Puberty Blockers

Caroline Johnson Excerpts

Tuesday 23rd June 2026 Commons Chamber

[Dr Caroline Johnson (Sleaford and North Hykeham) (Con)]

I beg to move,

That this House calls on the Government to take steps to prevent the PATHWAYS clinical trial into the effect of puberty suppressing hormones on children with gender incongruence.

Before I start, I declare an interest as an NHS consultant paediatrician, a member of the Royal College of Paediatrics and Child Health, and a member of the British Medical Association. It is also important for us to recognise at the beginning of this debate that we are talking about the protection of children—vulnerable children who are troubled, and who need our care and compassion and the very best quality of healthcare.

The healthcare of children distressed about their gender is an area in which attempts have been made to shut down debate with threats and accusations of transphobia; we saw the way that the hon. Member for Canterbury (Rosie Duffield) was treated when she raised concerns. As adults and as elected Members of this House, we have a duty to safeguard children in our country. That means protecting them from adults who—with whatever motivation, good or bad—could do them harm.

As a children’s doctor, I have recruited patients for trials, and I have cared for children and babies participating in clinical trials. I recognise the value of a well-designed clinical trial in improving clinical care, but today the House is not being asked to consider the principle of performing clinical trials in general, or on children in particular—I hope we can all agree that a well-designed trial can improve care. Rather, we are being asked to consider the Pathways trial: whether it meets ethical tests, what it does, the cohort, the protocol and the consent. I will go through each of those points in turn.

The Pathways trial is part of a group of studies run by King’s College London and funded by the Government. So what does it do and why are we so concerned? The trial will take 226 children who are physically healthy—who are developing normally—and inject them with powerful drugs to delay that normal development in a way that may weaken their bones, affect their ability to think, damage their sexual function, and leave them unable to have children of their own.

We are told that the purpose of this is to treat a diagnosis of gender incongruence. So what is gender incongruence? The International Classification of Diseases states that it is

“characterised by a marked and persistent incongruence between an individual’s experienced gender and the assigned sex, which often leads to a desire to ‘transition’”.

We know that gender incongruence is a condition that is subjective. It is based on how someone tells us they feel. There are no blood tests and no lab markers that can be used to diagnose it. As a paediatrician myself, I understand that how patients feel, particularly in relation to their mental health, is very important. We know from the Cass review that the vast majority of children with gender incongruence will get better on their own. Again, as a paediatrician, I am used to providing supportive treatment for conditions such as respiratory viruses and gastroenteritis, which generally get better on their own, but I am not used to giving powerful drugs to children that can cause permanent long-term damage for subjective, self-resolving difficulties during adolescence.

[Sir Bernard Jenkin (Harwich and North Essex) (Con)]

As a consultant paediatrician, my hon. Friend will be able to give a definitive view on this matter. Some who campaign for this treatment and therapy argue that the effects of gene therapy are reversible. To what extent are they reversible? Should we be treating this as a reversible treatment? My hon. Friend has referred to permanent damage. Can we try to agree across the House at least on this matter: that gene therapy applied to children is not reversible?

[Dr Johnson]

This is not a form of gene therapy. It is a medication that is a GnRH analogue, and what it essentially does is delay puberty. It was designed as a drug to treat children who go into puberty much earlier than they would be expected to, and to delay it until, as it were, the right time. The effects of the use of puberty blockers in older children and for a much longer period, at an age when they ought to have started puberty, are not fully understood.

[Gregory Stafford (Farnham and Bordon) (Con)]

My hon. Friend says that we do not know the effects, but a number of children have been put through this process via the now discredited Tavistock process. Why does she think that the NHS will not refer to the data linkage study and use the data that would have been gained from the children who were put through that process, in order to find out what the effects are before deciding to put a whole new cohort of children through what is clearly a damaging procedure?

[Dr Johnson]

My hon. Friend raises a very good point, and I will come to the data linkage study shortly. What we do know from the Cass review is that the vast majority of children who went on to puberty blockers in adolescence went on to receive cross-sex hormones, which are known to have permanent effects.

One fact that is crucially important is that it is not possible for clinicians to confidently determine which children with gender incongruence will persist with the trans identity into adulthood, and which will not. How can the clinicians possibly know that they are not injecting potentially dangerous drugs into children whose incongruence will resolve itself? The answer is that they cannot. Will the Secretary of State tell us whether he is aware of new evidence allowing clinicians to work out confidently which children will persist with the trans identity at 11 and which will not? We need to think about the risk involved in the treatment, and whether it is worth the benefits that they will purportedly receive.

The trial researchers suggest that they will take a wide approach to looking at potential benefits, that they will look at quality of life and body satisfaction, and that there must be a reasonable prospect of benefit; but how can they know whether there is a reasonable prospect of benefit when they do not know whether or not the condition will persist? Some have suggested that giving puberty blockers will help the few adults who retain their trans identity into adulthood to pass as the opposite sex. Does the Secretary of State think that the long-term damage to many is worth it for the cosmetic benefit of a few? The Medicines for Human Use (Clinical Trials) Regulations 2004 specify that “anticipated benefits” must justify the risk. This is an ethical rather than a medical question. Does the Secretary of State think that the benefits justify the risk?

I regret that we have ended up discussing the details of a clinical trial in the Chamber—the reality is that things should be done impartially by scientists in most cases—but with this topic we have seen the quashing of open debate, which is why we have ended up where we are.

I will move on to the point made by my hon. Friend the Member for Farnham and Bordon (Gregory Stafford). Even if the Secretary of State thinks the principle of the trial is right, he must surely agree that it is unnecessary and unethically broad. For example, if someone was designing a trial to treat children with a specific form of cancer, the children who would be entered into the trial would have that specific form of cancer. We would not include children with any disease, because that would make the results unreliable in terms of benefit to the target group and children would be unnecessarily put at risk of receiving experimental drugs that they did not need.

The same applies to this trial. The Cass report tells us that many of the children in the proposed trial will get better on their own. The Secretary of State said yesterday that

“we are talking about a very small subset of a very small group.”—[Official Report, 22 June 2026; Vol. 788, c. 56.]

[Dr Scott Arthur (Edinburgh South West) (Lab)]

The hon. Lady knows that she is one of my favourite Tories—I think I have said that before. She has quoted Baroness Cass many times. Of course, Baroness Cass thinks this trial should go ahead, because the benefits outweigh the costs. Why is Baroness Cass wrong and the hon. Lady right?

[Dr Johnson]

Well, one of the things with doctors is that if you ask two doctors, you might get two different opinions. I completely respect Baroness Cass. She has been president of the Royal College of Paediatrics and Child Health, of which I am a member, and she has done great work on the report that we commissioned in the last Parliament. I know she is concerned that people may obtain these drugs illegally if they are not provided, but I do not share that concern. Personally, I think the important thing is whether the people obtaining such drugs legally are using them in a way that is safe, and I am not convinced that that is the case.

[Dr Arthur]

By giving way a second time, the hon. Lady shows why she is my favourite Tory. Does Baroness Cass not say that she has met young people who have been self-medicating with testosterone, which is irreversible? That is one of the problems that we are trying to address through this trial. It is about protecting young people so that they are not going down their own medical pathway, but are listening to medical advice and are well supported in a coherent framework.

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[Dr Johnson]

I am sorry, but I just do not support that. We would not give children cocaine on the basis that they wanted it and would get it illegally otherwise. These are not sweeties; they are powerful drugs and need to be treated with respect.

Even if we accept the premise that a very small number of people might benefit from treatment, how could clinicians decide which children to treat? On what ethical or moral code would we want to inject powerful drugs into children who are likely to have a self-limiting illness and therefore do not need it? That is what the Government have chosen to do, and it is not necessary.

Following on from the point made by my hon. Friend the Member for Farnham and Bordon, they have this data already. The Tavistock was a travesty, but it means that the Government could analyse the data from the outcomes of those children. They could establish the outcomes as children went into adulthood, and Baroness Cass tried to do this using the data linkage study. Shockingly, six out of seven adult gender clinics refused to provide the Government with the data. Even when a specific piece of legislation was passed by the previous Government to clarify that it was legal to provide the information to this trial, the gender clinics still did not provide it.

I understand that NHS England is working on the data linkage study, but I ask the Secretary of State why it is taking so long. Is the abolition of NHS England causing delay? Why is he letting this trial, which he has expressed reservations about, go ahead in the knowledge that it is unnecessarily broad and in advance of the data linkage study?

[Iqbal Mohamed (Dewsbury and Batley) (Ind)]

Does the hon. Lady agree that unblocking the reasons why the data is not being made available should be the top priority, and that analysis of that data should be done before any further experiments on children are done?

[Dr Johnson]

The hon. Gentleman is exactly right, and he expresses my point succinctly. Why is the Secretary of State going ahead with a trial—experimenting on more children unnecessarily—when he has the data to analyse already? Why has he chosen to fund this trial? Is he worried about the children who will be put on a medical pathway that may lead to cross-sex hormones and a lifetime of medicalisation when they would have got better by themselves anyway?

I want to talk about the age of these young people. The Medicines and Healthcare products Regulatory Agency warned in February that the youngest patients are at the greatest risk, and may end up on puberty blockers for a much longer period. They have a higher risk to fertility because sperm and eggs have not yet fully developed at Tanner stage 2, but this Government have chosen to include children of 11 or 12. Some will wonder why it is 11 for girls and 12 for boys—indeed, I was asked that question yesterday—but as a paediatrician I am aware that puberty starts earlier in girls than in boys. It is somewhat ironic that a trial based on the premise that girls could be boys recognises this biology, but I am glad that in this respect it does. However, that means some of the participants will be primary school-aged children with the merest form of puberty. How can they possibly meet the eligibility criteria, which includes

“sufficient understanding of the treatment advantages and disadvantages, including discussion of fertility preservation”?

How can a child of 11 understand what it means to lose sexual function, to be unable to have children when they are older, to have difficulties in thinking and to have weak bones? Remember that this Government think that 14-year-olds are not old enough to watch social media, but they think 11-year-olds are capable of understanding this.

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

I just say this to the hon. Lady and, perhaps more importantly, to the Secretary of State, who is very genuine, personable and easy to speak to. In Northern Ireland, the Assembly and the Minister there have taken a decision not to pursue this. Would the hon. Lady agree that, when the Government pursue something here that may set a precedent for somewhere that has not agreed to it at the time, there could be an influence, with an adverse impact on the regional Administrations—the Northern Ireland Assembly where we are, and elsewhere—and it is important that the Government here do not take a decision that could influence areas they do not control?

[Dr Johnson]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for his intervention on devolution, and I am sure the Secretary of State was listening and considering what he has said.

To go back to the age of the young people, I am reminded of the judgment in Bell v. Tavistock, which says:

“We do not think that the answer to this case is simply to give the child more, and more detailed, information. The issue in our view is that in many cases, however much information the child is given as to long-term consequences, s/he will not be able to weigh up the implications of the treatment to a sufficient degree.”

I draw right hon. and hon. Members’ attention to the next part of the quote:

“There is no age appropriate way to explain to many of these children what losing their fertility or full sexual function may mean to them in later years.”

Yet, as Secretary of State confirmed yesterday, the children must consent or assent to being in this trial. Another question that he did not answer yesterday is why the Government did not heed the MHRA recommendation for a minimum of 14 years. Having established that the Government are going to put a group of physically healthy children with a self-resolving condition at a risk they may not fully understand, the remaining question is why they would they want to do this.

The trial itself has an interesting design. We are told that it is a randomised controlled trial—as a doctor, I am familiar with that term—but in this case it is a bit of a fudge. Yes, this Government-sponsored trial will randomise which children get the drugs now and which get them in a year’s time, but the comparison group that does not receive puberty blockers—300 children from the Horizon Intensive trial, with whom the trial will seek to compare—may not be considered a reliable comparison, because the group is a different group with different eligibility criteria. When the results of this trial are published, this fact is bound to be used by people who dispute or disagree with the findings. The Secretary of State said this trial will resolve the dispute over the issue, but that is one of the reasons why I think it will not.

I want to discuss sexual function, because yesterday the Secretary of State said that the trial would involve the completion of a number of questionnaires, and one of my hon. Friends raised the question about what happens to children’s sexual function in the long term. What is sexual function? It is desire, arousal and orgasm. The trial organisers are clearly concerned about this, because they put into the trial the ALSPAC—Avon longitudinal study of parents and children—romantic relationships questionnaire. I read the questionnaire on the Health Research Authority website, and children from the age of 12 and over will be asked these questions, one of which is:

“In the last year have you had oral sex with another person? (This is when they put their mouth or tongue on your penis/vagina or you put your mouth or tongue on their penis/vagina)”.

Let us be clear: if that is happening to a 12-year-old, that is sexual abuse and the police should be called. Is the Secretary of State content for the Government to be asking these questions of such young children? Can he believe that they will be paid £20 for completing their questionnaires, alongside £30 for completing the assessment of cognitive ability and £15 for completing physical and height assessments, in addition to travel expenses?

There will be lots of talk this week about the Prime Minister’s legacy. Putting children as young as 11 on puberty blockers, with irreversible life-changing consequences, would be the most disturbing final chapter in what has been a troubled book of leadership. Today, right hon. and hon. Members will be asked to vote to consider their approval or disapproval of the trial. I urge them to look at their conscience, read the trial protocol—it is online—and remember that these are vulnerable children who deserve the best care. One day, the children caught in the middle of this debate will be adults. It is our responsibility to ensure that when they look back on their one childhood, their one adolescence and their one chance to enjoy growing up, they must know that every decision was made with the utmost care, caution and respect for their future. The power to make that happen is in our hands today. I urge hon. Members to protect children’s futures.

Health Bill (Fourth sitting)

Caroline Johnson Excerpts

Committee stage
Tuesday 23rd June 2026 Public Bill Committees

Using one dataset to decide funding from one pot of money, and another for another pot of money seems quite arbitrary—or at least not joined up. If that happens within one Department, there is greater scope for it happening across different Departments—indeed, it is certain that it will. By my reading, that is what amendment 30 is designed to address. Whether this is the right place for that, and whether it will actually achieve anything, I am not sure, but it is certainly a debate that needs to be had. It may well be that here is better than anywhere else in terms of including it somewhere in law.

[Dr Caroline Johnson (Sleaford and North Hykeham) (Con)]

It is a pleasure to speak to clause 4 and this group of amendments. Health inequalities are commonly defined as the systemic differences in health status and distribution of health resources between different population groups. There are limits to how far the state can equalise health in a free society, but I am sure all Members would agree that the service should not preside over differences in access to health resources. Unequal access runs contrary to the vision of the NHS as a comprehensive service, available to all and based on clinical need, not ability to pay. Those principles are violated when people without fixed addresses struggle to access general practice, or patients in rural areas, such as my constituency, miss out on treatments—for example, specialist cancer treatments—that are available in more urban areas.

The Health and Social Care Act 2012 inserted section 1C in the National Health Service Act 2006, placing a duty on the Secretary of State to consider the need to reduce inequalities in the benefits that people obtain from the health service. As the explanatory notes to the 2012 Act made clear, the intention of that was to

“include consideration of the need to reduce inequalities in access...and the outcomes”.

Clause 4 of this Bill takes that which was understood and makes it more explicit.

The Minister will be pleased to hear that I support updating that duty—she is smiling. The word “benefits” in the original section is a nebulous and subjective term. The wording introduced by the clause is less imprecise and requires the Secretary of State to consider the whole health pipeline. None the less, I have some questions about the lens that clause 4 and its predecessor, section 1C of the 2006 Act, invite the Secretary of State to look through, particularly in relation to other statements made by the Government.

In the Government’s policy paper “ICBs as strategic commissioners”, they say that increasing the commissioning responsibilities of integrated care boards will result in them being

“better placed to support innovation”

and

“design new models of care”.

Innovation can produce disparities; that is true in healthcare as well. If one ICB decides to innovate and produces a better service, that area will have a better service than another, and the Secretary of State will have the job of undoing that. That could be done by spreading the innovation across the whole of the country, but if the innovation is expensive or difficult to roll out, it could in effect be quashed. Does the Minister recognise that empowering health leaders to innovate and do things differently could widen inequalities, at least in the short term? Is she willing to accept that?

A problem with using inequalities as a stand-alone metric is that it does not really tell you whether things are getting better or worse; it must be taken into consideration alongside a wide range of other metrics. An often forgotten fact is that disparities can be reduced by levelling down as well as by levelling up. Fixating on determining the size and cause of disparities can, in some cases, come at the expense of eliminating them. I recently tabled a written question to ask the Government if and when they plan to

“set an explicit target to close the Black and Asian maternal mortality gap.”

I note that the Minister stood on a manifesto pledge to close that gap. The Government response to my question indicated that they are waiting for Baroness Amos to finish looking at the drivers of inequalities before they do anything. It is possible to produce tomes on the nature of disparities; I suggest that energy would be better spent on addressing them.

Amendment 13 would require the Secretary of State to consider health inequalities arising from differences in general health determinants. I understand the sentiment behind the amendment, as statistically, those with lower earning capacity, limited access to green space or unhealthy lifestyles have comparatively worse health outcomes, but would placing a duty to take stock of that on the Secretary of State make the health service any better for such groups, or for the population as a whole?

What would be the practical purpose of the amendment? As somebody said to me yesterday evening, do we have a section in education legislation stating that the Education Secretary has to consider that their job is to ensure that people are educated? Do we have clauses in defence Bills saying that the Defence Secretary must consider the defence of the realm? I cannot be sure, but the amendment seems to be a statement of the blindingly obvious, so what effect would it have? Does the Member who tabled the amendment think that the Secretary of State will not consider those factors—essentially, that he will not do his job properly? Do they not have confidence in him or in future Secretaries of State?

Under the amendment, the Secretary of State would need to consider inequalities arising from people’s employment, environmental conditions and lifestyle choices, which his Department has little to no control over. If poverty is the problem, the solution is employment and welfare policy, which is not in his gift. If poor environment is the problem, the solution is environmental policy. If a well-informed adult chooses, despite knowing the detriment it may cause them, to consume unhealthy food or an excessive volume of alcohol, or not to exercise, what can and should the Minister do about it in a free society?

Amendment 13 would risk distracting from the focus of clause 4, which is, as I see it, to ensure equal access to health resources regardless of a person’s standing in society. What is the practical effect of making it a duty on the Minister to do these things? Will it cause a whole load of bureaucracy? Will the Minister have to produce impact statements for every new hospital? If, for example, one opened on the Isle of Wight—my hon. Friend the Member for Isle of Wight East was talking about that—would we need to consider what effect it would have on smokers, people who do not exercise or people who have a lower earning capacity, and produce an endless list of assessments? It would take a lot of money and effort and not really add anything. The amendment would also risk the Government getting bogged down in litigation, as people who disagreed with the Government’s or the ICB’s decision would spend their time litigating the question whether something that may or may not even be relevant was considered properly.

Members will not be surprised to hear that my thoughts on amendment 29 are similar to those on amendment 13. I do not doubt for a minute that its supporters have the best intentions, but this type of public sector equality duty language does not do anything to improve public services. Too many arms of the state have been so concerned with disparities that they have become incompetent at getting on with the job that they are actually meant to be doing; they are distracted by trying to measure all these different equalities.

Amendment 30 would require the Secretary of State to involve all Departments in reducing health inequalities and take all reasonable steps to ensure that all other Departments

“consider the impact of their policy proposals on health inequalities.”

Is this spreading the bureaucracy and the impact assessments more widely? If the Government decide to buy a new submarine, do they have to consider what effect it would have on people who smoke on the Isle of Wight? It does not make sense to me. It is a statement of the obvious that members of the Cabinet and Government have to work together to deliver better health for the country. Of course that is true, but what would be the practical effect? The Minister may be able to tell us.

New clause 19 would require the Secretary of State to publish a health improvement and health inequalities strategy within six months, and an annual report thereafter. Again, that would invite more glossy brochures from the Government, using the precious time of civil servants. The new clause seeks a cross-Government approach by mandating that all Ministers of the Crown must have regard to the strategy when carrying out their functions. Again, it is basically stating what their job is.

[Joe Robertson]

My hon. Friend hits the nail on the head. Although all these amendments come from a very good place, they are so obvious that they should already be happening, and are too obvious to be enshrined in some overriding duty in a Bill.

[Dr Johnson]

I agree. The amendments include, in many cases, a statement of what someone’s job is. Does the Member who tabled them think that the Secretary of State is not doing his job and therefore needs to be told what his job is? That could create a whole load of bureaucracy detracting from the actual job in hand.

Amendment 34 concerns transport access. I understand that that is a problem for many people in rural areas, such as my constituency. They often have a harder time, as the distance they need to travel is longer and public transport services are infrequent. Healthwatch, which will be cancelled by this Bill if the Government get their way, has heard from patients who struggle to book transport online, and whose transport turned up several hours early or was cancelled with little or notice at all. Those problems are well documented.

I visited Lincoln county hospital, which has a unit for renal dialysis, where I heard that although transport is provided for individuals having dialysis, which is good, it often does not turn up when it should or does not pick people up at the time that it is supposed to. More concerning is the fact that if they need a transplant and transplant assessments, most have to go to Leicester to have that done, which is several hours’ drive from some parts of Lincolnshire. Most disturbingly, I heard concerns that some people would choose not to go through the transplant programme, and a factor in that decision would be the ability to get to the transplant centre to have the significant amount of testing and follow-up that needs to be done. Clearly, that is not equal access, so I urge the Minister to look at that.

Imposing a duty on the Secretary of State to consider reducing inequalities is a good thing, but it does not magic up the resources necessary to fix them. In exercising his functions, it is a problem the Secretary of State is already capable of addressing. I am sure the Secretary of State, like the Minister, is a good person and wants people to be able to access the services. If Members believe the Government are failing in that regard, I would advise that adding another legislative duty is not likely to bring about the change desired. If we are being honest with the public, we must challenge the premise that every disparity is evidence of a policy failure. The duty placed on the Secretary of State should be to ensure that care is of an equally high standard across the board.

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[Peter Prinsley]

I beg to ask leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Clause 4 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clause 5

Patient involvement and choice

[Dr Johnson]

I beg to move amendment 59, in clause 5, page 4, leave out lines 2 to 4 and insert—

“(1) In exercising functions in relation to the health service, the Secretary of State must act with a view to enabling patients to make choices with respect to aspects of health services provided to them, including to make choices as to the provider of those services.

(2) For the purposes of subsection (1), the Secretary of State must ensure that patients who are referred for a service to be provided outside a hospital setting (‘out-of-hospital services’) are offered a choice of provider of that service from among the providers available in their integrated care board area and, where relevant, in neighbouring areas, in accordance with regulations made under section 14Z45B.

(3) Regulations under section 14Z45B must provide that, where an out-of-hospital service is to be provided to a patient, the integrated care board must—

(a) offer the patient a meaningful choice of at least two providers capable of providing the service, which may include NHS bodies and independent sector providers approved to provide that service under arrangements with the integrated care board;

(b) provide the patient with information to support an informed choice, including for each available provider—

(i) indicative waiting times;

(ii) the location at which the service would be provided;

(iii) the quality ratings or outcomes data applicable to that provider for that service where such data is available; and

(iv) whether any costs would be incurred by the patient in travelling to or receiving the service at that provider;

(c) not exclude from the list of available providers any provider approved solely on grounds of commercial interest or organisational type; and

(d) take all reasonable steps to give effect to the patient's choice within a clinically appropriate timeframe.

(4) For the purposes of this section, ‘out-of-hospital services’ means services—

(a) provided in community, primary care or ambulatory settings rather than in a hospital inpatient or outpatient department; and

(b) which the Secretary of State specifies by regulations as being within the scope of the choice obligation under subsection (2),

and may include diagnostic services, audiology and hearing aid care, podiatry, dietetics and nutrition, physiotherapy, ambulatory cardiac monitoring and such other services as the Secretary of State may specify.

(5) In specifying services under subsection (4)(b), the Secretary of State must have regard to—

(a) the potential for the expansion of choice to reduce waiting times for the relevant service;

(b) the availability of sufficient independent and NHS providers to make genuine choice meaningful; and

(c) the desirability of ensuring access to choice for patients in all parts of England, including in rural and deprived areas.

(6) The Secretary of State must publish, and lay before Parliament, within 12 months of the date on which this Act is passed, a statement setting out—

(a) the out-of-hospital services for which choice obligations under subsection (2) will initially apply;

(b) the timetable for extending the choice obligation to further services; and

(c) the support that will be made available to patients, in particular those with limited digital access or literacy, to exercise the choices to which they are entitled under this section.

(7) The Secretary of State must review and update the statement required by subsection (6) at intervals of not more than two years.”

This amendment strengthens the new patient choice duty inserted by Clause 5 from a general aspiration into a specific, enforceable right to choose between providers for out-of-hospital services.

[The Chair]

With this it will be convenient to discuss clause stand part.

[Dr Johnson]

This group is about how patients can exercise choice. When the national health service was founded in 1948, patients could select their own GP, but it was difficult to change things and exercise choice elsewhere in the system. The health service has come a long way since then. Successive Governments believed that they could make state institutions more responsive by treating the public, to some extent, like customers. Today, patients can choose their GP, hospital, consultant and different types of end-of-life care and mental health service, but choice is about more than just selecting among providers.

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[Gregory Stafford]

I do not recognise the characterisation that the hon. Gentleman puts forward. He is essentially saying that, by allowing the private sector to carry out operations and procedures, we are somehow making the NHS unsustainable. The follow-on from that logic is that we remove all private sector providers and practice so that every single doctor, nurse and therapist is working in the NHS. I do not think that he is arguing for that situation, but it is the logical progression of his argument.

[Dr Johnson]

When I met surgeons, they said that one reason they like working in elective independent sector hospitals is that they can do more operations on a given day. The shadow Secretary of State visited a provider of cataract treatment yesterday. It is able to perform more treatments on a given day, partly for organisational reasons. The NHS, which is quite frustrating for surgeons, could learn from that. Does my hon. Friend agree?

[Gregory Stafford]

My hon. Friend is absolutely correct. I do not want to go down the cataracts route, but she and the hon. Member for Bury St Edmunds and Stowmarket have both mentioned them. Clearly, cataracts are a relatively low-complexity, high-volume type of operation. My hon. Friend is absolutely right to say that some providers can do five or six operations per list, while other places are doing two or three. That is often about the private sector being able to move more quickly, which is obviously better for patients, as well as for clinicians, who want to do the surgery that they have trained for.

