Kashmir

Bob Blackman Excerpts

Thursday 11th September 2014 Westminster Hall

[Mr Ward]

What hon. Members are saying is simple common sense. That is the reality of the situation. We cannot go on pretending that things are how we would like them to be. The reality is that India and Pakistan will not give up what they believe to be their right to certain parts of the former princely state. It is ludicrous to continue to believe that that will happen. If that is the case, we must ask what we can do to try to make life tolerable for those who have suffered for so long.

Some might regard that as equivalent to giving up on ever getting rid of slavery or apartheid in South Africa. It is selling out, particularly to those who seek independence. In answer to the question of whether Kashmiris are given the vote, however, which Kashmiris are we talking about? Would Ladakhis regard themselves as Kashmiris? Who are we talking about?

In the totality of Jammu and Kashmir, Muslims constitute about 67% of the population and Hindus 31%; the rest are Sikh or Buddhist. In Jammu itself, however, Hindus constitute 65% of the population, Muslims 31% and Sikhs 4%. In Ladakh, 46% are Buddhist, 6% Hindus and so on. Gilgit-Baltistan is Muslim, as is Azad Jammu and Kashmir, but even within AJK, identity is as much to do with baradari as with religion—believe me, I come from Bradford and I know that. The cultural and linguistic links in AJK are actually stronger with the Punjab than they are with the Kashmiris in the valley. That is the reality.

[Bob Blackman (Harrow East) (Con)]

I have listened with great interest to the hon. Gentleman’s speech and his view of why we should be debating the issue. He seems to be suggesting that the Indian and Pakistani Governments cannot be trusted to reach some form of agreement on the future. Is he suggesting that this country, the United Nations or some other country should somehow force a solution? That would seem completely against self-determination for the people of the Kashmir valley.

[Mr Ward]

I am not suggesting that. As I said earlier when discussing mediation, we should certainly not be forcing a solution; I do not see that as a part for us to play. However, we have close and strong links with those countries, and I believe we have some part to play. We should acknowledge that and find out what that part is. The hon. Gentleman talked about trust; this period of distrust, this failure of trust, has not affected us, but it has resulted in hundreds and thousands of people dying. That has an impact internationally, but also on the people whom I represent.

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[Bob Blackman (Harrow East) (Con)]

Is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, as ever, Mr Hollobone, and an honour to follow the hon. Member for Ealing, Southall (Mr Sharma). I congratulate the hon. Member for Bradford East (Mr Ward) on leading the debate. He engaged in much analysis, but after 45 minutes, he came up with no solution.

I know of no other issue that creates such emotion among this country’s Indian and Pakistani communities as the position of Jammu and Kashmir. It is important that we as elected representatives should debate the issues and represent those views. I stand as an unabashed friend of India to defend India’s position in the conflict and the people who were ethnically cleansed from Kashmir.

It is ironic that although the hon. Member for Bradford East gave a balanced view, his website portrays only one viewpoint. That is a shame. Clearly, we have the duty and right to debate the issues that are so emotional for many people. However, as the hon. Member for Brent North (Barry Gardiner) mentioned, it is for India and Pakistan under the bilateral agreement—the Simla agreement—to resolve things and make a decision. It is not for Great Britain or any other country to intrude on matters pertinent to them.

Today, we commemorate the anniversary of 9/11, one of the most terrible of terrorist atrocities. We send our sympathies to the victims and their families. However, every day in Kashmir, along the line of control, state-sponsored terrorists from Pakistan infiltrate Jammu and Kashmir and cause atrocities. We must mark that, and say that the Pakistani Government clearly cannot be trusted to do what they should and stop that terrorism against the people of Jammu and Kashmir. Underground tunnels have recently been discovered, which promote the infiltration, and there has clearly been assistance from the Pakistani forces that occupy part of Kashmir.

The role of the Indian army is clear, and I would like to hear from the Minister what aid the United Kingdom will offer flood victims in Kashmir. We are ready to provide such assistance to those poor victims, and our sympathies must go out to them for what they have suffered.

I have a solution to the issue before us, which is that we should remember the long history of the conflict. The United Kingdom had the role of partitioning India and Pakistan, and the partition that was created was never going to last. The concept of East Pakistan and West Pakistan as one country separated by India was never going to stand the test of time. Clearly, it did not, and Bangladesh came from that. Equally, the Maharaja decided to cede the territory to India. The Pakistani Government and forces refused to accept that decision and invaded. It was at the behest of the Maharaja that the Indian army moved in to try to wrest control back, according to the original purpose. That was in 1947. Therefore, we can say that the continued conflict of the past 70 years is terrible, but that it is clear where responsibility for it lies. We must place it fairly and squarely with the Pakistanis and their successive Governments.

[Several hon. Members]

rose—

[Bob Blackman]

I will not give way, as we do not have injury time.

