European Union (Referendum) Bill
Debate between Brian Binley and David Nuttall(10 years, 10 months ago)
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Mr Nuttall
I did say that it was widely referred to as the Common Market. It was called the European Economic Community, then the word “Economic” was dropped and it became the European Community, as the hon. Gentleman rightly says. It then changed from the European Community to the European Union as ever-closer union began to take effect.
Mr Nuttall
My hon. Friend makes a very good point.
My point is simply that we have seen a gradual extension of the powers of the European Union. That is just one of the many reasons why an increasing number of people are reaching the conclusion that I have reached: our country would be better off out of the European Union.
I want us to trade with our European neighbours, but I do not see why we should have to pay billions of pounds every year for the privilege of doing so, particularly when we buy more goods from them than they buy from us.
Employment Opportunities Bill
Debate between Brian Binley and David Nuttall
Mr David Nuttall (Bury North) (Con)
It is a great pleasure to follow my hon. Friend the Member for Wellingborough (Mr Bone) and I thank him for the sound comments he made; and I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Christchurch (Mr Chope) on bringing the Bill before us. I am conscious that time is marching on and that other Members wish to speak before we hear from the Minister. I shall not, therefore, reiterate the sensible and sound arguments made in support of this Bill, which I, too, am proud to support. However, one or two points have not been mentioned, so it might be of benefit to everyone if I highlighted them.
First, let me say at the outset that my support is based on my desire to do all I can to help those people in my constituency—people in Bury, Tottington and Ramsbottom—who are unemployed. The latest figures from the Library on the number of people claiming jobseeker’s allowance in my constituency as of May 2011 show that 625 such claimants are aged 24 or under; 1,055 are between 25 and 49; and 280 are aged 50 and over—totalling 1,960, which is nearly 2,000 people. Those are the people I want to help.
The great benefit that would accrue if the Bill reached the statute book is that we could make the rights of those people a reality. I mean the basic human right contained, as my hon. Friend the Member for Christchurch said, in article 23(1) of the universal declaration of human rights—that everyone has the right to work. The minimum wage legislation, however, removed that right to work from certain people, who were told, “We are sorry, but you cannot do what you would like to do. We have decided for you. We have taken that right away from you. We will tell you whether or not you can choose to work.” That cannot be right.
My hon. Friend the Member for Wellingborough, who is no longer in the Chamber, did not make clear whether he was an employer at the time when the minimum wage was introduced, but I can tell the House that I was. I can speak about the effects of that legislation on the basis of first-hand experience. Credit should be given where it is due: we were given notice, and we knew what was coming down the line. The legislation had been enacted, and we knew that, in time, a national minimum wage would be introduced. So we started to plan, and to assess the likely impact on our business.
Members might assume that it would be a simple matter of having to increase the pay of anyone who was earning less than the minimum wage at the level at which it was introduced back in 1999, and of course that was the first thing that we, as employers, had to do. However, it had a knock-on effect. Ours was a small business employing perhaps 40 people, and the introduction of the minimum wage probably affected two or three of them, although I cannot recall the precise number. They were the office juniors—the staff members who were at the bottom of our pay scales. They might have been with us for only a few weeks or months.
Most of our staff were moved on, and those who started as office juniors knew that they would be able to work their way up and become junior typists, then secretaries, and eventually, perhaps, trainee legal executives. Other staff members, however, had already progressed within the business and were earning what had now become the minimum wage. As soon as the office juniors were moved up, we had to start moving everyone else up. I understand that the process is known as “pay leapfrogging”. All that happened was that everyone was moved up the ladder.
Mr Binley
Another facet of the minimum wage was that it increased at twice the rate of inflation, which had the effect of shoving all wages up. Does my hon. Friend agree that Ministers in the last Government—the present Opposition—worked on behalf of their paymasters, the unions, to achieve that very objective? One wonders where it would have ended in terms of Britain’s competitiveness.
Mr Nuttall
My hon. Friend has made a good point. That was part of the overall effect of the introduction of the national minimum wage, with which I was about to deal. Earlier speakers have said that many employees—especially those at the bottom of the pay scales—benefited from its introduction, but it is sometimes forgotten that, by implication, it must have had an inflationary effect on the economy. Nowadays we are constantly hearing that the increase in the VAT rate has, understandably, had an effect on the inflation figures. Similarly, given that the cost of employing people is the biggest single cost incurred by many businesses—especially in the service sector—the introduction of a national minimum wage is bound to have a serious and significant inflationary effect. Therefore, the overall effect of helping those at the very bottom of the pay scales is perhaps not as great as may sometimes be thought.
We have heard a lot about the arguments for, and logic behind, the national minimum wage, but I submit that they are, in fact, arguments for a national income guarantee, as there would be logic in saying every member of society should have a given minimum level of income. That is not what the national minimum wage does, however. It is entirely different, and therefore in most cases—there are exceptions, one of which I shall touch on shortly—the choice is between a life on benefit and a life in work.
Let us consider the following hypothetical situation. An entrepreneur wants to establish a new restaurant in my constituency. It is a large restaurant with a number of tables, and he wants to employ waiters and waitresses. The restaurant will be open full-time, and he calculates that he can pay a total of £53.37 per hour for his workers. It just so happens that that is nine times the current national minimum wage of £5.93. At present therefore, he would be able to employ nine members of staff. The entrepreneur places an advertisement in the press, and 10 people apply for the jobs—the true figure would probably be much higher, of course. They are all friends who went to school together or met at the local job centre. They are probably some of the 625 people to whom I have referred who are unemployed. They say to the entrepreneur, “This is great. This is just what we would like to do. It is an opportunity for a job. We would all like a job.” The entrepreneur replies, “I’m sorry, but under the current legislation I cannot employ all of you. The best I can do is employ nine of you.” Therefore, the 10th friend is left unemployed and living on benefits, whereas the other nine can get a job earning the minimum wage.
Under the Bill’s provisions however, they would be allowed to say, “Actually, we’ll help our friend out. We want to help our friend No. 10; we want him to have a job. We all voluntarily agree to that. We would still be far better off if we worked for, let’s say, £5.33 an hour, and then all 10 of us will be able to have a job. We’ll all be friends working together. That will be tremendous, and our poor 10th friend will not be left on their own.” Without this Bill’s provisions, the great irony of the existing situation is that the nine would be employed while the 10th could become self-employed and would be entitled to work for less than the minimum wage in any case. That is an anomaly in the current legislation.
Whenever the national minimum wage is discussed and arguments are put for and against it, people always talk about “big businesses” and “rogue employers”, but let us not forget that the national minimum wage applies to all employers, including charities and small organisations in the voluntary sector. They are all affected by the national minimum wage. The Bill is a contribution to the big society, because it would mean that small charities would be able to employ more people, not only the young, but perhaps older people, too—this is not just about people in the under-24 category. My figures show that in my constituency this might apply to 280 people over 50. These people might be able to afford to work for less, perhaps because they have bought their own home and paid off the mortgage, and they may wish to help a local charity. I am talking about self-sufficient people who are not claiming benefits and who want to work for a small local charity. As the law stands, they would not be able to do so. The Bill therefore contributes to another other theme of the big society—that of passing power over.