Unlike the hon. Member for Bury St Edmunds and Stowmarket, I think that competition can play an important role in driving improvement. When providers must attract and retain patients, they have a stronger incentive to deliver timely, high-quality services, and to innovate in how they provide care. In that sense, competition is not an end in itself but a means of improving outcomes and responsiveness for patients. If both sides of the Committee support clause 5, because we are interested in choice and competition, amendment 59 is the logical extension of that.

The amendment is also clear about where the new obligation choices would apply. It covers a range of out-of-hospital services, including diagnostics, audiology, hearing-aid care, dietetics, physiotherapy, ambulatory cardiac monitoring and so on. By clearly defining the services in scope, it provides a realistic and workable road map for implementation.

As I said, the amendment is not about ideology—I think we all agree about choice and competition—but about ensuring that patients receive timely care and have a meaningful choice about where that care is delivered. By fostering healthy competition, making full use of the capacity in the system and putting patients at the centre of the decision-making process, it offers a practical route to improving access and raising standards of care. For those reasons, I support it and commend it to the Committee.

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Promoting innovation

[Dr Johnson]

I beg to move amendment 58, clause 6, page 4, line 10, leave out from “promote” to end of line 11 and insert—

“(a) innovation in the provision of health services and in the arrangements made for their provision;

(b) take steps to ensure the timely adoption and spread of clinically effective innovations across the health service in England;

(c) identify and seek to remove barriers to the uptake of innovation by NHS bodies, including procurement barriers, regulatory barriers and cultural barriers to change;

(d) promote access to innovation so that patients in all parts of England, and patients from all socioeconomic backgrounds, have equivalent access to effective new technologies, medicines and care models; and

(e) have regard to the economic and industrial benefits to the United Kingdom of developing and deploying healthcare innovation in the NHS.”

This amendment would further define the meaning of promoting innovation in health services in England.

[The Chair]

With this it will be convenient to discuss clause stand part.

[Dr Johnson]

In healthcare, as in many parts of life, innovation is the way in which new ideas, products and services are developed to solve problems and improve patient outcomes. Here, the entire country has a record to be proud of that goes back a long time. Dr John Preece, a GP and research fellow at the University of Exeter, was the first general practitioner to use a computer in a patient consultation. He co-designed a model with IBM in 1969, and his work led to the creation of the electronic patient record, the forerunner of the electronic patient record that we will discuss later. Innovators working with NHS England have also been seeking to reduce single-use plastic in gastrointestinal procedures, improving outcomes for haemodialysis patients, as well as improving the environment.

--- Later in debate ---

[Peter Prinsley]

Does the shadow Minister accept that, in order to encourage innovation within the health service, we need to do whatever we can to support clinical academics? It is within the academic departments of universities, where people are working in hospitals and teaching in medical schools, that we see the most fruitful innovations.

[Dr Johnson]

The hon. Gentleman is right, but there are pressures and challenges for clinical academics, which he will be aware of. I am sure the Minister, in summing up, will tell us what she is doing about those.

We need to support innovation in all parts of the health service, not just in university hospitals. One of my concerns is that there has been a drive towards a hub and spoke model. There are good reasons for that, and there have been some good outcomes for patient care, but in some cases it restricts innovation in the peripheral parts of the model; it can disincentivise innovation and make it more difficult. We need to consider how we support innovation in all areas of the NHS.

[Helen Morgan]

One of the challenges of recruiting staff in Shropshire relates to exactly that point: some areas of the health service are perhaps less exciting to work in than others. Ensuring that innovation is driven across every NHS site and every region will help us understand the recruitment and retention problems that have plagued some of the country’s more rural areas.

[Dr Johnson]

The hon. Lady is absolutely right. When I was a very junior doctor, whether one wanted to work in a small hospital in the countryside or a large teaching hospital in a big city mostly related to whether one wanted to study a specialist, narrow field of medicine or a wider, broader field of medicine with a variety of different conditions. During my career, I have seen consultants make choices that meant they had to move from their district general hospital to a teaching hospital in order to make progress—in one case, a consultant was told he would not get a professorship unless he moved. The hon. Lady is right: we need to carefully consider how we support innovation.

I have concerns with the clause as it is drafted. Section 13K of the NHS Act 2006 gave NHS England the power to award prizes in support of innovation. Clause 6 ensures the Secretary of State has that power, but there is a big difference between an arm’s length body of technocrats awarding prizes and a political office holder awarding prizes, because then the prizes come out of taxpayers’ money and Governments are particularly short of that—not because they are not taking higher rates of tax, but because they are squeezing the economy.

There is a risk that those awards, and funding for innovation more broadly, become exposed to political cycles. When Governments face a fiscal straitjacket, Ministers are often quick to slash discretionary spending, even though it provides a long-term return on investment. There is also a risk that prizes will be awarded on the basis of who shouts loudest. Certain charities will want the Government to focus on awarding innovations in cancer care, for example; some unions will want the Government to focus on awarding innovators who achieve greater equity in service delivery. There is little doubt that Ministers will have a tough time batting away lobbyists calling for more funding to incentivise this or that type of innovation.

Clause 6 also gives the Secretary of State the power to set up a committee to provide advice on awarding prizes. It is right that the Health Secretary should solicit expert advice when determining which trusts, teams or individuals deserve incentive payments, but does that require the power to set up what is effectively a whole new quango? The Government created more than 25 arm’s length bodies and advisory councils in their first six months. Does the Secretary of State require the power to pay members of the advisory committee when there are many experts in their field who can give their time charitably? I notice there is no requirement for any prize committee to include the chief scientific officer or representatives from ICBs. It is ultimately an unchecked spending power.

[Gregory Stafford]

What my hon. Friend describes is the real nub of the Bill. If we are to abolish NHS England and move most of its functions to the ICB level or to the Department of Health under a Secretary of State, it would be utter madness for us to, at best, move one set of bureaucrats from NHS England to the Department of Health and therefore gain no extra efficiency, or at worst, as seems to be the case in this clause, not only transfer the NHS England bureaucrats, but create a whole new set of bureaucrats and committees to continue the functions already performed under NHS England.

We need to understand whether the Bill is really about making our NHS more efficient by removing levels of bureaucracy, as was the stated intent of the Minister and the previous Secretary of State, or whether it is simply a political power grab where we keep all the bureaucrats and the inefficiency of the current system.

[Dr Johnson]

My hon. Friend, as ever, puts things very succinctly. Much of what is said about the Bill is different from what it seems to mean in practice. We have heard the Government talk about the decentralisation of power so decisions are made locally, but in the oral evidence session, even the union rep said that the Bill is more of a centralisation of power. I agree that creating new bureaucracy to replace old bureaucracy—particularly if that involves redundancies—does not help to save money or to make the system more efficient.

I tabled amendment 58 to make the duty on innovation more robust. It would make clause 6 specifically require the Secretary of State to promote innovation in the provision of services, ensure that innovations are spread and adopted across the NHS, tackle barriers to innovation and consider the wider economic benefits of innovation. That is important, because when we talk to people in the life sciences industry, they tell us that one of the biggest challenges is the roll-out of innovation. They can develop innovations in the UK, but it can take a long time to get them on to the shop floor, which is a disincentive to innovating in the United Kingdom. That process needs to move more quickly.

As currently drafted, the clause does not make it clear what innovation is for or whom it is meant to benefit. Amendment 58 would make it clear that innovation should be to benefit patients, no matter their location or socioeconomic status. I welcome the principle of keeping innovation on the statute book, but innovation is an organic process, and it does not begin in the Department of Health and Social Care or in NHS England—that is a fundamental principle that I think the Government fail to understand across many areas. Innovation begins with the frontline workers: the scientists, the technologists and the people who have ideas about better ways to care for patients. I am encouraged that the Minister understands that.

The Government’s vision for ICBs is that they will have more responsibility and more freedom to innovate—although we will discuss whether the legislation actually delivers that later in the Committee’s consideration—and I hope that vision extends to other areas of health policy. The clause is not disagreeable, but it must be made more robust. If Committee members agree, I hope they will support amendment 58.

[The Chair]

I gently suggest to all Committee members that it would help me tremendously if they could stand at the beginning of the debate on a group if they wish to be called.

--- Later in debate ---

[Dr Johnson]

My hon. Friend is describing something a little like “Dragons’ Den”, which is a very good TV programme—perhaps it will be televised or livestreamed. How will the Government ensure that there is no conflict of interest?

[Gregory Stafford]

My hon. Friend’s point is correct. There is so little detail in the clause about how these prizes will be awarded and how the committee that will award them will be set up that we have no idea how conflicts of interest will be dealt with. That is another reason that the Minister needs to explain to the Committee how this is going to work. My hon. Friend mentions “Dragons’ Den”. I see her as the Deborah Meaden of our Committee, so I look forward to seeing that play out—I will not say what that makes me.

What I see from amendment 58, tabled by my hon. Friend the Member for Sleaford and North Hykeham— I hope I am not misrepresenting her—is once again an attempt to codify, clarify and strengthen what is fairly woolly wording within the Bill. In particular, her amendment rightly emphasises the importance of

“timely adoption and spread of clinically effective innovations”.

Timeliness is so important to patients. We need innovation quickly. Again, it worries me that the prizes could be given for innovations that could have happened weeks, months, years or decades ago, according to the wording. We also need to ensure that innovation is not in isolated pockets, either in terms of geography or type of service. We need something that is consistently delivered across the healthcare system.

By highlighting the need to address things such as procurement, the regulatory sector and cultural barriers, my hon. Friend’s amendment would support a more proactive and enabling environment for innovation to flourish, not one that shuts it down, as some Labour Members have suggested. Crucially, paragraph (d) of the amendment represents a significant and commendable commitment to fairness and inclusion by prioritising equal access to new technologies, medicines and models of care regardless of geography or socioeconomic background. It would help to tackle long-standing inequalities and move decisively towards ending the postcode lottery that we often see in care quality.

The focus of the amendment would ensure that innovation benefits all patients, not just those in the most advantaged areas. It would ensure that rural and coastal communities are aligned with the urban. As someone who represents a semi-rural seat, I see those inequalities in service delivery, quality of care and innovation. The large towns in my constituency receive far more money and get far better services than the surrounding villages.

I have many concerns about the clause as it currently stands, and I hope that the Minister will be able to clarify some of the Opposition’s questions. I entirely endorse amendment 58.

[Karin Smyth]

I am grateful to hon. Members for bringing this discussion to the Committee. We heard about the excitement in our constituencies around innovation—my hon. Friend the Member for Blaydon and Consett mentioned Newcastle University at the start and the hon. Member for Sleaford and North Hykeham mentioned her visit to Imperial College. Those visits are inspiring. Other universities and centres of excellence are available, but they made the case for why this is so important to the Government’s approach to innovation. I will talk about that and then turn to the amendment.

The Government are fully committed to innovation. It is absolutely central to our ambitious priorities to digitise health and care, support prevention and early diagnosis, and enable a shift to neighbourhood care, to growth in our economy, and to regaining our place in the world as a centre for innovation, which was lost under the Conservatives over those 14 years. That is why clause 6 places a clear duty on the Secretary of State to promote innovation in the provision of health services, including in how services are arranged and delivered.

The clause also incorporates the Secretary of State’s existing power to incentivise innovation and research through the payment of prizes, as we have discussed. That is a flexible tool that will allow him to stimulate breakthrough ideas and reward innovation across the life cycle, including an early-stage report.

On some issues that have been raised, the Conservative party knows that Ministers have to act reasonably as this transfers from NHS England, and we would obviously want to tailor a committee to the matter in question, including membership. The clause will allow that flexibility. The equivalent duty was on NHS England; I understand that it has not actually been used over the past five years, but it was previously suggested as a way of promoting innovation.

In practical terms, the Secretary of State already supports innovation in a number of ways, for example through the work of the Health Innovation Network, supporting workforce developments in schemes such as the clinical entrepreneur programme and providing funding support for developing and evaluating promising innovations.

[Dr Johnson]

The Minister talked about the flexibility of the committee, and my hon. Friend the Member for Farnham and Bordon explained why it is helpful to have some direction. Could the Minister explain why there is no stipulation for the chief medical officer or the chief scientific officer to be part of the committee?

[Karin Smyth]

I am happy to come back to the hon. Lady if I am not correct in this, or if there is another reason, but in the existing duty and under NHS England, the committee’s membership needs to reflect the matter in the question. If there is anything to add to that, I will certainly come back to her. We are also committed to spending more on innovation, raising the NICE threshold to ensure that patients have access to more innovative medicines on the NHS. That is action, not just words.

The Government commend the intent behind the amendment tabled by the hon. Lady, and she spoke well about that. As a clinician, I recognise her support for innovation, but we recognise that barriers remain to the systematic spread of innovation. That is a long-term problem that existed under previous Governments as well, and we seek to rectify it. The ministerial foreword to the “Life Science Sector Plan” published last year says:

“We are clear-eyed about the challenges. For too long, the journey from discovery to delivery has been too slow, too fragmented, and too often held back by outdated systems.”

That is why we need to remove barriers at every stage of the journey; however, the amendment is the wrong way to do that.

The experience of supporting innovation in the NHS suggests that we need flexibility in our approach to tackle emerging barriers as they arise. Specifying several areas of focus in the Bill would limit that flexibility; those are better set out in published strategies and guidance, which is what we are doing. The amendment could also cause unintended consequences. It would create a one-size-fits-all approach, requiring all of England to have equivalent access to innovations. While tackling unwarranted variation is of course vital, we should continue our focus on providing access to innovation that best meets local needs.

Instead of over-defining what we mean by innovation in legislation, we are taking practical measures to drive it on the ground. We are already building the 10-year health plan and the life sciences sector plan to deliver an ambitious set of actions, which address the areas raised by the amendment including procurement, aligned regulation and the alignment of our NHS innovation policy with sector growth policy. That echoes our approach elsewhere in the Bill of devolving power to local levels and giving more opportunity to systems and organisations to innovate, and more agency to use their resources to do so.

The NHS has a strong record of developing and adopting new treatments, technologies and models of care. The clause will build on that record, signalling the Secretary of State’s clear commitment to promoting innovation, and it will do so in a flexible way that will allow us to respond to challenges as they emerge. For that reason, I ask the hon. Member for Sleaford and North Hykeham to withdraw her amendment, and I commend the clause the Committee.

Question put, That the amendment be made.

--- Later in debate ---

[Sojan Joseph (Ashford) (Lab)]

I rise to support clause 7 and amendment 33, tabled by my hon. Friend the Member for Worthing West. Having worked in the NHS for many years, I have seen that education and training, especially mandatory training, is absolutely necessary. Some may argue that health staff have too much training, particularly mandatory training, but this amendment specifically concerns training

“in the wider determinants of health such as housing standards, exposure to air pollution, occupational risk, and use of harmful substances like tobacco.”

We may have staff, especially those working in mental health, who have training in some of those areas, but staff in A&E, where patients first present, may not have that training, and may be missing that curiosity. We have heard many incidents involving families living in mouldy houses or people exposed to air pollution. It is important that staff have the curiosity to consider where a patient has come from when they turn up at A&E, or, when planning a discharge, where they are being discharged to.

In the last few years, we have seen many internationally trained healthcare workers join our health sector who may not be familiar with the social and housing situation in this country. Whether this is to be a part of their initial training as nurses or doctors, or through mandatory training at work, the amendment is important because it could help to prevent illnesses and identify them earlier through professional curiosity. I support amendment 33.

[Dr Johnson]

I declare an interest as a member of the NHS workforce and an NHS consultant paediatrician. In England, around one in every 17 working people is employed by the national health service. That is quite a shocking statistic. It is the largest employer in the country and, indeed, in Europe. It has grown significantly over time, in part because the needs of the population have changed. Life expectancy is longer, which is something to be cherished—that is a good thing—but it brings challenges to the health service, as people are more likely to be living with multiple chronic conditions rather than easily treatable ailments. They require more tests, medicines and clinical care. Demographic change requires a larger NHS workforce, particularly in secondary care.

The previous Conservative Government not only recognised the scale of that challenge but took swift action to increase staffing levels across the board, adding more than 42,000 doctors and 55,000 nurses, health visitors and midwives. Conservative Ministers also supported the pipeline responsible for producing the next generation of medical practitioners. They funded 1,500 additional medical school places and opened five new medical schools, including in Sunderland, Lancashire, Chelmsford and Canterbury, and one just outside my constituency in Lincoln. Emergency care became the fastest-growing specialty, with the number of emergency care doctors doubling. That is what support for the NHS workforce looks like.

Conservative investments in the workforce helped to improve survival rates for cancer, increase the number of GP appointments and deliver the fastest vaccine roll-out in Europe. Under existing legislation, the Secretary of State has a responsibility to ensure that there is an effective system for planning and delivering education and training to current and potential staff. Health Education England has been rolled into NHS England, so it is ultimately NHS England that has the duty to ensure sufficient and appropriately trained staff to meet NHS workforce needs. Now that NHS England is to be abolished, it is right that this duty is to be given to the Secretary of State through clause 7, although to some extent it is a statement of the obvious that that is part of his job.

The job of members of this Committee is to improve the Bill, not just wave it through, and that means recognising that the existing legislation had some inadequacies. Clause 7 states:

“The Secretary of State must exercise functions…with a view to ensuring”

several things about the workforce. It is not a cast-iron requirement; the Secretary of State must just think about it, but actually he should not just think about his job; he should get on with it. I have a bit of a bee in my bonnet about legislation that creates obligations that are easy to proclaim and that are virtuous but are difficult to measure. Such legislation makes legislators feel good about themselves because they are writing nice things into legislation, but they are not really robust. What does

“sufficient people with appropriate education”

mean? What is “sufficient”?

One reason concerns are particularly acute is the Government’s shambolic record on workforce planning. They came to power saying that they had a plan, but their workforce plan has still not been published, almost two years since they came into office. I heard the Minister say “imminently”, but I had a written answer last week, I think, saying “imminently”. I appreciate that “imminently” is probably better than “soon”, but what does it really mean, and how soon can we expect the plan to be published? Does she mean that it is coming this week or next? Can she guarantee that it will be published before the summer recess? Has the Prime Minister’s resignation yesterday put all this up in the air once again?

The Royal College of Radiologists has said that the shortfall in clinical radiologists has grown from 29% to 32% since 2024, and the Royal College of Nursing has released data showing that the growth in the nursing workforce slowed last year to its lowest level in eight years. Newly qualified midwives are finding themselves with no jobs to go to in the health service, despite the fact that there is a maternity staffing crisis in some areas. Will the Minister explain the reason for the delay? She said earlier in this sitting that it was not NHS England, but what is causing the delay?

We were told that stakeholders wanted more time to have conversations, test ideas and work together. One would think that after the many months of deliberation, Ministers would have put together an exceptional workforce plan, but the Royal College of Nursing, the British Medical Association, of which I am a member, Unite the union and several other organisations wrote to the Health Secretary earlier this month to urge for the plan, which they have but which has not been published, to be “paused”, because they are

“concerned that the current direction falls significantly short of the scale of workforce growth required to meet patient need and relies too heavily on assumptions about the current state of NHS services, productivity and technology that are not borne out of frontline experience.”

I recently tabled a question asking who had been given advanced sight of the workforce plan, and I received confirmation that the royal colleges and unions have been involved. As I mentioned, I am a member of the Royal College of Paediatrics and Child Health. We now have a situation where a workforce plan is being delayed, and it has been brought before other organisations for discussion rather than elected Members of this House. It is taking far too long. In the meantime, things are going backwards. It is simply not good enough. Ministers are now about to roll out a plan that has mortified seemingly everyone who has seen it, while expecting members of the Committee to rubber-stamp a rather flimsy legal duty.

In May, the Financial Times reported that plans drawn up under this Government would see recruitment cut back. The article reads:

“A workforce plan being finalised by health officials says the NHS in England will have to use technology to get by with hundreds of thousands fewer staff than envisaged under the previous Conservative government.”

Is that clinical staff? Are we going to have fewer doctors? It is not clear because we have not seen the plan and it has not been published. A draft of the plan seen by the newspaper said that the NHS

“does not need anything like the…numbers…set out in its 2023 workforce plan.’

Will the Minister confirm whether those press reports are accurate? She previously said that her plan

“will ensure that the NHS has the right people in the right places with the right skills for patients when they need them”.—[Official Report, 13 January 2026; Vol. 778, c. 737-738.]

Does that mean fewer people and more AI?

Health Bill (Fifth sitting)

Caroline Johnson Excerpts

Committee stage
Tuesday 23rd June 2026 Public Bill Committees

[The Chair]

I remind the Committee that with this we are discussing the following:

Amendment 50, in clause 7, page 4, line 32, at end insert—

“(4) After subsection (2) insert—

‘(2A) The Secretary of State must publish independently audited forecasts of the NHS’s workforce needs every five years.’”

This amendment would require the Secretary of State to publish independently audited forecasts of the NHS’s staffing needs every five years.

Amendment 54, in clause 7, page 4, line 32, at end insert—

“(4) The Secretary of State must exercise functions under this section with a view to ensuring that managers in the NHS, who have appropriate clinical training, must also undertake clinical care.

(5) The Secretary of State must record the proportion of direct clinical care provided by those with professional qualifications both in terms of the proportion of their areas and full time equivalent by pay grade, and the Secretary of State must increase the proportion.”

This amendment would require the Secretary of State to ensure that NHS managers who are clinically trained must continue to undertake clinical care.

Clause stand part.

New clause 44—Medical training places—

“The Secretary of State must double the number of medical school training places to 15,000 by 2031-32.”

This new clause would put a duty on the Secretary of State to double the number of medical school training places.

New clause 45—Data collection: clinically trained staff—

“(1) The Secretary of State must collect and publish data on the numbers and proportion of NHS staff are qualified to deliver nursing and clinical care who delivering nursing care, or clinical care of any kind, and those who are not.

(2) Information under subsection (1) must be collected according to HCAS pay scales.

(3) Information under subsection (1) must include numbers of nursing and midwifery staff.

(4) Information under subsection (1) must be published quarterly.

(5) The NHS and ICBs are under a duty to comply with any requests from the Secretary of State for data for this purpose.

(6) Information under subsection (1) must include the proportion of time spent delivering clinical care as a proportion of the individual’s total working hours.”

This new clause would require the Secretary of State to collect and publish data on the numbers and proportion of clinically qualified staff who are delivering clinical care, broken down by HCAS pay band.

[Dr Caroline Johnson (Sleaford and North Hykeham) (Con)]

Before the lunch break I was saying that, in essence, clause 7 states what the Secretary of State’s job is. It moves the function of planning the workforce from NHS England to the Secretary of State, which is a reasonable thing to do. I talked about the previous Government’s record on opening new medical schools and how that has helped with the number of clinical staff.

We also talked about workforce planning. The Government are due to produce a workforce plan, but it is not clear when it is due to come out. It was due to come out at the end of last year, but it did not; it was then due to come out in the spring, but now it is the summer. Given the Prime Minister’s resignation, it is not at all clear when it will come out. Will the Minister let us know whether it will come out before the summer recess, this week or whenever?

I quoted some of the concerns of the Royal College of Nursing, the British Medical Association, of which I am a member, and others. Those concerns include the workforce plan. Those organisations have seen what we have not seen, so they have been asked to comment on something that we have yet to see. That brings me to new clause 44, which is in my name.

Before the general election, Labour promised that it would double the number of medical school places. The now Chancellor of the Exchequer promised to double the number of medical school training places, as did the now Secretary of State for Science, Innovation and Technology. Once the general election had passed and Labour was in government, the promise was reiterated. At oral questions in October 2024, the now former Health Secretary said:

“This Government are committed, as we were in opposition, to doubling the number of medical school places”.—[Official Report, 15 October 2024; Vol. 754, c. 683.]—

but there has not really been any progress.

During a debate this year on the junior doctors’ foundation programme, I asked the Minister for Care whether the Government’s intention was still to honour that pledge. He said:

“Yes, that is the Government’s intention.”—[Official Report, 22 April 2026; Vol. 784, c. 133WH.]—

only to later submit a written correction stating that the Government had never committed to doing so. Are they going to, or not? It is not clear.

Labour promised to double the number of medical school places, but now that pledge appears to have been airbrushed out of history. Can the Minister please explain why she and her colleagues deemed the workforce pledge essential before the election but not after it? Can she tell us whether it is Government policy? In essence, my new clause 44 asks Members on the Government Benches to vote for what they promised before the election and have promised since.

New clause 44 is very simple: it stipulates that the Secretary of State must double the number of medical school training places by 2031-32. That is what Labour promised, so it should be fairly easy for Labour Members to vote for it. I hope that the Committee will support the new clause, which only requires Ministers to do what their party promised before it came into government.

If the Government are not keen on committing to clear targets, they can at least commit to full scrutiny of their workforce plans. Of course, there is a risk that the House has been misled. Either the promise was made or it was not. The Minister for Care said that it was promised and then submitted a written correction to say that that was inaccurate and that it was never Government policy, but if it has been stated by the Secretary of State at the Dispatch Box, representing the Government, then it is Government policy. Can the Minister help to clarify that point? If the House has been misled by either her former boss or the Minister for Care, perhaps she can clear that up for us. Perhaps the vote will help.

[Peter Prinsley (Bury St Edmunds and Stowmarket) (Lab)]

Does the shadow Minister agree that if we doubled the number of medical students, we would simply not be able to accommodate those people as young doctors unless we also doubled the number of training places? After five or six years, those medical students become young doctors. If we are to correct any problem with the medical workforce, it is insufficient to simply state that we will double the number of medical students.

[Dr Johnson]

The hon. Gentleman is right. When all the new doctors that the Government have promised have been trained, they will need jobs and postgraduate medical training, and there are issues with that. Nevertheless, the Government asked the public to vote for them on the basis that they would double the number of medical school places. Many of the hon. Gentleman’s colleagues produced little videos to that effect, which can be viewed on Twitter. They toured the newsrooms saying, “Please vote for us, we’re going to double the number of medical school places.” They suggested that there would be a revolution in Government to make sure that there were enough doctors. This is important—more doctors would help.

All new clause 44 does is ask the Government to commit to doing what they have said that they will do—or to say that they will not. Either way, we have had the Secretary of State saying one thing and a Minister saying the opposite and then correcting it, so we need clarity. The public deserve that. The Minister herself said that they would double the number of medical school places so that we have the doctors that our NHS needs. If they do not double the number of medical school places, it follows that they will not have the number of doctors that the NHS needs. Presumably that is in their workforce plan, but it needs to be cleared up.

