settlement; that is the last thing I would want given the recent vote in Wales. However, the national parks are a precious asset for all of us. There must be many people in England who treasure Snowdonia, just as there are many people in the Scottish Borders who treasure Northumberland. For those reasons, I hope that there will be proper discussion with the devolved Administrations.

In conclusion, the Government's reaction is extremely important. We need reassurance about the valuable role that those organisations play. Given their popularity in the country as a whole, the Government tamper with them at their peril.

[Lord Henley]

My Lords, I will speak to Amendment 70 and all the amendments that go with it, and obviously address the government amendments, Amendments 74A, 95A and 105ZA. I will not comment on what legislation was going through when I was born, as did the noble Lord, Lord Cameron of Dillington. The noble Baroness, Lady Quin, rather coyly refused to comment on what legislation might have been going through when she was born. Those are matters for all of us to think of in due course.

I underline and fully accept what the noble Lord, Lord Judd, said, about the importance of national parks and their iconic nature—the fact that they are national parks. As my noble friend Lord Deben said, they cover 9 per cent of the land area of England— or is it the UK? I forget which, but it is large. As my noble friend said—he did not use these words but I think that he would accept them—they should not be cast in stone. He did not want them to be protected in the way that some of the church lands were in the past until Henry VIII appeared. I am no Henry VIII on this occasion. I want full protection of the national parks and I want them to work as best they can. I hope that in dealing with the amendments I can assure the House that that is exactly what we are going about.

Currently, they are managed by bespoke public authorities. I make the point that they are bespoke and vary from authority to authority. They are not identical. They are constructed on local government lines, but those authorities have been doing an excellent job since they came into being, some as long ago as 1948, when the noble Lord, Lord Cameron, was conceived—or was it when he was born?—and for a long time since.

Just as they have been doing an excellent job, the local authorities, and the planning boards which preceded them—in some cases, until much later, thinking of the more recent national parks—also did a very good job. However, those authorities now face the challenge of ensuring that they can continue to deliver their core purposes in very different times: in what—dare I say it?—are rather straitened times. They seek to minimise the impact of the spending reductions on their front-line services and see how they can continue to improve what they can offer in some areas.

National park authorities have a long tradition of managing very small budgets, engaging with their local communities and making very good use of volunteers. That experience will serve them well in devising innovative approaches to delivering key services in future. The important point to get across—this is dealing with the points raised by the noble Lord, Lord Judd, particularly when he discussed the six questions that were put by the Government to the national parks authorities and others in that consultation—is what they do in the future. We are currently considering the responses to that consultation on their governance arrangements and honouring the commitment made in the coalition agreement. The consultation closed on 1 February, and we are committed to announcing the outcome of that by the end of March. I can give an assurance to the noble Lord, Lord Berkeley, that the Broads Authority was consulted, as were all the other authorities, about what was going to happen and what it thought would happen. The six questions were put to it, and it was made aware of what the Bill would allow Defra and it to do. It might be that the Broads Authority and some of the others do not feel that they were consulted enough. If that is the case, the door will still be open, and my honourable and right honourable friends will listen to what they have to say.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Cameron of Dillington]

My Lords, I support these amendments. When I spoke at various stages of the Flood and Water Management Bill, it was mainly about the importance of the integrity of catchment management plans and of the local knowledge and understanding of water management in each and every catchment. A crucial part of that knowledge and understanding can be found in the IDBs. There are more than 130 IDBs, covering nearly 1.3 million hectares of England and Wales, and I happen to know that whenever they were looked at by MAFF—and, I dare say, by Defra, although I am unaware of any analysis or report in the past 10 years—they have been shown to be exceptional value for money, because the work they do would cost the state millions of pounds more if they were not there.

The IDBs are managed largely by volunteers with professional, historical and local knowledge and expertise that is unequalled on their patch. They are really good examples of how the big society should work and remain a major delivery partner in flood management. While they continue to protect agricultural, commercial and domestic property, they are also reinventing themselves to protect habitats, SSSIs, and environmental issues such as lichen, insects, wildflowers and barn owls, to name but a few.

I accept that their purposes and procedures, organisation and membership should always be reviewed in the light of modern practice but the value, knowledge and local expertise they represent should not be undermined or wasted—at least, not on our watch. I also accept that their membership may need broadening in the light of new financial arrangements. I understand that that is beginning to happen and that there are already broader interests in the environment and the like, which should be represented in their membership. However, I worry a little about the Environment Agency being responsible for their amalgamations and boundary changes in “non-contentious cases”. Does that mean that the IDBs involved have to agree with the proposed changes? I would worry if the Environment Agency had the power to take over any IDB responsibilities without their consent because that would be a waste of local expertise and, probably, of money. It would be unlikely to lead to any greater efficiency. Can the Minister address the definition of “non-contentious cases”?

