Tax Credits: Concentrix

Craig Mackinlay Excerpts

Wednesday 14th September 2016 Commons Chamber

[Jane Ellison]

I thank the right hon. Gentleman for his comments on the priority given to resolving problems of this nature. It is worth reiterating that, through the contract, we have secured more than £280 million of identified savings in terms of error and fraud. There continues to be considerable fraud, particularly with regard to whether people live singularly in a household. It is important to recognise that the contract has brought important benefits to the taxpayer.

I recognise the right hon. Gentleman’s challenge on the nature of the contract. Such contracts have their place, but they must work appropriately. The contract must work to do the thing it set out to do, but it must at all times work for taxpayers and, above all, for the vulnerable. I will reflect on his wider point if I may, but I give him reassurance on that general point.

[Craig Mackinlay (South Thanet) (Con)]

All hon. Members will have received a deluge recently of harrowing cases of people who have had calls from and interaction with Concentrix. They were unsure at first whether the company existed and whether they had received a scam letter, which we see far too often. There has been a poor delay in opening post, and getting through on the telephone has been next to impossible. That service level is unacceptable in the public sector. Will the Minister confirm that her very strong announcement today, which is welcome, shows that the Government are committed to helping the vulnerable immediately and accurately?

[Jane Ellison]

I hope we have shown that. We have important contracts across the Government with people to provide services, but clearly they need to be provided to an acceptable standard. The decision is not to renew the contract. In taking that decision, HMRC has clearly taken into account operational performance. The focus for all of us—Ministers, HMRC and individual Members acting in their constituency capacities—is to ensure that our most vulnerable constituents are supported as soon as possible to ensure that the money to which they are correctly entitled hits their bank accounts and they do not have the stress of wondering where the money will come from.

Oral Answers to Questions

Craig Mackinlay Excerpts

Tuesday 19th July 2016 Commons Chamber

[Mr Hammond]

We have already had this question from the shadow Chancellor. Of course, we have introduced the national living wage, which will make a difference to people on low earnings at the bottom of the income scale. Interestingly, the hon. Lady perhaps hints at something else—questions of inter-generational fairness. The Prime Minister signalled early on in her tenure of office that that is one of the areas that she wishes to address.

[Craig Mackinlay (South Thanet) (Con)]

I congratulate my right hon. Friends and indeed the entire new Treasury team.

With some softening of the market in house sales, will my right hon. Friend commit to looking at the data and consider whether the 3% additional stamp duty on second property purchases is necessary, desirable or indeed raises any additional revenue at all?

[Mr Hammond]

I can certainly commit to looking at the data, and I can tell my hon. Friend that my approach to taxation is that it is there for a simple purpose: to raise revenue for the Exchequer. I expect the taxes we put in place to achieve that.

Fixed Odds Betting Terminals

Craig Mackinlay Excerpts

Tuesday 26th April 2016 Westminster Hall

[Dr Lisa Cameron (East Kilbride, Strathaven and Lesmahagow) (SNP)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship today, Sir Alan. I congratulate the hon. Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon) on securing this important debate and setting out an extremely detailed position. I declare an interest, having worked in addiction services as a psychologist for a number of years.

It is true that gambling has been a problem in society for many years. However, problem gamblers have told me that the fact that it is possible to gamble at all hours of the day and night exacerbates their difficulties. The description of fixed odds betting terminals as the crack cocaine of gambling has already been referred to. Patients have described addiction to those machines to me: the loss of large sums of money—hundreds of pounds in an instant—and the insufferable pain that relapses of such magnitude cause to families and children, who can become impoverished because of debt and instability.

Gambling, like many other addictions, also causes people to engage in behaviour that they might not otherwise. Those who have had periods of problem gambling have spoken about stealing from society and from their families to support their habit. That has an impact on social services and the criminal justice system. The machines we are discussing are among the most addictive set-ups, because they involve repetitive behaviour, random reward and very high stakes, so problem gamblers are soon chasing their tail and trying to recoup money they have lost. The availability of the machines, virtually on the high street, is a cause for grave concern. People who are vulnerable to gambling addiction describe seeing them everywhere, finding it difficult to abstain, and relapsing even if they pop out to the shops for bread and milk.

