Durban Climate Change Conference

Debate between Chris Huhne and Caroline Lucas

Monday 12th December 2011 Commons Chamber

[Chris Huhne]

I pay tribute to my hon. Friend for his interest in that area and the work he has done. The Congo basin initiative is absolutely crucial. We aim to work with some interesting projects through bilateral support from the UK Government for some key forest nations, which will be in the Amazon, the Congo basin and Indonesia. Further progress was made through the technical achievements in the working groups, which he will find set out in the full agreement.

[Caroline Lucas (Brighton, Pavilion) (Green)]

The Secretary of State talked about the importance of monitoring. Monitoring is important, but so is action. I am deeply worried that, unless we see much faster action, we risk going down in history as the species that spent all its time monitoring it own extinction, rather than taking active steps to avoid it. The Durban agreement will not limit global warming to 2°, as he acknowledged, which means that we are on course for exceedingly dangerous climate change, so what will he do to ensure that the EU moves as fast as possible, unilaterally if necessary, to a 30% reduction target by 2020?

[Chris Huhne]

I am grateful to the hon. Lady for her question. Action is the most important ultimate benchmark of what we do, but I urge her not to underestimate the importance of knowledge in informing action. One of the key gaps that we need to fill in this area is regular reporting and attention on the gap between what we are doing and what we need to do to hold the global temperature rise to within 2°, beneath the level that would create dangerous climate change. I have had discussions not only with Marcin Korolec, the Environment Minister of Poland, which currently holds the presidency of the Council of the European Union, but with Martin Lidegaard, the Energy and Climate Change Minister of Denmark, which will hold the presidency for the first half of next year. I had good conversations with him in Durban and am confident that the Danes will bring forward some clear time within the Council to ensure that we make real progress towards some of the key staging posts in reaching 30%. Perhaps most progress will be made on the energy efficiency directive, because it should be relatively easy to agree and we know that energy efficiency measures tend to have benefits outright. We are thinking about how to do that and I hope that the European Union will be able to move forward on domestic action in the first six months of next year.

Solar Power (Feed-in Tariff)

Debate between Chris Huhne and Caroline Lucas

Wednesday 23rd November 2011 Commons Chamber

[Caroline Lucas]

rose—

[Chris Huhne]

Opposition Members bounce up and down protesting about this issue, but they had the opportunity when they were in government to achieve this—and they did not do it. It is another one of the cock-ups for which, frankly, the Leader of the Opposition was responsible in designing this scheme. I feel for the right hon. Member for Don Valley as she does not have the support of the right hon. Member for Doncaster North, who is not prepared to stand up here and defend what he did when he introduced this scheme.

The fact is that these returns are funded by consumers through their energy bills, and they are unsustainable. If we allowed them to continue unchecked, they would burn through the entire budget in a matter of months. If we do not act now, the entire feed-in tariffs budget for the current spending review period will be fully committed by next spring.

[Chris Huhne]

Let me make this point, and then I will give way to the hon. Member for Brighton, Pavilion (Caroline Lucas).

With the current tariffs, each extra installation means that two fewer installations can be funded at the tariff levels. Every time the right hon. Lady or other Opposition Members say that we should not act—that we should defer dealing with the mistakes Labour made in introducing the scheme—they are condemning the industry to less growth than it would otherwise enjoy.

[Caroline Lucas]

I am frustrated by the Secretary of State’s implication that Opposition Members do not accept that the tariffs must come down, as of course they must. Does he accept that six months ago the solar industry itself asked for them to be reduced by 25%? The reason for the chaos we are experiencing is the incompetence of this Government.

[Chris Huhne]

I absolutely do not accept that. Not a single solar installer to whom I have spoken does not say that tariffs must fall, and on that point I entirely agree, but that was not the case before. This is another of the key cock-ups made by the Leader of the Opposition when he was doing the job that I am now doing. He failed to learn from the experience of Germany, which was very clear: those who introduce a scheme involving solar feed-in tariffs must introduce an automatic digression to take account of the real world. But of course Opposition Members are not very familiar or comfortable with the real world of business. The fact is that there should have been a reduction in the tariffs as a matter of automaticity.