Amendment 50 would put a duty on the Secretary of State to publish independently audited forecasts of the NHS workforce every five years. The logic is straightforward: if the Government believe that their plans are sufficient, they can be compared to an impartial assessment of the workforce. The previous Government published a workforce plan in 2023, setting out how to tackle existing and future workforce challenges over several years. That included doubling the number of medical school places. Yet three years later, this Government are on course for a new plan that is reportedly far less ambitious—we will find out in a minute.

The workforce affects whether patients can be seen on time, maternity wards are safely staffed and elderly patients get the dignity they deserve. It is the difference between the NHS meeting the challenge of an ageing population or slipping into decline. If Labour Members are confident that the Minister’s workforce planning is robust, I expect that they will support my amendment, which requires an independently audited forecast. If they are not willing to support it, that suggests that they know this Government cannot be trusted to deliver the workforce that patients need.

Amendment 54 and new clause 45 were also tabled in my name. Amendment 54 would require the Secretary of State to look at the amount of clinical work that NHS managers undertake. As a clinician, I have increasingly noticed that highly qualified clinical practitioners come in, become the person on the ward who can be relied on, and then go off because they get promoted to a nine-to-five job that is easier and pays more, but does not deliver clinical care.

The chief medical officer, for example, still delivers clinical care, and the amendment probes the Government to consider how many nurses and clinicians in hospitals are delivering clinical care. I asked that in written questions, and the Government did not know the answer. It is materially important information, particularly when looking at the Dash report, which talks about an explosion in the number of people who are clinically trained but not providing clinical work—instead, they are creating guidelines and monitoring whether other clinicians are doing the work. If more of those people were engaged in clinical activity, that might improve the quality of both the guidelines and care, because more junior staff would have senior staff around to help them.

[Sojan Joseph (Ashford) (Lab)]

I strongly support the argument that clinical staff, even if they progress into a senior role, should carry out some sort of clinical practice. Does the hon. Lady agree that that is what went wrong over the past few years, especially when NHS England was created? Many senior clinicians who were moved into management posts had no contact with clinical areas. That is what this Government are trying to fix by abolishing NHS England.

[Dr Johnson]

I am talking predominantly about clinicians working in trusts who are trained and very experienced, but then move to work in the same trust but in a more managerial role that does not involve clinical care. I am not saying that every single person needs to be delivering clinical care—there may be exceptions, of course; people do have career changes—but I encourage the Government to reflect on the number of posts being created that take people away from the clinical arena, and on the effect that that has. When the Minister is presented with the number of nursing or midwifery-qualified staff working in a particular department, that may not reflect the number who are delivering clinical care and, by their own admission, the Government do not know which is which.

Amendment 33 would place a duty on the Secretary of State to ensure that the workforce is trained on the wider determinants of health, such as housing standards, air pollution and the use of harmful substances. In my many years as a paediatrician, I have yet to meet a nurse, doctor, surgeon, porter or care co-ordinator who does not know that damp and mould are bad for people’s health, and I have yet to meet a fellow employee who does not know that air pollution causes asthma, or that tobacco use increases the risk of chronic obstructive pulmonary disease, cancer and a whole host of other ailments.

Considering the many pressures on NHS workers, I do not believe that mandating a new programme on health determinants is a good use of time. I fear that it is rooted in the agenda of creating more and more mandatory training, and I would actually encourage the Minister to look at rationalising mandatory training to that which is absolutely necessary. Control of the curriculum for such staff is dealt with separately, so I object to amendment 33.

[Joe Robertson (Isle of Wight East) (Con)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Sir Roger. Clause 7 says—I abbreviate:

“The Secretary of State must exercise functions…with a view to ensuring that…there are sufficient people with appropriate education and training to meet the workforce needs of the health service, and…there is an effective system in place for the planning and delivery of education and training of people to meet those needs.”

That is all very nice—who couldn’t agree with that?—but amendment 50, tabled by the shadow Minister, would add a means by which the public, in the interests of transparency, could make an assessment of that by requiring the Secretary of State to publish independently audited forecasts of the NHS’s workforce needs every five years. That seems entirely sensible, it is something that I am sure any Government would want to do anyway, and it would add meaning, assessment and transparency to what is already in the Bill.

New clauses 44 and 45 would do something similar in relation to the number of medical school places. As the shadow Minister said in response to an intervention, new clause 44 seeks to do only what the Government have already said they want to do. Hopefully, the Minister can give us some clarity on whether that is still the Government’s intention and, if it is, what aversion she has to including it in the Bill.

Separately, new clause 45 seeks to establish a benchmark of data collection. Of course, duties and requirements placed on a Secretary of State, such as those in clause 7, can be delivered only if we start with the proper collection of data and, in the interests of transparency, publish it. For that reason, I also support new clause 45.

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[Karin Smyth]

Clause 8 will give the Secretary of State the power to direct integrated care boards to exercise his or her functions. This power, similar to that currently employed by NHS England, will promote subsidiarity by enabling such functions to be delivered at the lowest appropriate level. The clause builds on the existing section 7B of the National Health Service Act 2006, which allows the Secretary of State to direct ICBs but only in respect of public health functions.

With our plans to abolish NHS England, the Secretary of State will again have broad powers and responsibility relating to the health service, and so this power encompasses a wider range of functions. Unlike the delegated frameworks set out under sections 65Z5 and 75 of the 2006 Act, which are entered into voluntarily, any integrated care board directed under this power would be obliged to carry out the stated functions.

I reassure the Committee that, while the ICB will be legally responsible for how it discharges a function, overall accountability will remain with the Secretary of State. Furthermore, the Secretary of State might also use directions to place restrictions on the onward delegation of any functions, preventing delegation where it may be inappropriate. Finally, any directions must be published, ensuring transparency and allowing proper accountability.

This measure will empower the Secretary of State to assign functions to ICBs where most appropriate. It aligns with and facilitates our broader direction of travel towards flexibly planned and delivered local services. I therefore commend the clause to the Committee.

[Dr Johnson]

Clause 8 is essentially about the control that the Secretary of State has over ICBs. When we discussed the clause abolishing NHS England, we talked a lot about the balance between democratic accountability on the one hand and independence from political interference on the other.

The Government suggest that the Bill is a decentralising Bill. What this clause does is essentially to recentralise by default. As the Minister has just said, the Secretary of State can change what the ICB is doing if they think that it is inappropriate. What does “inappropriate” mean exactly, and how will that power be used? It may be used very infrequently—perhaps the current and previous Secretaries of State think that the power would be used infrequently—but equally it could be used in response to considerable pressure from MPs, lobbyists and campaign groups. Instead of issuing directions sparingly, we may end up in a position where the Secretary of State is issuing day-to-day instructions.

The Government want ICBs to take greater responsibility for commissioning decisions, but then they want to be able to undermine them by direction from the Health Secretary. The Health Secretary will never have as good a grasp of the situation in the local geographic area as local leaders, but he has the power to tell them what to do and issue blanket instructions with different characteristics. That will be inherently inefficient. ICB leaders will be under pressure, knowing that if they make a particular decision they can be removed or be told to do something different. They have the job and they have the power, but they haven’t really—all at the same time.

There is also the plan, as the Minister outlined, to make directions something that the Government publish. The clause says that directions must be published by the Secretary of State, but only

“as soon as reasonably practicable”.

The intention behind requiring the prompt publication of directions is to reduce the surface area for back-room pressures, but the lack of a clear timeframe makes it rather a weak measure.

We currently have a Government who seem open to greater use of the private sector, whether in financing projects or in delivering out-patient care. Well, our Prime Minister resigned yesterday, and there is no guarantee that the Government of the right hon. Member for Makerfield (Andy Burnham) will take the same approach. Will the Minister confirm whether the powers in clause 8 could be used by a Health Secretary to instruct ICBs to stop using a specific type of provider?

I would not dispute the idea that the Secretary of State needs to be able to exercise some control over the health service now that NHS England is being abolished, but the clause seems contrary to the Government’s stated vision for health management. I am not sure whether it is in the best interests of patients.

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[Karin Smyth]

I recognise that this is a subject of some debate; we may discuss it further when we come to the part of the Bill on ICBs. The abolition of NHS England and transferring all its functions to one body has a consequence, which is that the Secretary of State retains that accountability and power. We are keen to have that power clear but flexible in order to empower local systems. That remains the intent.

The power is necessary for the Secretary of State to update national commissioning standards, for example. The ICBs will have wider roles as strategic commissioners. We expect them to take on formal responsibility for a number of services delegated by NHS England. That allows us to issue a common set of commissioning standards, on the point made by the hon. Member for Farnham and Bordon about variability in different places. There need to be common standards across the piece: eligibility criteria, the treatments the provider should use, and national reporting requirements. ICBs having those standards means that there will be a reduction in unwarranted variation in some of these events.

The shadow Minister raised the timetable. The Opposition will recognise that there needs to be flexibility for the Secretary of State and Ministers to respond to unforeseen or changing events. That is why it is purposely broad, because the range of events that can impact the NHS is clearly very broad. We cannot predict the future.

The hon. Member for Farnham and Bordon said that the Bill needs to deal with all these problems. The Bill needs to give enough flexibility to the system and devolve as much power to the system. The Bill needs to make sure that the powers are in the right place, but it is for the local systems to respond to their local needs within that framework. They will be held accountable, for example through the NHS oversight framework and through ICBs’ normal accountability frameworks.

[Dr Johnson]

The Minister is talking about flexibility. I understand that if a Minister is responding to an unforeseen circumstance, he or she may be very busy, but where a direction has been made, it should not take very long for a member of staff to publish it, because it will already have been written and sent. I understand that a Minister might take a day or so to sign it off because they are so busy, but it should not take months. The addition of a deadline is therefore not an unreasonable request.

[Karin Smyth]

With due respect to the hon. Lady, it is not a matter of the Minister being busy, whether that is me or anybody else. It is about the operational running of a £200 billion organisation with 1.5 million staff treating millions of people every day. I am sure we all remember from our own experience incidents and unforeseen events that have happened in the local system, and sometimes very tragic events that have required the Secretary of State to take action. We are trying not to increase the number of reports and documentation and to rid the system of bureaucracy by putting something out in that timeline.

[Dr Johnson]

Will the Minister give way on that point?

[Karin Smyth]

No, I have finished.

Question put and agreed to.

Clause 8 accordingly ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clause 9

Secretary of State’s power to provide assistance

Question proposed, That the clause stand part of the Bill.

[Karin Smyth]

Clause 9, which will insert new section 12DA into the National Health Service Act 2006, will give the Secretary of State a clear statutory duty to provide financial, staffing or other practical assistance in connection with the health service. The power may be used to support persons providing, or proposing to provide, services as part of the health service or which are beneficial to the interests of the health service. It may also be used to support public authorities where the assistance relates to education or training for people employed, or considering becoming employed, in activities connected with the provision of health services. The assistance may include financial assistance, the services of civil servants or other resources of the Secretary of State, and it may be provided on agreed terms, including terms about payments by or to the Secretary of State.

The clause will support the wider purpose of the Bill by enabling a small centre to act in a supportive and enabling way towards the wider system. Where appropriate, the Secretary of State will be able to provide assistance directly to those delivering or supporting health service activity. The clause is needed because the existing statutory framework does not include a clear power that enables the Secretary of State to provide practical support across the full range of health service activity. Relevant support may be financial, practical, staffing-related or connected with education and training.

Without this clear power, there is a genuine risk of confusion about the basis on which such support may be offered, particularly where the Secretary of State is acting to facilitate the delivery of services by others. The power is permissive and facilitative: it does not require the Secretary of State to provide assistance, and it does not require any person or body to accept it. The power is also limited by its connection to the health service and matters relevant to education, training or activities considered beneficial to the health service. Its exercise remains subject to ordinary public law principles and public financial controls. For those reasons, I commend the clause to the Committee.

[Dr Johnson]

In a system as large as the NHS, covering an area as diverse as England, it is necessary that the Government be able to deal with unexpected situations. The pandemic may be half a decade behind us already, but the Committee will remember that the previous Government had to act quickly and part with a lot of money in a short time. In such instances, it is essential that Ministers have the power to provide financial assistance. It is not only about crises, however; ordinarily, there are occasions when a Government will want to roll out a new prevention programme or address deficiencies in care in particular areas. I know that health policy is always evolving, and the case for flexibility is clear. The Health Secretary may need to be able to provide financial assistance in pursuit of supporting the health service.

I am sure that hon. Members are familiar with the existing legislation. Section 12D of the National Health Service Act 2006 gives the Secretary of State, NHS England, an ICB or the local authority the ability to make direct financial payments as an assistance to persons or bodies. Clause 9 would new section 12DA of the Act, under which the Secretary of State would be empowered to provide assistance to any person or body carrying out, or proposing to carry out, activities that they deem beneficial to the service.

This is where semantics are important. The existing legislation allows the Secretary of State to make payments, but clause 9 is different: it would allow the Secretary of State to provide financial assistance and to make available persons employed by the civil service or any other resources that the Secretary of State has. This is a remarkably open-ended power that would allow the Secretary of State to spend taxpayers’ money while bypassing standard scrutiny. When NHS England spends money, there is transparency: the public can see how much has been spent on different types of care, ranging from hospitals to public health programmes. The public can see how much money has gone into trusts, into the independent sector and into procurement.

Transparency builds trust in the system and disincentivises wasteful spending. Where will parliamentarians or the public be able to see the financial expense of civil servants, or literally any other resource that the Secretary of State may offer in support? For the first time, the Health Secretary will have the power to insert politically directed civil servants into elements of the health service that are not under public ownership.

As clause 9 is drafted, the Secretary of State could provide civil service labour to private or mutual health providers that work within the NHS. Will the Minister elaborate on how that would be used, and how it would be beneficial to the taxpayer and the health service? The number of civil servants taking home more than six figures has increased under this Government. Their time should be focused on delivering public services, not propping up providers, especially ones that are private businesses.

It is also unclear where the legal liability lies under such arrangements. If something goes wrong and the human resources provided by the Secretary of State are responsible, is the Secretary of State responsible or the entity into which those staff have been inserted? Can the Minister clarify that?

It may be politically beneficial in the short term to provide state support, but it can be costly to the public purse and damaging to markets in the long term. By allowing the Health Secretary to issue assistance in the form of free civil servant labour, clause 9 effectively creates a new type of off-the-books subsidy. How can Members of the House or NHS providers tell whether assistance is operational support or a de facto subsidy? It could undermine the idea of a level playing field for firms contracted to deliver NHS services.

There is also the question of when assistance crosses from operational support into running a provider or firm. We do not necessarily want to be in a position where the Bill is used to bail out failing private firms with NHS contracts. I return to the phrase

“any other resources of the Secretary of State”.

It is difficult to understand why the legislation was written in this way, allowing financial assistance, the provision of labour, and then the use of absolutely any other resource at the Health Secretary’s disposal. As with several other provisions in the Bill, it seems another sign that the legislation was rushed. Instead of circumscribing power tightly where it is needed, the Bill gives huge sweeping powers while claiming that it decentralises.

The Minister has described clause 9 as a discretionary power intended to support the effective functioning of the health service and its workforce. Although that may be what she sought to achieve, that is not the reality. The clause paves the way for arbitrary and unaccountable deployments of state resources, and that should concern all hon. Members.

[Gregory Stafford]

I endorse the comments made by my hon. Friend the Member for Sleaford and North Hykeham.

I am particularly concerned about subsection (2)(a) of proposed new section 12DA. On examination, this provision raises significant concerns about the control of public expenditure and the efficient use of resources within the health service, and I find it rather vague. There is no definition of the terms used, no indication of scope and no express limitation on how the power is to be exercised.

When read together with subsection (1) of proposed new section 12DA, the effect, as I read it, is to allow the Secretary of State to provide funding to an extremely wide category of recipients. That includes not only public bodies and established NHS providers but, as my hon. Friend the Member for Sleaford and North Hykeham has said, private entities, charities, individuals and any person engaged in activities that the Secretary of State considers to be beneficial to the health service.

That breadth is not accompanied by a corresponding statutory safeguard. The clause does not set out criteria for eligibility, priorities for funding or principles to guide decision making. It does not impose limits on the sums that may be disbursed, nor does it require any structured process for allocating funds. There is no express provision for transparency, such as publication of decisions or reporting obligations to another body such as Parliament. That absence is significant.

Control over public expenditure ultimately lies with Parliament, yet the clause delegates a wide and flexible spending power to the Executive with little direction as to how that power is to be exercised. While it may be said that Treasury rules, audit requirements and general public law principles continue to apply, those are external controls and they do not substitute for clear statutory discipline within the provision itself.

The practical consequences of such a broad power need to be considered. The NHS is already under considerable financial strain; as we all know, demand is rising and resources are constrained, and there is a continuing need to ensure that funding is allocated in a way that delivers measurable improvements in outcomes. In that context, certainty, prioritisation and efficiency are essential. By framing this power in such open terms, the clause risks undermining those objectives. It will create the possibility of fragmented funding decisions, with resources distributed across a wide range of initiatives without clear and consistent frameworks, and it may lead to duplication of effort or to supporting projects with benefits that are uncertain or difficult to evaluate. Without clear criteria or structured oversight, it will become more difficult to ensure that funding is directed to the areas of greatest need.

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[Karin Smyth]

In concluding the debate on this part of the Bill, the Opposition have helpfully made most of my arguments for me. The hon. Member for Sleaford and North Hykeham opened with reference to the pandemic and the unusual circumstances in which we have found ourselves. It is obviously important that this Government learn the lessons from that pandemic in the round, that we are prepared and that, as NHS England is abolished, those powers come back to the Secretary of State so that we can respond to any eventuality that comes before us.

As the hon. Member for Farnham and Bordon said, there are existing standards and rules of procurement. Any spending that happens through the Department and the NHS will be publicly recorded and published in the Department of Health’s consolidated accounts. Those come before Parliament, so there is direct transparency through the parliamentary process in the usual way and, as we all know and as the hon. Member for Farnham and Bordon said, Treasury rules apply.

The point about the use of civil servants has been made. Again, it is really important that we recognise that we are bringing together NHS England, NHS staff and civil servants in the Department. It is right that the Secretary of State, in whatever eventuality comes before him or her, is able to deploy the right person for the right job, be they a civil servant or someone currently under NHS staff terms and conditions, to support that work going forward. The clause is necessarily flexible and broad to provide for those eventualities, and to enable the necessary assistance to be deployed. I commend clause 9 to the Committee.

Question put and agreed to.

Clause 9 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clause 10

Secretary of State’s duty as respects variation in provision of health services

[Dr Johnson]

I beg to move amendment 53, in clause 10, page 6, line 21, leave out from “interests” to end of line and insert “of patients”.

This amendment would only allow the Secretary of State to vary the balance between the public and private sectors in the NHS where it is in the interests of patients to do so.

[The Chair]

With this it will be convenient to consider clause stand part.

[Dr Johnson]

This is perhaps the oddest provision in the Bill. Since time immemorial, the Labour party has accused its political rivals of wanting to privatise the health service. In the early 2010s, the then shadow Ministers indulged the idea that the Health and Social Care Act 2012 was a Trojan horse for privatisation. Several years later, after the Minister had herself joined the House, claims continued. The then leader of the Labour party urged the previous Government to

“undo the very damaging privatisation of so much of our NHS”. —[Official Report, 23 October 2019; Vol. 666, c. 960.]

In the 2019 election, the public were even presented with a dodgy dossier—not Labour’s first—that purported to show that the NHS was on the table in negotiations for a trade deal. We now have a trade deal and the NHS is still intact.

Even though Members know full well that no sensible opposition party is advocating for abandoning our NHS system, they keep saying that Governments have been selling off the health service through the back door. Today, private providers deliver only about 10% of NHS care and the system continues to be free at the point of use.

That brings us to the deep irony of today’s debate. After years of peddling the NHS privatisation myth, the Labour party has introduced legislation to make privatisation possible. The Health and Social Care Act 2012 inserted a safeguard against privatisation, section 12E, into the NHS Act 2006. That section prohibits the Secretary of State from exercising his functions for the purpose of “causing a variation” in the proportion of services provided by the public or the private sector.

Clause 10 substitutes the text in that section and makes two small but significant changes. The first change is to expand the type of providers beyond public and private to

“different kinds of legal entity”.

That is probably a good change, because it encompasses the mutual and voluntary sectors, which do have an important role to play in health provision going forward.

The second change is what has caused alarm. The Secretary of State cannot alter the provider mix unless they deem it to be

“in the interests of the health service.”

Could the Minister set out some scenarios when it would be deliberately beneficial to privatise provision or, indeed, when it would be beneficial to deliberately nationalise provision? I cannot recall an instance where Ministers needed to privatise an entire service to ensure patients did not lose access to care.

In February, the Minister of State for Secondary Care told the House that lessons had been learned from private finance initiatives. Yet the Government announced that 80% of neighbourhood health centres will be privatised through public private partnerships. The Government are able to use these partnerships to loan money outside their limits, but it tends to be more costly than public sector borrowing. Essentially, it is borrowing, but not borrowing on the balance sheet.

What is the effect of these private initiatives? I remember receiving my own office on being promoted as a doctor to consultant. It is quite an exciting moment; before that, resident doctors share an office. I had my own space, my own desk, my own computer and a big whiteboard for notes. When I asked whether I could place the whiteboard on the wall, I was told I could not—it was £800 to stick it on the wall under the private finance initiative contract.

So my great big whiteboard sat there, propped against the wall. Periodically, I would move a piece of paper, knock the bottom of the whiteboard and it would tip and fall on me when I was sat at my desk. I did suggest putting it up myself, but that would also incur a charge through the PFI contract—for modifying things without getting them to do the modifications—so I just had to sit there with it propped up against the wall, ad infinitum.

The Government are on the hook for more than £100 billion of payouts, simply for the use and maintenance of PFI facilities. The Labour scheme was a shambolic waste of taxpayers’ money that could have been spent on improving care. When my hon. Friend the Member for Hinckley and Bosworth (Dr Evans) asked the Minister about public private partnerships, she told him she was

“very proud of the capital investment under the last Labour Government”.—[Official Report, 4 March 2026; Vol. 781, c. 386WH.]

But is clause 10 simply a mechanism for Ministers to develop further private finance initiatives? If Government spending is under pressure, may Ministers seek to shift provision even if it proves more costly in the long run?

There is another side to the conundrum of clause 10. Instead of a Health Secretary intent on privatisation, what if we get one intent on squeezing out private sector provision? Who our new Prime Minister will be, we do not know, but one of the candidates has called for the country to abandon 40 years of neoliberalism. Perhaps the Minister could elaborate on what that means, since the tax take as a percentage of GDP is the highest it has been in 40 years. To me, it signals a potential hostility towards choice and competition. We do not want to be in a situation in which the decision is made to alter the provider mix in service of ideology, rather than in the best interests of patients.

I am aware of several private firms that provide services to the NHS and are concerned that clause 10 could be wielded against them. If a future Health Secretary decided to reduce private provision on the basis of ideology, what would happen to the 10% of planned activity that is currently delivered by for-profit entities? NHS providers could not feasibly handle such a surge in demand, waiting lists would increase further, and patient choice would suffer. It would also be expensive. If private providers fear that the NHS is no longer a reliable customer, and that they may suddenly lose their contract if this clause is invoked, they will charge a risk premium on their services—that is what firms do when they face shifting regulatory goalposts. That would only damage the public purse.

Under clause 10, it would be legally possible for the Health Secretary to alter the provider mix. As a result, it would be worth it for several types of providers and ideologically motivated groups to spend vast sums of money hiring lobbyists to convince Ministers that their sector deserves favourable treatment and that they serve the interests of the NHS. Organisations would invest less in resources and more in influencing the rules, which is not a good outcome either.

All those issues are compounded by the fact that clause 10 is imprecise. What does the Minister define as

“the interests of the health service”?

I am not trying to catch the Minister out; I just want to illustrate the problem with legislation drafted in such terms. It is difficult to prove that the Health Secretary has not acted in what they thought were the best interests of the health service. What could that refer to? It could refer to the interests of patients, to the interests of NHS staff or to the financial stability of the health service—it is entirely subjective. What is the health service there for? It is there for patients, which is why I tabled amendment 53.

Amendment 53 would revise clause 10 to specify that the Secretary of State must not alter the provider mix unless doing so is in the interests of patients. I would like to place patients at the centre of the Bill’s changes, in recognition that we do not have the numbers on the Committee to change the clause altogether. My revision would make it harder for the Health Secretary to justify altering the provider mix if it harms patient access or reduces their choice. It would make NHS providers less fearful to know that the Health Secretary would be subjected to a better defined legal threshold.

[Gregory Stafford]

The shadow Minister has outlined a couple of hypotheticals for the future, when we have a different Prime Minister and a different Secretary of State. One might go down a route of more privatisation, another down a route of removing the private sector from health service provision. My concern is more practical and for the here and now: if the clause stands part of the Bill, it must be because the Government have some desire to do one of those two things now. Would it not be a good idea to hear from the Minister which of those two options it is?

[Dr Johnson]

It does raise questions about the point of new section 12E. That provision was not there before; there must be a reason for adding it. Either the Government want ideologically to reduce the amount of private provision in the NHS, or they want to increase it. The clause gives them the power to do both.

Labour politicians very often tell the public that the NHS is being privatised. Data has shown that that is not happening, but that did not matter; they found the myth politically advantageous and repeated it ad nauseam. Now, the Minister and her colleagues are in office—they have the levers of power—and are proposing to change the law to make it easier to change the provider mix. That is not only ironic but deeply misguided.

I tabled amendment 53 to require any changes to the provider mix to be in the interests of patients. If the Minister is unwilling to support that, will she offer a compelling explanation why? Clause 10 has alarmed stakeholders across the health sector and the political spectrum. That really ought to tell us something. I look forward to her response.

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[Karin Smyth]

I will respond to that question before picking up the other comments. If I do not address all the Committee’s comments, I will come back to Members.

Everyone would expect this, but let me be clear: this Government are absolutely committed to a free-at-the-point-of-use, taxpayer-funded service. We also think that unless it is reformed and changed, it is an existential problem for the British public, who will not continue to support the service. As Members know, one Parliament can never bind another one, so I cannot predict what a future Government will do. There is talk from some of our Reform colleagues about an insurance-based system. There are people who were in the Conservative party but have moved over who think that, so obviously I cannot—

[Dr Johnson]

Will the Minister give way on that point?

[Karin Smyth]

I will make some points, and then I will be happy take the hon. Lady’s intervention if I do not address what she was going to say.