Finally—I repeat this every time I stand up on this Bill—while this Government may have indicated their immediate intention is not necessarily to undermine or dramatically alter the functions of IDBs, I always worry about the long-term issue of leaving them in Schedules 3 and 5 in case some future Government threaten those highly important bodies. Once again, it seems that the noble Lord, Lord Taylor, is moving slightly closer to sunset clauses in the Bill. I heartily endorse that he moves even closer.

[Baroness Quin]

My Lords, a number of important questions have been raised in this short debate and I am grateful for that. Indeed, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Maclennan, for moving the amendment in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Greaves, who I very much supported in initially tabling these amendments. Like the noble Lord, Lord Cameron, I also pay tribute to the work of the internal drainage boards. The more that I have read about them, the more valuable they seem. Certainly I have received some letters about them from members of the public, seeming to value the work that they do in particular localities. I was amazed to read somewhere that these have a long history, going back to 1252. However, I understand that the more immediate legislative base of the work of the organisations actually dates from the Land Drainage Act 1930.

The noble Lord, Lord Cameron, said that he understood that no revision of the organisations had taken place in the past 10 years. I had understood that in 2004 there was some revision of the rules and procedures of the internal drainage boards. Perhaps the Minister could confirm that and tell us whether or not that revision of rules and procedures was successful or, indeed, whether there is some aspect of them that the Government feel that they want to make further changes to. Again, like the noble Lord, Lord Maclennan, I am not really clear what the Government want to do by including these bodies in the Bill.

I endorse the comments that have been made that the bodies seem to be very flexible. They operate in ways that suit the different areas, and in that sense they are something of a success story—it is a case of local management responding to local situations, which seems to be in line with the Government’s thinking on localism. I also note, though, that the Government’s own paper explaining their attitude to the Public Bodies Bill says that one of the changes they want to make is to make the bodies more responsive to local needs and more reflective of local interests. My understanding is that they already operate in such a manner and involve local communities in the way that the Government seem to want them to. Perhaps the Government can explain that aspect of their policy.

The drainage boards play an important role in reducing flood risk, a tremendously important issue at present. As the noble Lord, Lord Cameron, mentioned, they also have an important role regarding the natural environment, even on such issues as vegetation clearance works, which they seem to do in a sensitive way. Indeed, when crises occur, many of them provide a 24-hour contact number and extended office hours. They seem to be organisations that work flexibly and well in all circumstances. One of the letters that I received mentioned the fact that the Parliamentary Under-Secretary for Natural Environment and Fisheries in another place said:

“From a personal point of view I see IDBs as a good example of what the Prime Minister wants to see happen around the big society. All the IDB members give their time, their local know-how and their skill, free of charge all for the benefit of wider society”.

Again, these are strong endorsements, so we need an explanation before Report of why exactly these bodies have been put into the Bill.

I echo the concerns of the noble Lord, Lord Cameron, about the Environment Agency making decisions about these bodies in the circumstances that seem to be outlined. The agency itself is mentioned in the Bill and indeed in this group of amendments. Given the late hour and the complexity of the agency’s operations, I cannot do anything other than skirt over its role, but again it would be good if the Government divulged some of their thinking about the future role of the Environment Agency. Have they had discussions with the agency about its role or any suggested changes that the Government want to make?

Is it the Government’s aim to move forward with the consent and the agreement of the agency and its staff? That is also an important point. The agency has staff who are worried that somehow or other their status or their independent stance might be penalised if it is not felt to be totally in accordance with government priorities. They want reassurance about their role, their independence and their status in future.

I shall not say anything more at this stage but I hope that the Minister will be able to give us some information, if not entirely in the course of this debate then in writing so that we have good information on which we can base our attitude when these matters come up again on Report.

[Lord Henley]

My Lords, I might have to spend a few minutes on this but I hope I can satisfy most of the points that have been raised by noble Lords. I am grateful to my noble friend Lord Maclennan for moving this amendment on behalf of his noble friend Lord Greaves.

As noble Lords will know, IDBs manage flood risk and the drainage of agricultural land. In doing so, they also seek to conserve and enhance the environment in those areas of special drainage need where they operate. They play an important role, which is recognised by their inclusion as flood risk management authorities in the Flood and Water Management Act 2010. Like my honourable friend Mr Benyon, I pay tribute to what the IDBs did in the manner that was cited by the noble Baroness, Lady Quin. She also made it clear that the Land Drainage Act 1991 sets out the IDBs’ functions and the arrangements under which they operate, but reminded us that those are based on considerably earlier legislation. She took us back to the 13th century. I do not know whether there was legislation at that stage but she is certainly right in saying that one can go back a long way.