I would argue that debt causes depression and mental health problems, and we have heard that at worst it can cause suicide. Those issues have an impact on the health service. Other types of gambling have been mentioned, such as the national lottery, but I have had discourse with patients who have stated that betting on the lottery is not as addictive, because they have to wait some time to get the result. The issue with these machines is their instantaneous and repetitive nature.

I will not speak for too long, because I wish everyone to be able to speak. I have significant concerns about the availability of these machines, the number of them in shops and the number of shops that have them, the level of the stakes and the level of supervision of vulnerable individuals. I ask the Minister to look at that.

[Craig Mackinlay (South Thanet) (Con)]

Will the hon. Lady give way?

[Dr Cameron]

I cannot give way, because I want others to have the chance to speak.

I support a responsible gambling industry. We all like to have a flutter occasionally or pop into a casino on a night out—very occasionally, I add—but I urge the Minister to act. We need a balance. Vulnerable individuals are being gravely affected by these machines, and we need to address that through independent research and by developing safe and responsible policy.

Domestic Politically Exposed Persons: Money Laundering Rules

Craig Mackinlay Excerpts

Wednesday 20th January 2016 Commons Chamber

[Mr Walker]

That is an outrageous act by banks. The banks would argue that they are not public utilities, but my response would be that they are, because it is taxpayers and us who have bailed them out. They have a responsibility to behave responsibly, whether it be to Members of Parliament, small businesses or our constituents.

We are now faced with the somewhat laughable situation that not only Members of Parliament are being assessed as high risk in regards to money laundering, but their extended families are, too. On the basis of this Chamber alone, that puts nearly 10,000 people in the frame.

In common with all parts of the population, Members of Parliament can, of course, do bad and stupid things. That has always been the case and always will be the case. When it comes to our elected politicians, however, it is impossible to imagine a more scrutinised group. Not only do we have to register details of our commercial activities with the Register of Members’ Financial Interests—under pain, in extremis, of being dismissed from this place if we fail to do so—but we have the likes of The Daily Telegraph, the Daily Mail and Channel 4’s “Dispatches” breathing down our necks in the hope of catching the slightest whiff of wrongdoing.

Indeed, it often comes as a great disappointment to our pursuers that so few of us cavort with international despots and criminal masterminds. The much less glamorous truth is that most Back Benchers indulge in far more mundane but worthy pursuits, such as trying to sort out our constituents’ housing and street-lighting problems. Indeed, the tiny fraction of Back-Bench colleagues who lead altogether more politically racy lifestyles are well known to the media, with their activities well reported. It must be remarked, “Oh, what a friend the banks’ compliance departments have in Fleet Street and the House of Commons Press Lobby.”

That, of course, leaves Ministers, but again the Executive discretion Ministers have in relation to contracts is minimal. The tendering process is conducted by civil servants, with the Minister passed a single name to sign off on or, if they are lucky, perhaps the option of two names, with the chance to exercise a smidgeon of discretion given only under the careful watch of the permanent secretary.

In concluding my comments, I say this to the Minister and the banks: regulation needs to be proportionate to the risk.

[Craig Mackinlay (South Thanet) (Con)]

I would like to put my experience on the record. The 81-year-old mentioned in my hon. Friend’s speech a few moments ago was indeed my father. He has been with the same bank for over 50 years. He was asked into the bank to answer detailed probing questions about his banking and other activities. Understandably, my father told the bank that he was not going to do so. As for my own experience, I had a two-hour interview with a banking institution that required information about everything about every bank account I have owned for the last two years. This is simply over-gold plating, and we are seeing it too often in the money laundering regulations.

[Mr Walker]

I thank my hon. Friend for his useful intervention. In response, I would say that regulation needs to be proportionate to the risk, with the highest-risk bank customers attracting the most scrutiny from their compliance departments and the Financial Conduct Authority.

It may well be the case that intelligence suggests that an individual MP is up to no good, and, of course, that MP should be investigated thoroughly, but the banks and the FCA seem to be eschewing an intelligence-led approach in favour of an unfocused tick-box exercise.

Oral Answers to Questions

Craig Mackinlay Excerpts

Tuesday 19th January 2016 Commons Chamber

[Greg Hands]

As I mentioned earlier, the UK has a good future in terms of the trade deficit and improving statistics. UKTI will also be playing an important role here. On the announcements we made today on trade policy, one of the most important things we can do is adopt a whole-of-government approach to improving the approach we take to trade and boosting our exports.

