Sudan

Daniel Kawczynski Excerpts

Thursday 28th April 2011 Westminster Hall

[Daniel Kawczynski (Shrewsbury and Atcham) (Con)]

I, too, convey my thanks to the right hon. Member for Coatbridge, Chryston and Bellshill (Mr Clarke) for securing this debate. During the previous Parliament, I visited Sudan together with Michael Howard and David Steel, both now in the House of Lords. One of the most moving and emotional things that I saw during the course of the previous Parliament was when I spent two days walking through the camps in Darfur and meeting the refugees. I talked to them and saw their living conditions, heard what they and their families had been through and saw the tremendous fear, poverty and appalling brutality that those people had faced for such a long time. At the time, as we see in Hansard, many speeches were made about our concern for the situation in Darfur, yet we seemed unable to influence the situation, much to the concern of many hon. Members.

While my colleagues and I were in Darfur, we spoke with the African Union soldiers who were trying to bring some form of policing to the area, and they expressed concerns about the Sudanese authorities’ intransigent obstruction of their efforts properly and effectively to supervise things. We took those concerns directly to President Omar al-Bashir when we met him at his presidential palace in Khartoum, and despite all my concerns about what had been happening in Darfur, I was extremely pleased by our meeting. I wish that hon. Members could have seen the conviction and effectiveness with which Michael Howard and David Steel negotiated with President Omar al-Bashir during our meeting. I was extremely pleased that changes were subsequently made, and African Union helicopter flights were allowed at night-time to protect innocent civilians.

On a note of optimism, I am pleased at how the referendum has gone. Given all the problems that the country has suffered over such a long period, it is quite a paradigm shift for it to go through the referendum process. That is something to be encouraged and to be grateful for. I met the Sudanese ambassador before the referendum, and he was sure that the country would split. There was a consensus about that; even before the referendum, everybody realised there was a certain inevitability about the country splitting. Of course, this is an extremely controversial issue, as we have heard from colleagues, and terrible difficulties are involved in any divorce. However, the country has somehow managed to go through the referendum process in a relatively peaceful and stable way, and I very much hope that the Minister will acknowledge the progress that has been made.

When I was in Khartoum, I realised that parts of it are like downtown Beijing because of the tremendous influence of the Chinese. I have never seen so much Chinese lettering anywhere in the world, apart from in China. China is all over the country, with huge investments and a massive influence on the Government. It is a pity that there is so much Chinese influence and so little direct British influence. Many politicians told me that all the products in Sudan were British-made in the ’50s and ’60s; everything was made in Britain and then exported to Sudan. Now, there are hardly any British products in Sudan; all the products are Chinese imports.

The reason I have come here is to ask the Minister to work with British business to help expand trade with Sudan. I understand that DFID is all about international aid and assistance, but there must be some interaction and co-operation with British industry to help British business export to Sudan and send people there to assist in the country’s construction. There should be some form of co-operation and engagement between DFID and British business.

[Stephen Pound (Ealing North) (Lab)]

Before the hon. Gentleman moves on from the extremely pertinent question of Chinese influence, which can be seen not only in southern Sudan, but in many other places, will he share with us his view of what lies behind that activity? What is motivating this extraordinarily frenetic expansion, which is originating in China and flourishing in Africa?

[Daniel Kawczynski]

If we look at the map of Africa, we see that the greatest Chinese investment is primarily where the oil reserves are. The hon. Gentleman will recognise that the Chinese are keen to invest. There is huge construction of bridges, railways and other infrastructure to extract the minerals and oil that China so desperately needs for its economy.

I have had many meetings with the Sudanese ambassador to the UK at his embassy, and I pay tribute to him, because he is a good and diligent representative of his country. I have taken British businesses to see him, and he keeps telling me, “Sudan is open for business with the UK. We are desperate”—to return to the point made by the hon. Gentleman—“to detach ourselves from our over-dependence on China. We need to change our economy’s relationships to make sure we interact more with countries in Europe and particularly with the UK.” Many Sudanese people see the UK in an extremely positive way, and they have a long-standing friendship and relationship with us.

This is the first time I have heard of the cancellation of the £1 billion debt owed to Britain, which the right hon. Member for Coatbridge, Chryston and Bellshill highlighted. He asked the Minister to clarify when that debt will be cancelled, and I, too, am very much looking forward to hearing the answer. However, this should not just be a matter of saying, “Oh well, let’s cancel £1 billion of debt,” and we must remember that we are talking about British taxpayers’ money. Our country is heavily indebted, and various facilities are being closed in our constituencies, so £1 billion is a huge amount of taxpayers’ money to think of simply cancelling.