Annual Energy Statement

Debate between Chris Huhne and Caroline Lucas

Wednesday 23rd November 2011 Commons Chamber

[Chris Huhne]

I am grateful to my hon. Friend for making that point. He is absolutely right. If we are going to introduce minimum standards for offshore oil and gas—the Commission has been kind enough to say they should be modelled on those for the UK continental shelf—that should be on the basis of a directive, so that we can use our own legal means to enforce the standards, rather than a regulation. A regulation that would apply directly in all the member states would be inappropriate because countries’ circumstances are inevitably different.

[Caroline Lucas (Brighton, Pavilion) (Green)]

In spite of the warm words about the importance of tackling fuel poverty, next year will be the first year in three decades when there has not been a Treasury-funded scheme to do precisely that. Instead, we have a regressive scheme that will fund the energy company obligation through a levy on fuel bills. As the ECO will be split into two pots—the hard to treat and the fuel poor—will the Secretary of State ensure that the latter group does not end up in effect subsidising the former, by making sure he focuses on the fuel poor, the 1.9 million households in fuel poverty who happen to live in hard-to-treat homes?

[Chris Huhne]

The hon. Lady will know that I am passionately committed to helping the fuel poor. That is why we have increased the amount of warm home discount compared with the voluntary schemes. I disagree with her that the ECO subsidy is an ineffective way of reaching such people or that it is more regressive than other schemes. The fact that the previous scheme was Exchequer-funded was by the bye. What is important is achieving the key outcome of tackling the root causes of fuel poverty, and that we will do.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Chris Huhne and Caroline Lucas

Thursday 20th October 2011 Commons Chamber

[Caroline Lucas (Brighton, Pavilion) (Green)]

Analysis commissioned by G20 Finance Ministers shows that applying a carbon price to international transport fuels will both reduce emissions and generate billions of pounds for climate finance for developing countries. What assessment has the Secretary of State made of that report, and what discussions is he having with ministerial colleagues about agreeing a UK position on it in advance of the Durban climate conference?

[Chris Huhne]

I am particularly keen on this area, as I was on the UN Secretary-General’s advisory group on finance that recommended that it should go forward and that the G20 should look at it. We are having continuing discussions, and I am very hopeful that this is one of the most fruitful areas in which we can raise climate finance for developing countries.

Weightman Report (Fukushima)

Debate between Chris Huhne and Caroline Lucas

Tuesday 11th October 2011 Commons Chamber

[Chris Huhne]

The hon. Gentleman is absolutely right to point that out, and a key issue for our ministerial team and the Department is ensuring that the lights stay on. A quarter of our power plants are due for retirement in the next 10 years, and we need to replace all of those. Almost all our existing nuclear plants will come offline by 2023, as will a substantial amount of fossil fuel plants, and we are determined to ensure that the lights stay on.

[Caroline Lucas (Brighton, Pavilion) (Green)]

I find it shocking that the Secretary of State has had to be dragged here by the urgent question asked by the hon. Member for Newport West (Paul Flynn), but I am glad that he is here because I want to ask him about flooding. The ONR’s interim report stated that there is potential for flooding to occur in the near vicinity of nuclear sites and it went on to say, crucially, that that risk is unknown because

“the detailed specific likelihood and consequences of flooding have not been assessed”

by the regulators. The final report concludes:

“Flooding risks are unlikely to prevent construction of new nuclear power stations”.

How can the Secretary of State be so sure that there is no risk from flooding, given that the ONR has said that it has not had the ability to check that?