[Craig Mackinlay (South Thanet) (Con)]

My constituency contains a niche amusement machine manufacturer, Harry Levy Amusement Contractor Ltd, which supplies global export markets. What help and support can my right hon. Friend offer to exporters so that we can really achieve the new, cross-government approach to exports launched today by the Business Secretary and the Trade Minister Lord Maude?

[Greg Hands]

I have been to my hon. Friend’s constituency quite a few times over the past year and a half, but I do not think I have had the particular pleasure of meeting the company he mentions. I am very happy to meet him and that company, or perhaps to meet Lord Maude, if that is more appropriate, to see what could be done to help exporters in South Thanet.

Spending Review and Autumn Statement

Craig Mackinlay Excerpts

Wednesday 25th November 2015 Commons Chamber

[Mr Osborne]

There is additional support for disabled people who want to get into work. There is help for people who have been unemployed for 18 months through our help to work scheme. The additional conditionality that the hon. Gentleman refers to relates to people who are currently on housing benefit but do not face that conditionality. Housing benefit is becoming part of universal credit, so that is one category of people we can extend the conditionality to.

[Craig Mackinlay (South Thanet) (Con)]

May I follow my hon. Friend the Member for Faversham and Mid Kent (Helen Whately) in offering words of thanks from the people of Kent for the £250-million commitment to find a permanent solution to Operation Stack? Kent MPs should go and see the Chancellor more regularly. Does he agree that Kent, which is on the frontline of cross-border trade and movement of people, deserves special treatment and, at times, spending?

[Mr Osborne]

Kent is a very special place as the garden of England. My hon. Friend and other hon. Friends from Kent came to see me and made a compelling argument about what happens to local roads when the channel tunnel is blocked and how that affects his constituents and people in Folkestone near the tunnel mouth. We are making a quarter of a billion pound commitment to finding a permanent solution to that problem. I congratulate him and other Kent MPs on a successful campaign.

Common System of VAT (Vouchers)

Craig Mackinlay Excerpts

Monday 2nd November 2015 General Committees

[Craig Mackinlay (South Thanet) (Con)]

It may help the Committee if I take a few moments to explain the background to the document and the reason that the European Scrutiny Committee in the previous Parliament recommended it for debate—it has been some time coming. The 2006 principal VAT directive consolidates the legislation governing VAT in the European Union to ensure smooth operation of the single market and equal treatment for all businesses trading across the EU.

The directive lays down rules to ensure a consistent approach to the questions about how much VAT is charged, when it should be declared and to which tax jurisdiction the tax should be paid. However, vouchers can present difficulties in relation to all those questions. The increase in cross-border use and distribution of vouchers, and the differences in treatment between member states, are some of the main causes of double or, indeed, non-taxation.

In May 2012, the Commission issued the proposal for a directive to amend the principal VAT directive to clarify and harmonise the rules on the VAT treatment of vouchers. The entitlements of the holder of a voucher are typically for goods or services or to receive a discount or a rebate in relation to a sale or a supplier. The issuer assumes an obligation to supply goods or services, to give the discount or to pay the rebate. In defining a voucher that way, the draft directive identifies it as an object in itself that can itself be supplied, meaning that the extensive distribution services in place for vouchers would be subject to VAT.

At the same time, a system for vouchers needs to recognise that, although VAT on any distribution service is captured, there is only one payment for the underlying goods or services for which the voucher acts as evidence of the right to receive. Thus, the draft directive would define supplying of the right to receive as a supply and would have subsequent supply viewed as a single transaction.

Negotiations in the Council of this complex—I think the Committee has gathered that so far—and somewhat technical proposal has been long drawn out. It has not been clear what the final shape of the amending directive might be. Accordingly, the previous European Scrutiny Committee recommended this debate to enable Members to explore the details of the proposed solutions to a complex problem, and the possible consequences for UK businesses. The current Committee endorses that recommendation.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Gauke]

It would be fair to say that there is some complexity in the current system because of inconsistency. The hon. Gentleman asks whether the draft directive will disrupt businesses because they will have to deal with a new regime. I would argue that it will not cause major disruption to businesses here. The most likely to be affected would be large, high street chains. High street shops that issue vouchers through distributors to other businesses would be most affected. Those that issue vouchers direct to their customers would be least affected.

