Horizon: Compensation and Convictions

Baroness Williams of Trafford Excerpts

Wednesday 10th January 2024 Lords Chamber

[Lord Palmer of Childs Hill (LD)]

My Lords—

[The Deputy Speaker (Baroness Williams of Trafford) (Con)]

My Lords, it is the turn of the Liberal Democrat Benches.

[Lord Palmer of Childs Hill (LD)]

My Lords, following on from what the Minister said, could he explain the role of the audit committees, at any level, and the National Audit Office? Where were they in this scandal? There are audit committees and they had a role to play. The elementary precaution used by all firms of accountants is that, when a new system is put in place, you run a parallel system for a few months to make sure there are no errors. Why was that not done?

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Sikka (Lab)]

My Lords—

[Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con)]

Can we let in the noble Baroness, Lady Fox, from the non-affiliated Benches, please?

[Baroness Fox of Buckley (Non-Afl)]

My Lords, one of the reasons this has resonated so widely is not just because it was a brilliant drama but because so many ordinary people recognise what it feels like to be fighting the establishment and getting nowhere. We have all spent hours shouting at the phone on those helplines on the computer—that is in relation not just to HMRC but to the NHS and everything you deal with—but people were also treated as though they were criminals, not believed, and gaslit by these experts who know what they are talking about.

Anyway, there is an issue here. The whole establishment, not just the Post Office but the judiciary, seems to have a lot to answer for. I therefore ask, if the judges believed the computer, how we feel about the fact that the police national computer is maintained by Fujitsu. Britain’s criminal records database is run by Fujitsu. It has all the details of convictions, cautions, fingerprints, DNA data and—something I have been banging on about for a while—non-crime hate, when you have not committed a crime but you are on a database run by the police. Fujitsu has it. I do not feel safe in these circumstances, and I identify with the little man against the establishment.