[Chris Huhne]

The hon. Lady is quite wrong to suggest that I have been dragged here; I am very happy to talk on this subject at any time but, unfortunately, we know that there are other matters with which the House has to deal. Let me address the key point on flooding, which was a question that I specifically asked Dr Weightman at the beginning of the process. We will not have seismic events like those in Japan; the biggest seismic event in the UK took place in 1931 on Dogger bank, and I believe that the Japanese earthquake was 35,000 times as strong. However, this country does have natural cataclysms. We know, from the flash flooding that has sometimes occurred at the top of hills when drains have been overwhelmed, that we can get a flood risk. That is precisely why I asked Dr Weightman to examine this matter. There is flood risk from storm surges and flash floods. That is taken into account in the system and we are dealing with it site by site to ensure that these sites can continue to operate with satisfactory back-up systems regardless of the events.

Electricity Market Reform

Debate between Chris Huhne and Caroline Lucas

Tuesday 12th July 2011 Commons Chamber

[Chris Huhne]

I do not accept my hon. Friend's analysis. Nick Stern has described the failure to take account of the carbon consequences of our actions as the greatest market failure of all time. Sometimes we have to incorporate the consequences of our actions for the environment into the market decision. That is what we are doing.

[Caroline Lucas (Brighton, Pavilion) (Green)]

Given that electricity market reform will lead to windfall profits for existing nuclear plant of at least £50 million a year and given the rising concerns about fuel poverty, of which the Secretary of State will be aware, will the Government introduce a windfall tax on nuclear and use the revenue to help those living in fuel poverty?

[Chris Huhne]

The hon. Lady is referring, I think, to the potential impact of the carbon price floor, which will of course begin in 2013 and then rise slowly. There will be no impact of the type that she is suggesting until its introduction. It must be considered alongside all the measures we are introducing to save energy and protect those in fuel poverty.

Nuclear Industry Safety

Debate between Chris Huhne and Caroline Lucas

Wednesday 18th May 2011 Commons Chamber

[Chris Huhne]

There may well be longer-term implications. The key conclusions of the interim report relate to the potential choice of sites, for example, and therefore the implications for national policy statements and the new nuclear programme. We now need to look at any implications for the generic design assessments and the design of new nuclear reactors. There may also be longer-term implications for civil contingencies, as Dr Weightman points out. We will very much keep those matters under review.

[Caroline Lucas (Brighton, Pavilion) (Green)]

Once again, the Secretary of State has claimed that new nuclear will not receive a public subsidy. However, in its report on electricity market reform, the Select Committee on Energy and Climate Change says that the Government’s proposals are designed to give nuclear a substantial subsidy. Can the Secretary of State explain why there is such a difference of view between him and the Select Committee?

[Chris Huhne]

The hon. Lady will be aware, even after only a year in the House, that it is not the first time—[Interruption.] I was a colleague of the hon. Lady in the European Parliament for six years, and I have enormous respect for her. However, she will know from her experience both in the European Parliament and here that it is not entirely unknown for Ministers and Select Committees to reach different views on these issues. The key point is that there is a huge difference between offsetting the market failure—which, as Lord Stern pointed out, has been

“the greatest market failure of all time”

—and subsidies directed at a particular way of doing that.

Fourth Carbon Budget

Debate between Chris Huhne and Caroline Lucas

Tuesday 17th May 2011 Commons Chamber

[Chris Huhne]

My hon. Friend knows that the lead Department on zero-carbon homes is the Department for Communities and Local Government. It has set out its thoughts on this issue. I am pleased to see that we intend to continue with the substantial improvement in energy efficiency standards in the 2013 and 2016 building regulations. On that basis, we will move quickly towards a zero-carbon homes standard, which will make a major contribution to meeting our long-term carbon reduction goals of 80% by 2050.

[Caroline Lucas (Brighton, Pavilion) (Green)]

I welcome the Government’s acceptance of a 50% emissions cut by 2025, but like others I am deeply concerned that behind a headline that looks so good in theory is something that risks being a sham. In reality, a significant proportion of the reduction will be happening in other countries. What impact does the Secretary of State expect that to have on the “green industrial transformation” that he says that he wants? Such a transformation will not happen if we pay other countries to do the work for us.