Whether a business will be affected significantly will depend on the balance between the two types of operation within the same business. Some high street retailers issue both types of voucher. Some distributors might want to change their business model from buying or selling vouchers to arranging the sale of vouchers. That is quite possible.

Officials have had wide-ranging discussions with UK businesses on the changes. Although there may be some changes and disruption, the general feedback that officials have received from businesses is that they would welcome certainty on the matter in the future. Again, I make the point that, for the first time, VAT law would have a specific provision for VAT treatment of vouchers, which would mean that EU member states would have the same rules, making cross-border trading using vouchers far easier. Businesses would no longer have to set up different systems for different countries.

To give a topical example, the provisions would also make the collection of VAT on mobile phone roaming charges far simpler. The new rules would allow the UK to make changes to our law to make it easier to collect the right amount of tax on what the customer pays when using a voucher. Yes, there will be some disruption to and impact on high street retailers but, on balance, if an agreement can be reached, this is a favourable change.

[Craig Mackinlay]

To try to put into context the type of transaction that might be caught, I am thinking particularly of business-to-business transactions. I am not quite sure whether there is a voucher, but there must be one somewhere along the line. A reverse charge could come into play for some voucher that represents goods that could be redeemable elsewhere.

The rules for business-to-consumer transactions are obviously different. I would have thought that the most relevant example relates to the new digital services one-stop-shop rules that have applied since 1 January. I am thinking about an Apple iTunes or Google Play voucher, which I assume could be used on a computer in Germany to get a service delivered in Germany. The string of transactions could be complicated, but I am trying to understand how that might work under the scheme. I would assume that the German supplier of an iTunes service—whatever it is—would then be deemed to come under the German one-stop-shop arrangements.

I am also thinking about unusual transactions such as a restaurant discount voucher. Many companies in the UK offer diners the opportunity to join for a certain amount a year what is almost a club that allows a discount in restaurants. That would not cause difficulties in the UK, because I would imagine that joining the club is a chargeable supply, as is actually paying the reduced amount in a restaurant. It is just VAT. However, I am struggling to get my head around how it would work across borders. I am sorry to cause difficulties, but I want to understand how things might work in transactions, which makes the issue rather more important.

[Mr Gauke]

In part, I would go back to the principles that I set out in my opening remarks. As for business-to-business transactions for promotion purposes, to the extent that the reverse charge applies, that would operate as normal. The one-stop shop referred to by my hon. Friend is for business-to-consumer transactions only. There are some issues relevant to the one-stop shop, but I do not think that anything in particular arises as consequence of VAT on vouchers; the two things stand by themselves. To clarify an earlier remark, discount vouchers, to which the hon. Member for Wolverhampton South West referred, were removed from the proposal by member states, so the measure applies to face-value vouchers only. I hope that that is clear.

Resolved,

That the Committee takes note of European Union Document No. 9926/12 and Addenda 1 and 2, a draft Council Directive amending Directive 2006/112/EC on the common system of value added tax, as regards the treatment of vouchers; welcomes the objective of harmonised VAT rules for vouchers to support a smooth operation of the Single Market and fewer possibilities of double and non-taxation; and further notes that the Government is keen that any solution ensures that the right amount of tax is collected on what the customer pays, in line with the principles of taxation of consumption.—(Mr David Gauke.)

Finance Bill

Craig Mackinlay Excerpts

Monday 26th October 2015 Commons Chamber

[Stella Creasy]

And people say that progress cannot be made in this Chamber or that there cannot be cross-party agreement! The hon. Gentleman is absolutely right. In fact, 10% of girls in Africa do not go to school when they have their periods because they do not have appropriate sanitary protection, so he is right to be concerned about this. What I am saying—let us see whether we can tempt him to make further progress—is that feminism should be without borders; in which case we should be concerned about inequality in the tax rates and VAT that our sisters pay in a range of countries, including those in the European Union.

Tonight we have an opportunity, here in the British Parliament, to show solidarity across the continent and make sure that this issue is part of the negotiating process. Because let us be honest, it was never part of the negotiating process in this House prior to joining the European Community. It was only part of the negotiating process because of Dame Dawn Primarolo. It is a red herring to think that this is about the European Union; rather, it is a recognition that the time has come to end these inequalities. Our sisters in France tried to bring forward legislation just this summer and were defeated. What a strong message of social progress we could send from the British Parliament today by passing this proposal and sending our Prime Minister to have that difficult conversation and to say, “How do we clarify the way in which essential items are categorised across the European Union? How do we make this work for 51% of our population?”