The main issues that arise are restrictive arrangements on governance, limits on the functions of the IDBs and burdensome procedures for changing boundaries and other arrangements. In respect of governance, dealt with under Clause 3 and Schedule 3, the law currently means that, even where most of the funding is from local authorities, an authority can have no more than one member more than half the total membership of a board—the so-called bare majority. This weakens the incentives for efficiency, which would be present with a stronger relationship between sources of funding and levels of representation. I hope that the noble Baroness will accept that point. In addition, despite the wider environmental function of IDBs, there is no provision for specialist members to represent those functions, or other wider interests, on the boards. Experience has shown that specialists can add greatly to the effectiveness of boards.

In respect of the functions of IDBs, in terms of Clause 5 and Schedule 5, it is not proposed to transfer those functions to any other body—I give that assurance—or to take away any functions. However, simplification of some of the burdensome procedural requirements so that, for example, IDBs can formalise their rules or procedure with Environment Agency consent, rather than ministerial consent, requires modification of the functions of IDBs. In addition, as the Flood and Water Management Act 2010 imposes a sustainable development duty in relation to IDBs’ flood risk functions, and as their flood risk and drainage roles are hard to separate, it is important to align these duties to improve clarity and certainty. For example, where certain works have a bearing on soil carbon, this would be a relevant consideration whether the aim of the work was flood risk management or land drainage.

For the sake of flexibility and efficiency, we are also exploring the possibility of IDBs having the power to carry out other related water management functions in their areas. The Government will keep this under review and will propose a transfer of functions to the IDBs if and when that is appropriate. It is for these reasons that we have included IDBs in Schedule 5. This will mean a more flexible framework for IDBs, which will allow them to adapt to change and therefore put them on a stronger footing. I repeat the assurances that my honourable friend has given and his phrase about IDBs being part of the big society.

As I have explained, at present the procedure for IDB boundary changes, amalgamations and reconstitutions —that is, changes to board memberships and other matters relating to IDBs—is very lengthy and cumbersome, involving advertising and consideration of objections by the Environment Agency and Defra. We would like to simplify this process by giving the Environment Agency the power to approve these changes other than, for example, in the dispute cases. This is what the noble Lord, Lord Cameron, referred to. I make it clear to the noble Lord that cases described as “non-contentious” are those where there is no dispute. Therefore, in the non-disputed cases there would be no need to have ministerial involvement. I hope that that assurance will be sufficient to satisfy the noble Lord. The aim of that is to reduce the bureaucratic controls and to allow IDBs to be more responsive to change. For this reason the Environment Agency is also listed in Schedule 5.

There is also a lengthy procedure involving Defra and the Environment Agency in respect of varying maps that show the extent of watercourses deemed to be “main river”. The Environment Agency is responsible for those watercourses. Hence some changes can be significant but others relate simply to alterations in the course of a river. We propose to give the agency the power to make these changes in respect of uncontested, non-contentious changes. That again would reduce unnecessary administrative costs.

The noble Lord, Lord Maclennan, asked about the legislative timetable and whether there were other more appropriate Bills in which to tackle this issue. There is no guarantee that a water Bill will be brought forward. From my own experience over the years—no doubt this is the experience also of the noble Baroness, Lady Quin—I know that there is uncertainty about the legislative timetable and about obtaining the agreement of colleagues. The noble Baroness gives a wry grin but it is sometimes difficult to agree on relatively minor changes. Therefore, we think that it is prudent to provide for these relatively minor changes in the Bill rather than to delay them further. However, I give an assurance that the Bill requires consultation to take place before any order is made. I guarantee that that will take place.

Government Amendments 72A and 94A in the name of my noble friend Lord Taylor restrict the order-making power of government Ministers to IDBs that are wholly or mainly in England. This is a result of reaching agreement with the Welsh Assembly that it is more appropriate for Welsh Ministers to have this power for those IDBs which are wholly or mainly in Wales.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Cameron of Dillington]

My Lords, I wish to speak to the amendment on the Joint Nature Conservation Committee. I first declare an interest as a past member of the JNCC. I am sure that the role it performs could be done better. In my time there, there was a view—not perhaps mine, because I was not necessarily involved—that the staff seconded to the JNCC by the various constituent bodies were not always the best that could be found. I do not know whether that remains the case, but I do not dispute the possibility of potential reform within the JNCC.