[Chris Huhne]

I can add very little to what I have already said to the right hon. Member for Oldham West and Royton (Mr Meacher). We are, in fact, dealing with a period that is very far off—well beyond the normal range of economic forecasting—and it is sensible for us to exercise a measure of flexibility in the way in which we achieve our aim. However, I can assure the hon. Lady—as I assured the right hon. Member for Oldham West and Royton—that we intend to meet this budget from our domestic activity. That is absolutely in line with everything that I have said about encouraging low-carbon goods and services.

The hon. Lady should also bear in mind that even the flexibility that is afforded by trading will be limited by the existence or otherwise of far cheaper opportunities to ameliorate the position by mitigating carbon emissions outside the country rather than inside it. I believe that the more we invest in the industries that I have mentioned, and the more “learning by doing” that we do, the greater will be the chance of our meeting our targets entirely from domestic activity, which is what we intend to do.

Energy Bill [Lords]

Debate between Chris Huhne and Caroline Lucas

Tuesday 10th May 2011 Commons Chamber

[Joan Ruddock]

rose—

[Caroline Lucas (Brighton, Pavilion) (Green)]

rose—

[Chris Huhne]

I give way to the hon. Lady who has not yet intervened.

[Caroline Lucas]

I am grateful for the opportunity to speak. Is it not the case that the golden rule will not help people in fuel poverty much because they are far more likely to feel any green deal benefits through greater thermal comfort rather than through reduced fuel bills? The energy company obligation pot does not have much money in it, although £2 billion is a good start. However, even that is being paid for by a levy on consumers’ bills, and there is research to suggest that that mechanism will push more people into fuel poverty than it pulls out.

[Chris Huhne]

I do not agree with the hon. Lady’s assessment. It is important to deal with people in fuel poverty. The energy company obligation, as she pointed out, will enable us to fund green deal measures for those in fuel poverty. The ECO will ensure that people, such as the stereotypical little old lady in her extremely draughty home who could suffer from hypothermia, can enjoy more comfort and do not have to generate energy savings to install insulation. The hon. Lady is right that we want such people to have more comfort and to enjoy a higher temperature, because we do not want to see our fellow citizens dying from hypothermia. Providing more comfort is explicitly allowed for in the Bill, and we have just introduced legislative measures for the warm home discount. We want to ensure that there are means through the green deal to tackle the root of the problem of fuel poverty, and to deal with fuel poverty problems for those who have not benefited from that.

--- Later in debate ---

[Chris Huhne]

If I may, I am going to make some progress.

We will focus our resources on where they can do the most good. That means finding practical solutions to identify households that need the most support. We are determined to get to grips with the causes of fuel poverty, not just the symptoms, but the tools at our disposal are not up to the job. That is why I have asked Professor John Hills to conduct an independent review of the fuel poverty target and definition, so that we can understand the problem and what we can do to fix it, and also be held to account as a Government for the progress that we make. The review will produce an interim report in the autumn and a final report early in 2012.

For too long, a sizeable minority of tenants has suffered from higher bills and colder homes. Privately rented houses are more likely to have the lowest energy efficiency rating than those that are owned outright.

[Caroline Lucas]

I thank the Secretary of State for giving way again. Are not tenants unlikely to challenge their landlords on the introduction of the green deal because of a fear of retaliatory eviction? Would it not be much more effective to introduce minimum energy efficiency standards that landlords have to keep to if they want to put their buildings on the market?

[Chris Huhne]

The hon. Lady anticipates a point that I will turn to very soon.

Landlords do not want to invest because tenants benefit; tenants do not want to invest because they will move on. By linking the green deal measures to the property, not the tenant, the Bill bridges that divide. With the green deal, everybody wins. Landlords will face no up-front costs; tenants will keep warm for less.

