Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between David Gauke and John Pugh

Tuesday 25th October 2016 Commons Chamber

[Mr Gauke]

I understand my hon. Friend’s disappointment, and that of his constituents, that Todmorden was not successful in its application to the priority school building programme. We need to prioritise schools with blocks in the very worst condition. I understand that Todmorden’s buildings are now receiving some investment through the local authority, which will have competing priorities for capital resources, but I am sure my hon. Friend will continue to make the case for the school.

[John Pugh (Southport) (LD)]

Given the £180 million overrun on phase one, will the Government be tempted to backfill with second-rate private finance initiative buildings? What role will PFI have in the programme?

[Mr Gauke]

Let me address our record. We have spent £18 billion since 2010 on the school estate and we are committed to a further £23 billion so that pupils can be taught in facilities that are fit for the 21st century. We of course want to ensure that that is funded in the most appropriate, value for money and sustainable way.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between David Gauke and John Pugh

Tuesday 19th January 2016 Commons Chamber

[Mr Gauke]

Of course, my hon. Friend made his representations in a robust and forthright way in our meeting yesterday. I am sure that HMRC will be reflecting on that. Assuming that staff are relocated from Southend to Stratford, they will be compensated for their additional transport costs for up to three years and will benefit from London weighting, given that they will have moved to Stratford.

[John Pugh (Southport) (LD)]

How exactly is any of this reorganisation going to do anything about the depressing call handling statistics of HMRC? Will the Minister guarantee an improvement?

[Mr Gauke]

At the moment, call handling is at a higher level than it has been for many years. It was certainly the case that in spring of last year call handling standards were not at an acceptable level, but HMRC has made significant improvements and I hope it will continue to make progress.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between David Gauke and John Pugh

Tuesday 1st December 2015 Commons Chamber

[Mr Gauke]

My hon. Friend is, as ever, a doughty advocate for the interests of his constituents. The point I would make to him is that this is a regional centre for the whole of the Yorkshire and Humber area. To retain as many members of staff as possible and reduce redundancy costs, HMRC’s assessment is that Leeds is a better location for those working in York, Sheffield and Hull from where there is a direct train service to Leeds.

[John Pugh (Southport) (LD)]

rose—

Tourism Industry and VAT

Debate between David Gauke and John Pugh

Tuesday 17th March 2015 Westminster Hall

[Mr Gauke]

As I say, a comparison of the Republic of Ireland with the UK as a whole suggests that there is not a big difference. Indeed, I understand that there has been a pretty positive increase in the number of tourists to Northern Ireland specifically in recent years.

All hon. Members will be aware that this Government’s priority is to tackle our budget deficit decisively but fairly and to restore confidence in our economy. The Government have concluded that a VAT cut would not produce sufficient economic growth to outweigh the revenue shortfall. I have not seen any new conclusive evidence that has led me to revisit that conclusion. So at present the Government have no plans to introduce a VAT cut for this sector.

I reassure hon. Members that the Government recognise the importance of the tourism industry and we remain committed to a wide range of other measures to support the sector. For example, to date we have invested more than £129 million through VisitBritain and VisitEngland, to market great British holiday destinations at home and abroad. This has already leveraged significant private sector investment of more than £84 million. We have announced a £10 million tourism in the north fund in the next financial year. We have announced £2 million in the next financial year, to help promote our cities and regions overseas as part of the GREAT campaign, through VisitEngland.

The tourist industry has benefited from other policies introduced by this Government. I thank my hon. Friend the Member for Aberconwy (Guto Bebb) for making this point. For example, capping business rates and doubling business rates relief benefits the retail and hospitality sector by a considerable sum. Those sectors have benefited from the introduction of the employment allowance and will benefit from the abolition of employer's national insurance contributions for under-21s and for apprentices under 25.

[John Pugh]

I hope that this intervention will help. The Minister is saying clearly to the industry and to hon. Members that he has seen no conclusive evidence. If that is not to be a fob-off, should not he sketch out what conclusive evidence would look like to the Treasury? What is the Treasury actually looking for in evidence that would convince it that this case was valid? If he cannot say that, it will simply look like a stalling move.