Rather than just cancelling £1 billion of debt, therefore, I suggest that we negotiate with the Sudanese. We should say that we will cancel a proportion of the debt in exchange for their hiring the services of British manufacturing consultancies or companies, which would go to their country to educate their people, set up production and help them set up factories. There must be a quid pro quo interaction between the British Government and Sudan. We should not simply cancel the debt, but cancel some of it and say that we want the Sudanese to use the money to hire the services of British companies.

[Mr Tom Clarke]

I hesitate to intervene in such a thoughtful speech, but it is important to register that much of the debt is interest accrued over the years on borrowing that many people at the time considered reckless. Does the hon. Gentleman accept that?

[Daniel Kawczynski]

The right hon. Gentleman makes a good point, but whether that borrowing was reckless or not, we all take out mortgages, and we normally all have to pay off the debt. Regrettably, some of my constituents have taken out loans that they cannot afford, and I have tried to help them to somehow negotiate their way through those loans. That is difficult, but a contract has been signed. We should show good will to the Sudanese by cancelling some of the debt, but I do not think the right hon. Gentleman would object to our also encouraging them to use some of the resources that would be freed up when they no longer have to pay us interest to engage the services of British engineering and manufacturing consultants in the development and restructuring of their country.

[Stephen Pound]

I do not want to trespass too much on the hon. Gentleman’s generosity of spirit, but, to take up his analogy, nobody would object to paying a mortgage if they got a house out of it. When it comes to debt relief in Africa, however, it is as if the mayor of the town got the house, and the people had to pay the mortgage; that is a much more accurate description. I hope, therefore, that we can unite in praise of the Government, the Minister and DFID for apparently intending to do precisely what my right hon. Friend the Member for Coatbridge, Chryston and Bellshill (Mr Clarke) suggested by writing the debt off.

[Daniel Kawczynski]

I do not want to come across as a Scrooge, and I know how generous the hon. Gentleman is, but a lot of British companies would like to engage and trade with Sudan and do not know how to. DFID has a huge role to play in advertising the opportunities and what is happening in a country, and in ensuring that the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills and British commerce and industry are engaged in helping it to create the prosperity that we desperately need. Sudan will be prosperous long term only through trade, not through aid, as I hope the hon. Gentleman will acknowledge. Sudan is able to become a very wealthy country through increased trade with the UK and to not always be over-dependent on aid.

I served briefly on the Select Committee on International Development in the previous Parliament. We visited many countries in Africa, and one of those visits was to a tiny village on the Ethiopian-Kenyan border. The workers from the non-governmental organisation that had been hired were all French speakers and all the machinery—everything—was Chinese or Japanese. I went to the village to meet the village elders, who said to me, “You know, Mr Kawczynski, we’re very grateful to you and the French Government for providing all this wonderful help for our village.” I said, “We’re not French, we’re British”. They replied, “Oh, what’s Britain got to do with it?” So stripped had DFID become of the British brand—deliberately stripped by Clare Short—that, in many circumstances around the world, there was no linkage at all between the UK and British taxpayers and the good work happening on the ground.

That was a deliberate policy by Clare Short following the scandalous Pergau dam incident, which we all recall, but it went too far. I am very proud and satisfied that British taxpayers are helping the poorest around the world. It is something for which we should all be thankful, but we should not flinch from waving the British flag at the same time and showing how important it is to promote the UK. Can the Minister assure me today that he is engaged directly in helping British commerce to work with Sudan to help to ensure its future prosperity?

--- Later in debate ---

[Daniel Kawczynski]

Does not the hon. Gentleman agree that more of the products that DFID sends abroad—water sanitation items and other things to help people—should be British, even if they are slightly more expensive than the alternatives? DFID should source more British products than it currently does.

[Stephen Pound]

My experience of DFID projects—admittedly, more in central and south America than in Africa—is that the single most important issue is sustainability, not where a product comes from. Many hydraulic kits for wells that have been provided from this country, with the best will in the world, simply do not last because they cannot be repaired and maintained because the parts cannot be sourced locally. That is the tragedy. Of course, if there is a hydraulic water raising factory in the hon. Gentleman’s Shrewsbury and Atcham constituency—there might well be, and if there is not, I am sure that there will be in a couple of weeks—let it cover the globe with its marvellous equipment, but let us also train local people to provide engineering resources so that the equipment can be maintained. We used to say that when the donkeys stop nodding in the oil fields, it takes a great deal to get them nodding again.