Deregulation Bill

Baroness Smith of Basildon Excerpts

Tuesday 18th November 2014 Grand Committee

[Lord Skelmersdale (Con)]

My Lords, I have been prompted to rise to my feet on Amendment 84, to which the Minister has just referred. I will ask a very simple question: are there no regulatory supplies from Northern Ireland, given that Amendment 84 refers to,

“any supplies that involve despatch of the substance to Northern Ireland or export of it from the United Kingdom”?

Of course, Northern Ireland is included in the United Kingdom, so I wonder if the Minister could, at some point in this debate, answer my question.

[Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab)]

My Lords, I had not intended to speak on this; I think the Minister might have moved “clause stand part” in error at the end of his comments, because my next amendment is a clause stand part debate. On the Northern Ireland question, my understanding is that Northern Ireland is part of UK, so I was rather surprised that the direction was to Northern Ireland and from the UK. That is a similar point to the one made by the noble Lord, so was it just an error in the drafting of the legislation?

[Lord Wallace of Saltaire]

My Lords, Northern Ireland has separate legislation that controls sales of poisons and will implement separate legislation that controls sales of explosives precursors and their exports. The reasons for this are entirely clear and that is why this is concerned with Great Britain.

[Baroness Smith of Basildon]

Then the term “UK” might perhaps be incorrect in terms of drafting.

[Lord Wallace of Saltaire]

The UK is, of course, an integrated market, so it is difficult to say, “exports from Great Britain”. That is the reason why we vary between Great Britain and the UK in different references.

--- Later in debate ---

Debate on whether Schedule 18, as amended, should be agreed.

[Baroness Smith of Basildon]

My Lords, I am grateful for the Minister’s brief introduction to this debate, which he may want to repeat. The reason for tabling a stand part debate is not that we are necessarily opposed to the schedule, but a number of questions arise on which it would be helpful to have clarification. I raised this issue last week when we discussed the clauses on alcohol and the sale of liqueur chocolates to children. I find it difficult when asked to consider schedules to Bills—or any legislation—when there has been a government consultation but we do not have the responses to it. All that is available is the consultation document, the impact assessment and the government response to the consultation, not the consultation responses themselves.

I understand that in some cases there may be reasons of confidentiality, but the consultation document refers to personal information being kept confidential. That is of course appropriate, but I found it difficult to analyse and assess the Government’s proposals. It would have been very helpful to know what some of the experts and petitioners thought and what were the consultation responses. I shall come to a couple of reasons why.

The first issue is that of home use. The impact assessment says that known uses of Part 1 poisons for the home are rodent control and metal extraction. I have worked hard on this, but I do not know what metal extraction in the home is. I should be grateful if the Minister could enlighten me. I can think of other uses for small amounts of poison in the home, but metal extraction has got the better of me.

The list of consultees in the Government’s response to the consultation is interesting. Some clearly involve domestic uses, such as the British Tropical Fish Club, which apparently is different to the Tropical Fish Club. We have the Model Power Boat Association, the Pool and Water Treatment Advisory Group and the Ornamental Aquatic Fish Trade Association. It is more understandable why they would use Part 1 poisons in the home—albeit, I would think, in small quantities—but the issue of metal extraction has got me beat, so any advice would be gratefully received.

The Government’s charts in their summary of responses were helpful. Under questions for home users of Part 1 and Part 2 poisons, less than half of those who currently use such poisons would continue to do so. Perhaps the Government are seeking to reduce the number of poisons on the Part 1 and Part 2 list in the home, but I do not think that that was listed as an objective of the legislation. That is where the consultation responses would have been useful. Two of the questions in the consultation are: what do you use Part 1 poisons for and what you use Part 2 poisons for? Not being a scientist, not knowing what the chemicals are for, I would find that very useful.

The consultation also asked whether alternatives could be used and what they are. In assessing whether it is justified to say that more than half the people would not continue to use those poisons, would it not be helpful to know—and to have it in the summary or published in the consultation—how many of those people are likely to use alternatives to what is available now? As it stands, we may be preventing people who have ornamental fish or tropical fish tanks at home enjoying their hobby, or their sport with model boats and so on. I do not know because we do not have that information. If the Minister can address the issue of the consultation and the points that I have raised about the alternatives available, I would find that quite helpful.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Wallace of Saltaire]

My Lords, I thank the noble Baroness for that very detailed and well prepared set of questions. I have to agree with her that in a sense this is a much less deregulatory measure than many of the others in the Bill. It is a revision of regulations more than deregulation. Indeed, in terms of safety, these proposals are designed to strengthen controls over those selling and purchasing dangerous poisons and explosives precursors. We are continuing a long trend of tightening government regulation of poisons and, increasingly, of explosives precursors.