I am sensing from the hon. Member for Stone that he does care about these issues deeply and does recognise the inequality. If he has frustration tonight, it is simply that he is not seeing progress happening quickly enough. Let me reassure him that, whether it takes 20 years or two hours of debate, it is possible to make progress. I urge him to support our new clause, so that we can send our Prime Minister to the European Union with something worth fighting for. We can all hear back from him in February whether he has made progress and been able to say to our French, German and Italians counterparts that tampons and sanitary towels should be treated as necessities in 2015. I am sure that when we hear that message from the Minister tonight, he will give us great succour—that he will use the appropriate terms and bring us all into the 21st century by supporting the new clause as well.

[Craig Mackinlay (South Thanet) (Con)]

May I give my respects to the hon. Member for Dewsbury (Paula Sherriff) for bringing this debate to the House? I have heard some very interesting figures this evening—in particular, that 250,000 people have signed previous amendments and discussion points about this issue over the years, and I know that there have been all sorts of discussions about this very issue for as long as I have been in Parliament.

I am not surprised that new clause 7 has attracted cross-party support, with many Members, both female and male, from the Government, SNP and, obviously, Labour Benches supporting it, and so they absolutely should, because this has always been, and will always be, a wholly illogical tax. We heard some interesting detail from my hon. Friend the Member for St Albans (Mrs Main). I would not know the difference between various products if they were laid out, yet some would be zero-rated and some would be taxed at the lower rate, although this is not just a female issue. I think she described some of these items as “Oops-a-daisy” products, and if there is a male “Oops-a-daisy” product, it would be zero-rated, so we can immediately see these anomalies in the tax system. Nappies have always been zero-rated because they relate to children. Indeed, one of the anomalies that we have enjoyed compared with much of the European Union—how long that will last, who knows—is that children’s products and food continue to be zero-rated, no matter how luxurious the food might appear to some.

--- Later in debate ---

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Natascha Engel)]

Order. The hon. Gentleman must remember that he is speaking through the Chair. I have made no proposals today.

[Craig Mackinlay]

My sincere apologies, Madam Deputy. [Interruption.] You have taken me way off track now.

In conclusion, the hon. Member for Glasgow Central made an appeal earlier for a message or plea to come from this place to the European Union. I think we have heard that from many Labour Members, too. I am afraid this goes back to the very old times of taxation without representation. Messages are all very well, but surely this sovereign place should be able to choose to set the rate of sales tax or VAT on products such as tampons and sanitary towels. I am afraid that it rather reduces the status of this House to one of being a colony of old, pleading with an empire power.

[Alison Thewliss]

The Prime Minister has been traipsing around Europe of late begging and pleading with European leaders all around the place. Would it not perhaps have been useful for him to have raised this issue then and saved himself another visit?

[Craig Mackinlay]

I certainly hope his visits around various European capitals have an awful lot on their agenda. Following today’s debate, I hope this issue will be one such item. The issue is one of exclusivity in setting VAT rates on products important to us in this place, not elsewhere.

[Mr Jenkin]

In response to the hon. Lady’s intervention, is not the point that there are so many issues we want our Prime Minister to raise in the European Union? There is an increasing number of myriad issues, such as how much contribution we make, the free movement of people and how we control our borders. It is these little things—I say “little” mistakenly, because of course it looms large as an equality item in our minds—that get set aside in favour of other things. This is a rotten way of running a continent.

[Craig Mackinlay]

I agree with my hon. Friend. I hope progress can be made on very many areas, not least on this one.

We should not be like a colony pleading with an empire power. This is clearly a rate that should be set here. I thank again the hon. Member for Dewsbury for raising this issue, which, important in itself, has opened a Pandora’s box on who governs this country.

[Roger Mullin]

I rise to speak to new clause 1, which also relates to VAT. I pay tribute to everyone who participated in the previous debate, particularly my hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow Central (Alison Thewliss) who, in Committee, was the first to raise this issue and moved new clause 2. At that time, we were favoured with support from the Labour Benches. They can look forward to us reciprocating that support this evening.