The hon. Member for North Shropshire outlined some of the history. This clause seeks to strike a balance. The governing principle behind it is that the decisions of the Secretary of State must not vary the proportion of providers by the type of legal entity that they are. Decisions must be taken according to what serves the health service and the people who depend on it. The clause permits, by way of exception, the balance between sectors to be varied purposefully, but only where doing so would be in the interests of the health service. That would, for example, prevent the Secretary of State from deliberately choosing to grow the proportion of NHS services delivered by private providers for solely ideological reasons.

I understand the concern that drives the amendment. It is that the exception might be relied on to support the convenience of those already providing the service, without taking into account what is best for patients, as the hon. Member for Sleaford and North Hykeham said. That is not the Government’s position, and the clause does not lead to that outcome. The test that it creates is whether the interests of the health services are served.

As the hon. Member for Sleaford and North Hykeham also said, the definition of the health service—as defined under section 1 of the National Health Service Act 2006—is not separate from the people it exists to serve. It is defined as “a comprehensive health service” for “the people of England”, directed at improving their health and at the “prevention, diagnosis and treatment” of illness. A decision to rely on the exception must be justified by reference to that duty; one taken merely because it was easier or more convenient for existing providers or any other group, with no such justification, would be unlawful. The protection that she seeks is, in substance, already secured by the clause.

The amendment would also create another difficulty. Section 1 of the 2006 Act reaches the entire population and includes the prevention of illness before anyone becomes a patient at all. The “interests of patients” reaches only those already receiving care, which is a narrower test than I think the hon. Lady intended, and would allow a Secretary of State who was so minded to provide a landscape that ignores vital preventive health and wellbeing concerns. I hope that she will take from my remarks an assurance that the clause already meets her concerns.

The hon. Lady also highlighted the example of PFI—a subject of much discussion over many years—and of being unable to change her whiteboard. That is absolutely one of the lessons that needs to be learned from the way in which some past PFIs were procured and dealt with. For example, as a new Government, we outlined proposals for a new model of public-private partnerships for neighbourhood health centres, among other things. The previous Government could also have learned the lessons and done something about that, but they chose instead to completely halt the building of any kind of facilities. That is one reason why we are in such a shocking state at the moment. The new proposal outlines, as I think the Opposition know, an 80:20 funding route, exactly to make the point about which is the most efficient way forward. That will absolutely drive measures for growth and create more jobs in the sector.

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[Karin Smyth]

I refer the hon. Gentleman back to my comments. The health service is defined under section 1 of the NHS Act 2006 as not being separate from the people it exists to serve. It is defined as “a comprehensive health service” for “the people of England”, directed at improving their health and at the “prevention, diagnosis and treatment” of illness—so, yes.

At this juncture, I will explain a number of other features of the clause. In particular, I draw the Committee’s attention to the fact that it builds on section 12E of the 2006 Act to cover the Secretary of State’s health functions, powers and duties. It recognises that, with the abolition of NHS England, the Secretary of State has a far more substantial role to play—as a commissioner of services, for example—than previously. I also put on the record that whenever the Secretary of State takes a decision in this space, the general NHS procurement requirements and other statutory duties will continue to apply.

Finally, the NHS relies on privately owned providers, as well as charities and community organisations, to provide a range of important NHS-funded services across the country. As such, it is important to ensure that, where there is a mixed-market provision between public and private for providers of a particular service, the Government’s powers are not used to distort the provision and potentially discourage important investment from outside the NHS. Conversely, they should not be used purposefully to favour independent providers over NHS providers for reasons unrelated to the quality or efficiency of NHS-funded healthcare.

[Dr Johnson]

If I heard the Minister right, she said that the clause did not provide for changes on the basis of ideology. However, it says that changes are not to be made

“unless the Secretary of State considers that to do so is in the interests of the health service.”

A Secretary of State whose ideology is that the private sector is bad, good or whatever else could well believe that it is in the interests of the health service to be private or not private. How does the clause prevent an ideologically driven Secretary of State from changing the health service on the basis simply of his ideology, rather than of patient or clinical need?

[Karin Smyth]

The hon. Lady tempts me to delve into the politics of future Secretaries of State. They will respond according to the manifesto on which they are elected by the British public. That is the point of a democratically accountable public service. I think that the clause strikes that balance, as I have said. For those reasons, I hope that the hon. Lady will withdraw her amendment. I commend the clause to the Committee.

Question put, That the amendment be made.

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General power to direct integrated care boards

[Dr Johnson]

I beg to move amendment 47, in clause 11, page 8, leave out lines 15 to 30.

This amendment prevents the Secretary of State from removing the Chief Executive of an integrated care board.

[The Chair]

With this it will be convenient to discuss clause stand part.

[Dr Johnson]

Clause 11 is particularly interesting. In August 2025, Alan Milburn was asked about the abolition of NHS England on the Health Foundation podcast. He said that the Government wanted to see a model that was “more delegated…more devolved” and “more diverse”, which necessitated the centre being smaller. Considering that he is a former Labour Health Secretary and a non-executive director at the Department of Health and Social Care, I do not doubt his understanding of what the Government wanted to achieve.

When the former Health Secretary, the right hon. Member for Ilford North (Wes Streeting), announced the 10-year plan to the House, he also talked about dissolving power. He spoke of a

“brave new world of devolution of power, resources and control”.—[Official Report, 3 July 2025; Vol. 770, c. 469.]

That was repeated in the Government publications that accompanied the Bill:

“Empowering ICBs as strategic commissioners will support putting patients at the centre of care by devolving decisions to a local level where different services can better integrate… Reforms to the NHS FT model will give providers more flexibility to design and deliver healthcare around local needs.”

Between the announcement of the abolition of NHS England and the publication of the Bill, Ministers articulated a vision for a more decentralised system. There is expert consensus that decentralisation boosts performance, reduces health disparities and fosters innovation. After listening to remarks this morning, I have no doubt that Members are clued up on the importance of innovation to the health service, but a problem—a philosophical contradiction—at the heart of the Government’s reform programme and the Bill is that Ministers talk about decentralisation while these provisions constitute a recentralisation of power.

Pathways Study: Puberty Suppression

Caroline Johnson Excerpts

Monday 22nd June 2026 Commons Chamber

[Dr Caroline Johnson (Sleaford and North Hykeham) (Con)]

I declare an interest as an NHS consultant paediatrician and a member of the Royal College of Paediatrics and Child Health. What does this trial do? Put simply, it takes physically healthy children with normal pubertal development and subjects them to powerful drugs that may weaken their bones, affect their ability to think, damage sexual function and make them unable to have children of their own. Serious stuff—and for what? To treat a diagnosis of gender incongruence that will probably resolve without treatment.

Let us look at this carefully. Gender incongruence is a subjective condition; it is how someone says they feel. There are no lab markers and no scans. That, of course, is not necessarily unusual. In fact, it is common in mental health conditions. Gender incongruence is often self-resolving; it gets better on its own. Again, this is not unusual in paediatrics. It is really common for children to be admitted to hospital for supported care for things like gastroenteritis and respiratory viruses. Puberty blockers are powerful drugs. This is a powerful treatment with significant long-term consequences. Again, this is not new to paediatrics. Some chemotherapy, for example, has substantial short and long-term consequences. But what is unusual and, I think, toxic is the combination of all three. Medicine is about balancing risk. Where else would we give powerful drugs with potentially serious long-term consequences for a subjective condition that is likely to get better on its own?

I understand that this trial has been approved, but time and again we have seen and heard how fear and hostility can distort priorities. We have seen tragedy occur when fears of accusations of racism limited mental health treatment. We have seen profound suffering when fear of accusations of Islamophobia limited inquiries into the grooming gangs. The healthcare of children distressed about their gender is another topic where there have been attempts to shut down debate with threats and accusations of transphobia.

Such attempts were reported in relation to the Tavistock.

When considering treatments for life, with lifelong implications, we have a duty to be careful and sensible, so I ask the Secretary of State: why are this Government funding a trial that will cause harm to physically healthy children? These children may be 11 years old, at Tanner stage 2. Some of them are primary school children with only minimal signs of puberty. This is far too young. The MHRA warned in February that the youngest patients are at greatest risk; they may end up on puberty blockers for a much longer period, and face a higher risk to fertility, because sperm and eggs have not yet fully developed at Tanner stage 2.

I am reminded of this point in the judgment in Bell v. Tavistock:

“There is no age appropriate way to explain to many of these children what losing their fertility or full sexual function may mean to them in later years.”

Yet as the Secretary of State confirmed, the children must consent or assent to being in the trial. Why did the Government not heed the MHRA’s recommendation of a minimum age of 14 years? This Labour Government think that 14 is too young to watch social media. Why do they think 11 is old enough for this trial?

What is the goal of the treatment? In the trial, the outcome is a short to medium-term effect on quality of life and body satisfaction. Does the Secretary of State believe this is proportionate to the risks of these medications? Is there any evidence suggesting that puberty blockers are safer than they were thought to be in 2024, when the Government banned them, following the expert advice from the Commission on Human Medicines? Some have suggested that the drugs help adults to pass as the opposite sex. Is the long-term damage really worth it for the cosmetic benefit of a few? And it is just a few, because we know that the vast majority will be better without any treatment.

The Secretary of State said that “when it comes to eligibility, we are talking about a very small subset of a very small group.” Even if we were to accept the premise that a very small number might benefit from treatment, how could the clinicians identify which those children might be? A study of clinical outcomes from kids treated at the Tavistock is due to be completed next year. That could help, so why is the Secretary of State not waiting until that report is completed before conducting an experiment on an unnecessarily broad group of children? Has evidence come to light since the Cass review that helps clinicians confidently work out which 11-year-olds will become adults with gender dysphoria and which will not?

The Secretary of State has said that the criteria will stop short-term harm, and that should mean that long-term harm will not occur or go unnoticed, but history is littered with examples of things that do not cause short-term harm but do cause long-term damage. He also suggested that the trial will resolve the dispute, but sadly, I do not think that will be the case, because, first, a single trial rarely resolves a dispute; and, secondly, the comparison group, who are not getting the puberty blockers, are not randomised and are an intrinsically different population. This is bound to be highlighted once the result is published. In medicine, we have a founding principle: primum non nocere—first, do no harm. I ask the Health Secretary to please cancel this trial before vulnerable children suffer unnecessary, irreversible harm on his watch.

[James Murray]

I agree with the shadow Minister that most children and young people who are questioning their identity and gender are likely to resolve those questions on their own, and I think Dr Cass would agree with that. As I said in my opening remarks, for the majority of children who question their gender, we should let them be; they will resolve the matter through their friends and family and their own development. We are talking here about a small subset within a small group of children who need further support. I also agree with the shadow Minister that the situation before Dr Cass did her review—the situation that had developed in the last few years before the turn of the decade—was totally unacceptable, and we should be clear that that was wrong.

The shadow Minister asked about protecting the young people involved in the trial from harm. As I set out, there is intense scrutiny, and there are robust mechanisms to prevent the children involved from being harmed. She mentioned the MHRA recommendation for the lower age limit. Initially, there was no lower age limit, but a scientific dialogue between the MHRA and the trial sponsor led to publication last week of the updated protocol, which recommended the minimum ages of 11 and 12.

The gateways to younger people and children becoming involved in the trial are significant. There must be not just consent or assent from the children, and consent from their parents or guardians, but approval from the NHS care team, the national multidisciplinary team and others before anyone can be involved. As I set out, I feel uncomfortable and uneasy when considering this matter, but I think that the right way for us to move forward is to have the clinical evidence on which to base decisions. I have received reassurances about there being the highest possible level of scrutiny and protection from harm for young people involved in the trial, and that is the basis on which, on balance, I think it is right for it to proceed.

Health Bill (Third sitting)

Caroline Johnson Excerpts

Committee stage
Thursday 18th June 2026 Public Bill Committees

[The Minister for Secondary Care (Karin Smyth)]

Clause 1 formally abolishes NHS England as a statutory body, which is one of the key aims of the Bill. The current structure, with its two centres, has led to layers of unnecessary bureaucracy, duplication and unclear lines of accountability, and has come with significant cost, with the centre growing significantly in size since 2013. Through the Bill, we are simplifying the organisational landscape of the NHS and removing unnecessary complexity and overlapping roles among NHS England and the Department of Health and Social Care. The reform will enable leaders and staff to focus on delivering care, rather than on navigating bureaucratic hurdles. Importantly, it will also restore Ministers’ central role in national oversight and setting strategy, which the public rightly expect as part of a democratic system. The creation of an arm’s length body of this size was a mistake, and we seek to rectify it.

Clause 2 is integral to the orderly abolition of NHS England. It empowers the Secretary of State to establish transfer schemes, which will provide a structured and transparent means of moving property, rights and liabilities from NHS England to the Department of Health and Social Care, the integrated care boards and other relevant bodies. This robust legal mechanism is required to ensure a responsible transfer of NHS England’s assets and staff. It ensures that all necessary legal powers and permissions for the transfer are in place, preventing uncertainty or loose ends for staff, patients, service users and partner organisations as NHS England is abolished. The clause allows provisions to be made similar to those under TUPE to ensure the protection of employment rights for staff who are transferred from NHS England. In addition, the clause allows for the shared ownership or use of property, ensuring that assets can be distributed and used in a way that supports service continuity for patients and the broader health system.

Clause 3, at its core, provides a power for His Majesty’s Treasury to ensure through regulations that transfers from NHSE to the DHSC, ICBs and other bodies are delivered smoothly and on a tax-neutral basis. In particular, it allows HM Treasury to make adjustments to how existing tax legislation applies to transfers of NHS England’s property, staff and liabilities in a scheme made under clause 2. That will ensure that no tax charges arise, and that neither NHS England nor the transferee organisations end up with a different tax position due to the organisational changes. Importantly, the scope of the power is tightly constrained: it applies only to specified existing taxes and only for the purpose of ensuring tax neutrality in relation to transfers made under clause 2. Without the power, there would be a risk that transfers could trigger unintended tax liabilities that would divert public money away from frontline services and undermine the policy intent of the legislation. Clause 3 therefore protects value for money and ensures that organisational change does not come with avoidable fiscal costs.

Without the changes made by clauses 1 to 3 we will not be able to meet the ambitions set out in the 10-year health plan. The abolition of NHS England, delivered in an orderly, proportionate and considered way that safeguards the interests of staff and taxpayers, is a necessary precondition for an NHS that is more effective for patients, delivers better outcomes across the country and achieves the ambitions that the public expect of us. I therefore commend the clauses to the Committee.

[Dr Caroline Johnson (Sleaford and North Hykeham) (Con)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Sir Jeremy. First, I declare a number of interests. I am a consultant paediatrician working in the NHS, a member of the British Medical Association and a member of the Royal College of Paediatrics and Child Health. Like the Minister for Secondary Care, I got into politics after working in the health service. I am sure she agrees that what you see when working in the health service stays with you when working in the House, and that it benefits the House to have people who have done all different jobs working here.

The NHS constitution says that health services should

“improve, prevent, diagnose and treat both physical and mental health problems with equal regard”,

yet in my work as a doctor—and I worked across several hospitals during my training—the gap between the vision of what should be delivered and the reality of what is being delivered has become apparent to me. The answer frequently given seems to be top-down reorganisation. As I will talk about in a minute, such top-down reorganisation has been done so many times but does not seem necessarily to have delivered in practice what it promised. Indeed, to an extent, we seem to be changing things from how they were to how they are to how they were, backwards and forwards. This Government have decided, in pursuit of better outcomes and cost savings, once again to reorganise the health service, and they seek to do so with this Bill and particularly clause 1.

Clause 1 formally abolishes NHS England. The clause may have very few words, but they represent one of the biggest changes to our health service in decades. Abolishing NHS England is not just a decision about organisational structure or trimming bureaucracy, but a break with the direction of travel the health service has been on since its inception.

Prior to the creation of the NHS in 1948, health services were fragmented: some people used contributory workplace schemes, people who could afford it paid out of pocket, and everyone else relied on very limited state and voluntary provision or went without. In the aftermath of the second world war, the national health service created a state monopoly provider. The Minister of Health had a duty to provide a comprehensive health service free for all at the point of use and a bureaucracy was created to manage it.

There was a tripartite split between hospital services, local authority services and independent practitioner services. The hospitals provided secondary care for those with serious disease and those requiring emergency response. The NHS also took over many cottage hospitals in rural areas that had previously been run by GPs, and larger hospitals that used to be run by local authorities and the voluntary sector. At that time, hospital staff were managed by hospital management committees appointed by regional hospital boards. Those boards implemented Government policies and oversaw the budget. Meanwhile, teaching hospitals kept more independence, directed by their own boards of governors.

Councils, operating as local health authorities, had a duty to provide several personal health services including health centres, maternity care, home nursing, immunisation and ambulance services—some of those are now provided by NHS England. They also had substantial powers to prevent illness and to care for the disabled. Independent practitioners—GPs, dentists, pharmacists and opticians— delivered services to local communities under contract from the health service. Now they deliver under contract from NHS England and the ICBs.

The health service underwent significant reorganisation in 1974, not long before I was born. The main objective at that time was to create a unified, integrated system. Community health services previously operated by councils moved into NHS control. These functions were put under the control of new area health authorities, which took control of most NHS hospitals. Some larger area health authorities had their own distinct management teams, which managed services on the ground—we can look at the current process and ask how it is similar and how it is different. The majority of teaching hospitals lost independent governance, in the way that we, too, are seeing that go back and forth. Above the new area health authorities sat regional health authorities, which were responsible for planning and allocating financial resources. Their members were appointed by the Secretary of State.

In the 1980s, Ministers recognised that the system had become very bureaucratic—perhaps similarly to today—and in 1982, area health authorities and district management committees were scrapped in favour of new district health authorities, with the aim of reducing what was in effect a three-layer structure to two layers. The thinking was that the new district health authorities would be closer to local populations, but primary care was left mostly unchanged. Once again, there are parallels with what is happening now.

From its inception to the end of the 1980s, the NHS had gone through several waves of rationalisation, but the model remained that of a centrally planned public service. However, during that time, there was an intellectual change—the concept of choice. Previously, people had been happy just to get a health service, which they had not had access to before, but that changed and people wanted choice. We now see the benefits of giving patients choice, and we will hear about how the Government’s changes through the Bill will apparently improve patient choice.

Of course, individuals have different values and preferences and live their lives in different ways, which makes it impossible for there to be a single public interest for the Government to pursue. Against that backdrop, the new public management approach to Government administration emerged, advocating for the introduction of market mechanisms and performance metrics—we have heard about the targets that NHS England follows—in public institutions. In theory, if elements of the state could operate more like the private sector, perhaps Ministers could achieve both cost savings and better outcomes.

In 1991 the Government introduced market logic into the health service. They created an internal market by splitting the purchasers—mainly, at that time, the district health authorities—from the providers, which were the hospitals. The Secretary of State gained the power to create NHS trusts—hospitals with the freedom to acquire, hold and dispose of assets; make bids for capital directly to the NHS management executive, in the way they might for NHS England; borrow money within limits; develop their own management structure; and employ their own staff with their own terms of employment. Within three years, almost all providers had become trusts. GP fundholding was established, enabling larger practices to receive budgets to buy secondary care on behalf of their patients, but that was short lived and was shelved in 1999.

When new Labour came to power in the late ’90s, one might have thought that things might swing back the other way, but in some respects the trajectory was similar. Initially, the Labour Government talked critically about the internal market. In 1998 the then Health Secretary told Members that the Government were

“sweeping away the internal market”—[Official Report, 1 July 1998; Vol. 315, c. 314.]

and the NHS plan published in 2000 claimed that

“the internal market introduced competition but failed to bring improvements.”

However, the policy choices of that Government furthered, rather than dismantled, the marketised aspects of the health service. They were saying one thing but, to some extent, doing another. There are similarities with this Bill: we have talked about decentralising power but, as we heard in evidence on Tuesday, many people feel it is more of a centralising Bill than a decentralising Bill.

It was clear that the new public management approach had been adopted across the political divide. The NHS plan promised patients more choice about how to access the NHS—a good thing. It promised a system of inspection, accountability and far greater local autonomy. It said:

“For the first time the NHS and the private sector will work more closely together not just to build new hospitals but to provide NHS patients with the operations they need.”

When GP fundholding went, the Government introduced primary care groups, which meant that GPs, nurses and other staff came together to commission for local populations. Those groups then evolved into primary care trusts, which by 2002 were responsible for spending 80% of the annual NHS budget—a budget that is now distributed by NHS England.

--- Later in debate ---

[The Chair]

Very well. I call Caroline Johnson.

[Dr Johnson]

Thank you, Sir Jeremy. I will be grateful if the Minister clarifies at the end, because she seems to be suggesting that Lord Darzi’s report was wrong in some way. He was assessing the NHS at the same time that she was, with the experience of having been a Minister, and made the counter-suggestion.

It is not just about what one does; it is about how one goes about it. As we heard on Tuesday, there is in general a plan of what is going to happen, but so many decisions have not been made yet in relation to this. In particular, one of the witnesses from the union talked about how unsettling that was for staff and how difficult it is for staff to be asked to go from the current location to a destination unknown. It is very difficult to make transformation in a direction when it is not clear where one wants to be.

In March 2025, the Government announced that NHSE would be abolished. The largest healthcare union described the handling of the announcement as “shambolic”, coming only days after the announcement of a 50% cut to staffing levels at the centre. In the days and months since, Ministers have provided only some clarity about what they are trying to achieve. According to the Government, the restructure will cut red tape, save money, devolve power and improve accountability, all with a view to improving patient outcomes. Those are not new objectives; they are the same objectives that underpinned the creation of NHS England. How is it that the same objectives require dismantling the institution created to deliver them? Again, I just do not understand what has changed the Government’s mind.

Let us look at cutting red tape. As a Conservative, I welcome the ambition to make the health service more efficient. My constituents do not want to pay for staff in the Minister’s Department duplicating the work of those in NHS England, particularly when thousands every day are subjected to care that could certainly be improved. On Tuesday, we heard from the former Health Secretary, my right hon. Friend the Member for Godalming and Ash (Sir Jeremy Hunt), that

“the bureaucracy has got completely out of hand.”––[Official Report, Health Public Bill Committee, 16 June 2026; c. 33, Q58.]

However, that bureaucracy is not confined to NHS England and any medical practitioner will explain that bureaucracy exists across the entire health system. Can the Minister explain how the changes will improve that?

Lord Darzi’s independent investigation said that, taken together, there are nearly 80 people employed in regulatory and headquarters functions for each NHS provider trust. Can the Minister say how many people will be in such roles once the abolition of NHS England is complete? Can she talk about how abolishing NHS England will review the volume of paperwork on patient safety, some of which is helpful for patient safety and some of which is not. That was identified by Dr Dash in her report.

I remind Members that abolishing NHS England is not a prerequisite of undertaking a robust cost-benefit analysis before introducing changes. We have had difficulty in getting answers on numbers. We have been told that this will save money—£1 billion a year, I believe—but no sums have been produced for us to scrutinise to explain where that will come from. Indeed, when asking questions about where it might come from, it has been quite difficult to establish that. We have heard that the redundancy package will be worth £1.1 billion to £1.3 billion. It does not seem clear exactly where that will come from or how it will benefit patients. It is also not clear how many of those staff will end up re-employed by the new organisation, having received redundancy from the first, and what effect that will have on the country’s finances.

More than a year on from the Government’s announcement that they will abolish NHS England, how much progress have Ministers made? In March 2025, Lord Scriven tabled a question about the legislation required to abolish NHS England. In her response, the Health Minister in the other place, Baroness Merron, wrote:

“Ministers and senior Department officials will work with the new transformation team at the top of NHS England, led by Sir Jim Mackey, to determine the structure and requirements needed to support the creation of a new centre for health and care.”

One year later, in March 2026, the Liberal Democrat health spokeswoman, the hon. Member for North Shropshire, tabled a question asking what functions had been transferred over since the announcement was made. In response, the Minister for Secondary Care wrote:

“Work is progressing at pace to develop the design and operating model for the new integrated organisation, and to plan for the smooth transfer of people, functions, and responsibilities.”

One does not need to enlist the services of Hercule Poirot to see that, one year later, that work has not been done. The Government have no comprehensive plan for how they will abolish NHS England. They can write a line in the Bill to abolish it, but how that will happen, to which clauses 2 and 3 relate, is, as yet, really uncertain.

--- Later in debate ---

While I welcome the aims and what the Minister has said, I caution against excessive optimism in this place that simply doing away with NHS England will naturally give rise to savings and reduce doubling up of jobs and slightly unfathomable decision making. I will also take this opportunity to say that some of the institutions and frameworks that will continue, such as ICBs, are being subjected to cuts while being asked to take on more responsibility. I do not agree with some of those responsibilities being shifted, such as merging Healthwatch and the patient voice, but that will come up later in the debate on this Bill, so I will not say more on it at this time.

[Dr Johnson]

My hon. Friend talked about how the ICBs have merged. There are lots of different types of reorganisation going on at once: the abolition of NHS England, the changes to local authorities, the introduction of mayors in some areas, and the changes and cuts to ICBs. What effect is that having in his part of the country?

[Joe Robertson]

The shadow Minister points to a much wider issue entirely relevant to the Government’s plans here: the more reorganisation we do, the more we shrink the bandwidth to deal with smaller and more operational problems because so much of the resource has been pulled in. In my area, although it is probably true everywhere, reorganisation of Department or Government responsibilities causes endless frustration that while Governments and politicians—I take some responsibility for my own side’s actions at times in the past in very limited ways—talk about reorganisation when so much can be done on what might be termed low-hanging fruit.

I worry that the Government are missing out on opportunities here to make a much more meaningful difference day to day and much more quickly than this huge reorganisation will achieve. Everything is about priorities. Plainly, no Government can do everything they want to do all at one time. It slightly surprises me that reorganisation of the NHS and doing away with NHS England has become such a major priority, considering it did not feature in the Labour party manifesto just two years ago. I do not seek to put words in the Minister’s mouth, but the gist of her evidence to this Committee was that within eight months of this Labour Government coming into power, they realised that NHS England had to go. Eight months is eight months, but it seems a short timeframe in which to decide to do away with a fundamental way that health is organised and delivered in this country.

Going back to priorities, I recall that before the election, the former Secretary of State for Health and Social Care—then the shadow Secretary of State—the right hon. Member for Ilford North, talked about introducing a national care service. That was the Labour party’s big priority. Although Conservative Members and, frankly, the majority of the public were slightly sceptical of his intentions, we all agree that social care needs reform and that ultimately, the success of the NHS will be delivered only if we deal with the long-standing crisis in social care, which extends back three decades or more, as it is entirely dependent on that.