[Mr Gauke]

A considerable amount of evidence has been produced. The essence of the case is that we would want to see evidence suggesting that the benefits to the economy outweigh the costs. The costs to the Exchequer are, as I have outlined, considerable. The Cut Tourism VAT campaign acknowledges in the numbers that it has produced—I can go into a little bit more detail on issues that we have with its methodology—that there would be an immediate shortfall. Its argument is that, over time, much if not all of that shortfall would be recovered. However, that immediate shortfall has to be dealt with. There is not the opportunity for us to say, “We can borrow extra billions of pounds to fund this, in the hope that that money will be recovered in future years.” If we undertook such a measure, we would need to replace that shortfall with additional taxes or reduced spending, and that in itself would have an impact upon the economy.

The actions we have taken in support of VisitBritain and VisitEngland and the tax reforms that I outlined, are delivering positive results for the UK tourist sector. Provisional figures for 2014 show that the UK welcomed 6% more visitors than in 2013: a total of 34.8 million. In total, UK tourist spend is also up by 3%, which is a total of some £21.73 billion. Provisional figures for tourism in Wales for 2014—the hon. Member for Ceredigion will be interested—show that more people are holidaying in Wales than ever before, with Wales now accounting for over 12% of holidays in Great Britain, leading to an increase on holiday spend in Wales. I am certain that, on top of the increase in numbers, all the successful events that the UK hosts year on year will only serve to make more people aware of the UK’s desirability as a tourist location.

Wherever we can, the Government will of course continue to invest in tourism and provide support for tourism across the UK. Although the hon. Gentleman, and other hon. Members who spoke in this debate, may be disappointed with my answer on VAT, I hope he and other hon. Members will be reassured that we support the sector; that, wherever we can, we will continue to support it; and that we are confident that both inbound and domestic tourism numbers will continue to rise.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between David Gauke and John Pugh

Tuesday 4th November 2014 Commons Chamber

[Mr Gauke]

As we heard earlier, the yield for 2013-14 was £24 billion. HMRC anticipates that that will be broken and that the yield will be higher for this financial year—the details are to come, but that is encouraging. On the tax gap, the small increase is largely due to the VAT tax gap being higher in 2012-13 than the previous year, but we already know that for 2013-14 it will fall.

[John Pugh (Southport) (LD)]

8. What recent steps he has taken to rebalance regional economies.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between David Gauke and John Pugh

Tuesday 6th March 2012 Commons Chamber

[Mr Gauke]

I am afraid that my answer is the same: we cannot keep doing things if we cannot fund them. We will have the Budget in two weeks’ time, but once again we hear proposals for tax cuts or spending increases but nothing to show how the books would be balanced.

[John Pugh (Southport) (LD)]

T7. What success are we having in stamping out VAT fraud, specifically missing trader fraud, which affects us more than it does other EU countries and costs us almost £10 billion?

[Mr Gauke]

This has been a major problem over a number of years. Progress has been made since the mid-2000s, when the problem was at its greatest, but we must of course remain vigilant and I know that HMRC continues to monitor the matter closely.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between David Gauke and John Pugh

Tuesday 22nd March 2011 Commons Chamber

[John Pugh (Southport) (LD)]

T3. Can the Chancellor tell me when the Treasury’s detailed investigation of the feasibility of incorporating a general anti-avoidance rule in British tax law will conclude?

[The Exchequer Secretary to the Treasury (Mr David Gauke)]

My hon. Friend is right to highlight the matter. We have asked Graham Aaronson QC to undertake a study on the matter and he will report in the autumn.

Tax Avoidance

Debate between David Gauke and John Pugh

Wednesday 16th June 2010 Westminster Hall

[Mr Gauke]

I am very grateful to my hon. Friend for that intervention. At this point, given that we will have a Budget next week, I will say that there are a number of issues here. The Government are not hostile to exploring these areas. The coalition agreement is very clear in saying that we want to look at the Liberal Democrat proposals, which included a general anti-avoidance rule. However, my hon. Friend is right to raise some of the complexities and difficulties that may exist and that may need to be overcome. That is a debate that I think the Government, across the board, welcome and want to take forward.