I welcome many of the positive responses that we have had from landlords to the prospect of the green deal. However, some individuals and organisations feel that we are not committed to securing improvements to the least energy-efficient properties in the private rented sector. Many tenants suffer appalling conditions without the power to agree improvements with their landlords. The debate has been lively, and we have listened. That is why I am pleased to announce that we will change the current provisions to make it clear that we will regulate. This is significant step and a marker of our intent. From 2016, any tenant or their representatives asking for their landlord’s consent to make reasonable energy efficiency improvements cannot be refused. From 2018, the rental of the very worst performing properties—those rated F and G—will be banned through a minimum energy efficiency standard. We will of course seek to work with landlords well in advance to support their take-up of the green deal. The precise form of these regulations will be subject to the usual scrutiny processes.

We also remain committed to ensuring that all councils play a role in delivering the green deal. The recent memorandum of understanding between DECC and the Local Government Group recognises the enthusiasm that councils have for delivering the green deal.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Chris Huhne and Caroline Lucas

Thursday 24th March 2011 Commons Chamber

[Chris Huhne]

I am mindful of it. That is an interesting argument which has been made in many quarters. It is absolutely crucial, comparing the debate in this country with those in other countries such as Germany, that we should base it on the facts and the evidence. That is precisely why I asked Dr Mike Weightman to produce a report—so that we can have a sensible and measured debate based on the facts and the evidence.

[Caroline Lucas (Brighton, Pavilion) (Green)]

Could the Secretary of State say a little more about the assessment he has made of the potential rise in costs of the fleet of new nuclear following the Fukushima disaster? Will he comment in particular on the likelihood that the Japan accident will make it more difficult for private investors to raise capital to build the eight new reactors that are planned by the Government?

[Chris Huhne]

On the first point, it is too early to answer the hon. Lady until we have had the report from Dr Weightman and we can understand whether we need improvements in our regulatory regime and whether there are lessons to be learned. There are substantial differences between the Japanese situation and ours but I am determined that we should learn any lessons we can. On the second point, although I spent many years in financial markets I do not claim to know how they will react to particular events as they can often react in a rather faddish and fashionable manner. I think we will just have to wait and see.

--- Later in debate ---

[Chris Huhne]

I have said in answer to previous questions that we will engage in ongoing discussions with energy-intensive users. We want them to use low-carbon electricity, and a number of them are doing that, including by moving to biomass. There are alternatives, and there is flexibility in, for example, the EU emissions trading scheme, which allows us to help.

[Caroline Lucas (Brighton, Pavilion) (Green)]

What assessment has the Secretary of State made of the damage done to business confidence by his extraordinary U-turn on support for mid-sized solar installations, and of the 14,000 new jobs that were in the UK solar industry precisely because of that? How many of those jobs will be lost as a result of that extraordinary decision?

[Chris Huhne]

The hon. Lady has to be aware that sadly, in the world in which Ministers operate, we have to assess the alternatives. Had we not acted, the alternative would have been a much greater boom and bust and a much greater destruction of confidence. I am absolutely unhesitating in assuring her that solar industry confidence is substantially higher than it would have been if we had taken the action that she suggests.

Electricity Market Reform

Debate between Chris Huhne and Caroline Lucas

Thursday 16th December 2010 Commons Chamber

[Chris Huhne]

I am grateful to my hon. Friend for his question because Ministers and senior officials were discussing that subject with representatives of the industry only this week. We had an interesting and useful round-table discussion about exactly that. I do not believe that top-down solutions are the right solutions, and therefore the planning framework that gives local communities real control over what happens in their area is absolutely crucial. At the same time, one message that we heard loud and clear from the industry is that where the industry has brought in local communities, often as co-investors, and where there is a clear benefit for the local community from renewable energy projects, including onshore wind, those projects go ahead. I think that is the right way forward.