A hundred years ago, a good many arsenic compounds were available for purchase and they were, on occasion, used for nefarious purposes as well. Over the last 40 years, the European Union has increased regulation and, in some cases, has banned a number of poisonous substances for use not only in the home but in gardens and allotments. Here, we are in part implementing those regulations. We are also concerned, as the noble Baroness will understand, with the use of substances which had not been misused as explosives precursors in the past but which are now widely recommended on the internet for those who wish to make explosives for nefarious purposes—hydrogen peroxide and others. I am referring to substances which, when purchased in large quantities, can be mixed into what then becomes explosives. There have been one or two cases of people being accused of terrorist offences who had managed to purchase large quantities of the same substances that hairdressers, for example, purchase in small quantities.

I note in the extensive list that I was given of the various different substances that there are a number of metallic substances. Their main home uses are listed as metal cleaning, etching, electroplating, painting and soldering. I am told that there are those who even use metal substances and metal complexes at home for extracting the gold from their old mobile phones. This is a delicate issue. Members of the Committee may not do this, but others may wish to do all sorts of things at home. Happily, my children did not get into chemistry particularly heavily. On the question of the Poisons Board’s preferred options, I am told that the Poisons Board accepted our policy approach and objectives in its final note to the Minister for Security and Immigration.

The noble Baroness has seen a summary of recommendations and I am happy to talk further to her about what extra things she would like to know about the replies to the consultation.

[Baroness Smith of Basildon]

It was not a summary of recommendations, but a summary of the consultation responses, and I identified one or two that were not included in the summary but would have been very helpful in considering this clause.

[Lord Wallace of Saltaire]

My understanding is that Appendix A of the report on the consultation had a summary of consultation responses. I have now been deluged with notes that I will attempt to absorb.

The Department of Health was a statutory consultee as part of the Poisons Board and was consulted on the draft legislation regarding any consequential amendments. The Home Office ran an open research call to find research into alternative substances for Part 1 poisons and licensed explosives precursors. Research proposals are currently being evaluated. The Home Office remains the primary enforcement body, although a range of others, including the police, come into play at certain points.

In some ways I rather wish my wife were here. She is much more experienced in poisons for household and garden use. She has strong views about some aspects of EU regulations because a number of poisonous substances, in safe hands, are very useful to use in the home and garden. However, policy in the United Kingdom and in other countries has been moving in the direction of tightening up controls on these because of what can happen in unskilled hands and how desirable it may therefore be to tighten control of them.

On the question of how much a licence would cost, a new licence application costs £39.50 at the moment for a maximum three-year period. Any amendments to current licences are free of charge to encourage compliance with conditions to notify changes in circumstances. Replacements of lost or stolen licenses cost £25. The Home Office has kept costs to a minimum by using existing IT systems as far as possible. A similar background to the checking process for firearms licensing is being followed up, with some differences. No home inspections or face-to-face interviews will be conducted.

Firearms licensing is governed by a different policy and we are looking to full cost recovery in this area, but I will write to the noble Baroness about the comparisons that she has been making with the licensing of firearms. I understand the point that she is making.

[Baroness Smith of Basildon]

I appreciate that because I have had different responses from different Ministers on the issue. Before the Minister moves on, I asked about the cost of new licences. I am not sure whether that was the figure he gave me. If it was, I thank him. I was not 100% clear about whether it was the new licence for home use that he referred to. Can he clarify that he was saying that the fire service was not consulted? Will he confirm that he will publish the consultation?

[Lord Wallace of Saltaire]

I do not have an answer on the fire service and will have to come back to the noble Baroness on that. The costs I was quoting are for new licence applications. I hope that that answers the majority of the questions raised by the noble Baroness, and I am happy to talk further or correspond if necessary on any other questions that I have not followed up. I thank her for the detailed effort she has made to ensure that we have got it right. It is an important area, although I have to say that when I looked at the extremely long list of the various substances that will now be controlled differently, I did not understand what a good many of them were or what their uses are. This is unavoidably a rather specialised field.

There is a regulation-making power in the schedule to vary, add or remove a substance or limit its concentration. After all, chemical substances are changing in terms of how they may be used, and our ability to combine chemicals for various purposes is also changing, so a degree of flexibility is highly desirable.

I have now been told that we have consulted the fire service, particularly on home storage, and that it supports the proposals.

[Baroness Smith of Basildon]

I am grateful for that, but I am puzzled why, in the list of consultees, the two I asked about were not included, although the Minister has been able to reassure me. It would be helpful to have a comprehensive list of consultees. I have one final point. I asked about the publication of the consultation responses—I made that same point in last week’s debate. Can he confirm that the Government, subject to the normal procedures of ensuring confidentiality of those who have responded, will publish the full consultation responses on the two consultations—poisons and explosives?

[Lord Wallace of Saltaire]

That is entirely understood. I will do my best on that, and will write to the noble Baroness with the assurances that she is asking for.