On Second Reading, I focused on the fire and rescue service and its punishment by the UK Government in relation to VAT. I should now like to focus in some detail on Police Scotland, which came into being in 2013. I should say that I have a prejudice in supporting the police, as I am a former academic adviser to the Scottish Police College, and have contributed in the past to training programmes for chief officers, police super- intendents and, most recently, crime analysts.

A key reason for the creation of Police Scotland was, according to the Scottish Government:

“Establishing a single service aims to ensure more equal access to national and specialist services and expertise such as major investigation teams whenever and wherever they are needed.”

Allow me to give a few examples of the effect of creating a single force. Assistant Chief Constable Malcolm Graham, speaking as recently as 29 September 2015, stated:

“Since the advent of Police Scotland, every murder committed has been detected.”

He is overly modest. Such has been the improvement in homicide detection that they have opened old, unsolved cases from when there were eight smaller forces and have already solved five of them. Police Scotland has improved the investigation of rape and sexual crimes across the entire country and is now able to treat rape as seriously as murder. The National Child Abuse Investigation Unit has been established as a specialist unit to support the investigation of complex child abuse and neglect across Scotland. Police Scotland has also been able to tackle intellectual property crime much more effectively, recovering about £20 million in criminal assets and making about 70 arrests. The result has been improvements on areas such as cross border co-operation and terrorism, as I discussed in Committee.

The Government, however, say we must abandon the improvements resulting from Police Scotland to satisfy some old rules established in the Value Added Tax Act 1994. Reflecting on the debate we have just had, this is one area on which the UK Government have it entirely within their power to act reasonably on a matter related to VAT. They have chosen to provide VAT exemptions to other public bodies elsewhere in the United Kingdom, while at the same time completely denying the right of the Scottish police and fire and rescue service to achieve an exemption.

Speaking to the Justice Committee of the Scottish Parliament last November, Chief Constable Sir Stephen House said:

“I do find it bewildering that we seem to be the only police service in the United Kingdom that is charged VAT. None of the 43 forces in England and Wales pay it. And the answer seems to come back from the Treasury, ‘oh, that’s because you’re a central government organisation’. Well, you’ve got the Police Service of Northern Ireland, they don’t pay VAT. And you’ve got the National Crime Agency and they don’t pay VAT—but we pay VAT. I just don’t understand the logic of it and I frankly don’t think the Scottish public would understand it either.”

Consider what the Government have been willing to do on VAT. At the stroke of a pen, the Government made central Government-funded academy schools in England exempt from VAT. For goodness sake, even the BBC does not have to pay VAT. When it suits the Government, and previous British Governments, they have little difficulty in allowing exemptions.

In Committee, the Minister said:

“If the Scottish Government are now reconsidering their position and wish to discuss how the service can be eligible once again for VAT refunds, the Treasury will happily engage with them to advise.”––[Official Report, Finance Public Bill Committee, 17 September 2015; c. 24.]

It is not the Scottish Government who need to reconsider their position, but the UK Government. Although we are talking significant sums for Police Scotland and the Scottish fire and rescue service—in total, in excess of £30 million per annum—it is a mere pittance compared with the overall UK budget. There is no economic rationale for continuing to deny VAT exemption. The Government seem simply to lack the decency to care about policing and fire and rescue services in Scotland. So much for the party of law and order. So much for the respect agenda. Its attitude has about it the stench of duplicity and blind prejudice.

Euro Area

Craig Mackinlay Excerpts

Tuesday 21st July 2015 Westminster Hall

[Craig Mackinlay (South Thanet) (Con)]

I pay particular tribute to my right hon. Friend the Member for Wokingham (John Redwood) for bringing this issue into the public arena. The words of the five presidents need to get out there.

The euro needs to work. It exists much as I foresaw, many years ago. In ’99, when the first 11 got together to have it as their currency—the number has expanded to 18—I foresaw the problems that would arise. On the Floor of the House this morning we heard that we have an adverse balance of payments situation, not least because sterling is strengthening thanks to difficulties in the eurozone. The situation may provide the impetus we now need even more to look rather further afield to our friends and the growing markets outside the EU, which are untainted by the euroland crisis and are more linked to the dollar world.