As has been mentioned, there is democracy in Jammu and Kashmir. There is actually a Muslim majority, and as the hon. Member for Brent North said, they voted overwhelmingly in the elections and came up with a decisive result. It may not be the one everyone wants, but it was decisive. When we debate such issues just as Jammu and Kashmir is about to go to the polls, the risk is that we inflame tensions between the communities. We should understand the position of the various groups. The Shi’a Muslims do not support the right of self-determination, and nor do the Gujjars and Bakarwals, Buddhists, Hindi Dogras, Kashmiri Pandits, Sikhs or Christians. The only issue is that part of the Muslim population support it; but they are a minority. Far from wanting secession, either to Pakistan or as a separate state, the vast majority of people in the state want it to remain part of India. I have a solution to the problem, which is that the Pakistani forces illegally occupying part of Kashmir should leave and unite Jammu and Kashmir as one state under the auspices of India, and then it should be decided what is to happen.

The Hindu Pandits were forced out in a process of ethnic cleansing. The reports that I hear give a figure of 700,000 of them still living in refugee camps having been forced out. It would be ridiculous to reward those who engaged in ethnic cleansing—

[Mr Khalid Mahmood]

rose—

[Bob Blackman]

I will not give way.

It would be ridiculous to reward those people by saying, “We will get rid of all the people who might vote the wrong way, and then have a plebiscite.” It is absurd to represent the question in that way.

There are humanitarian matters in the conflict that need to be concluded. The victims are the Pandits who were forced out of their homes and the women who were forced at the point of a gun to convert from Hinduism to Islam, and were left to suffer. The populations in Jammu and Kashmir trust the secular state of India, which of course has a growing Muslim population, and Sikh and Christian populations, to administer their country rather more than they trust a predominantly Muslim Pakistani Administration. Minority groups in Pakistan—Hindus, Christians, Sikhs and others—are deliberately persecuted and they suffer at the hands of the Government.

It is now some 25 years since the worst atrocities in the Kashmir valley, when Hindus were driven out by the Islamic fundamentalists. We should be on the side of the people who suffered and make sure that the people who are in exile have the right to return to the homes that they occupied for centuries. Without doubt, that is the position we should take. I look forward to hearing the Minister say that this country stands full square behind the Indian Government and army, to ensure that there is peace and stability in the region.

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[Andrew Griffiths]

No. I think I have heard enough from the hon. Gentleman. I have a short amount of time, so I should like to move on.

It is sad that this debate started off in such aggressive tones, because we should not forget that it is not about lines on a map or territory, but about humans and humanity. That must be central in all discussions that take place on this issue.

We have heard some fantastic speeches. I pay tribute to my hon. Friend the Member for Wycombe (Steve Baker) for leading the first debate on Kashmir on the Floor of the House, in which he spoke eloquently and was very informed. I had the pleasure of visiting Pakistan and Kashmir with my friend the hon. Member for Rochdale (Simon Danczuk), and talking to people who had been affected by this issue. The hon. Member for Birmingham, Ladywood (Shabana Mahmood) also made a fantastic speech.

I want to talk about the impact of this situation on the people of Kashmir. We need to talk about human rights. The hon. Lady mentioned the report compiled by Amnesty International, “India: A ‘Lawless Law’”, which considered the operations of the 500,000 Indian troops stationed in this area—just think about that figure for a second. We heard earlier that, of course, the elections had taken place and that it was all fine: nobody had raised the issue of separatism in the elections. I say gently that there are 500,000 troops with guns pointed at people in this area, so it is slightly difficult to accept that an election can take place under those circumstances.

My hon. Friend the Member for Harrow East (Bob Blackman) says, “Well, this is a minority in Indian-administered Kashmir who want a plebiscite and their right to self-determination.” If that is so and he genuinely thinks that only a small minority of people in Indian-administered Kashmir are in favour of independence, then let them have the vote. What is there to worry about? What have the Indian Government got to worry about?

[Bob Blackman]

Will my hon. Friend give way?

[Andrew Griffiths]

I will carry on, if I may. I have only a few minutes, as my hon. Friend will understand.

There is a serious issue here in relation to human rights. Amnesty International clearly identifies instances of people being abducted and disappearing and talks of torture and rape. We have well documented evidence of mass graves and mass killings. We are talking about the fact that 100,000 have died as a result of what has gone on in Indian-administered Kashmir.

Lots of people in the Kashmiri diaspora in the UK get hugely frustrated that this is the forgotten crisis. How on earth can we forget—how can we ignore—the fact that 100,000 people, or more, have lost their lives, that there are mass graves and that rape is being used by the Indian army? These cases are well documented by recognised non-governmental organisations. It is essential that we address this matter here.

Many hon. Members have said today that we should keep our nose out and that the British Government have no reason for involvement in this matter, but of course they do. We have an obligation because it is well documented that the British drew a line on the map. We chose where the borders were. It was a British decision and we have a responsibility to do what we can to assist. It is not for us to come in like some grand colonial power, telling India and Pakistan what they should do. However, we have an obligation to try to facilitate and foster a resolution. We should use our influence to get the Indian and Pakistan Governments around a table, discussing this issue in a calm, civilised way.

There are three sets of people who must take part in these discussions: the Indian Government, the Pakistan Government and the people of Kashmir. That absolutely must happen, and until it happens it will continue to be a stain on India. I am a great fan of India—I have great respect for the country—but this is a question mark that hangs over it and it is in everybody’s interests that it finds a solution to the problem.