Before the election, the priority was the national care service, but since the not-so-random date of 5 July 2024, when the right hon. Gentleman became the Secretary of State, he ceased to refer to reform of social care, and it seems once again to have been put on the back burner. I wonder whether the Government’s plan to abolish NHS England has gotten in the way of equally large, and perhaps even more substantial, reforms, which might ultimately have made a much more meaningful difference to the delivery of not only healthcare but health and social care, as well as to the overall wellbeing, including financial wellbeing, of so many people in this country. Social care refers to people living with frailty or dementia, and the family carers, and families more widely, on whom that has an impact. Every decision made is a decision not made, given the resource and bandwidth of those whom any Government ask to implement change, such as the civil service, advisers and the hundreds or thousands of people who are relied on to deliver in their day-to-day job.

I and, it seems, all the other Committee members do not disagree with the fundamentals of what Government are trying to do; their reasons for doing this are broadly sensible, so who could disagree? However, because of the manner in which it is being done, I urge caution and a check on being too optimistic—just doing it and expecting all the good things to flow. It will take an awful lot more than simply passing the Bill to make the NHS the success that, to take the Minister at her word, she intends, wants and will do her best to achieve.

Ordered, That the debate be now adjourned.—(Emma Foody.)

Health Bill (First sitting)

Caroline Johnson Excerpts

Tuesday 16th June 2026 Public Bill Committees

[Dr Caroline Johnson (Sleaford and North Hykeham) (Con)]

I am a member of the Royal College of Paediatrics and Child Health, a member of the British Medical Association and an NHS consultant paediatrician.

[Sojan Joseph (Ashford) (Lab)]

I used to work in a mental health trust for many years, and I am still its employee—I am on an extended career break from the trust.

--- Later in debate ---

[The Chair]

You are, absolutely. Normally, as a courtesy, I allow a very brief comment if you want to say anything.

Dr Dash: No, thank you.

[Dr Johnson]

Q Good morning, Dr Dash. What effect is the abolition of NHS England having on its current day-to-day functioning? What sort of number of people are working solely or mostly on the transfer, and is that affecting your ability to deliver on your core business?

Dr Dash: I do not believe it is affecting our ability to deliver. Much of the work to date has been led by a joint team of people from across NHS England and the Department of Health and Social Care, who are working together, have put together a process and have been going through all the things you would expect of any integration process. That has been a fairly confined team.

As they are starting to look at what needs to happen in each of the different functional areas—the different directorates—that we have set out, they are working with the directors general or the executive directors leading each of those to understand what different functions we need to enact within each of those directorates, and what their teams could look like. They are putting time into that, which is good—that is what we want them to do, not least because they are also looking at ways of working, not just at numbers of people—but I would not say that it is a distraction. In fact, in some ways, I would say it is really helpful, because it is helping to define the core priorities and the key things that we need to focus on, and how we can continue on the journey of seeking to improve health and healthcare services. That is across those executive directors and directors general.

The team who are putting a lot of time into this, not surprisingly, are the people working in the HR functions. That team are spending a lot of time going through the mechanics, and they have been managing things like the voluntary redundancy programme. I would hope, and I believe, that there is no negative impact on our focusing on what we need to focus on.

[Dr Johnson]

Q You wrote a report about the CQC that was not hugely flattering, and you have also written a report about the patient safety landscape. First, why did you choose to roll HSSIB into the CQC, given what you said about the CQC and the clear and obvious conflicts of interest that it creates? Secondly, you identified in your findings that a large number of clinical nursing staff were being moved into more managerial roles, with an effect on clinical capacity. Which of your recommendations would have dealt with that, or what would you recommend now?

Dr Dash: On the first question, as you say, my first review looked at the CQC, and that there are a number of considerable challenges there. I would have hoped that, by now, many of those challenges had been addressed. Some of them have been, but some of them have struggled. It has already gone from the previous chief exec to a new chief exec, and it is now out looking for another chief exec, and the chair has changed too. That has definitely impeded progress. As I said, it has made considerable progress in some key areas, in particular the use of technology, but it still has a way to go, and we all need to acknowledge that. I note that the ministerial team in the Department of Health and Social care has suggested that the integration of HSSIB into the CQC should happen only when the CQC is in a more stable position, which sounds sensible and pragmatic to me.

On the second review that I did, I was asked to look at the regulatory and quasi-regulatory landscape. I was referred to a report that had been done by Professor Carl Macrae and others that talked about 126 organisations. When I looked, I found more than 150, and I listed all of those in my report. I spoke to many people—well over 200 people who joined various roundtables and so on—and the very consistent theme was that this is so busy and confusing, and keeps leading to all sorts of different recommendations from different organisations, but also to people having continually to respond to all these different bodies asking for people to fill out a form, asking questions and doing reviews. As a result, our clinical staff—not just our nurses, but all our clinical staff—are having to spend considerable time filling out those forms and going through tick-box exercises. You will hear people talk about that a lot.

The concern is that this very busy landscape is distracting from what it is there to do, which is to improve quality of care. I was asked by the Department of Health and Social Care to look at that landscape. I was asked to focus on six organisations, which are listed in my report, of which HSSIB was one. Across the six—of course, six is a small number out of that 150—I was asked to look at where there were opportunities for rationalisation and simplification. The observation was that colleagues in HSSIB have some great skills and capabilities in carrying out investigations into healthcare, highly complementary to the work of the CQC, which is equally there to understand how well different organisations are performing, to give the public confidence, to give ratings and to identify problems, and therefore putting those two organisations together would create significant synergies and opportunities for them both to work well.

[Dr Johnson]

Q What about the risks of that—the conflict?

Dr Dash: I do not see a conflict. I think they are complementary and this is all about improving the regulatory landscape in the healthcare system.

[Karin Smyth]

Q As you outlined in your review, there are 150 organisations in this area. How do you see the new patient experience directorate in the Department working to give confidence in this area and to try to make sense of some of that and improve it?

Dr Dash: One of the things that I observed when I was doing the review, and that I have observed even more so now that I am in post, is that we do not have effective mechanisms of really learning from patients and patient experience. If I compare how the NHS works with how other large organisations in our country work, we are not systematically collecting patient information, we are not looking at that in detail, we are not segmenting it into different groups of people, and we are not systematically bringing it into board meetings, which is where it should be in order to drive improvement. We are hoping, or expecting, that the new director of patient experience will take a real leadership role in this and will improve the way in which the centre works but, more importantly, will be working with organisations right across the NHS to build those skills and capabilities, and to put patient experience feedback and improvement in patient experience right at the centre of every discussion on improvement.

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[The Chair]

We will now hear evidence from the King’s Fund and National Voices. Again, I fear that we will have to stick to the timings, as we have very limited time. We have until 10.25 am for this session. Could you please identify yourselves for the record?

Sarah Woolnough: I am Sarah Woolnough, chief executive at the King’s Fund.

Jacob Lant: I am Jacob Lant, chief exec of National Voices.

[Dr Johnson]

Q Sarah, the King’s Fund report said that the potential cost savings of abolishing NHS England

“would be minimal in the context of the entire NHS budget”.

Many MPs across the House have struggled to get numbers and costings in questions both oral and written, particularly in relation to staff redundancies. We have not received information on the full arrangements of where NHS England’s functions are going to go yet. How can we be sure that its abolition will save any money at all?

Sarah Woolnough: I think, on the basis of the question, we do not know. Our worry has been about the opportunity cost. The Government, when in opposition, said that they would not launch wholescale reorganisation, because they understood the potential opportunity cost on time and other resources. As this has played out, taking longer than anticipated, we have had multiple examples of teams left in limbo about where they will end up in the target operating model. Our ongoing concern has been, “Is the benefit worth the cost?”

[Dr Johnson]

Q Yes, although yesterday we received an answer to a written parliamentary question saying that the abolition of NHS England is causing no disruption to the development of new services. That is the Government’s view.

Sarah Woolnough: It is inevitable that, in any large-scale change in an organisation, there will be opportunity cost. These arguments were very well rehearsed by the previous Secretary of State. He undertook personally that he would not follow this course of action, exactly because these things take longer and cost more, and because the benefit realisation case is not always clear.

It is also quite hard to tell—we have grappled with this as a think-tank—whether there is good evidence of what you are delivering at the end, and whether the benefits will be realised as you stated they would be up front. It is harder to get the granular evidence and costings to prove the case, but our ongoing concern has been whether you need to wholescale reorganise to drive the sorts of benefits that the Government have said they want to deliver.

We absolutely understand and agree with those who say, “Let’s reduce duplication. Let’s streamline. Let’s make sure that we’re getting value for money and spending taxpayers’ money wisely.” Do you need to launch a large reorganisation—a mass rearranging of the deck chairs of this nature? Our view has been, “You shouldn’t and you don’t.”

[Dr Johnson]

Q Thank you, Sarah. That was also the view of the Darzi report. He said that it was “neither desirable nor necessary”.

Jacob, what effect will the abolition of Healthwatch have on people’s confidence in the independence and reliability of views of patient experiences?

Jacob Lant: First, it is important to note that we know that there are people who are reluctant to come forward and share their poor experiences of care with the NHS directly. They fear retribution if they complain or speak up. Research by Healthwatch has shown that about one in five people experience poor care, so a significant proportion of people are unwilling to come forward and speak to statutory agencies. That will be concentrated in communities who are particularly marginalised—those who already lack trust in institutions. There is a clear case already that there will be a group for whom the lack of independence will be a real concern.

The second point is about the unsolicited feedback that is gathered by the Healthwatch network. Dr Dash and others have talked about how the system does lots of engagement itself, and how it could therefore surely take over those functions. But the system engages on its terms: it is about service reconfiguration that it wants to do, or about trying to gather experiences on a particular topic in which it is interested. Healthwatch allows an opportunity for continual listening and engagement with communities, where they can speak up about anything that is affecting them, from dentistry to patient transport and administration of care. Those issues are not necessarily on the system’s agenda. As I see it, under the changes that will disappear.

[Dr Johnson]

Q The Bill requires that Healthwatch be abolished, to an extent, and that local authorities do their own inpatient engagement instead, but they do not seem to be mandated to do so in quite the same way. Local authorities are under financial pressure. Do you believe that such engagement will happen at all, or to the same extent that it does now?

Jacob Lant: There are a few points on that. The narrative around the Bill is that Healthwatch is being abolished and its functions lifted and shifted across to local authorities and ICBs. That is not the case. We lose a number of important functions.

For example, the signposting support that Healthwatch provides will disappear so patients and care users will not have that to help them to understand how to navigate local services. I mentioned the unsolicited feedback that is gathered; that function will disappear. The outreach into communities, particularly marginalised communities, will disappear. The voice for patients and communities on health and wellbeing boards disappears, so there is no feed into those local decision-making bodies. There are several places where there is not a direct lift and shift across. That is a concern, and the Committee should probe it further.

On the resourcing point, at least local authorities will get part of the existing funding for Healthwatch to support their functions in that space. Under the Department’s impact assessment, ICBs will not get any funding from the current pot. That represents a 50% cut in the resourcing for listening to patients and communities, which is a concern.

[Karin Smyth]

Q Accepting what you have said about delays with staff—we absolutely recognise that—do you think that the abolition of NHS England is the right thing to do?

Sarah Woolnough: As an organisation, we have taken the view that we would not necessarily relitigate the decision. I think you can argue it both ways. I understand the desire to reduce duplication and to have clearer lines of accountability. Our concern has been the opportunity cost and everything that you are not doing at the time that you are spending so much energy and resource driving the abolition through.

Jacob Lant: I would echo everything Sarah says. From the work that we do, we see that decision making is taking longer, programmes are taking longer and it is taking longer to secure an impact on things. That is very frustrating, and underpinned by the massive change that is ongoing. Let us take as an example a programme exploring the experience of waiting for hospital care—of being stuck on waiting lists. Jim Mackey spoke about that at the NHS ConfedExpo last week. It is a major focus for the NHS and new guidance is expected by the end of the month. We have been waiting for that since 2021. The most recent effort towards it has been about 18 months. I can only think that drags on because we have so much other change going on in the system. I wish we focused more on doing things directly for patient care.

--- Later in debate ---

[The Chair]

We shall now hear evidence from the Academy of Medical Royal Colleges and the Institute of General Practice Management. Once again, I am afraid we have to stick to the timings. This session will end at 10.55 am. Will the witnesses briefly introduce themselves for the record?

Kay Keane: I am Kay Keane, a full-time practice manager at Urban Village medical practice in Manchester, and the chair of the Institute of General Practice Management.

Dr Dickson: I am Jeanette Dickson, the current chair of the Academy of Medical Royal Colleges, a past president of the Royal College of Radiologists and a practising consultant clinical oncologist.

[Dr Johnson]

Q I should perhaps reiterate that I am a member of the Royal College of Paediatrics and Child Health. Dr Dickson, NHS England has responsibility for workforce and workforce planning. How will the Bill affect that, and what effect is the delayed and delayed and delayed workforce plan having on the ability to plan the workforce now and for the future?

Dr Dickson: I would go back to some of the comments that have been made before. It is the opportunity cost at the moment. We know that the workforce plan is being worked on in the background, but when you are unsure what the operating and delivery model will formally look like, there is a difficulty in seeing what the workforce for that will be. We are also talking about massive changes in the way we think about care delivery—movement into the community and a different way of working—so we need a different workforce.

Therefore, we need to put in some work to look at how curricula drive a different type of workforce, how we train people to work in a different way and how we empower them to see the opportunities to work in that way, when they do not have actual role models. We need a culture shift anyway, whatever is happening, but the abolition of NHS England is in many ways increasing the time. Things need to move, and they are moving, but they are not necessarily moving as fast as they should.

[Dr Johnson]

Q So, in essence, the fact that NHS England is being abolished, whether that is the right or wrong thing to do, will have an effect on the delivery of new services?

Dr Dickson: We are delivering services as normal, but that head space and the innovation to see what the future should be and to work towards that future actively are limited by not knowing what that future looks like.

Kay Keane: We do not know what the left shift that we keep hearing about looks like; we do not know what that is for practices. In general practice, we are very practical—we get on with what is in front of us—so the big organisational changes do not have a huge effect on the day-to-day seeing of patients and organising that, but understanding what is around us does.

[Dr Johnson]

Q I want to move on to the single patient record. Do you feel that general practice has had enough information about its role in terms of who is responsible, who is accountable, who will be editing and who will be responsible for checking that the editors are right on this single patient record?

Dr Dickson: The legislation is very much an enabler for a single patient record. The devil in the detail there is not entirely true. In my experience, if you ask most patients if they would like a single patient record, they feel that it is already there. They do not understand that we do not have the ability to share their data in a way that works for them. Therefore, the idea of a single patient record is very much a lodestone for medical practitioners and most patients. When you talk them through the detail of how you achieve that and who owns the data, it is a much trickier issue for many, including the professionals, but also the public.

Kay Keane: I agree. The detail is not there at all. At the moment, we look after the data that is in the GP summary care record. That creates lots of questions for our patients. They will see information in there that they are not sure about or that they want help with. They will perhaps be able to read some of their hospital letters within that record. However, lots of patients have a variety of health inequalities that might mean they cannot access that data. In general practice, our non-clinical staff often help them to navigate their way around all that information. We also have patients who will read something in their record on which they want clarity—maybe something that happened a long time ago that they cannot remember and want explaining to them.

All those things take time. Where will the responsibility for that go? It takes an awful lot of resources in general practice to educate and support patients and to help them navigate their appointments and the letters coming through. Where will that responsibility sit? At the moment, it is of course with the GPs, but practically it is practice managers, up and down the country, who take on the day-to-day responsibility.

[Dr Johnson]

Q I have one small question. Dr Dickson, even in paediatrics I have looked after patients who have ring binder after ring binder of notes. Clearly, when seeing a patient for 20 or 30 minutes in clinic, there is not time to read ring binders and ring binders of notes. To what extent will the single patient record oblige clinicians to have read and understood everything for every appointment? Is that really practical?

Dr Dickson: You need to believe that you have found out enough about a patient to deliver their healthcare. I would turn it around and say it is very difficult to deliver appropriate care to somebody on whom you do not have full information.

[Dr Johnson]

The question is, how do you find it within the way it is structured?

[Karin Smyth]

Q Dr Dickson, can you describe how you think the single patient record could be transformative for patient care, given where we are?

Dr Dickson: Part of it has been touched on by the previous panel, regarding patient experience. Patients come in, they give the same story again and again to different healthcare professionals in different settings, and that frustrates them. Patients are human. I forget what I did last week; patients forget what they did last week, let alone what they did 10 or 20 years ago, although that is still relevant, increasingly. If you go on holiday to Whitby, fall over and break something, have tests done and come back to your house in central London, you cannot see information about that; you cannot share that information.

The opportunity to see everything on a patient across primary care, secondary care and social care is a huge benefit to them in terms of their view of seamless care, but also in terms of safety. I have a chronic health condition; part of my care is delivered by general practice and part by a hospital. At the start of the pandemic I was exceptionally clinically vulnerable; it took the NHS six weeks to tell me that. That is not safe.

--- Later in debate ---

[The Chair]

We will now hear oral evidence from the Health Services Safety Investigations Body. Again, we must stick to the timings, but we are doing rather well at the moment—let us hope we can stick to that. Would you be kind enough to identify yourself for the benefit of the record?

Dr Benneyworth: Good morning, everyone. My name is Rosie Benneyworth and I am the interim chief executive of the Health Services Safety Investigations Body.

[Dr Johnson]

Q Good morning, Dr Benneyworth. There seems to have been a bit of a muddle in how some of this has been expressed this morning. For clarity, could you explain how a regulator is different from an investigatory body, please?

Dr Benneyworth: We are a safety investigator. We have been modelled on other industries that have very successful safety records, and we have learned from those other industries. We investigate patient safety concerns of national significance, and we make recommendations into national bodies about what needs to be improved. We make very few recommendations—only small numbers—into those national bodies, but they are about what needs to change from a systemic point of view to make patient care better. That is underpinned by learning from other industries—the safety science, the human factors and the real knowledge about how you improve safety—and we are trying to embed that in the NHS.

Regulation is very different. That looks at individual providers. I used to the work for the CQC and regulate primary care. It looks at how individual providers are functioning. It makes recommendations to individual providers about what needs to change, and it judges an individual’s performance against a set of regulations. The two functions are completely different.

The other important thing for us is that we do not attribute any blame or liability in our investigations. That is vital, because we learn from what we see. We learn from those investigations, and we are trying to embed a continuous learning environment and culture within the system.

[Dr Johnson]

Q Earlier on it was asked what would happen if the HSSIB was rolled into the CQC, yet the problem with the healthcare was a failure of the CQC to properly regulate or investigate. I was a little bit lost for words at that point. How would that work in practice? Or would it not?

Dr Benneyworth: I think it will be very difficult. At the moment, we have the ability, being an independent organisation, to investigate any part of the system where there is a concern. That includes the national system. In several of our investigations we have looked at how the national system, the regulatory system and NHS England are working, and how other parts of the system are working. We are unique in that, because a lot of those bodies do not get the scrutiny from any other part of the system, and they do not get that oversight and ability to look and understand how the national system works together.

If we were a directorate in the CQC, as outlined in the legislation, it would be very difficult for us to comment on how the CQC was looking at different areas and how it was managing certain aspects of safety. I think there is also concern about our ability to make effective recommendations to the CQC if we are a directorate within it.

[Dr Johnson]

Q Another question that has been raised about independence is the choice of what to investigate. The Secretary of State can direct, but the impact assessment suggests that the Government intend to direct the vast majority of investigations. Is it currently the case, or has it been the case in the past, that the vast majority has been directed by the Secretary of State, or has that been unusual?

Dr Benneyworth: That would be unusual. We have undertaken one very detailed set of investigations into mental health in-patients, which was directed by a previous Secretary of State. We would very much want to hear the patient safety concerns of the Secretary of State to understand what we investigate. We work extensively with stakeholders across the system. We want to be a constructive part of the system. We want to investigate the areas that people are concerned about. We work extensively with all stakeholders to hear their patient safety concerns and make sure that our investigations are informed by that knowledge and by what we are hearing from patients and families, as well as staff working in the system.

However, we need to make sure that we have the independence to investigate what we are hearing about. It is very important that we are not stopped investigating something, and it would be concerning if someone told us not to investigate something. We need to maintain that independence.

[Dr Johnson]

Q Earlier in this session we heard concerns that you keep some information secret. You have the safe space legislation in place. Does that improve or weaken safety?

Dr Benneyworth: There is no doubt that it helps to improve safety. That is something we have learned from 100 years of the air accidents investigation branch, which has had an immense impact on aviation safety, the rail accident investigation branch, and many others. Safe space, or protected disclosures, means that people can talk freely to us about things that have gone wrong without fear of sanctions, being told off by their line manager or losing their jobs.

We hear all the time about people who have ended up losing their jobs or getting into trouble because they have raised concerns. We see in our investigations that we are still working in a culture of fear. In an ideal world, that would not be the case and people would feel able to speak up openly about what has gone wrong, but we are working in a culture where people are not in that place.

This enables staff working in the service and patients to talk to us freely about what they see on a daily basis that they think needs to change. Patients sometimes worry that they will be treated differently and not get the same care after they raise things. This enables patients to talk to us in the knowledge that they will not be named. The patients we work with who have been harmed from healthcare tell us, “We don’t want this happening to other families. We’ve been through this awful, terrible time, and we want to change the system.” This enables them to talk to us.

We do not name individuals in our reports and do not name organisations. We are now in a stage where we are growing that trust. We are coming up to being three years old as an organisation, and we are growing that trust with the system. When we launch an investigation, organisations right across the country say, “Please come and see what’s happening here. Please come and talk to us.” I worry that that might be impacted by the changes ahead.

[Karin Smyth]

Q What are the key things we need to get right to ensure that safety investigations in general and safe space in particular are made to happen in the new arrangements?

Dr Benneyworth: The two key things have been touched on already. The first is the independence to choose what we investigate and make recommendations to any part of the system. The second area is around protected disclosure. The legislation needs to be much clearer around the protection of protected disclosure materials, to give the system confidence in our ability to hold and not share confidential information.

At the moment, the legislation talks about connected individuals having access to the protected materials. The clauses outlining connected individuals mean that anyone working in the CQC could potentially have access to protected materials. That is a very large number of people, and it will create risk. There needs to be a legal duty on the CQC to protect the safe space. There is also something about maintaining an identity that gives people confidence that when they are talking to us, their information will not automatically go into the CQC regulatory functions.

Some of that may be about perception rather than the reality of what is happening, but as we know, perception is very important. People will perceive that we are part of the regulatory system even if we have the same email address, for example.

--- Later in debate ---

[The Chair]

We shall now hear oral evidence from Sir Jeremy Hunt MP. Again, we must stick to the timings and we have to finish at 11.25, so we have got just 15 minutes to put our colleague through the mincer. For the benefit of the record, would you like to identify yourself?

Sir Jeremy Hunt: Jeremy Hunt, former Health Secretary.

[Dr Johnson]

Q Good morning, Sir Jeremy, and thank you for coming to the Committee this morning. You are our longest serving Health Secretary and you focused much of your tenure on patient safety. I understand you are still part of the all-party parliamentary group on patient safety, so that focus is continuing now. How does HSSIB improve patient safety and what are your thoughts on whether moving it into the CQC is a good idea?

Sir Jeremy Hunt: As the Committee knows, the principle of HSSIB was modelled on the airline industry, where the air accidents investigation branch has a superb track record of identifying safety breaches. There is a very good rail accident investigation branch that does the same for the railway industry, to make sure lessons are learned. My concern was that the NHS and actually health systems across the world are not very good at learning lessons when there are tragedies.

The heart of what the AAIB has is this concept of safe space, where people can talk to it completely without fear that what they say will get passed on or used against them in a court of law, and so they are very open about what may have gone wrong, allowing a rapid conclusion to be drawn. So that was the principle behind it.

I am against the transfer of HSSIB to the CQC for two reasons. First, I am worried that it will undermine that safe space principle. I think the safe space principle is the bit of HSSIB that is working very well and I am worried this will undermine that. Secondly, the Bill does not do anything to address the bit that is not working well, and that bit is that the NHS is still very poor on acting on recommendations that are made, and by the way not just by HSSIB but by public inquiries, prevention of future death notices, by maternity and newborn safety investigations reports.

We are the world champion at doing inquiries and reports. Unfortunately we are also the world champion at allowing those reports to gather dust without anything actually happening. What I would really like the Bill to do is something, whether through the National Quality Board or whatever, so that the public know that when HSSIB or MNSI or a Select Committee or a public inquiry makes a recommendation, the Government have to make a formal decision within a limited time period—“yes we are going to do this” or “no we are not”; no sitting on the fence about “this is under review and we will consider it, come back to it”, but a positive or a negative decision—and then if it is a positive decision, a timeline by when it will be implemented. That is not a party-political point, because this is a problem that was not fixed when I was Health Secretary and it has remained outstanding for many years. Families just put their heads in their hands in despair that they get these inquiries, get these recommendations, and nothing changes.

[Dr Johnson]

Q We have the Hughes report that is two years from recommendation and we have not got an answer to that one yet. Our previous witness talked about a repository for recommendations—a sort of national hub to put them all into. Do you have any thoughts on that?

Sir Jeremy Hunt: What HSSIB has done is positive but it is still trying to solve a bureaucratic problem with more bureaucracy. What there needs to be is a formal system with a legal obligation on the Government. I felt this when I was chair of the Select Committee as well—that Governments would kick recommendations that were awkward, usually things that cost money that they did not want to spend money on, into the long grass without actually saying whether they agreed or disagreed with them. There is a terrible phrase that is often used: “agree in principle”. I may have been the one who invented it, but it is really bad for accountability because it allows the Government to say, “Yes, we really understand where you are coming from, but we are not going to put any timeline or give you any commitment as to whether we are actually going to make the change”. I think we need a proper system—and if it is the National Quality Board, that would probably be a good place—for formally assessing all public inquiry recommendations, all Select Committee recommendations and HSSIB recommendations, and saying, “Yes, we’re going to do this” or “No, we’re not”, but if it is yes, it will happen by this date with this person being responsible.

Health Bill (Second sitting)

Caroline Johnson Excerpts

Committee stage
Tuesday 16th June 2026 Public Bill Committees

[The Chair]

We will first hear oral evidence from the NHS Alliance and the Royal Berkshire NHS foundation trust. We have until 2.30 pm for this panel. Gentlemen, I will be grateful if you would be kind enough, from left to right, to introduce yourselves for the sake of the record.