However, the JNCC is an important body. Nature does not necessarily conform to man’s boundaries, whether administrative or national. Furthermore, there are bits in between the constituent parts of the United Kingdom, such as firths, seas and skies, which are in a sort of no-man’s land where the JNCC plays an important role. Nature conservation in the UK has to be managed, researched, protected and even enhanced on an international basis. This could not happen in the absence of the JNCC.

Just as the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, has done, I ask the Minister: what is the long-term intention here? I am sorry to be boring about this, but, once again, can we please have a sunset clause in case a future Government come up with a different answer to that question?

[Baroness Quin]

My Lords, I thank my noble friend Lord Hunt for moving or speaking to the amendments that highlight the situation of a number of important organisations listed in the Bill. It is useful to highlight these issues in Committee and then evaluate how to take the debate forward at Report.

Like the noble Lord, Lord Cameron, I refer first to the JNCC. It was good to hear the knowledge that he acquired as a former member of that organisation. My understanding is that the JNCC acts as an adviser to Her Majesty’s Government and the devolved Governments. I ask the Minister what discussion there has been with the devolved Governments about the structure of the committee, its work and what changes are envisaged. I stress, as did the noble Lord, Lord Cameron, that the committee does a lot of important work: it has an important European role; it carries out important work on biodiversity, which is a priority for the Government and for most Members of this House; and it disseminates a lot of information to ensure, for example, that details of EU policy decisions in this area are disseminated to conservation bodies throughout the country and to other key stakeholders. Therefore, it has a lot of important functions.

Am I right in understanding that the changes that the Government are proposing to the JNCC are rather minor? It would be useful to know that. According to the information provided by the Government, the aim is apparently to improve the cost-effectiveness of the committee and reduce the environmental costs of its operations. I do not know what assessment has been made of its environmental costs, so perhaps the Minister can give us further information about that.

My noble friend Lord Hunt also mentioned the Marine Management Organisation, and I shared his surprise that it should figure in the Bill. It is a new organisation and was set up very much with cross-party support, which was very welcome. In a recent debate that we had in Grand Committee on a statutory instrument that made a minor change to the work of the organisation, I know that the Minister gave a strong endorsement of the MMO’s work. Therefore, I reiterate the questions asked by my noble friend. Why is the organisation in the Bill, and what changes, if any, are envisaged to its operation?

In this group of amendments there is also reference to the Drinking Water Inspectorate. Again, this has an important role in providing information on research, regulations and water testing products and in providing independent reassurance that water supplies in England are safe and that drinking water is acceptable to consumers. That independent scrutiny of water company activities is very important and we want to be assured that it is not going to be in any way jeopardised. Having looked at the DWI’s website, I can see that it provides a lot of information to the public in its list of events and in its general climate of openness. Again, I hope that that will not be jeopardised in any future changes.

Finally, another vital organisation is Natural England, which also figures in these amendments. Some considerations similar to those that apply to the MMO are relevant here. Although not as new as the MMO, Natural England is a fairly recent organisation. It was set up in 2006 with, I understand, all-party support. It establishes and cares for England’s main wildlife and geological sites, nature reserves, SSSIs and so on. It is also important in designating areas of outstanding natural beauty and so forth. It is probably best known to Members of the House as the body responsible for administering the agri-environment schemes—environmental stewardship schemes and others—amounting to some £400 million a year. That is obviously a vital role which will need to continue in the future.

Can the Minister clarify in what areas the Government envisage Natural England charging fees for its activities? I understand that that has been mentioned. Perhaps the Government can also give us an indication of future funding changes relating to Natural England. Our view is that we do not want to undermine the effectiveness of what seems to us to be a very effective organisation. Again, therefore, as with the other bodies in this group of amendments, we would like some reassurances that will help us to decide how to examine these issues as we proceed towards Report.

[Lord Henley]

The noble Baroness suggested that what we are dealing with are rather minor changes. I can assure her that they are not rather minor but very minor. The amendments would remove these four Defra bodies from the Bill, which would be unfortunate as the very minor changes that we are proposing are not only modest but help to improve the efficiency of these bodies. They remove a financial burden from the taxpayer, which is something that we should all seek to do.

I shall deal with the four bodies in turn, starting with the Joint Nature Conservation Committee. As the noble Baroness says, it advises the Government and the devolved Administrations on behalf of United Kingdom conservation bodies on UK-wide and international nature conservation. Its core role is to co-ordinate biodiversity surveillance and information management across the United Kingdom in support of better policy implementation and decision-making to help to meet the UK’s EU and international obligations.