[Dr Pugh]

Again, we have a situation where a proposal is put forward and, as it were, speculative possibilities that could result from that proposal are alluded to. Presumably in any process of investigation, however, one looks at how things actually pan out in the real world in other places. Clearly, if it was the case that, in every regime where a proposal such as this one was introduced, there was this massive clearance backlog, rather like the Independent Parliamentary Standards Authority—heaven forbid—one would never implement such a scheme. In fact, there is no obvious reason why a scheme such as the one that IPSA has should be as complex and as poorly managed as it actually is.

[Mr Gauke]

Again, my hon. Friend makes a fair point. He manages to bring IPSA into the debate—

[Dr Pugh]

Sorry. [Laughter.]

[Mr Gauke]

That tends to be the way of things now, I understand. There is a need for a sensible debate in this area, and today we have heard two excellent contributions, from my hon. Friends the Members for Southport and for Amber Valley, and I for one am very grateful for those contributions.

The hon. Lady raised a number of points and I hope that, in the course of my remarks, I am able to address those points. As far as building on the previous work undertaken by the previous Government and by HMRC, the underlying point that I want to make is that this Government take tax avoidance very seriously. We want to use HMRC’s resources as effectively and as efficiently as possible to ensure that we address this particular matter and so that those who do the right thing and who pay the taxes that are due do not find themselves essentially subsidising those who have not paid their taxes properly. Again, further details will be announced in the Budget.

The hon. Lady raised the specific point about whether one should have a target for the number of prosecutions in this area, and so on. That is perhaps more symptomatic of how the previous Government tended to work, which was on the basis of having targets. However, in the number of meetings that I have had with HMRC officials in the five weeks or so that I have been in my post, I have said that we take tax avoidance seriously. We want to work with HMRC in developing proposals on how we tackle tax avoidance and on how we deploy resources most effectively.

That will continue to be the Government’s position, including on tackling matters such as the hidden economy, which the hon. Lady rightly raised as an important area, and on working on the international stage and engaging with other countries in finding ways to exchange information more effectively. The hon. Lady highlighted the Liechtenstein agreement and that is one agreement that we welcomed in opposition and that we continue to support. I am not in a position to say anything more about particular matters today, for reasons that I am sure she will understand, but we continue to encourage HMRC to engage with other tax authorities to ensure that those people who should be paying tax in this country do pay tax in this country.

The hon. Lady raised the issue of greater disclosure. We support that. She referred to the disclosure of tax avoidance schemes. We think that that was a very successful initiative by HMRC and we wish to continue with that initiative and build on it. We will continue to encourage HMRC to engage with other tax authorities on double taxation treaties and tax information exchange agreements. I have shadowed Ministers in Committees on many statutory instruments on this particular matter and frequently asked how much these agreements will actually raise for the Exchequer, so I know that the answer is that it is not possible to provide the answer. Nevertheless, these agreements apply for Belize as much as for any other jurisdiction and we will continue to encourage HMRC to pursue those agreements and to look to progress as many of them as possible as quickly as possible.

[Mr Gauke]

I would say that there is something there for us to build on, and I think that that probably answers that question as effectively as I can.

The hon. Lady highlighted the issue of country-by-country reporting. Our view is that we certainly want to do everything we can to help developing countries to improve their ability to collect tax. The OECD informal taskforce on tax and development is currently exploring with non-governmental organisations and with industry whether country-by-country reporting would be effective in improving tax transparency. We shall certainly consider this matter very carefully to see what is the most effective way of doing things.

There is also something that the previous Government achieved, which the hon. Lady did not particularly mention but for which I think they deserve some credit, in ensuring that the tax capacity of developing countries can be improved. Again, we are certainly very interested to see what we can do to explore that issue.