Sir Ciarán Devane: I am Ciarán Devane, chief executive of the NHS Alliance.

James Blythe: I am James Blythe, chief executive of the Royal Berkshire NHS foundation trust.

[Dr Caroline Johnson (Sleaford and North Hykeham) (Con)]

Q60 Good afternoon, gentlemen. My first question is to the NHS Alliance. In a survey published last month, your organisation found that two thirds of trusts and integrated care board leaders are likely to need to cut or reduce patient services to meet their financial plans. Given the financial pressure that ICBs are clearly under, what do you make of their ability to become more strategic commissioners and to innovate?

Sir Ciarán Devane: First of all, the ICBs have had their 50% cuts and they are in the middle of reorienting themselves and joining up, so there has been a degree of distraction. The second thing, though, is the idea that the ICBs should be strategic commissioners, working well to commission plans that genuinely reform services. I think we all support that, and the move to give them GP commissioning, pharmacy provision and so on. All of that is good.

The challenge will be that the baseline for the current year is not necessarily the outturn of last year, because there were some one-off savings in that, so our members across the NHS are saying that this is the year when the trade-offs have to be made. Some of those trade-offs will be good, in the sense of we can reconfigure this service, move some services into the community and do some good things—I am sure we will hear about some of those—but some of them will require difficult decisions to do with whether we shut down the service in this hospital and double down on the one over there. Making those decisions will need political cover locally as well as nationally, so we are in a tricky place.

What we are saying is that we all understand the state of the public finances and suchlike, but we need some capital to allow places to reconfigure and redesign their services, whether that is new IT, AI or diagnostic services. Those are the things that will allow the transformations to take place, which is where the productivity and the money will come from. What we and chief executives, finance directors and chairs across the NHS are saying is that there is only so much heavy lifting that asking people to run around the hamster wheel a bit quicker can do. We have to make some of those big decisions.

[Dr Johnson]

Q The ICBs and trusts are going to operate under the spectre of direct intervention by the Secretary of State, who is taking much more interventional powers in this Bill. What effect will that have on the health system?

Sir Ciarán Devane: We are unclear and concerned about what the nature of those interventions could be. In theory, we fully understand that the Secretary of State and the Government need the ability to say, “In the unlikely event an ICB goes rogue, we have to have the right to sort it out,” but we need to guard against the alternative of a Secretary of State who is intervening too much and making decisions on particular services, commissioning decisions or reconfigurations. We want the legislation to prescribe the circumstances in which the board of an ICB can be overruled. That should be transparent, it should be published, and intervention should be rare. We recognise that that backstop needs to be there for the sake of good governance, but we need checks and balances. The powers are needed if somebody is operating outside their licence, but we need to guard against the Secretary of State or the regions or the new departments reaching in and second-guessing local decision making. If this is really about empowering strategic commissioners to do what is right for their populations, working closely with local authorities, interventions that second guess their decisions need to be very rare.

[Dr Johnson]

Q Mr Blythe, what value does your council of governors add to your trust?

James Blythe: Councils of governors across the NHS have added significant value since they were instituted and brought into foundation trusts. The foundation trust councils of governors play two roles. The first relates to the appointment and holding to account of the non-executive directors on the board. The second relates to securing public and patient involvement and voice in the organisation and the management of our services.

Since councils of governors were instituted, we have developed increasingly sophisticated ways of getting public and patient voice into services. If you look at innovations such as maternity and neonatal voices partnerships, which really involve service users in how services are developed on the ground and are very close to the teams that are running them, that gives us different ways of involving patients and the public in services where possibly councils of governors have not been able to do in the past. Councils of governors have played a really important role in foundation trusts, but certainly in terms of that patient and public voice function, we have moved on as a system and developed more sophisticated ways of doing that.

[The Minister for Secondary Care (Karin Smyth)]

Q To pick up on Sir Ciarán’s comments about experiences being extremely rare, the changes in the Bill sit alongside changes to the national centre and clarity for ICBs, with very little change to providers. What would make the biggest difference to providers and commissioners to improve things?

Sir Ciarán Devane: The biggest difference should be that the local providers and ICBs are incentivised to get together to make collective commissioning decisions. That means that, whether you call it a neighbourhood, footprint or local authority area, they make those decisions based on population evidence, which is why the single patient record is important, and they have the autonomy to do that with a lighter-touch centre that is set in guidance saying, “Look, this is broadly what we’d like you to do.” That guidance should be developed in conjunction with the people who have to do the job on the ground. That is what it should be; if the Bill allows that, that is fantastic.

The second bit is that the mechanism—it is not necessarily a legislative thing—by which the NHS is managed day-to-day will still need to exist. Who is going to be keeping an eye on things 24/7, 365 days a year? What happens if there is a fire—maybe even a literal fire—in a hospital? How is the NHS going to be corralled and brought in to help out a trust where something like that happens? That management function—the day-to-day operational management—needs to remain strong enough in the target operating model, as it is called, in the Department. If it is not, that could prove very difficult. Not necessarily day to day or in the short term, but in the long term, that bit has to be got right. One of the big risks of the legislation—there is not a legislative solution to this risk—is how day-to-day management works. We all have views on the relative strengths of the regions, of NHS England and so on, but how is that going to work in the new world? If one loses “grip”—that word is used a lot—then the risk to service delivery is quite high, and the risk to financial control is even higher.

James Blythe: Put simply, as an NHS organisational leader I think there are always a lot of things from which you can take your guidance on what you should be prioritising and focusing on as an organisation. If the result of this legislation is that we as organisational leaders have a really tightly defined set of priorities to deliver, articulated as far as possible as outcomes for local people and our population as a whole in terms of waiting times, quality and improving population health, I think that will allow us locally to get on with the partnerships that we already have as a day-to-day part of running local public services. We can focus on that very small set of things and do them really well.

Over the last year, there has been a sense of increasing clarity about those priorities as NHS England and the Department of Health and Social Care have worked more closely together. The NHS has delivered on those priorities to a large degree, but it all comes down, as my colleague says, to how senior officials and Ministers operate the system, because there is to be significantly more freedom to set priorities, and to design and run the system that essentially delivers them for the NHS. How that is done, retaining clarity about the things that we want to have delivered through the system and empowering local systems to do them will be really important.

--- Later in debate ---

[The Chair]

We will now hear oral evidence from the Patients Association, Together for Short Lives and Healthwatch England. We have until only 3.10 pm for this panel of three people. Would you be kind enough to introduce yourselves for the record? Let us start from the left.

James Cooper: Hello. I am James Cooper, associate director of external affairs and membership at Together for Short Lives.

Sarah Tilsed: Hello. I am Sarah Tilsed, head of partnerships and involvement at the Patients Association.

Professor Croisdale-Appleby: Good afternoon. I am David Croisdale-Appleby, chair of Healthwatch England.

[Dr Johnson]

Q My first question, which is about specialist commissioning, is for James. Your charity is involved with palliative care for children. What effect do you think the changes in the Bill will have on the commissioning of very specialist, low volume and high complexity services?

James Cooper: I think that there are both opportunities and threats for families of seriously ill children and the professionals and services that provide them with palliative and end-of-life care. When we talk about seriously ill children, we mean children with life-threatening conditions, life-shortening conditions and severe medical complexity. They have a range of emotional, psychological, social and physical needs that need to be met across health, education and social care services.

Part of that care involves specialist children’s palliative care, which is predominantly provided at a regional level by teams led by specialist paediatric palliative care consultants. They often have Grid training, and there are not many across the UK—there are only about 24 whole-time equivalents. They are often based at children’s hospitals or children’s hospices and are often co-located across both. These specialist teams also comprise senior nurses and other specialists involved in emotional, psychological and practical support for families.

Our issue is that these services are often quite patchily commissioned at the moment; even though there has been a specialised children’s palliative care specification from NHS England since 2012, we think that money and commissioning has flowed to these services to only a very limited extent. For example, we have a successful service in the east of England, which provides 24/7 end-of-life care at home for seriously ill children, supported by nurses and these specialist consultants. But the provision is really patchy across England.

The Bill presents some opportunities through the additional powers for the offices for pan-integrated care board commissioning—the OPICs—to mandate ICBs to work together to commission these services. We would like to see that. However, because of the small numbers but highly complex needs of these children, the services often need to be planned and funded at a regional level, although they often are not.

We are concerned by the increased devolution to ICBs because of the extent to which other children’s palliative care services—the core services—are being commissioned at the moment. We have a range of evidence that shows that it is possible in some areas for that care to be commissioned well—for example, 19% of ICBs currently commission end-of-life care for children at home 24/7, provided by nurses and specialist consultants. However, at the moment ICBs are not taking on their full functions and implementing national guidance.

I would like to see much more rigour and accountability from the centre, the Government, to make sure that such specialised commissioning works for this particular group of complex children and families.

[Dr Johnson]

Q My second question is for Professor Croisdale-Appleby. The CQC has been reported to be in a relatively difficult place, facing challenges at the moment. It is being asked to take on event healthcare supervision and roll the HSSIB within it. Is that asking too much?

Professor Croisdale-Appleby: Obviously, I am not here to speak on behalf of the CQC, although I am a non-executive director of the CQC. You are quite right that it has been in a challenging position, from which it is taking very substantial steps to recover, principally in changing back to a system of having chief inspectors who are very knowledgeable about their particular area of expertise that they can apply. The Department has asked the CQC to take on additional responsibilities in its regulatory capability and, to some degree, in an inspectorate capability. I cannot really agree that it is too much for the CQC to take on, but a substantial amount of work is certainly being added to the CQC.

[Dr Johnson]

Q What are your thoughts on the abolition of Healthwatch? Does Healthwatch have teeth? Does it influence people? Is it influencing the decision makers? Could it be reformed or should it be abolished?

Professor Croisdale-Appleby: It is quite interesting to think that we have had 52 years of independent organisations representing the patient voice, as well as that of the carer. I think everyone here will be aware of it, but there was a step change in impact after the Mid Staffs situation, when Healthwatch—both Healthwatch England and the 153 local healthwatch bodies—was set up. We have produced over 20,000 reports; if anyone is interested in accessing any of them, we can certainly provide access by the end of the week.

Since I joined Healthwatch in 2023, in my view it has been very successful in reaching out to those communities often referred to as “difficult to reach”—diasporas and so on, where we all know the health inequalities are often the deepest. I think Healthwatch has been very successful in ensuring that we have not just listened to the easy-to-reach groups but deliberately sought information and views from those other parts of our society, which form an increasing part of it.

The research being done with those communities has recognised that there is quite often an investment of some six months for one of our people go into a particular community—whether a cultural community or an ethnic community—and win the confidence of the people so that they actually talk to us about the problems. I have to ask how that depth and focus is to be replicated under the arrangements suggested in the Bill. That is my extended first point about Healthwatch.

I think we have had a lot of impact, and I use the word “impact” as a researcher myself. Impact is measured by the change that you make. When we produce reports, whether national or local, we include recommendations. The important thing is that we always follow up on those recommendations and ask, “Are they being implemented? Are they being listened to?” Each year, we produce a report that says, “What change has occurred as a result of the recommendations that we make?”

I think that is extremely valuable, because it is about independence and holding organisations to account. Clearly, those organisations report in line function to the Department of Health, NHSE or local authorities, but we are not only the ears of the patient and the carer; at times, we hold feet to the flames over whether something sensible is being done. We do not give up on this; we pursue it down the rabbit hole.

[The Chair]

Q Ms Tilsed, you have been very patient. Before I call the Minister, do you want to add anything to what has already been said?

Sarah Tilsed: Professor Croisdale-Appleby said absolutely everything that I was about to say, so I will make just a few points without going back over everything.

The main thing is that we need to make sure that this does not divert attention from the main priorities, which obviously relate to patients: timely access to care, clear communication and involvement in decisions about their treatment. As the professor said, we need a truly independent patient voice. Abolishing healthwatches creates a fragmentation of patient engagement responsibilities across ICBs and local authorities. The evidence we see every day consistently shows that patients are not feeling informed, involved or treated as equal partners in care.

We need to ensure that any replacement model is, as Professor Croisdale-Appleby said, genuinely independent, transparently accountable and resourced equally across the country, to ensure that we do not lose sight of the people it is supposed to serve. Trust is really important here, and patients trust independent organisations. I feel that that trust might be lost in local communities.

Lastly, this is, as Professor Croisdale-Appleby said, about reporting. We need to consider the way that patient feedback data is reported, and ensure that that is not getting lost. Themes and demographics still need to be included to make sure that we know who we are listening to, and that services are provided for those who feed back and those who do not—usually, it is those who are not feeding back who we really need to consider.

--- Later in debate ---

[The Chair]

Good afternoon. We shall now hear oral evidence from the Local Government Association, the Association of Directors of Adult Social Services, and South East London ICS. We have until 3.50 pm for this panel. Could you identify yourselves for the benefit of the record, please?

Maria Higson: My name is Maria Higson. I would like to state for the record that I am here to bring to the panel the experience of a director of transformation within the South East London ICS. I do not represent the organisation, but hopefully I bring that experience.

Councillor Wright: I am Councillor Megan Wright. I am the vice-chair of the Local Government Association health and wellbeing committee.

Sally Burlington: I am Sally Burlington. I am chief executive of the Association of Directors of Adult Social Services, which represents directors of adult social care in England.

[Dr Johnson]

Q Does removing local authority representation from ICBs weaken the link with local elected representatives, or is it beneficial?

Councillor Wright: I assume that was directed at me, as I am a representative in local government. We feel it is going to weaken it. Having someone on the ICB is useful to help shape health strategy and ensure that the wider determinants of health are taken into consideration when planning health. We would like to see some kind of structure where local authorities and other partners involved in determining health from a wider perspective have a voice within the NHS delivering health locally.

[Dr Johnson]

Q Thank you. Maria, how do you think the Bill and all the changes around ICB funding will affect local services? To what extent does the process in itself cause disruption—or not?

Maria Higson: Whenever we introduce these changes into the system we have to remember that we are talking about a group of professionals who are trying to deliver for the NHS, citizens and patients. This Bill was first announced back in March 2025. It would be fair to say that since then, for an awful lot of people, there have been organisational and personal unknowns. The best intentions to deliver against the agenda and the three shifts can be hindered by that uncertainty. As with everything, implementation is absolutely critical.

[Dr Johnson]

Q Thank you. Sally, what would be the impact of the removal of the pooling of better care funding among local authorities and ICBs?

Sally Burlington: The better care fund is a really important source of funding for statutory core services. It funds about 80% of social care—in terms of the use of the better care fund by social care, 80% is statutory. While the ability to use it differently could be really valuable, we would be worried about diverting it from those core services into other functions. We have also benefited from the fact that the better care fund is uplifted at the same rate as NHS funding. If we lost that, it would be significant, because social care is systematically less well funded over time compared with some other services.

[Dr Johnson]

So you are losing a protection with the Bill.

Sally Burlington: Exactly.

[Karin Smyth]

Q Councillor Wright, the Bill will essentially abolish NHS England. Do you have any comments about how that works at the moment in terms of local government? How can we unlock some of the potential in the Bill, with the changes to NHS England, with regard to local government, particularly on health and wellbeing boards and the entire place agenda?

Councillor Wright: The main problem the abolition of NHS England has caused is upheaval and uncertainty with our health partners. Many of the health partners at our health and wellbeing board meetings or our place committee meetings are almost saying to us, “I don’t know if I will be here at the next meeting.” Such turmoil in the changeover creates instability from a lack of being able to plan what will happen next. That is one of the challenges that we feel. We are working with our health partners and getting assurances that there will be continuity, but it is quite hard when the person we are working with is changing.

We are really excited about neighbourhood health sitting under health and wellbeing boards. We love the idea of neighbourhood health looking at the wider determinants of health and having a very localised health response to the issues that that community needs to help it. One of our anxieties is that a lot of ICBs have become bigger and have less connection with the place. They are also shrinking; I think NHS England is losing 30%—

Maria Higson: Larger geography, fewer people!

Councillor Wright: Exactly. We have had a letter from our ICB giving us the heads-up that they might not be able to guarantee that they can send the right person to our health and wellbeing committees, which will obviously make it difficult to plan neighbourhood health.

The other challenge we find in neighbourhood health is that local authority boundaries might not necessarily match neighbourhood boundaries. I will give an example from Bracknell, where I live. Bracknell is very clearly a neighbourhood, but the south of the borough, which is within the Bracknell Forest council area, probably sits within Bracknell and Wokingham and a little bit within Reading. It will be hard to bring in true neighbourhoods with the current structure, but that is something we are working around, and we are hopeful that we will be able to sort it out.

--- Later in debate ---

[The Chair]

Thank you all very much for joining us.

[Dr Johnson]

Q My first question goes to all of you. In principle, the single patient record offers opportunity, but people have expressed reservations, as have each of your charities. What are your thoughts on the single patient record?

Paul Farmer: From the perspective of older people and people with long-term conditions, the single patient record will be, broadly speaking, welcomed. I will explain very briefly why. If you are an older person with multiple long-term conditions and you find yourself in hospital, you often have to explain your experience and health needs, time and again. That is often because of a lack of join-up between the current data systems. Single patient record means the individual patient does not need to repeat their stories or lived experience—and, more importantly, it allows clinicians to have a clear overview of an individual patient’s health records. There are issues that need to be considered, particularly around making sure that people are not digitally excluded, and I am sure that we will get into those, but at a high level we would welcome the introduction of a single patient record.

Kath Abrahams: There are some very similar themes for us. A lack of shared patient record is a particular issue in pregnancy and maternity. You are being seen by your GP, early pregnancy unit and maternity unit. You might have other conditions that affect pregnancy or could affect the outcome of your baby being born. At the moment those systems are very disjointed. The other piece in maternity, which will not come as a surprise to you, is that, if you have lost a baby, you end up having to retell your story over and over again and that can be very traumatic. Sometimes that can lead to people disengaging from care, but also in many cases being retraumatised.

We broadly welcome the single patient record, but with lots of caveats around people feeling able to trust the data and trust that their data is safe. Overall we are very supportive.

Emily Holzhausen: Again, similarly to my colleagues, we are supportive. When we ask unpaid carers what matters to them, sharing of information is really critical, but we have a slightly different perspective here.

First, carers would like to have access to the record, with the right permissions. That is not on the face of the Bill, but it is suggested that that may be covered in regulations, and we would like to see some assurances of that. It would change things, again, because of not having to retell information, which carers call “triggering” and “exhausting”. They will be more able to spot errors or things that are not quite right, which is important for the person they are caring for. As an unpaid carer, when you are responsible for caring for someone, that is a huge weight on your shoulders and you really want to make sure that it is being done right. Finally, most of us care remotely—we do not all live with the person that we care for. This could really help to transform carer’s lives and the pressure they feel.

I have one statistic for you: just under one in eight carers spend over 40 hours a month on NHS admin. If the NHS app and the single patient record can reduce that, that would change things. The only other point I would like to make is that where this tips over into social care, this is something that we need to build with social care and all those people who go across all these different services.

[Dr Johnson]

Q I have a question for Emily about digital exclusion and the app. What can be done to help people not to be digitally excluded? How do you see this working in areas of the country with poorer broadband connections, for example? Also, what about the record? Sharing your medical records is not an all-or-nothing thing, is it? It may be that someone is happy to share their current illness or current medical circumstance with their carer, but may perhaps want aspects of their history to remain a secret. Have you had any indications from the Government on how that might work?

Emily Holzhausen: Yes. That is a lot of different questions. It has to be done with the right permissions, with the patient being in control of their data—that is a very strongly held principle within the NHS. There will be situations where people do not have capacity and their primary carer, who might be their partner, their son or daughter, might need access. We have lasting power of attorney in England, which could be used as a mechanism, or other assurance mechanisms.

As for digital access, that is an issue that I am sure Paul will want to come on to. Especially when digital access costs money and we have people in poverty, we have called for that to be supported by Government to ensure that everybody has digital access. People have to feel confident about it. While we have seen a doubling in the number of carers using the NHS app to manage their own health and care in the past two years, there are key groups that are being excluded: older carers, people on lower incomes and people who feel less confident with technology, for a whole range of different reasons.

Some of this stuff is delivered very well through voluntary and community services—I know that Age UK has helped my family locally, for example, but I will stop there, because I am sure Paul will want to come in on that.

[The Chair]

Paul Farmer, you have been given the floor.

Paul Farmer: I would very much like to come in on this subject. We see probably the greatest risk and the greatest opportunity here, in the context of digital exclusion and digital inclusion. The risk of digital exclusion is that older people in particular, although it is not exclusively an older people’s issue, will lack the access to their own care record, as it is electronically based. We need to bear that in mind when we think about the roll-out of that and the availability of the content of that patient record to people who are digitally excluded.

I do think, however, that this is a significant opportunity. It is part of a much broader question about digital inclusion more generally, and inclusion into accessing public services more generally, which is a key theme of the work we are doing at Age UK. We had funds from DSIT to support the work of our local Age UKs, where we run a number of digital champions programmes—Members are very welcome to come and visit them at any time. We worked with 8,000 older people in a two-month period; we engaged more than 1,000 of that group into our digital champions programme, and two thirds of people took up the offer of engaging in a training module on accessing the NHS app.

In particular, we were able to enable people who are partially digitally excluded. We are publishing a report later, which we will share with the Committee in time, about the opportunities for people who are not fully excluded, but partially excluded. We think people are able to go on that journey, but it does need support. We encourage the Government to think about putting a really thorough programme of digital inclusion alongside the implementation of the single patient record, to support older people, people with long-term conditions, people with learning disabilities and other conditions who might need extra help and support to access the NHS app. There is a risk here of people being excluded, but also an opportunity for inclusion.

Mrs B, in Lincolnshire, was helped by Age UK Lincolnshire. She was a carer to her husband, who has had a stroke; she had a home visit from the local Age UK and they were able to set up the NHS app for her. She said she would not have been able to do that without that extra help and support.

[Dr Johnson]

Q As a Lincolnshire MP, I am delighted to know that that is operating, if not necessarily in my constituency, then certainly in the county. I have a question for Kath: how does the single patient record apply to maternity in terms of safeguarding and access to that sort of information? As an aside, this Bill allows the Secretary of State to set targets. How would you see that working in maternity care?

Kath Abrahams: On digital exclusion, the same risks apply, although there is a different age demographic. If you have somebody who has a particular disability, has English as a second language, or has difficulty reading, we need to ensure that alongside the single patient record we are not excluding people without meaning to. Having said that, there are real opportunities to reduce inequities as a result of this change, such as by ensuring that everyone’s information is there, and that people do not have to retell their story if they find it difficult to speak to their clinician.

What the single patient record will not do is solve all the problems found in the national maternity and neonatal investigation. An action plan will come out of that investigation, and it must be looked at really seriously. A single patient record does not replace compassionate care or somebody really being looked after well, but it can potentially provide a safer environment—I am very happy to go into detail on that.

The national maternity ambitions have expired, but we are pushing very hard for them to be restated. There is potentially an opportunity to use the data at a broader level to measure progress. If it was possible to use the single patient record to understand how things were going towards improvement, that could be very helpful.

[Karin Smyth]

Q I will follow on from Dr Johnson’s questions. You have all expressed support for the single patient record, which is great, but that is not universal. Obviously, the Bill has to be enacted for that measure to go forward. It would be helpful to hear about your current experiences in your different areas—older people, maternity and carers. Your examples gave a bit more detail on why not to have this, Ms Abrahams—let us not assume, because although the process of the Bill is to make this happen, we have heard some concerns today from people who do not want that. What is happening in your world that this will help with?

Kath Abrahams: Right now, the situation is really tricky and people are being failed in their pregnancy and maternity care. Women report constantly having to retell their story—highly sensitive or traumatic experiences of loss—and that repetition can happen across the early pregnancy unit and maternity services. There is a common misconception that the NHS is one system, so when they find that people in another bit of the system do not know something, that can be really frustrating and annoying, because they assume that it exists.

There is also a lack of continuity. A clinician can be completely unaware of a sensitive or traumatic experience that somebody has had, and there can also be genuine dangers in outcomes. We know from the reports into Morecambe Bay, Shrewsbury and Telford that the lack of joined-up sharing of information and good communication between different parts of the system has led to some really difficult outcomes, particularly if somebody also has gestational diabetes, for example, or another condition and they are taking a particular medication that could cause harm to an unborn baby.

There are lots of situations in which not having the complete history is preventing people from getting not only really good, compassionate care, but the safe care they need. If someone is in an emergency situation and they are bleeding out, or their baby is not moving as much as they should, there is not time to start from scratch; they might not be in a position to explain what is happening to them and what their history is. They might not even know all the relevant bits of their history. Having that complete record, if it was done really well, would give clinicians the information that would allow them to make really timely decisions. Maternity can often be high risk—I do not need to say that to you; you know that—but these are often fast-moving situations where time is absolutely of the essence.

Emily Holzhausen: To build on what I said earlier about the amount of co-ordination and admin that people do, I will just refer to some carers’ words. One said that if they had to phone, they would end up in a long waiting queue or having to travel to the GP in person. There are people juggling work and care, so this has real, everyday impacts on their lives and their time.

When I refer to errors, I mean things such as medication errors or diagnosis errors. When you care for someone with very complex conditions, you can have health appointments every week—sometimes twice a week—and it is so hard to stay on top of it. When I say it is so hard, and talk about unpaid carers, we know that caring is a social determinant of health: in itself it is a single factor for poorer health outcomes. We know that 600 people a day give up work to care.

We have done a report on the tipping point: what tips carers out of work? One such thing is social care; another is how they are treated in the health system. If we reduce the pressure on carers and put information at their fingertips to help them to manage care, we improve outcomes for everybody: the health and wellbeing of the carer and the safety of the person that they care for. People are trying to do their best in quite a difficult situation.

One of our members, Norman Phillips, has talked about that a lot. He was in contact with more than 24 professionals, knitting up care around his wife who had advanced multiple sclerosis and dementia. That is an incredible amount of co-ordination of care. You can see how a single patient record, as it is envisaged in the future, could really help to support people who provide care. It is critical, given that we have an ageing population, that we recognise and support families in what they do.

Paul Farmer: I would start by talking about people with long-term conditions. Let us bear in mind that by the time we are 65, 82% of us will have one long-term condition, and half of people aged 70-plus have more than one long-term condition. Most of those long-term conditions are diagnosed within primary care, but of course they have a huge impact on access to secondary care services. For a clinician not to be able to see that whole picture and for the individual to have to explain again and again their physical health issues, and potentially their comorbid mental health issues, creates a huge challenge for people in getting access to the right help and support in a timely manner.