In consultation with the devolved Administrations, which jointly fund and sponsor the JNCC and the United Kingdom conservation bodies, the Government seek to ensure that it is operating as efficiently and as cost-effectively as possible. I wish to make it clear that the JNCC fully supports those aims and the committee has discussed a number of measures such as reducing the number of board and committee meetings and reducing the number of committee representatives. The committee has also discussed a proposal to amend its corporate status to allow it to operate as a conventional non-departmental public body, rather than through a company limited by guarantee, as at present. All those changes will enable the JNCC to streamline certain administrative procedures and to reduce its running costs. Some of these proposals—for example, reducing the number of committee representatives—would require changes to primary legislation. That could be the subject of an order made using powers in this Bill. That is why it is listed in Schedule 3.

Other bodies are listed in Schedule 4 in order to modify their charging powers. The reason is not to increase the funding of these bodies but to ensure that those who create the costs of carrying out functions bear that cost. At present, those costs are not fully recoverable and, as a result, the burden falls on taxpayers. I should like to set out the proposals in respect of each body. Starting with the Drinking Water Inspectorate, the Government propose to enable the DWI to implement a charging scheme to enable the inspectorate to recover the cost of much of its regulatory work undertaken on behalf of the water industry. At present the DWI is funded entirely by Defra and, therefore, its costs of operation fall to taxpayers. Allowing the inspectorate to charge the industry for its regulatory work will result in a saving to taxpayers of around £1.9 million a year. On the introduction of a charging scheme, water companies will be able to pass on the costs to consumers, which we reckon will increase the average annual water bill by some 15p, not a very large sum.

The MMO, as the noble Baroness rightly reminded us, is a very new body. It was created under the Marine and Coastal Access Act 2009. Many noble Lords, particularly the noble Lord, Lord Greaves, who sadly is not here today, will remember with much fondness the passage of the Bill through this House. There are charging provisions relating to marine licensing in that 2009 Act. I understand why the Committee might wonder why we need to modify those so soon after the Act was adopted. We are proposing the inclusion of the MMO for specific purposes which would avoid taxpayers subsidising marine licence applicants. The main purpose is to allow us to remedy a shortcoming in the 2009 Act, although I fail to understand why there should be a shortcoming in an Act passed by the previous Government. The noble Lord, Lord Hunt, will remember its passage. The shortcoming prevents the MMO from fully recovering the costs that it will incur in relation to marine licences, once the new marine licensing system comes into force in April this year. I stress that without that power there would be costs that would have to be met by taxpayers.

Natural England is also included in Schedule 4 to modify its charging powers. This is solely to remove an ambiguity under existing law. Natural England already has powers to make charges in relation to its licensing functions under a variety of enactments. These powers are all worded in a way which gives rise to doubts over their scope. For example, although it can create a charge for issuing licences, it is unclear whether the existing powers allow Natural England to make a charge where it receives an application for a licence which is subsequently withdrawn or refused. Natural England is therefore included in Schedule 4 so that the Secretary of State can amend and clarify existing legislation and thereby make the extent of the existing charging powers clearer.

Finally, I turn to the government amendment, Amendment 79A. As noble Lords will understand from debate on previous amendments, it restricts the order-making power of Ministers to the Drinking Water Inspectorate in England. Welsh Ministers will be given corresponding order-making powers for the DWI in Wales through the appropriate provisions in the Bill.

I hope that the Committee will be prepared to accept Amendment 79A and that the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, will feel able to withdraw his amendment and not press the others in the group.

Forestry Commission

Baroness Quin Excerpts

Thursday 3rd March 2011 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Quin]

My Lords, I begin by expressing my admiration to noble Lords all around the House for managing to make so many telling points within the rigorous confines of a two-minute deadline. I am fortunate in that I have slightly longer, but I none the less share the frustration that noble Lords feel in having to deal with such important issues in such a short time.

I congratulate my noble friend Lord Clark of Windermere very much on initiating this debate, and on his starring role in recent forestry campaigns, which have been so happily successful. My noble friend, through his previous work as chair of the Forestry Commission, and also throughout his long parliamentary career, has been an unmatched champion for our countryside, for the rural economies of our country, and for the natural environment.

As I was not able to be in the House on Monday when the Public Bodies Bill was debated, I take this opportunity to give my thanks to the Government for removing the forestry provisions from that legislation and to express my delight at the dramatic turnaround in their approach to their forestry policy. The Government’s original proposals, as we know, unleashed a tidal wave of public concern. Like others, I pay tribute to the various campaigns which immediately got under way. I recognise in particular the national petition organised by 38 Degrees, which was so astoundingly effective, but I recognise equally the local and regional campaigns up and down the country, which had such an important influence on Members of Parliament, and indeed on public representatives throughout our country. The campaigns attracted celebrity support as well, and support from people of different walks of life. My noble friend Lord Clark said that he was, in a way, astonished at the scale of the reaction, yet there were reminders during the campaigns of how long the history of public support for our forests is. Some looked back, for example, to the campaigns by Octavia Hill and John Stuart Mill in the 19th century to save Epping Forest.