The hon. Member for Bradford East is pessimistic and I understand his pessimism, but there is some opportunity for us to move things forward. Although we have had some setbacks with Mr Modi, he has the power and the desire to find some solution here.

There are other things we can do. We must keep in the forefront of our minds the effect that the situation has on the people of Kashmir and try to do what we can to improve the lives of those people—including, as we have heard, allowing trade across the borders and allowing movement. It is unthinkable that, because of the line of control, people have never been able to see their grandchildren or visit the graves of their parents. That is barbaric and we must do what we can to solve that problem.

We should try to demilitarise the area. I understand the concerns about the line of control, but how can it be necessary to have 500,000 troops to defend that? We must try to take the gun out of this situation as much as possible.

We have seen the devastating impact this situation has had on the people of Kashmir. I hope that there is a change in approach from this Government and that we can be proactive in trying to encourage a solution. The British and American Governments have a role to play in facilitating that dialogue and improving the lives of the people of Kashmir. There must be an improvement in those people’s quality of life. Yes, I would love to see the people of Kashmir having the right to self-determination, but it is critical that Kashmiris’ lives improve, and improve as soon as possible.

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[Mr Ellwood]

I have much to cover, so I will get the Minister of State to write to my hon. Friend on that.

The hon. Member for Birmingham, Ladywood (Shabana Mahmood) spoke movingly about her relationship with the situation. She brings a passionate and personal aspect and dimension to the debate, which is much better for her contribution and for her bringing her knowledge and experience to bear. She also spoke of human rights violations. India has a strong democratic framework that guarantees human rights within its constitution. However, it also faces numerous challenges relating to size and social and economic development. The British Government are working with the Indian Government to build capacity and share expertise to tackle those challenges, including the promotion and protection of human rights.

The hon. Member for Birmingham, Perry Barr (Mr Mahmood) spoke of the importance of confidence-building measures.

My hon. Friend the Member for Wolverhampton South West (Paul Uppal) took the novel approach of turning up without any notes at all, but he did an amazing job. I will give that method a try the next time that I turn up for a debate—

[Bob Blackman]

Not as a Minister.

[Mr Ellwood]

Probably not as a Minister. My hon. Friend the Member for Wolverhampton South West gave a powerful speech and wisely and rightly placed the conflict into context. He described the limitations of what stakeholders can and cannot do, or should or should not do, away from Kashmir itself.

The hon. Member for Ealing, Southall (Mr Sharma) spoke about the devastating floods and of the welcome collaboration between Pakistan and India in responding to the event. I agree that it is for the two nations to resolve the matter, and I am pleased that he made that point.

My hon. Friend the Member for Harrow West—[Hon. Members: “East!”] I am not doing well here; I will bring a compass next time. My hon. Friend the Member for Harrow East (Bob Blackman) also mentioned flooding. As I said, we have not yet received a request from either Government for assistance, but we are in close contact with the relevant partners in both countries and stand by ready to help. As has been mentioned, we, including under the last Government, have given support during previous disasters in the region. In Pakistan, we are already helping more than 250,000 people who had their livelihoods destroyed in the 2012 flooding to use more productive farming techniques, as well as helping over 70,000 people to build more flood-resilient housing.

The hon. Member for Ealing North (Stephen Pound)—he is the House’s hon. Friend—gave a characteristically entertaining, passionate and wise speech and spoke of our right to debate such issues. We have that freedom, right and ability to speak, but we must speak responsibly so as not to inflame the situation.

My hon. Friend the Member for Burton (Andrew Griffiths) talked about the impact of the troubles on the people of Kashmir and about the importance of trade and movement across the line of control, which we are keen to encourage.

My right hon. Friend the Member for Bexhill and Battle (Gregory Barker) echoed the importance of the two sides seeking a solution to the issue of Kashmir without other countries such as the UK and the US trying to solve it from afar. He also reminded us of the significance of the date today—9/11—when we saw terrorism try to have an effect on, or make a dent in, our democratic values and democratic society. Sadly, as he knows, I lost a brother to terrorism, killed in the Bali bombing in 2002, so I stand here as someone who is passionate about our democratic values and about the fact that we must stand up to and fight terrorism in all its guises. I defend the right for us to have such debates and to promote democracy throughout the world.

Finally, the hon. Member for Luton South (Gavin Shuker) managed to squeeze in at the end, after his flight got in. He spoke about the importance of justice and security issues.

I am grateful to have participated in the debate. We have all learned much about what is happening, bringing the House up to date. I am pleased that on a Thursday, when there is only a one-line Whip for today and tomorrow, we are still able to fill the Chamber and to discuss such matters with the urgency that they deserve. I fully recognise the strength of feeling about the dispute among many people in Britain. I am glad that the debate has given me the opportunity to set out the Government’s position. Once again, I thank the hon. Member for Bradford East for raising the issues and hon. Members for their important and valuable contributions. I hope that I leave enough time for the hon. Gentleman to respond.