Occupational Pension Schemes (Collective Money Purchase Schemes) Regulations 2022

Baroness Sherlock Excerpts

Wednesday 23rd February 2022 Grand Committee

Obviously, the regulator has to comply with the law and protect members’ interests, but if it adopts a bureaucratic, nitpicking approach to how these regulations and requirements are met, we will have very slow progress on what is an important and useful development as a type of pension provision. We have to emphasise this to, and work with, the Pensions Regulator to ensure that it adopts a practical approach and enables other employers to think, “This isn’t going to be a nightmare; we can actually do this”.

[Baroness Sherlock (Lab)]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for her introduction to these regulations and all noble Lords for their contributions. As some noble Lords will remember, we spent a long time debating the Pension Schemes Act in this House. We asked lots and lots of questions about the establishment of CDC pension schemes. When we asked questions of the Minister, at least some of the time the answer came back: “The detail will be in the regulations”. Now here we are; here are the regulations and they will implement the authorisation and supervisory regime for CDC schemes. It is not surprising that so many questions have come from my noble friend Lady Drake and other noble Lords, and I am afraid I have more to add to the list. I very much hope the Minister can answer them, because this is our last chance before the scheme is created and it is incredibly important.

Here are my questions, starting with the future of CDC schemes. In his foreword to the consultation document in 2019, the Pensions Minister, Guy Opperman, said:

“There were encouraging signs of a growing interest in CDC amongst employers and commercial providers, outside of the Royal Mail and CWU. I expect this will increase further”.


It is three years down the road, and still only Royal Mail has committed to establishing a scheme. The Government admit that future take-up is still unknown.

In her contribution, my noble friend Lady Drake highlighted some of the concerns that flow from devising the details of a scheme with only one employer in mind. The future will not be the same, of course. The noble Baroness, Lady Janke, and my noble friend Lord Davies of Brixton asked what happens if other employers want to join in future. It is my understanding that we would need additional legislation if we got developments such as unconnected multi-employer schemes or commercial master trusts operating CDC schemes. The Minister can confirm that.

In such scenarios, different risks would need to be considered. One would expect the regulations and the code of practice provisions on things such as financial sustainability and trustee discretion to be more robust. For example, I would expect to see a definite requirement to ring-fence reserves to meet the costs of a triggering event or implement a continuity option; or, for example, a strengthening of trustee discretion over things such as opening new sections or the appointment of the chair of trustees. Can the Minister confirm that these regulations and the draft code of practice under consultation will not be considered fit for purpose for unconnected multi-employer and commercial master trust schemes?

The Government have acknowledged that there is considerable uncertainty as to the impact of the CDC proposal. I take the point made by my noble friend Lord Davies that, when one starts something, of course one will never fully know until it is out there. However, it is probably because of that uncertainty that the regulations and the draft code are long and complicated —because they are trying to cover for a range of circumstances. In turn, I suspect that that will mean that the CDC scheme rules are likely to be long and require a high level of understanding by trustees and their advisers. That complexity adds to the importance of clear member communications, and good systems and processes.

However, because of the way in which the rules are framed—my noble friend Lord Davies is right—a lot of responsibility will have to be borne by the regulator on some complex technical issues. If CDC schemes grow in number, as is hoped, how will the regulator, given its increasingly complex pensions remit generally, build and maintain the necessary capacity and capability to authorise and supervise such schemes? This is highly technical stuff but with a lot at stake. How is the regulator going to be able to manage it?

Next, I want to turn to the fit and proper person test for trustees. These regulations, in Regulation 8 and Schedule 1, together with the code of practice, set tough fit and proper person requirements for assessing whether a person can be a trustee of a CDC scheme, especially around skills, knowledge and experience. I am clear about the importance of ensuring that members’ interests are protected by an informed, knowledgeable and balanced team of trustees. However, the detail in the draft code leads me to ask a couple of questions. Is the Minister at all worried that the bar is perhaps set too high for committed and conscientious member-nominated trustees to meet? Is it perhaps the policy intention to squeeze out member-nominated trustees from single or connected employer CDC schemes? Is it perhaps the intention to have CDC schemes run only by professional trustees?