Certainly, if this was the big society in action, it was very impressive, although ironically for the Government, who see the big society as their cherished idea, in this case it was the big society standing up to and opposing what the Government were doing. The public certainly showed that they were passionate about the future of our forests, and many noble Lords have expressed passion for our forests in the debates that we have had in this House. In considering the Public Bodies Bill and in the debate today, various forests around the country have been mentioned: the Forest of Dean, the forests in the Lake District, and the forests of Delamere and Cannock Chase, which my noble friend Lord Grantchester mentioned. I share that passion for my local forests and woods in the north-east of England—Chopwell woods, Hamsterley forest and, a bit to my surprise, Kielder, which is a very large forest, described by the Minister as containing serried ranks of conifers. I remember being dismayed in the past at some of the very large ugly plantations in areas of outstanding natural beauty.

Huge changes have occurred in forestry policy over the years, thanks in no small measure to the work done by my noble friend Lord Clark at the Forestry Commission and by the commitment of the previous Government to make forests an amenity for all our citizens, as well as being important in terms of timber production. That has been seen in Kielder, as elsewhere, with the many sites of special scientific interest and habitats for endangered ospreys and the red squirrel. I congratulate the noble Lord, Lord Gardiner of Kimble, on wearing his red squirrel tie. I do not know whether he has headscarves or other items that might be more suitable for women supporters of red squirrels, but certainly the cause of the red squirrel is one that is dear to the hearts of many of us in this House. It reminds us of one of the most important aspects of this debate which is the promotion of biodiversity. Indeed, that point has been made tellingly in some of the briefings sent to us by outside organisations, particularly the Royal Society for the Protection of Birds which speaks effectively on the importance of biodiversity. I commend the succinctness of the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Liverpool in saying that our watchwords should be accessibility, biodiversity and conservation. These are important watchwords when it comes to how to approach this debate.

I took the Minister to task at an earlier stage for his categorisation of forests and the categories of forest that Defra came up with in its original proposals. It is wrong to try to oversimplify whether forests are commercial, heritage, mixed, or whatever. I believe strongly that each forest has to be looked at on its own merits and that we have to look at them not only for what they mean for timber production but for nature conservation and wildlife, public access and amenities, and for what they contribute to the rural and regional economies in terms of tourism, timber production and related issues. All forests should be considered in that way and I hope that the Government will now accept that as the way forward.

While I disagreed with Ministers’ oversimplification of forest categories, I agreed with the point that he and his colleague, the noble Lord, Lord Taylor of Holbeach, made in our debate on the Public Bodies Bill. It is a challenge to reconcile the valid different interests which seek to use our forests, whether ramblers, mentioned by the noble Baroness, Lady Benjamin, sports interests, wildlife interests, general tourism, and so on. They all need to be reconciled within our overall international environmental commitments.

A number of issues were raised to which I hope the Minister will respond. My noble friend Lord Clark mentioned the issue of the 15 per cent and I hope that the Minister will respond to that. On Monday, concern was expressed that repeated sales at 15 per cent could result in the serious whittling away of the public forest estate. In response the Minister mentioned that a substantial public forestry estate would be retained. In order to reassure people, particularly given the extent of public concern, a definition of what constitutes substantial will need to be given, so I hope that the Minister will respond to that.

Questions have been asked about the composition of the panel and how it will operate. I echo those concerns that it should operate in public and be as inclusive as possible. That has to be the message that results and one of the lessons learnt from the experience of the past two months. My noble friend Lady Royall of Blaisdon mentioned concern about jobs. We are concerned about cuts in expenditure in terms of managing our forests in all our interests.

I have to conclude, and time is frustratingly short, but we owe it to the public who have shown such strong feelings on this matter to come back to these issues many times and to be vigilant in the months ahead. In the mean time I look forward to the Minister’s reply and his answer to the points that have been made so tellingly today.

Clothing Industry: Ethical and Sustainable Fashion

Baroness Quin Excerpts

Thursday 3rd March 2011 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Quin]

I, too, congratulate the noble Baroness, Lady Young of Hornsey, on initiating this debate, and on speaking to it in such a knowledgeable and informative way. I know that she has had a long involvement with this issue through the London College and elsewhere, and has also raised these issues on previous occasions in this House. Indeed, as my noble friend Lady McIntosh reminded us, she has also been involved in raising the issue in both Houses through the establishment of the all-party group, to which I wish much success.