Some years ago, an insurance company had the strapline, “We never make a drama out of a crisis.” It seems to me that whenever there is a crisis, in the EU generally and in euroland in particular, there is an attempt to make an opportunity out of it. However, it is not used as an opportunity to argue for what we would say is sensible—that perhaps the EU ought to do less; the argument is always that the EU wants more. I suppose that is the new logic. If there is a single currency, then given the pressures and strains of such divergent economies, the logic will be what the five presidents have come up with: there has to be more of the same, and words like “divergence”, “difference”, “independence” and “democracy” have no place in that.

My right hon. Friend mentioned that there are five presidents across the EU. Dombrovskis is the Vice-President for the Euro and Social Dialogue—I must say I had not heard of him before—and his words encapsulate what the situation is moving towards:

“The Economic and Monetary Union has been strengthened in recent years, not least in the light of the financial and economic crisis. Yet it remains incomplete.”

These people want more. They want a competitiveness authority so that there are common wage agreements across borders and a European deposit insurance scheme. Then they claim that Europe needs strengthened democratic accountability. I truly wonder how the people of Greece can reconcile the idea of strengthened democratic accountability with what they have just gone through.

[Richard Drax]

My right hon. Friend the Member for Wokingham made the point that we should not get in the way, because things are going down a path that he rightly identified as the correct one under the circumstances. Perhaps I am being naive, but should we not be screaming from the rooftops, “Stop,” for all the reasons my hon. Friend the Member for South Thanet (Craig Mackinlay) has just mentioned—should we not tell them to get out of this experiment before millions more suffer?

[Craig Mackinlay]

My hon. Friend makes a good point. Unemployment in many parts of euroland is now beyond any measure we have seen in respectable parts of the western world since the crises of the 1930s. For Greece, sadly, that unemployment is perhaps here to stay for a generation, if not more.

I mention Greece, but the people who need to ask themselves where they are going—perhaps they have not yet read the five presidents’ document—are of course the people of Germany. The recipe that the presidents propose is one of massive fiscal transfers guaranteed by the German taxpayer. Such transfers may work in the United States, and the people of Texas may be happy to support their colleagues, friends and family in Dakota, but I wonder whether that really holds true between Germany and Greece, which describes its supposed friends and colleagues in Germany in terms that I have not heard for a very long time.

I again pay tribute to my right hon. Friend the Member for Wokingham, but we need to recognise that what the presidents propose beyond 2017 requires a grand treaty change for the eurozone. If that is for them, fine, but it is certainly not for Britain. We have an opportunity to wrap together what we require, which is a proper treaty change to get a relationship that is in tune with the British people—a return to the free trade and friendship that we thought the EU was all about. Perhaps 2017 can be an excellent year for those who feel as many of my Conservative colleagues do, and they are in tune with many people outside this place and across the country.

I ask the Minister to consider that in the round. A crunch time has come, and it is obvious what our European colleagues want. They have not asked their people, and they dare not ask their people, but it is clear that this is becoming a Euro-state that is not right for Britain. I am in favour of a new relationship that I hope can be found for the good of Europe and for the good of Britain.

Greece

Craig Mackinlay Excerpts

Monday 6th July 2015 Commons Chamber

[Mr Osborne]

We agree that a key issue is Greece’s ability to make its debt repayments. That is self-evidently the case because it failed to make a debt repayment to the IMF last week, and it also has to make a big debt repayment to the European Central Bank. I do not think it is right simply to pick out one piece of the IMF’s advice. It has also stated strongly that the Greek economy needs major structural reform, for example. We have to look at the IMF’s advice in the round, which is why it is such a valuable institution.

[Craig Mackinlay (South Thanet) (Con)]

I cannot help wondering whether the resignation of the Greek Finance Minister, Mr Varoufakis, might result in an opening for the former Chief Secretary to the Treasury, the right hon. Member for Birmingham, Hodge Hill (Liam Byrne). Does my right hon. Friend acknowledge the importance of a strong economy and a plan to eliminate the deficit? Put in simple terms, does he agree that we need to live within our means?

[Mr Osborne]

My hon. Friend is right to say that countries need to live within their means. As a Government, we have addressed that matter over the past five years, and I shall address it again in a couple of days’ time in the Budget. Mr Varoufakis has now resigned, and I shall be moving on to yet another Greek Finance Minister, but I doubt that the next one will have quite the dress style of the one we have just lost.