I realise that the scheme rules are complicated but, if schemes end up relying increasingly on professional trustees, that potentially brings a different risk: groupthink. Corporate trustees are more likely to come from the industry and may be more concerned with compliance than looking beyond it to see emerging risks. Further, a single employer or connected employer CDC scheme is established under an irrevocable trust by an employer. Could the terms of such a trust fetter the discretion of the trustees to a point and remove the chair of trustees?

Then there is the key issue of financial sustainability, about which my noble friend Lady Drake asked some crucial questions to which the Committee needs clear answers today. I am going to go back a little in history and remind the Minister of a couple of exchanges during the passage of the Bill. I must say, I was a lot more articulate in my head at the time than I was when I read it in Hansard afterwards; it is amazing how much less impressive it is when one reads it later, but bear with me. In Committee, I put this to the Minister:

“I think I understood her to say that the regulator would not approve a scheme unless the sustainability criteria had been met and that they could be met only if an adequate amount of money was placed in, for example, escrow. Is she saying that a scheme would be approved only if the regulator was satisfied that enough money had been provided up front by the sponsoring employer to fund the continuity options in the event of a triggering event?”


She replied:

“The answer to the question asked by the noble Baroness, Lady Sherlock, is yes, the money would be in an escrow account if needed.”


I pressed her further and asked:

“So could it never be the case that in the event of a triggering event, such as a wind-up, an employer pulling out or an employer downsizing, money would have to come from members’ contributions to fund the continuity option?”


The Minister’s answer was clear. She said:

“The answer to that question is no, it should not be.”—[Official Report, 24/2/20; col. GC 18.]


How can we be assured of that?

My noble friend Lady Drake had an exchange with the Minister on the same issue on Report. I hope that the Committee will bear with me if I quote again briefly. The Minister said:

“For the financial sustainability requirement at Clause 14 to be met, the trustees must provide evidence that they can access sufficient financial resources to cover the costs associated with setting up and running the scheme, as well as those associated with dealing with triggering events. If the regulator is not satisfied about the security of these resources and that they can be accessed as needed, the requirement will not be met and the scheme will not be authorised. It may well be that, in the early days of a CDC scheme, initial funding comes from the employer, but our approach does not just rely on employer-provided financial support; it enables trustees to draw on other options, including funds held in escrow, insurance policies or contingent assets. These should be available to cover any costs arising from a triggering event.”—[Official Report, 30/6/20; cols. 604.]


That raises a key question: how can the Minister assure the Committee that there will always be enough money available to meet the cost of a triggering event and implement the continuity strategy without recourse to members’ funds, as she promised on Report? Despite all our pressure, the Government chose not to require the reserves to be more obviously ring-fenced, as in a master trust. As my noble friend Lady Drake has pointed out, the requirements in the regulations and the draft code are pretty soft and unspecific. I look forward to hearing the Minister’s answer to her question as to whether there will be hard triggers—such as ratios—when we come to make those assessments.

I have gone on quite a bit but I think this is incredibly important. A lot of people will read this record—more than the number in this Room—because huge amounts of money will be at stake. If the Minister is asking the House in due course to pass these regulations, it is really important that we get some concrete reassurances on the safety of those members’ assets.

Finally on this issue, can the Minister assure the Committee that, when moves are made to extend the CDC authorisation to unconnected multi-employer schemes or commercial master trusts operating CDC schemes, the financial sustainability requirements will be more robust, given the nature of the risks and the increased scale that would bring?

The Pension Schemes Act 2021 created a whole new kind of pension scheme. That does not come along very often. These regulations are the only chance that the House of Lords will have to gain clarity on how those schemes will operate and how members’ assets will be protected. I therefore really hope that the Minister has come armed with some detailed answers. I look forward to her reply.

[Baroness Stedman-Scott (Con)]

My Lords, I thank all noble Lords for their helpful contributions to this debate. Before the noble Baroness, Lady Sherlock, raised it, memories came flooding back of our discussions on the Bill, which were lengthy and in depth.

I start by raising the points made by all noble Lords; I will try to answer at the level and detail for which the challenge has been set down. The noble Baronesses, Lady Janke and Lady Sherlock, asked how we will ensure that the CDC scheme has sufficient financial resources to cover the cost of operating the scheme if things go wrong. As part of the financial sustainability and continuity strategy authorisation criteria, the scheme must show how members will be protected against impacts, including costs, if a triggering event occurs, and must satisfy the regulator that there are sufficient protections. The financial sustainability requirements include demonstrating that there are sufficient financial resources to cover the cost of establishing and operating the scheme as well as costs arising from addressing a triggering event. This must be available to be used as and when needed.