The noble Baroness raised a wide number of issues, and the debate has been widened even further by subsequent contributions to look at the fashion and clothing industry more generally, as did my noble friends Lord Sugar and Lady Rendell. The noble Lord, Lord Addington, spoke on the history of the industry, which, as he reminded us, has been very important in the past and from which lessons had to be learnt. Indeed, we had some literary allusions from my noble friend Lady McIntosh. The debate has been wide-ranging and there are many points to which the Minister will wish to respond.

When I first saw the title of the debate I was somewhat surprised that it was considered a Defra responsibility, although I understand why it is, for the purposes of this debate. It very much arises from the Defra sustainable clothing action plan launched three to four years ago under the previous Government. In that respect, I pay tribute to my noble friend and colleague Lord Hunt of Kings Heath who took a keen interest in these issues when he was a Minister. He helped launch the initiative at the London College, where his catwalk performance was described by the noble Baroness, Lady Young of Hornsey, as being very much appreciated. That conveys an interesting spectacle to most of us who had not thought of my noble friend as being a catwalk performer. None the less, I know that he was very committed to the action plan within Defra and to the initiatives taken by the noble Baroness. I know that he would like me to pay tribute to the staff in Defra who are working on the road map and who I know he felt were very enthusiastic about the work that they were doing.

Although I recognise the valuable role that Defra can play in this issue, this is a classic case of co-ordination being necessary across various government departments. Many of the issues raised today relate to government departments other than Defra, such as the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills. The Department for International Development is relevant in terms of some of the important issues in development, as are departments dealing with education and training, and universities—mentioned by the noble Lord, Lord Addington—and so is the Treasury when it comes to tax incentives or fiscal measures. What co-ordinating mechanisms exist at present for looking at the ethical clothing and fashion industry? Is there a committee that has representation from the appropriate departments? How would it support Defra in taking forward the clothing action plan and the initiatives that have already been taken?

Have there been any changes to the road map since the previous Government published their progress report in February 2010? I was trying to find out about it from the Defra website and ran out of time before the debate, but I was a little puzzled that there is still reference to the old Defra website. Somehow the new and old websites have not been consolidated into one departmental statement even though we are 10 months on from the election and the change of government. It is a bit confusing for those seeking information about this issue.

When she referred to these issues previously, the noble Baroness, Lady Young, talked about the role of small businesses in ethical fashion and clothing. She was concerned at the time, a couple of years ago, about the economic climate adversely affecting small businesses in particular. What contact has the department had with small businesses in the sector to confront some of the challenges that they face in what is even perhaps a more difficult economic situation?

The noble Baroness also mentioned procurement, a point that was echoed by one or two other speakers. I would be interested to know whether, with regard to Defra, the Government were considering widening the applicability of government buying standards to include the NHS, perhaps, or other parts of government that are not currently included. Is consideration being given to this?

The noble Baroness also raised the issue of what we have been calling the supermarket ombudsman—now called adjudicator. The main inspiration behind this was the perceived weakness of farmers and agricultural producers in negotiating with supermarkets. It was an interesting point as to whether there was a role for the adjudicator in the textile and clothing industry, particularly given that so many supermarkets these days are quite substantial sellers of clothing. Again, I would be interested in the Government’s reaction to that.

A number of issues raised would probably come more within the area of responsibility of the Foreign Office or DfID than Defra. None the less, they are important to raise during the debate. The noble Baroness referred to the alarming reports about the cotton industry and the employment of very young people in Uzbekistan. I read those reports and found them very troubling indeed, and wondered what representations might have been made about this, or if any positive progress has been made. This is of interest not only to Members of this House and to the public but to companies. I accept the point made by my noble friend Lord Sugar that companies these days are concerned about the standards of production of the goods that they are dealing with and the conditions in which people in those producing industries are employed. That is also reflected by the fact that quite a large number of retailers were willing to sign up to the clothing action plan. We hope that that number can increase in future. Those issues are important, and I hope that the Government will be able to respond.

If we can make further progress on this issue, this can be a win for the environment and for responsible producers and manufacturers as well as for trade and social justice. They are very important issues and, once again, I thank the noble Baroness very warmly for raising them in this House today.

Trees: Sudden Oak Death

Baroness Quin Excerpts

Thursday 10th February 2011 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Quin]

My Lords, it is clear that the Forestry Commission is well aware of the risks associated with not treating or responding to this disease. However, as revealed by the commission in a recent memo to staff, it is equally clear that the Government have not given it funding to deal with it. To use its words:

“There is no capacity to deal with costs of disease or other calamity”.