[Caroline Lucas (Brighton, Pavilion) (Green)]

I welcome part of the statement, although certainly not the part on nuclear, and I suspect that the devil will lie in the detail of the rest. For example, can the Secretary of State confirm what level of emission performance standards he intends to introduce, and whether both coalition partners remain committed to their pre-election position that any standard will be set at the equivalent of the emissions of a modern gas plant—in other words, 300 to 400 grams of CO₂ per kWh?

[Chris Huhne]

We are consulting on two levels, as the hon. Lady will see in the documentation: 450 and 600 grams. There is inevitably a certain margin of error, but she will see that those are the two points in consultation.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Chris Huhne and Caroline Lucas

Thursday 16th December 2010 Commons Chamber

[Caroline Lucas (Brighton, Pavilion) (Green)]

In the light of the role that the World Bank could play in establishing and managing the new green climate fund, which was set up following the Cancun agreements, will the Secretary of State comment on the current level of fossil fuel lending undertaken by the World Bank group, and will he support a major shift to lending for renewables instead?

[Chris Huhne]

The Government have repeatedly said, and I entirely agree, that the lending practices of the World Bank and other institutions must reflect the overwhelming need that we have as a globe to move towards a low-carbon economy. It is certainly dispiriting to find that that need was not reflected in some of the loans that were approved recently by the World Bank.

Redfern Inquiry

Debate between Chris Huhne and Caroline Lucas

Tuesday 16th November 2010 Commons Chamber

[Chris Huhne]

I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for his question. As he knows, I am very committed to continued employment in the nuclear industry and the importance of his area to it, and I visited Sellafield shortly after I became Secretary of State. We very much want to maintain that dialogue. I am keen to take up any issues of concern to his constituents and employees in the industry about their health care or anything else. He can rely on my support on that.

The funding streams are obviously an issue for the Department of Health, but I do not think the hon. Gentleman would want us to go down the route of allying particular health funding streams to their causes—that, for instance, road accident matters should be funded by the Department for Transport or that nuclear health streams should be funded by the Department of Energy and Climate Change. However, he can be assured of my support in ensuring that the care available is outstanding.

[Caroline Lucas (Brighton, Pavilion) (Green)]

One of the most disturbing elements is the culture of secrecy that allowed body parts not only to be taken without permission but later to be disposed of as waste in the low-level waste depository at Drigg. Many living relatives will be deeply distressed to think of their loved ones being treated in such a callous way. Does the Secretary of State agree that that culture of secrecy still surrounds the nuclear industry and can be a barrier to proper scrutiny and accountability? What measures will he take to challenge it?

[Chris Huhne]

The hon. Lady recognises—I hope—that there have been improvements in recent years in the openness of the industry. I believe it understands the importance of public confidence, because it is a very different industry from the one that existed during the decades in which these practices were undertaken. One way of securing and retaining public confidence is to be as open and transparent about practices as possible, and as the Secretary of State responsible for the industry, I am extremely keen that that should be the case. I want the industry’s practices—particularly its safety practices, but respect for those who work in the industry too—to be maintained at the highest possible level. If the hon. Lady has particular concerns, I would be very happy to deal with them either in correspondence or in the normal way through parliamentary answers.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Chris Huhne and Caroline Lucas

Thursday 16th September 2010 Commons Chamber

[Chris Huhne]

I am very happy to deal with any specific cases that my hon. Friend raises. I ask him to write to me, please, and I shall ensure that officials advise and that we come back to him. As a ministerial team, one of the things that we are determined to do is try to ensure that we have a framework, so that when we make an offer to provide an incentive for renewable energy, investors can rely on it. We are determined to avoid some of the criticism that has been made of our EU partners, who have changed the arrangements with retrospective effect.

[Caroline Lucas (Brighton, Pavilion) (Green)]

Will the Government backdate the clean energy cashback scheme and any future renewable heat incentive to ensure that those who pioneer the technology are properly rewarded and supported?