I would build on that to think about two areas that particularly affect older people: frailty and dementia. In this context, we know that assessment for frailty can make a big difference to ensuring people receive the right kind of help and support. That should be done in primary care, but often, sadly, people with frailty will present in hospital with a range of conditions. Understanding the frailty assessment score and what help and support is needed is key. For people with dementia and their family carers, having access to the right information for the clinician and for the individual concerned can make a huge difference. A disjointed experience just exacerbates what can often be a very challenging time.

--- Later in debate ---

[The Chair]

Thank you all for joining us. Again, I apologise for the disruption.

[Dr Johnson]

Q I should say that I also work as an NHS consultant paediatrician. The single patient record offers a great opportunity for doctors, clinicians and patients to all be much more joined up, but I have a quote from the Secretary of State on Second Reading:

“rather than data being transferred from where it exists at the moment to a new system, it will remain where it is—in GP surgeries, hospitals and so on—but it will be linked up so that one person, including the patient, can see all that data”.—[Official Report, 1 June 2026; Vol. 786, c. 890.]

How easily will that work in practice? In the trust that I work in, we have different systems for blood results, results, tracking patient appointments, maternity and A&E. Is it realistic to expect someone to be able to log on from one part of the country and to understand all the different systems in all the other parts of the country, or do you think that it needs to work in a different way?

Dr Imam: About a month ago, we published some NHS England guidance on best practice for frailty. Included in that are examples of shared care records, where people who are living with frailty who have been assessed by health services can actually view one record. The way those work is to take information from multiple different records and place it into one shared care record, in order for clinicians from various different backgrounds and multidisciplinary teams to work together.

[Dr Johnson]

That would be moving it on to a new system.

Dr Imam: That is in a separate shared care records system.

Dr Byrne: As I understand it, the architecture is not yet decided, so how we solve those technical challenges will be determined by the choice of architecture.

Dr Cocker: Similarly, I believe that the technical solution for how that will be delivered has not been finalised. When we did the maternity-based pilot in the north-west, the wireframe prototype that was developed pulled information from all the separate systems—the maternity system, the hospital central electronic patient record system, the GP system. The pilot was based on pulling it from each individual system into one place where it can be viewed, but that is a future aim. The focus is on phased implementation, so it would not all be immediately available like that, but that is the vision.

[Dr Johnson]

Q Of course, it would need to be viewable across the whole country for people who travel around. What about the security of this data? Lots of people have expressed concerns about the security of the data, both from people who are a bit nosey and who want to have a look, and from people who would wish to do the country harm, hacking large volumes of data. How do we keep it safe?

Dr Cocker: That is a pertinent question. I know that that has been the focus of a lot of concern since the Bill was publicised. I believe that the structure of the SPR would be recognised as a critical national infrastructure-type of project, so it would have access to more resource to protect it. But there will always be inherent risk, when you have something centralised, that it is a single target rather than multiple targets that could be attacked—for example, in a cyber-attack.

Role-based access would be important—for example, having an understanding that the information should be accessed only for the provision of clinical care. How it would be delivered on a technical level would have to be finalised; that was not the type of the prototyping work we did, because it was more about a proof of concept than those more minute technical challenges.

Dr Byrne: I am glad that Dr Cocker took that question first, because he has given you a helpful technical answer. As National Data Guardian, my mission and concern is primarily around public and professional trust. Trust in whether this system can be relied on in terms of people’s confidentiality is something that concerns me very much, as well as people’s trust and confidence in secondary purposes, how the system will be used and what the safeguards around it will be. I would be happy to answer from that perspective when it comes to people’s confidence.

I think you have heard a lot about the potential benefits of this system, but it is important to bear in mind that if people do not trust it, the programme will fail, however great the potential benefits are. As a clinician, I would share the excitement, and I am very supportive of the ambition, but people will not trust it if they perceive the risks to the security of their data and confidentiality to be too great.

With that in mind, I want to draw attention to two things that concern trust. I want to emphasise that trust is not simply important—I know that the word “trust” has come up repeatedly today—but absolutely foundational to the success of this. The question about how demonstrably trustworthy the system is should be the primary foundational question; all other questions, including the technical ones, flow from that one question.

On the confidentiality aspect, I think there is a provision under clause 47 that potentially has very significant unintended consequences. I understand that that is not the intention of the drafting, but I have concerns about it and I have a potential solution to suggest. In clause 47, proposed new section 250E(3) creates the power for the Secretary of State to remove the duty of confidentiality for any processing in the SPR in line with regulations. I need to register my concern about that wholesale lifting of the duty of confidentiality from the entire system.

At a system level, there are two risks. One is to patient and professional confidence in the confidentiality of the data once it is accessed or in a system. Confidentiality is absolutely the cornerstone of all clinician-patient relationships. It means that people are comfortable to share the most sensitive information about themselves and often loved ones—it is not just information about ourselves on our records; it is often also information about our loved ones. If people do not trust that that confidentiality is a constant ethical constraint for anyone accessing the record further on, they may be less able to share information about themselves or their loved ones. Clinicians may also be less likely to document that information if they have ethical concerns about who may access it further on if it is particularly sensitive. That will negatively impact on care and the quality of data for any secondary purposes in future.

The second point I will make about that confidentiality provision is that I understand that the drafting intent is to remove any ambiguity in terms of people’s concerns about duty of confidence when allowing access to their data at an organisational level. However, as currently drafted, the provision could be interpreted to remove the duty of confidentiality for not just direct care but secondary purposes. Secondary purposes in future could be dealt with by regulations. That lack of clarity poses a risk.

The solution I suggest is to redraft that provision, drawing on the precedent already set in the Health and Social Care Act 2012. Section 259 prevents disclosure of data from an organisation from being a breach, so people could allow access at an organisational level with confidence. You have removed that ambiguity, but it does not remove wholesale that duty of confidence—that ethical safeguard for the data in the system itself. I think that that is important for people’s own direct care, and, as I said, it is particularly important if there are any questions around secondary uses in future.

Dr Imam: That was a comprehensive answer; I have nothing to add.

[Dr Johnson]

Q Does it surprise you that the Bill is being brought forward before it has been properly and completely designed? We have tabled some amendments to clause 47; I appreciate that you will not have had a chance to look at those yet, but we would be interested in your thoughts if you could provide them to the Committee afterwards.

We keep hearing that it is difficult for people to have to repeat their story. I understand that stories can be traumatic and repeating them can be unpleasant, particularly if it must be done many times, but is there sometimes a clinical value in asking people to go through their story? If so, what is it?

Dr Imam: My specialty is frailty, which is a medical condition characterised by a loss of independence. Although it is associated with ageing, it is not an inevitable part of ageing. The treatment that I deliver as a clinician is called a comprehensive geriatric assessment. It is evidence-based and we know that it improves patient outcomes and maintains independence. What it describes is a multidisciplinary team approach to a holistic assessment that focuses on what matters most to the patient.

One of the issues that we have right now, however, is that the NHS does not consistently identify people who are living with frailty right across the system from community to hospital. If we are identifying people and diagnosing them with a condition, you would expect treatment options to be offered, yet we do not consistently do that across the country. That is essentially driving ineffective and inefficient care. Sometimes, therefore, when a crisis sets in—we have seen this in other reports around corridor care—that can ensue in older people living with frailty.

In my day job, where I look after people in a busy A&E department, I see people who have may have had a fall or become confused, or where there has been a breakdown in their social situation. My practitioners and I are spending hours trying to piece together information from multiple different sources. Those could be paper-based, digital or telephone—we could be trying to phone people to get up-to-date information. As you can imagine, sometimes they do not pick up the phone, so we are sometimes working from incomplete information and things that are not up to date.

Once we have done that, we try to create a care plan for a patient that allows them to be looked after in the community. However, that care plan may not follow the patient, because everyone uses different electronic patient record systems. Some important partners in that care, like social care or ambulance services, cannot actually see the care plan that I have developed for my patient.

Unfortunately, if a patient with frailty then succumbs to a crisis of some kind, the default setting is, in many cases, to trigger an admission to hospital. If a patient does not need to be in a hospital environment and they are frail, they can end up becoming more frail and weak, and lose their independence. That means that they will need even more social care than would otherwise have been required.

Where the solution comes in is that a nationally rolled-out single patient record system could fundamentally reshape this form of care, because we would be moving it from the fragmented, reactive model that I just described to one that is proactive, co-ordinated and truly centred around a patient. Another thing about frailty is that there are so many different people involved in that person’s care, so we need to try to restore the continuity of care for that type of patient, which has become eroded over time. The SPR addresses that with a single up-to-date view of a patient. It enables earlier risk identification, faster clinical decision making and that whole-system integrated response I have been describing, which is lacking at the moment.

There is often duplication; one of the other issues is that assessing patients in this manner can take a long period of time—up to two and a half hours is often quoted by the British Geriatrics Society. You can imagine that if you had an electronic record that could be auto-populated or could rely on the most recent, up-to-date plan done by someone else, that would avoid reassessment as we would be working from contemporaneous information.

Over time, you can see how, for frailty and many other conditions, that could lead to a more preventive approach that is more community based, that reduces the need for admissions, and that provides a better overall experience for staff and patients. Importantly, there needs to be a shift towards neighbourhood working on frailty, and this allows the multidisciplinary team to work towards one plan. You have also heard today about patient voice and carer voice, and this type of care plan also gives them the opportunity to become partners in looking after themselves.

Dr Cocker: The brief answer to the original question would be that communicating and getting a history from a patient are the cornerstone of the patient-doctor relationship. I do not think that the SPR is ever intended to replace that. Where I see its value within maternity, although I am sure that this is the same across all specialties, is that it would form a reliable means of cross-referencing information and being able to get information that—as we have alluded to previously—is often held on many separate systems. As a clinician, you will often not have the ability or the credentials to access that.

For example, in maternity care at my trust we use a certain piece of software. If you do not work in maternity, although you might be able to get generic access to it, you might not be able to navigate that system. The idea of the SPR is that it would pull out those key bits regarding current concerns about the pregnancy or what follow up has been arranged—all those kinds of things. That would not rely on the ability to use lots of different systems; instead, the information would be available. If there is information that requires cross-referencing or checking, it would also give you the ability to do that rather than replacing the process of taking a history and working out what is wrong with someone.

Dr Byrne: It is a terrific question. Healthcare is a relationship; it is not simply a transaction of facts. At its best, it is a working relationship between a clinician and a patient, but that is also why it is so hard sometimes. Our stories are a combination of two things: the facts and the interpretation of those facts. We heard a moving example earlier of someone saying that they had had five miscarriages and those facts were then not known and how distressing it was that they were not. That is a good example of why getting the facts from conversation to conversation could be really helpful.

Our life story changes over time, however, as does the interpretation that comes up in a conversation. As a doctor in the moment with a patient, I am sometimes as interested in what they are choosing not to tell me at a particular time as what they are choosing to tell me. For all of us, the story changes and is fluid. I think that is a potentially helpful distinction to make.

[Karin Smyth]

Q My questions around the benefits that you might see have been really well answered, so I will not go back to that issue. Dr Cocker and Dr Imam, in your work on maternity and frailty, what early lessons have you picked up on how this might work for you?

Dr Cocker: Having seen the maternity-focused prototype that NHS England developed in the north-west, we learned that it is technically difficult because there are lots of systems. There needs to be a level of interoperability that allows you to pull the data or it is not going to be much use as a reliable system.

The other thing was about trying to ensure that we design those systems for the patients most in need. That might be social or medical need, and there are many different facets to that. That was one of the other challenges. A lot of the focus went into trying to determine a set of theoretical patients who were very high need, and ensuring that you have encompassed all those possible needs, so that if you design the systems for those in most need, they will cater for as many people as possible.

Dr Imam: To expand on Dr Cocker’s point about the identification of problems, people living with frailty often have multiple under-identified issues. In the prototype we have been shown, the SPR has the potential to analyse the wealth of data on a person and summarise it in a manner that makes sense to the clinician logged into the record. It can also piece together a timeline of what has been happening with a person.

As I said earlier, we often follow a manual process to try to understand what has been going on recently for a person. The SPR will not only enable the automation of that process, but give us the ability to know who the key individuals involved in that person’s care are, so when that person is in a crisis or emergency situation, we know exactly who to call and who the last person to touch the patient was.

There are other important functions. It is not only about sharing information across an entire pathway and having the whole-system approach that I described—from community to hospital, and vice versa. Importantly, many people living with frailty require multiple different referrals and the involvement of multiple different people in their care. The SPR will be able to streamline some of those processes and make recommendations for certain referrals that a clinician, who, under an earlier version, would have logged into the record, may not have otherwise thought about, so it may even improve outcomes for patients by providing solutions to improve their care that we would not have come up with otherwise.

--- Later in debate ---

[Peter Prinsley]

Q I would love to amend the figures in my bank account—I would like to be able to go into my Lloyds bank account and add a nought to the end of the balance figure—but I cannot, because the bank controls that. But I am the one who has access to the data.

Dr Byrne: I totally support that ambition. Patients and the public having more agency in their care, strengthening that relationship, and them being able to access their information through the NHS app is a great thing. That is hugely helpful, and there is real potential with the SPR to strengthen that. We have landed on agreement.

[Dr Johnson]

Q Do you have any thoughts on the separation of elements of the record such as safeguarding records and sexual health records? We have heard about carers being able to see parts of the record. Surely there are circumstances where we may want people to see parts of the record but not others, or people may wish to share some parts and not others. Are you aware of any provision being made for that?

Dr Byrne: At the moment, I think it is too early to say. Those are absolutely important questions that will have to be addressed in the design. At the moment, I am not sure how the programme intends to deal with those questions, but clinically, that needs to be thought about. There are complications that need to be thought about very carefully in terms of the record and the access. Sometimes that is clinically complicated, but I am not aware of what the plans are for that.

[Dr Johnson]

Thank you. You are nodding, Dr Cocker.

Dr Cocker: I was just going to say that we did do some exploratory work in relation to safeguarding, because that is quite a key part of safe maternity care, but because of the issues with confidentiality for other involved parties—say, a mother’s partner or someone else in the family—and the risk of that information being pulled through to someone else’s single patient record, it was felt that we could not include any information that contained information about anyone else. That aspect has been considered, but as Dr Byrne said, it would need careful consideration of all those different sources and whether there would be any option to change what feeds in. The only one I am aware of that we have looked at specifically was safeguarding, and it was primarily due to confidentiality issues for other involved parties.

[Dr Johnson]

Q Presumably, the obstetrician may need to be aware of previous pregnancies, but the patient may not want their current partner to know about them.

Dr Cocker: Yes, and those are concerns with the existing systems. There are multiple sources of information we record on a clinician-facing basis that might be deemed sensitive or confidential that are not available from a patient-facing perspective. It might be sexually transmitted infections or previous pregnancy history that a mother does not want someone else to be able to access on the patient-facing aspect of the record. Being able to provide that is very important in realising the end product of the SPR.

[The Chair]

Dr Byrne, Dr Imam and Dr Cocker, thank you very much indeed for your patience and for affording us the benefit of your experience and wisdom. The Committee is most grateful to you.

Examination of Witness

Jon Restell gave evidence.

[The Chair]

We will now hear oral evidence from Managers in Partnership. We have until we have exhausted ourselves—I will say that for the moment—for this session. Would you be kind enough to introduce yourself for the record?

Jon Restell: I am Jon Restell, the chief executive of Managers in Partnership.

[Dr Johnson]

Q Good afternoon, Mr Restell. When the NHS has been reorganised in the past, it has become more centralised or less centralised. Which do you think this Bill does?

Jon Restell: There are lots of different ways to answer that. Obviously, some functions of NHS England moving into the Department, with powers going to the Secretary of State, feels like a centralising measure. I know that the ambition of Government is to give local NHS bodies more freedom and autonomy, but the Bill is very careful and goes into a lot of detail to leave powers with the Secretary of State to intervene in the running of those local bodies. On the whole, it is probably more of a centralising measure.

Another way that some changes outside the Bill process are centralising is through the merger of ICBs and, arguably, quite a lot of providers. Whereas before you might have two or three ICBs covering an area, you now have half the staff covering much bigger geographies. I would argue that that centralises decision making to a higher level than formerly.

[Dr Johnson]

Q What effect is that having on managers and their ability to do the day job and deliver care? Presumably, a lot of time, effort and energy, and perhaps a lot of worry, are going into the process of reorganisation. What effect does that have on the delivery of services and the development of new ones?

Jon Restell: This, for us, is the crux of what is going on. The Bill is the Bill, but there is a finite management resource in the health service. I think that, internationally, it is considered to be quite low. Certainly, Lord Darzi, the Institute for Government and Institute for Fiscal Studies have all pointed to a shortage of management being one of the potential weaknesses of the NHS, so what is going on right now is knocking another big hole in an already limited resource of managers in the health service. That has the potential to create very large workloads for people in the new system, such that, inevitably, certain things will not get done or will not get done well enough. It certainly feels like we have gone into an environment where we are cutting a management cost without thinking about the management capability the health service needs to innovate, deliver reform, and do basic safety and resource management.

[Dr Johnson]

Q That does not sound very good. The Government said that they were going to regulate NHS managers. What impact do you think that would have?

Jon Restell: Our members have been on a bit of a journey on this one. I think that they would broadly support the regulatory proposals that the Government will bring forward after the consultation. I think the real impacts will be very limited, covering a relatively small number of people and being used in very exceptional circumstances, so I do not think that they will transform management culture and deal with the management capability issue we have. They are a very personal form of professional regulation that will have very limited impact.

[Dr Johnson]

Q We have heard a lot today about things not being quite finalised yet; we are not quite sure where the destination is. Is it difficult for managers to be asked to transform from a current service to a new service if there is no well explained vision and understanding of what “new” looks like?

Jon Restell: That is probably driving most of the anxiety and uncertainty that people are experiencing, and it is why, for some members, this is becoming psychologically very difficult. You have a change programme that started in March last year with the announcement by the Prime Minister of the abolition of NHS England and the halving of the staff of NHS England and ICBs. For 18 months, that process has dragged on, with lots of design decisions still to be taken about how the organisation will look, what functions it will have, what will be going to the Department and what might be going elsewhere, and what will potentially go to trusts from ICBs and from ICBs to regions. Despite all that uncertainty, people are being told to make decisions about voluntary redundancy and the future where they do not understand where that future potentially sits for them. That is undoubtedly driving a lot of people to feel psychologically unwell and distressed, and they are leaving. People are beginning to leave, because they need to protect themselves.

There is another part to this. Obviously, that is a very personal issue for our members, but the other thing is that they are really worried about the service to the public, the safety of the changes and what will happen to various functions that they are responsible for, if teams get halved and responsibilities are taken to a higher level in that more centralised model.

For example, we have a lot of members working in ICBs who have really hands-on roles in the care of individual children, particularly where providers fail. Those kinds of concern are not being properly addressed in terms of risk and continuity of service to those people. We are going to survey our members—we will share the results with the Committee—in the next week or so about what specifically is worrying them about the way that change is being managed. With due respect to the Minister, this was all announced without a plan, and we are now waiting for a plan to emerge, 18 months into the process.

[Dr Johnson]

Q We do not have a plan of where we are going, but you have been asked to go somewhere.

Jon Restell: Obviously, we have the 10-year health plan, which most people broadly see as a good vision for the service, but there are too many key design questions around the new department, the role of the department’s regions, what ICBs will be doing and what trusts will take on as part of this reorganisation. Behind it, there is a lot of capacity and resource organisational memory being taken out of the system.

We do not talk nearly enough about the work of the commissioning support units staff, who are providing internal consultancy and a huge range of business services to the health service, including overseeing child immunisation programmes in some cases. It is really unclear what the future of those functions is. We are taking out a lot of staff who have skills, expertise, organisational memory and commitment, but we do not quite know yet what the precise form of those organisations will be. It is a very difficult change to manage.

[Karin Smyth]

Q It is always good to have a doctor from the NHS supporting managers in the NHS, having been one. I declared my interest earlier that I am a member of Managers in Partnership.

We had a lot of change with the Health and Social Care Act 2012, and the Bill seeks to reverse that in terms of the architecture of the NHS. We absolutely appreciate as a Government that that is very difficult for staff working in it. I appreciate that the operating model and so on is coming forward, but could you say a bit about people’s feelings about the Bill? There will be more clarity to the centre and the role of providers is not changing, while the real change is around commissioning functions and, as you said, commissioning support organisations. We heard earlier that everything is being reorganised. That is not true, but there is a big change in the geography and the functions of ICBs and commissioners, and the Secretary of State’s role will clearly be different. What might people’s approach to that be?

Jon Restell: Clarity, definitely. No one wants to start with the system that came in in 2011 and 2012. Successive Governments started to correct it almost as soon as it was put in place. I think most people would welcome sorting out the clarity around commissioning there, but I do not think that is the same thing as cutting 50% of those organisations’ staff and running costs. You are clarifying the relationship between the centre and ICBs, commissioning and providers. You still need enough managers with enough skills working in the right system to deliver. That is the nub of what we are doing.

For us it is not really about how the Bill will eventually pan out; it is about the cut and how that is being administered by NHS England, the Department and ICBs. The whole system of management is under strain across the health service. You say that providers are not changing but they are also being asked to take out quite significant amounts of management resource. They are merging to form bigger, potentially more centralised units that may be less responsive and less innovative. I think that organisational form is really important, even if the headline of the Bill might tidy up and clarify those relationships, which would be welcome.

A point made by a lot of members, particularly those in ICBs, is that they do not think that the model design—where we started with ICBs, then went to regions and we are eventually going to get to the target operating model for the Department—is being done at a time where you can see the proper connections that need to be made between those organisations. When the system is up and running, how well will it work together to share information, share risk and so on? It feels like the Bill is very high level and the detailed design of the organisations is being undertaken in a completely fragmented way. People see that as potentially requiring the next round of reorganisation. You are a former NHS manager, Minister; you know how often reorganisation is reached for as the solution. I genuinely feel that people have got to the point where enough is enough. That kind of continual change will create more and more problems for doing the things that the public actually want to see: innovation, improvement in the quality of service and happier staff—all the things that managers should be focused on, not the merry-go-round of organisational change.

--- Later in debate ---

[The Chair]

We shall now hear oral evidence from Sir Andrew Dilnot. Sir Andrew, for the benefit of the record, could you identify yourself, please?

Sir Andrew Dilnot: I am Andrew Dilnot; it is great to be here.

[Dr Johnson]

Q Good afternoon. Social care is one area that is absent from this Bill. To what extent is it possible to make the health service more efficient without tackling problems in adult social care?

Sir Andrew Dilnot: It is largely absent from the Bill—indeed, when I was asked to come and give evidence to this Committee, I was initially somewhat puzzled, since it is so largely absent. The question you ask is absolutely to the point: certainly, we can improve the efficiency of the NHS without doing anything about social care, but we cannot really address many of the fundamental problems facing the NHS if we do not sort out social care.

That is partly because not having a good social care system means that we are not achieving the levels of human flourishing that are the objective of the health service and the social care system. It is also the case that the social care system is now under such pressure that it is leading to direct challenges for the NHS. We hear a lot about delayed transfers of care, which are an important part of this, but it is not just those; it is people who end up needing healthcare because they have not had appropriate social care support.

The short answer to your question is that we can make the NHS a bit more efficient without reforming the social care system; but until we address social care we have at least two hands, and probably one foot, tied behind our back. It seems pretty astonishing to me that we have a 10-year NHS plan but no real plan for social care.

[Dr Johnson]

Q We have heard evidence today that the Bill weakens links between local authority working and the ICB. Does that help social care, or could that actually make it worse?

Sir Andrew Dilnot: I would not claim to be expert here, but I have read the Bill and the briefings. The role of local authorities in social care is a very interesting one. If we were to stand way back and honestly answer the question, “Why is social care managed by local authorities at the moment?”, we would say, “Because it was forgotten in 1948, when the rest of the modern welfare state was created.” At that stage, social care was a pretty small activity, and it was just left with local authorities. What has happened since then is that it has grown and grown, and it is now putting enormous strain on at least many local authorities.

I think we should draw a clear distinction in something that is definitely appropriate—that is, care being provided within a local context. The kind of care that is appropriate in Camden will be different to the type of care that is appropriate in the highlands of Scotland. Local delivery seems relevant, but whether local financing makes sense in 2026 is a very big question. That is the context.

On its own, it is hard to see the potential reduction in the role of local authorities in ICBs making things better. It will not necessarily make things significantly worse, but I do not think it will help local authorities and the NHS in trying to integrate these two essentially non-integrated functions.

[Karin Smyth]

Q As you say, the Bill does not deal with social care, but it is great to have your expertise here. Do you think the Bill should or could have included social care at this stage?

Sir Andrew Dilnot: The question of the fine details of how legislation should be passed is certainly outside my skillset, so I have to be agnostic about whether the Bill should have addressed the wider questions of social care. On the question of whether we could address social care or not, the answer is definitely yes. After all, several Governments over the last few years have promised to do so. The former Secretary of State for Health and Social Care, when he was the shadow Secretary of State during the election two years ago, promised that he would do it. Such measures have received Royal Assent twice, but they have still not taken place, even though they were promised by the then shadow Secretary of State for Health and Social Care, before he became the Secretary of State.

Yes, we definitely could do it. The amounts of money involved, while of course significant, are small relative to the aggregate costs of the NHS or the uplift in spending on the NHS that, with my full support, we have seen in the last couple of years. I think it is a genuine puzzle and a black mark for all of us, including me, that all these years have gone by and we have done nothing. We have a social care system that is supported by millions of wonderful informal carers and about 1.5 million formal carers, benefiting hundreds of thousands of people, but it is creaking under intolerable strain. It really makes no sense to me, and I really do not know why or how we have managed to go for so long without addressing it. We should do so, not only because it is the right thing to do, but because it is now so bad that it is doing direct, instrumental damage to the NHS.

--- Later in debate ---

[Joe Robertson]

Q Hospital pressures on the Isle of Wight are particularly severe, and part of the way of dealing with so-called corridor care is for the hospital and local authority to look at discharging some frail patients to the mainland, including those living with dementia, which is plainly not a solution by anyone’s normal interpretation. Is there anything in this Bill, notwithstanding that it does not deal with the fundamental problems of social care, not only that can help to resolve those sorts of situations, but that could help to resolve them if it went a little further? I am looking for opportunities to use the Bill to try to do a little more in and around discharge and social care.