Why have the Government not allocated money to the Forestry Commission to deal with this very real threat, which the noble Lord has outlined? Furthermore, how do they expect voluntary groups to be able to fund these crucial activities on top of buying forests at market rates?

[Lord Henley]

The noble Baroness is being somewhat misleading. I have made it very clear that we have a £25 million programme over five years to identify ways of dealing with this disease. That is the important matter. As with all plant diseases, it is then a matter for the individual owners, whether they be the Forestry Commission or others, to take appropriate action to fell that timber and sell it on the open market because it still has some value, even if that is depressed. Compensation for felling trees has never been paid, under either this Government or previous Administrations, when a plant disease of this sort occurs, and we will continue with that process. However, we think that the Forestry Commission is perfectly adequately funded to do this. Further, parts of FERA—the plant health division—are actively recruiting extra staff, particularly to identify diseases at airports and other locations, to try to prevent any more diseases of this sort coming into the country.

Japan: Whaling

Baroness Quin Excerpts

Wednesday 2nd February 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Henley]

My Lords, we have no direct evidence of vote buying or corruption, although I have to say that some of the voting at last year's IWC meeting in Agadir seemed somewhat odd and possibly resembles the Eurovision Song Contest. Having said that, we will continue to press our case at this year's IWC, and I hope that we will achieve similar success to what we achieved last year at Agadir.

[Baroness Quin]

My Lords, I welcome the fact that despite the change of government, UK policy on whaling seems to have emerged unscathed and unchanged. Given that the UK will be hosting the next IWC meeting, the importance of preparing for this meeting is even more pressing. From his contacts so far, how does the Minister assess the prospects for reform of the IWC at that meeting, and how does he assess the likelihood of getting together the alliance that we need to promote the policies that the UK Government favour?

[Lord Henley]

My Lords, first, I thank the noble Baroness for her comments. We will certainly continue with the policy on which Her Majesty's Governments—of all parties—have concluded for a number of years. We will continue to work with the IWC and hope to achieve success there. The important thing is that we also work within the EU to ensure that the EU speaks with a united voice on these matters. I offer praise to my honourable friend Mr Benyon, who last year at Agadir got the EU to speak as one bloc on the matter. It is very important that the EU continues to do that at St Helier this summer.

Forestry Commission

Baroness Quin Excerpts

Wednesday 2nd February 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Henley]

My Lords, I remember the Bill in 1981. Although I cannot remember specific parts of it, I am aware of the concerns relating to the Forest of Dean. I know that the Leader of the Opposition also has concerns about this. We will look at the amendments from the right reverend Prelate’s colleague when we get to that stage—if we ever do—in the Public Bodies Bill, and we will then respond in the appropriate manner.

[Baroness Quin]

My Lords, how does the Minister justify the classification of forests in the consultation document and how was it decided? While I hope we all agree on the importance of the Forest of Dean and the New Forest, describing a forest such as Kielder simply as “commercial” flies in the face of the fact that it contains 31 areas of special scientific interest, is home to most of England’s remaining red squirrels and has become increasingly important in recent years for tourism and recreation. How does the Minister justify this?

[Lord Henley]

As the noble Baroness will be aware, it is commercial woodland on an area that used to be open moorland. She and I know that part of the country very well. It is now covered in what people refer to as serried ranks of conifers and should be treated as commercial woodland. The important point is that the manner by which we propose to realise assets from it will mean that we can protect various areas. The sales conducted by the previous Government of some 25,000 acres were made without any protection whatever.

Birds: Farmland Populations

Baroness Quin Excerpts

Tuesday 18th January 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Henley]

My Lords, I did not say that it was an aim of Defra: I said that control of predators where possible was one matter among many that should be addressed by all those involved in farming and the management of land. That would help to increase the diversity around and improve the habitat for the birds that we are so concerned about.

[Baroness Quin]

My Lords, given the difficulty in halting the decline of farmland birds, despite the huge efforts of volunteers and despite the environmental schemes that we have, will the department bring together all the interested parties to try to work out an effective way forward? Will the Minister also give a firm commitment to continue funding the environmental schemes such as the Higher Level Scheme, which seem to have been more effective in tackling this problem than others?

[Lord Henley]

My Lords, I would have thought that what we do for the Campaign for the Farmed Environment is exactly what the noble Baroness is talking about in terms of the leadership that she would like from Defra. We will continue to support its work and support agri-environment schemes because we think that they are one way forward to help improve biodiversity for birds. Obviously, they take a very long time before they have any effect on the decline in birds which, as my noble friend made clear, has been going on some 40 years.