If the regulator is not satisfied that the criteria are met, it must not authorise the scheme. The scheme will also need to satisfy the regulator on an ongoing basis that it continues to meet the authorisation criteria; for example, if the costs associated with addressing a triggering event change, the scheme must be able to show that it has sufficient resources to cover this. The regulator can require information relevant to the authorisation criteria to be included in a supervisory return. It is a significant event if the scheme is unable or unlikely to be able to meet the cost of a triggering event occurring.

Again, the noble Baronesses, Lady Janke and Lady Sherlock, raised the appointment of trustees and asked how we will ensure diversity on the board of the trustees. Our primary focus is on ensuring that trustees in all occupational pension schemes meet the standards of honesty, integrity and knowledge appropriate to their role. The regulator’s draft code of practice, published in January, sets out that trustee boards should have policies on diversity and inclusion, including objective selection criteria, and should demonstrate that they have the ability to capture, process and monitor data on diversity and inclusion. This would need to be demonstrated to the regulator for it to be satisfied both that the scheme satisfies the authorisation criterion and that the scheme’s systems and processes are sufficient to ensure that it is run effectively. The regulator will continue to supervise trustee action in this area and has established a working group to look at data, research, best practice, practical tools and employer engagement. We will look at the outcomes from the working group and consider what measures are needed.

--- Later in debate ---

The noble Baroness also asked whether the bar is set too high for committed and conscientious member-nominated trustees to meet. I believe I have answered this on the point about diversity and making sure that people have integrity.

[Baroness Sherlock (Lab)]

I apologise, I was not clear enough. My question is not about diversity in the sense that it is mostly understood; I was specifically asking whether the requirements had been framed in such a way as to be too difficult for member-nominated trustees to meet, with the effect that they would be driven out in favour of corporate trustees, which would lead to us not having a diversity of views. I was not referring to the other, more traditional, understanding of diversity.

[Baroness Stedman-Scott (Con)]

The point is very well made. We will have to work with member trustees to make sure that they are trained and that they understand the requirements prior to taking on responsibilities. I will consult my colleagues and answer in more depth in writing.

The noble Baroness, Lady Sherlock, asked whether the policy intention is to squeeze out member-nominated trustees from single or connected employer CDC schemes. The answer is no. She also asked whether the intention is to have CDC schemes run wholly by professional trustees. Again, the answer is no. She also asked a further question: “A single employer or connected employer CDC scheme is established under an irrevocable trust by an employer. Could the terms of such a trust fetter the discretion of the trustees to appoint and remove the chair of trustees?” I am advised that this is not the case and that there is no change from other schemes.

The noble Baroness also asked whether I can assure noble Lords that there will always be enough money available to meet the cost of a triggering event. As part of the financial sustainability and continuity strategy authorisation criteria, the scheme must show how members will be protected against impacts, including cost, if a triggering event occurs and satisfy the regulator that there are sufficient protections. The financial sustainability requirements include demonstrating that there are sufficient financial resources to cover the cost of establishing and operating the scheme, as well as costs arising from addressing a triggering event. They must be available to be used as and when needed. If the regulator is not satisfied that the criteria are met, it must not authorise the scheme.

The scheme will also need to satisfy the regulator on an ongoing basis that it continues to meet the authorisation criteria. For example, if the costs associated with addressing a triggering event change, the scheme must be able to show that it has sufficient resources to cover them. The regulator can require information relevant to the authorisation criteria to be included in a supervisory return. It is a significant event if the scheme is unable or unlikely to be able to meet the cost of a triggering event.

The noble Baroness asked about member-nominated trust rules applying to CDC schemes. Generally, trustees are required to ensure that arrangements are in place and implemented that provide for at least one-third of trustees or at least one-third of directors at the trustee company to be member-nominated.

The noble Baroness, Lady Sherlock, asked would— I apologise, I am struggling to read this piece of paper. I will write to the noble Baroness and place a copy in the Library so all noble Lords understand.