Sir Andrew Dilnot: That is a very good question, to which I do not have a very immediate answer. Well, I do have an immediate answer, which is that, as far as I can see, it is nothing very substantial.

The single patient record offers some prospects here, and it is terribly important for people receiving social care, which again reflects how much longer we are living. There is much more multiple morbidity now. Many of the people who can and are benefiting from social care will have quite complicated medical experiences and histories. That is the kind of group that could particularly benefit from a single patient record, so that we are not having inappropriate prescription and so on. That is going to help, but it will be a second-order issue.

Let me be very blunt. There are two fundamental challenges facing the social care system. The first is that the means-tested bit of it, where we say, “If you don’t have any resources of your own, the state will look after you,” must be a minimum for any humane society. Essentially every year for at least the last decade, the Treasury has announced emergency funding for that in year. That money then does not get spent well. Honestly, if you are announcing an emergency package every year for 10 years, it is not an emergency package. You should wake up, pay attention, have a mature response and fund that system properly. That is the minimum.

The second is that the only big risk we all face that is not pooled is social care. Our risk of healthcare is pooled by the state, our risk of having a car accident or our house burning down is pooled by private insurance. This is the one risk that is not pooled, and the reason is that the state does not, and the private sector cannot. The reason the private sector cannot is that it is too far ahead for a private insurance market to deal with it, so only the state can pool the risk. If there is any area where the case for social insurance is absolutely clear, it is social care; the case is even more powerful in social care than it is in health.

At the moment we have a situation where often people will feel that the best thing that can happen to them, if they think they might have a social care need, is that they die before too long. It is a bit like standing in the middle of the road with a lorry driving towards you and hoping that the best thing that might happen is that you die before it hits you. That is not a good way to be running any kind of society or country. Those challenges—the lack of adequate funding of the means-tested system and the lack of any risk pooling for the population as a whole—lead directly to the kind of experience that you are describing in the Isle of Wight, where there is simply excess demand and so we are trying to ship people across to the mainland. It is a reflection of the fundamental challenges that we have ignored for 35 years.

[Dr Johnson]

Q You have talked a lot about adult social care in terms of the very elderly and frail and people with dementia, but it also affects younger people. For example, Swallow Lodge, which is a facility for working-age adults in my constituency, is under threat of closure. I and others have made the arguments about how it is a lifeline that allows the families to have a break and the individuals using the service to flourish and enjoy life, but there is an economic argument too. How well do you think that is understood? Closing such a place could lead to higher costs for the NHS in mental health or physical health support, further social care admissions and the like.

Sir Andrew Dilnot: You are absolutely right to emphasise the importance of non-elderly adult social care, which is roughly half of all of the expenditure and growing. One reason that we see particular pressures in the elderly care sphere is that the less-elderly need has grown very dramatically, again because of the scope for increased human flourishing.

On the whole, as far as I can see, there is very little understanding of the integrated nature of these costs between social care and the NHS, so I think there is very little thinking in budgetary terms about the consequences of the squeeze on social care leading to increased expenditure and needs elsewhere in the NHS. That is not easy to resolve. Moving to a system that properly integrates those trade-offs will be difficult, and it requires a different sort of funding regime, but while we do not, those costs exist. My sense is that they are second order at the national level, but where they are certainly not second order is for the individuals concerned and their families, for whom this kind of thing is an eruption of anxiety and grief, in the context that families are already under pressures that most of us would find hard to imagine.

[The Chair]

Thank you very much indeed, Sir Andrew, for affording us the benefit of your considerable knowledge in this area, and thank you again for your patience. We are most grateful to you.

Sir Andrew Dilnot: Thank you. I am delighted that you are thinking about social care in the context of this Bill.

Examination of Witness

Karin Smyth gave evidence.

[The Chair]

Minister, for the sake of the record, would you identify yourself, please?

Karin Smyth: I am Karin Smyth, the Minister of State at the Department of Health and Social Care.

[Dr Johnson]

Q Minister, you have previously said:

“The reorganisation of health services always distracts from people’s jobs, destroys morale and wastes money”.—[Official Report, 22 September 2020; Vol. 680, c. 809.]

In response to a written question this week, though, which asked what assessment you have made of the disruption of development of new services caused by the abolition of NHS England, you said:

“The abolition of NHS England is causing no disruption to the development of new services.”

I wonder which of those statements you agree with the most and whether you want to change your mind in the light of any of the evidence you have heard today.

Karin Smyth: I do not know exactly what year you are quoting from, but I am happy to take that full on. Of course, change, reorganisations and changes in legislation have consequences at different times depending on what they are. That will determine changes to some services at local level.

I think that quote probably relates to the 2012 changes, which, as I have often said, brought me into Parliament. The entire infrastructure of the health service was destroyed and changed in order to bring forward that legislation. I can never find anybody—I think I have heard Lord Lansley say this—who thinks that was a good thing. I am very happy to say that part of the rationale was the fact that, despite lots of warnings about the damage to that infrastructure, that lesson was not learned. We will not go through the history of the passage of that Act. It even had to be paused mid-way through to enact other ways of making things work.

I am sure that you will come back in your second question to decisions about some of the provisions in this Bill. It is true, and a matter of record, that as an incoming Government we did not intend to abolish NHS England as an organisation; in our determination to change the outcomes of the health service, that decision was made some eight months into our being in government. Today, we have not heard a single person suggest that that decision is wrong. Dr Johnson is from the Opposition. The Bill was not opposed in principle on Second Reading. There is overwhelming consensus on the major provision in the Bill—the abolition of NHS England—and on the single patient record.

I am mindful, on a personal level, of the consequences for individual people’s jobs and of trying to get that right. I accept much of the criticism from Mr Restell about how it would be better to do it much more quickly, and about making sure that it is done in a different way, but the consequences of abolishing NHS England are some of the things that we are seeing.

[Dr Johnson]

Q May I press you on the answer to my first question before I move on to the next? In the light of what you have heard today, do you want to correct your statement this week, in response to a written question, that the abolition of NHS England is “causing no disruption”—yes or no?

Karin Smyth: In terms of service delivery—I think the written question was about delivering services— I stand by that.

[Dr Johnson]

Q My next question is about the vision. My right hon. Friend the Member for Melton and Syston spoke earlier about his reforms of the past, and there was a coherent vision to those, but today we have heard that there is not really a plan. On the single patient record and other aspects of the Bill, lots of decisions have yet to be made. You are asking people to move from here to there without specifying where “there” is. Is this ready? Are you trying to get to a landing place that you understand as a coherent vision, or are you just trying to unpick things that somebody did before and that you did not like?

Karin Smyth: Do you mean the future state of ICBs?

[Dr Johnson]

No, I mean the system as a whole. My right hon. Friend the Member for Melton and Syston spoke earlier about how ICBs were designed to link in with upper-tier local authorities, and he gave a reason why. Under these reforms, Lincolnshire ICB, which was part of a mayoral authority, will now link in with Derbyshire and with Nottinghamshire, which are part of another mayoral authority but not a complete mayoral authority. You have things jumbled up. I wonder whether that is because, rather than having a vision, you have started to unpick somebody else’s work because you did not like it. Likewise, with the single patient record, we have heard that lots of necessary decisions were not made before the Bill was introduced, so people are being asked to deliver things that have not been properly considered. Is that fair?

Karin Smyth: I think they are two separate things. On the provision made in the Bill, abolishing NHS England brings with it a lot of technical detail to ensure that the legal responsibilities and duties are placed, rightly, on the Secretary of State and into ICBs. It clarifies the landscape on very technical matters such as licences and foundation trusts, and there is a large chunk of detail on the consequences of abolishing NHS England.

Alongside that, there is a move to give ICBs a larger footprint, in parallel with the Government’s agenda on devolution. I accept that that is a lot of change in all our constituencies and for all our areas. We are making sure that we make the most of mayoral authorities to allow mayors to be on ICBs, as they are largely determiners of a lot of economic development, transport and indeed the wider determinants of health. We are still going through some of that change; you will recently have been written to for your views on it as local Members of Parliament, along with local government. We need to make sure that that is embedded as quickly as possible so that we can stabilise that side of the system.

On the single patient record, the Bill will provide enabling powers to bring it forward in regulations. There will be further detailed consultation both with clinicians and with patients and the public, as we have heard, because building trust is critical. That will come next, which is usual in parliamentary terms: as legislators we understand that primary legislation makes provision and secondary legislation sets out regulation. I thought Dr Byrne was very helpful earlier on the point about bringing public trust with us and explaining the two stages of bringing this forward.

[Dr Johnson]

Q We have heard a lot about independence: the independence of HSSIB, its ability to independently investigate and independently recommend, and Healthwatch’s ability to independently describe patient voice without interference from those whose homework it is marking. Do you have any reflections on the Bill and what it contains in the light of what you have heard?

Karin Smyth: There is a fundamental philosophical, and perhaps political, difference in the approach that this Government are taking compared with what has gone before, in terms of the notion of responsibility and accountability for both commissioning and delivering services, and the position of independence. We talked earlier today about perception and reality.

The system has not worked. To my earlier question— I think I said this on Second Reading—we have had what is called an independent voice in some of these bodies for over 50 years, and we have had numerous recommendations. I disagree with Jeremy Hunt on this. Under his stewardship of the new NHS England, we had a plethora of recommendations and new organisations, and layer upon layer of bureaucracy, totally remote from any kind of democratic accountability or oversight. That is not working, and I do not think that anybody is really defending that.

It is the job of the NHS—both providers and commissioners—to include patient voice and patient experience in their work. I think Ciarán Devane from the NHS Alliance said that getting boards right, in terms of their managerial, clinical and patient experience work, is their responsibility. Outsourcing lots of that work to other bodies has not worked, and I think it is outsourcing that responsibility. We have to make boards work at a local level; they have to step up to the plate, and I think they want to. They are certainly equipped to be able to do that—not taking into account that people will need some skilling in some of these areas. There is a debate to be had about independent organisations, and I think we will have a good debate on it in Committee.

As a final comment before you come back, this is a bit of a bugbear of mine, and perhaps as I am speaking on behalf of the Department I should not say it, but I will: none of my constituents are hard to reach—not a single one of them. We know exactly where they are; we largely know what is wrong with them; we largely know what their health outcomes are going to be; we know their ethnicity, demographics and so on. What are hard to reach are the remote organisations that have not served them well, and that is what we are determined to put right. Putting that right in this Bill is the start of doing that.

[Dr Johnson]

Q The question was really about trust, and how people can be trusting of figures. For example, with Healthwatch, if you internalise patient experience into an organisation, do people then trust you when you say that it has got better? They will have only their own experience and the experience of their own family to work on; that will be the lens through which they look at things. We know that the waiting list numbers have come down, and there is not widespread trust in those numbers, for all sorts of reasons. If the numbers for patient experience are governed by the Department of Health, or the ICBs themselves marking their own homework, will the public trust them? Whether they should trust them is one question, but will they trust them?

Karin Smyth: I will come back to the waiting lists, but you are absolutely right about trust. In saying that I expect this to be the board’s job, I think it is its job to get this right, and we need to support it to do that. We heard a bit from Penny Dash about the national quality board and the patient experience directorate inside the Department of Health and Social Care reporting directly to the chief executive and the permanent secretary. That has to be part of the wider architecture, which is of course outside the Bill, so we need to be able to tell that story to the wider public.

We know from all the recommendations, reviews and the support that we give as Members of Parliament to our constituents that trust is really important. Getting that right and bringing people on that journey with us will be really important. Independence helps with that, and that it is why it is good to debate it as we consider the Bill—it is good to be able to air some of it—but I think people accept that things are not working and have not been working.

I think your question about waiting lists is about the data and the information that says where we are at. It is really complex. To follow NHS England’s data, of which there is a lot—I commend the amount of data that is available—you need to be quite clever at spreadsheets, and at finding and articulating data, in order to bring it back to your own constituency and local place. These things are complex. It is complex to record, track and recognise how people move through a waiting list, for example.

It is good that we are transparent about that. One thing that I am keen to push out is data on performance in trusts. Making so-called league tables is controversial, but the more information that we have out there, and the more we have honest debates about how complex and difficult it is—I am happy to take your questions around how that moves in order to for us to explain that—the more that helps to build trust.

[Liz Twist]

Q Minister, we have talked a lot today about ICBs, the local government Healthwatch and the single patient record, and we have heard some interesting comments. Can you summarise why you believe it is important that we look at this legislation now?

Karin Smyth: I will come to the single patient record because I think it is a gamechanger. We have heard today from some fantastic experts about the work they are doing to identify how it might work and how we might bring patients and the public with us. Again— I do not think we should just bank this—we have not heard anybody object to it.

We did have some evidence highlighting how things have gone wrong in the past. I worked at a primary care trust and clinical commissioning group at the time when care.data was brought forward. We can all point to where it has gone wrong, but nobody has said that this is not the right thing to do. That is good, but there is still a lot of detail to go through.

We need to keep highlighting the benefits. We heard from Peter Prinsley about whether patients have more control—we do think this is about empowering patients. That was what we said in the 10-year plan. The 10-year plan is about empowering patients in this very large system, for which they are now paying £200 billion of their taxes.

We heard from the excellent clinical panel. I defer to clinicians about what they need, both if they are dealing with chronic long-term conditions—we heard that it can sometimes take two and a half hours for an assessment—or if they are working in a busy emergency department. The fact that this is needed will be controversial. There will be a lot of questions about it and a lot of concern about privacy, data, cyber and so on. We need to hold on to those benefits, which are huge in clinical terms and for patients.

Another point we heard, which is also true, is that people think this already happens. People do not understand why, when they turn up at an A&E in Whitby, as we heard, or somewhere else, and then go back to central London, the systems cannot talk to each other. For me, that is about people’s trust and belief in what is a public service. It is a really important part of that.

On abolishing NHS England, I do not think anyone has come to one of my constituency surgeries and said, “Please do this,” or talked about it in great detail, but people do understand. My experience in opposition and so far in government is that MPs are perplexed when they try to intervene on behalf of patients, or to get an answer locally as to why on earth chief executives of ICBs or trusts sometimes do not respond even to a Member of Parliament’s requests for meetings. I find that shocking, but it does happen. How on earth is a patient or somebody struggling through the system expected to get a response? Getting it right is not black and white, and it is not easy to get the balance right between the Secretary of State’s democratic oversight and autonomy at a local level, but the Bill starts the process of doing that, and it is fundamentally important.

Regarding the other provisions, I accept that great work has been done by many people in Healthwatch and its predecessor organisations, and by people working in the patient safety landscape, but again it is not working. I think that those bodies have been allowed to abdicate responsibility for the core role of patient experience and patient voice. That is not their homework; it is their actual job. It is not something that should be outside, and that is why I think this Bill is really important.

Secondary Breast Cancer

Caroline Johnson Excerpts

Thursday 11th June 2026 Westminster Hall

[Dr Caroline Johnson (Sleaford and North Hykeham) (Con)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Betts.

I congratulate the hon. Members for Wokingham (Clive Jones) and for City of Durham (Mary Kelly Foy) on securing this debate, which I know is extremely personal to both of them. I also congratulate the hon. Member for West Lancashire (Ashley Dalton) on her speech. It is quite common in this place for people to say that an hon. Lady or hon. Gentleman has given an extremely powerful speech, but that was an extremely powerful speech. I was moved by it, and I am in great admiration of her courage and the frankness with which she speaks in this House about her illness. I was fortunate enough to be at a roundtable earlier in the week with the New Statesman about the cancer plan, with the hon. Member for Wokingham and others. I found it very insightful and thought-provoking, like the contributions we have heard in the Chamber today.

As has been said, for many people, primary breast cancer never comes back after treatment, and treatment for primary breast cancer has significantly improved. But sometimes the cancer cells spread to other parts of the body—commonly the bones, lungs, liver, brain or skin—which is called secondary or metastatic breast cancer. As we have heard, the best estimate we have is that there are around 61,000 people living with secondary breast cancer in the United Kingdom, but that statistic is uncertain and the data is unclear. One point in the cancer plan was that the Government would collect the data on secondary breast cancer from 2026. We are almost halfway through 2026, so I would be grateful if the Minister could provide an update on how that is going and when we will see that data. Also, how frequently does she expect it to be published—will it be published monthly, quarterly, every half year or every year? What are her plans for that? There needs to be definition in order to do that, so I wonder if she has settled on that too.

Another point in the cancer plan is the desire to improve screening. Again, I commend the hon. Member for West Lancashire on her work on the cancer plan, but there are women in Lincolnshire waiting five weeks and more for referral to their appointment when they discover a breast lump, and we know that the longer it takes for diagnosis, the more likely metastasis is to occur. Could the Minister give more detail on the promise to expand screening? What does it look like? What workforce will be necessary and when will that be in place? What mammography machines or ultrasound machines might be needed? Are they to be bought and installed, and how quickly does she expect that to happen? For those who need genetic testing, what plans does she have to expand the availability of genetic testing, and what will the timescale be?

The cancer plan, which I am glad is very ambitious—it should be—will work only if it is delivered. It was published just over four months ago, but it is not clear what progress is being made or that the work is continuing at the necessary pace to deliver the ambitions we all want to see achieved. One thing slowing progress is the reorganisation of integrated care boards in response to the cutting of their budgets by 50%, and the Health Bill’s abolition of NHS England. The people who would be organising and planning are organising and planning something else. Some of them are leaving, so we are losing expertise, while others are being made redundant—or leaving before they are made redundant. That is disrupting the planning of our health services. Will the Minister comment on that?

As has been said, there has not been the same progress for treatment of lobular breast cancer as for other forms of breast cancer. The previous Conservative Government committed £20 million to the Moon Shot project, to research ways of advancing treatment of that particular form of cancer, which needs more attention than it has had of late. Will the Minister tell us whether this Government are committed to providing that money for that research?

Hospices provide amazing services for people towards the end of their lives, but, as we have heard in other debates in this Chamber, they are struggling. They have a lot of staff because theirs is a very person-delivered service, and they accrue extra national insurance costs from employing all those members of staff. I appreciate that the Government have put a lot of money into hospices, but that is capital money to enable them to redecorate, build extra bits, provide extra equipment. That is lovely, but it does not help if there are no staff to run the service and provide the care that the patients so desperately need. What discussions has the Minister had about the effects of national insurance contributions on hospices? Has she considered an exemption? What are her plans to help to support the hospice movement?

The hon. Member for West Lancashire referred to what happens when a patient has run out of options. As a doctor, I am always told that a doctor never runs out of treatments. Palliative treatment is treatment, so even when they run out of treatments, they are still providing a treatment. However, what happens when we run out of treatment that is active or likely to be successful in prolonging life or curing disease? It is important that research is supported and able to continue. I look forward to the Minister’s words on what the Government are doing to support research so that new drugs can come online. During the pandemic, we saw how quickly vaccines were brought through the pathway. What is gumming things up now? How do we speed it up so that people can get the necessary drugs more quickly?

What happens in the grey zone, when a drug is going into trial and is sort of but not quite available yet? We have compassionate use schemes, about which I asked an urgent question in the main Chamber this morning. Such schemes are used when individuals have reached the end of the treatment options and perhaps do not qualify for any of the trials that are currently available—in paediatrics, that could mean that they are a few days out of the age bracket—or perhaps the trials are full. Those schemes are also used when a patient received the drug in a trial, but the trial is finished and negotiations about the drug are ongoing. In some cases, the drug companies will provide those drugs to patients for free to help them.

Unfortunately, towards the end of last year, the Government decided to charge VAT on the deemed value of such drugs. That means the companies have to pay sometimes quite significant charges to give those drugs to patients. One large pharmaceutical company has pulled out of the compassionate use scheme, which means that its drugs are not available for the people who need them—that issue was raised by my hon. Friend Member for Hornchurch and Upminster (Julia Lopez). The enforcement of that tax by His Majesty’s Revenue and Customs has been paused for review, but the liabilities remain.

We therefore have a situation in which some drug companies are pulling out and others are considering their position. People with secondary breast cancer, and those with other cancers and serious illnesses, cannot wait for the autumn Budget. They need the Government to make a decision to sort this problem out now. Only last month, the Government decided that they would take VAT off rides at Alton Towers. That is great, but if they can do that, they can sort this issue out as well, and they need to get on with it. Will the Minister raise the matter with her colleagues in the Department of Health and Social Care and in the Treasury to see what she can do to help people who have no option other than these new and special drugs to keep their hope alive?

In summary, the cancer plan is ambitious, which is great—it has some great targets that I hope can be achieved—but we need to see delivery. I am looking to the Minister for the detail on how the plan will be delivered.

Compassionate Use Medicine Schemes: VAT

Caroline Johnson Excerpts

Thursday 11th June 2026 Commons Chamber

[Dr Caroline Johnson (Sleaford and North Hykeham) (Con)]

(Urgent Question): To ask the Secretary of State for Health and Social Care if he will make a statement on the effect of VAT on the availability of medicines through compassionate use schemes.

[The Minister for Secondary Care (Karin Smyth)]

It is very important for patients to have access to innovative medicines as quickly as possible, especially where there is unmet clinical need or no alternative treatment. We are working to streamline the decisions of the National Institute for Health and Care Excellence and the Medicines and Healthcare products Regulatory Agency so that NHS patients benefit from the latest medicines as soon as they are proven to be safe and effective.

Early access and compassionate use programmes can play an important role in enabling patient access to medicines ahead of routine commissioning decisions. However, we should be clear that these programmes are commercial decisions taken by pharmaceutical companies: companies choose whether and how to provide medicines free of charge to patients and the NHS before the medicines go through licensing, post-trial access or a funding decision.

The tax system is, as Members know, a matter for the Chancellor, so I will not get into details about that at the Dispatch Box, but under long-standing VAT rules, supplies of goods free of charge can still be treated as taxable “deemed supplies” where input tax has been recovered. That means that VAT can apply even where no payment is made, reflecting established principles of the tax system. We recognise the concerns raised by industry and others about the potential impact of this treatment on the provision of free-of-charge medicines. We are working closely with the Treasury and His Majesty’s Revenue and Customs to explore options to address these issues, as witnessed by my hon. Friend the Exchequer Secretary to the Treasury, who is here with me on the Front Bench. We will carefully consider the legal, fiscal and operational implications of any potential changes. Until then, we will continue to engage constructively with industry, the NHS and all our partners to make sure that British patients, who we have in our thoughts at all times, have access to innovative medicines.

[Dr Johnson]

I declare an interest as a consultant paediatrician. One of the worst moments as a paediatrician is when all treatments have failed and there is no suitable clinical trial. At that point, in those dark moments, compassionate use schemes can be a glimmer of hope, and new unlicensed medicines with clinical potential have been provided free to the patient, and free to the NHS. Last year, however, the Government started charging VAT on the deemed value of those drugs, meaning that companies had to pay tax to give the drugs away. When hearing that “every meeting” with Labour MPs was about

“who can we tax in order to pay benefits to others?”

few would have imagined that that would include potentially lifesaving, charitably given drugs for sick adults and dying children.

Following lobbying by my hon. Friend the Member for Hornchurch and Upminster (Julia Lopez), the Government have paused enforcement while they review the situation, but they have said that liabilities remain, and they are taking too long. Bayer has now withdrawn from the scheme, and others could follow. Patients are at risk. Does the Minister recognise that that makes trials in the UK less attractive, and that HMRC’s pause is not enough? How much money do the Government expect to raise with this VAT? How did the Government find time to reduce VAT on fairground rides at Alton Towers, but not to sort out this problem? How many patients have missed out so far? Does the Minister recognise that this delay could cost lives, and who was the Minister who signed this off? Was it the Health Secretary when he was a Minister in the Treasury?

I understand that the Government say this situation is not new, and that it may apply to a law dating back over 30 years. I gently point out, however, that the application is new, and that the levers to change it—and change it quickly—lie in this Government’s hands. Patients need them to act swiftly.

[Karin Smyth]

I pay tribute to the hon. Lady’s service as a clinician, and she is right to say that, at times, for patients facing such situations, compassionate use schemes are a glimmer of hope, but I think the rest of her comments were ill deserved. I understand the desire of the Opposition to attack a new Secretary of State because he was in the Treasury, but I will move on to the actual issues, because patients care about this. The rules had been in place for a long time when this Government took office, and we have not changed them. We have inherited this system, and we are looking at how we can improve it.

The previous Government could have abolished VAT on such medicines, but they chose not to do so. What is more, since we have been in office, we have struck a deal with the USA that not only guarantees 0% on pharmaceutical tariffs, but changes the old formula that we use for medicines. For the first time in 20 years, the Government are spending more to ensure that our patients are first in the queue for innovative medicines. The previous Government could also have raised the threshold, but they chose not to do so. Now, for example, patients facing Duchenne muscular dystrophy, children as young as 12 who need a brain cancer drug, or those who have a type of rare and aggressive stomach cancer, are being treated.

We recognise the importance of the UK remaining a leading location for life sciences, investment and innovation. That is precisely why we are engaging with industry and partners across the Government to understand and address concerns, including the issue of VAT payable on donated medicines. In considering a way forward, it is important to safeguard the robust and fair system by which routine access to medicines commissioned by the NHS is determined. A range of options are being considered. No decisions have been made at this stage, and I will not pre-empt any.

Draft Food Supplements Purity Criteria (Magnesium L-threonate monohydrate) (England) Regulations 2026

Caroline Johnson Excerpts

Wednesday 10th June 2026 General Committees

[Dr Caroline Johnson (Sleaford and North Hykeham) (Con)]

I just have a couple of questions. I have read about magnesium L-threonate: it is supposed to promote relaxation, unlock true cognitive potential, improve sleep, mood and overall wellbeing, and enhance mental clarity, memory and focus, so I was thinking I might get some of that. However, if I were to recommend it as a supplement, there are a couple of things I would need to know. What would the dosing be? Can the Minister confirm whether the plan is to set the dosing of magnesium in line with other types of magnesium supplements and in line with the EU, or has that not been decided? Will that be decided on a different day?

My other question is how, when we look at supplements, we can be sure they contain what it says on the tin. The Food Standards Agency regulates that, but how many reports has it had of concerns about the content of supplements, and how many products does it test? I looked at its retail survey for 2025, which found that 83% of caffeine supplements failed because they had the wrong amount of caffeine, there were allergens not described on the labels, or they contained substances that should not have been there. How often should we expect the supplements to be tested? What sort of programmes are in place to ensure that the huge variety of supplements that people can choose from in shops these days are safe and that they contain what they say they do? Other than that, I am happy with the regulations.