Let me turn to one of the key points, which I think was raised by my hon. Friend the Member for Amber Valley, which is the need to do what we can to improve tax law so as to remove uncertainty. That is a very important point. We are committed to reforming the tax system to make it competitive, simpler, greener and fairer, and to ensuring that the quality of tax law is improved. The most effective way to tackle avoidance is, as far as possible, to stop it at source, rather than tackling it once it has happened. Prevention is better than cure.

A simpler tax system that presents fewer boundaries and complexities to be exploited is clearly preferable. As a Government, we are committed to making sure that, when we consider reforms to tax policy, we take into account from the start the impact on avoidance opportunities. We want a tax system that is noted for fairness and simplicity, and addressing tax avoidance risks is a key part of that.

Nevertheless, it is widely acknowledged, including by the Institute for Fiscal Studies, that tax avoidance requires a multifaceted response. There will always be taxpayers who attempt to achieve tax savings that were not intended by Parliament. We intend to be a reforming Government that put in place a better tax framework for business. As we do that, we will take the opportunity to construct a tax framework that reduces the risk of tax avoidance.

Of course, those are the longer-term objectives. In the short term, we will need to introduce specific targeted measures when an avoidance risk is identified. We will take that kind of action when it is justified, but our aim over time is, as far as possible, to move away from the need for short-term measures.

HMRC has published an anti-avoidance strategy that recognises that a range of responses is required. The strategy has three key elements: first, prevention; secondly, detection, and finally counteraction. Prevention focuses on developing robust law. HMRC clearly has a key role in recommending to Ministers changes to strengthen the legislative framework to defeat attempts at tax avoidance.

Another tool in preventing avoidance is deterrence. HMRC publicises details of avoidance schemes that it considers ineffective, to put taxpayers on notice that it will challenge their use of those schemes. For large businesses and the wealthiest individuals, HMRC uses real-time dialogue to obtain early information about transactions under consideration and influence behaviour. To be fair, progress has been made in recent years, and we welcome that. The regime for the disclosure of tax avoidance schemes, in particular, has proved invaluable to obtaining real-time intelligence on avoidance activity, as I acknowledged earlier.

Where HMRC detects avoidance, counteraction involves thorough and expert investigation and, where necessary, litigation. We believe that that range of responses strikes the right balance between providing certainty to taxpayers in their tax affairs and protecting the Exchequer against unacceptable threats to tax revenues. It also maintains flexibility so that the Government can respond quickly and in a targeted way where necessary. We also want to consider longer-term solutions to the problems of tax avoidance, and I hope that I will have all parties’ support as we do so.

[Dr Pugh]

The Minister has mapped out a strategy that we can all understand and appreciate. However, it would be helpful to know whether he has assessed the personnel requirements to fulfil that strategy. Are the staff currently in place in the Treasury, or will he need to acquire more? I ask because we are, obviously, in a time of head count reduction, and we do not want to remove the heads that are most useful in collecting tax revenues.

[Mr Gauke]

I am grateful for that intervention. My hon. Friend raises a perfectly fair point. Because of the crisis in the public finances, all parts of Government face great pressure to find savings. As we prepare for the spending review in the autumn, I have said to HMRC that I want it to focus resources on reducing the tax gap and achieving yield. I hope that during the months ahead, we can develop a strategy to ensure that HMRC has the resources that it needs in the right places to do so. Guaranteeing a certain yield or making estimates about a particular area of expenditure or the expansion of staff in a certain Department is not easy.

The hon. Lady acknowledged that there will always be a tax gap. To respond to her remarks, one can go only so far in making firm predictions about the tax gap reduction, as we must be sufficiently confident that any predictions will withstand the scrutiny of the Office for Budget Responsibility. However, that is not to say that I as a Minister am not keen to see what we can do to reduce the tax gap.

My hon. Friend mentioned the £120 billion estimate, although he did not necessarily say that he thought it was right. It is mentioned frequently among hon. Members and in the media. That figure was produced by the Tax Justice Network, or Tax Research LLP, which is essentially the same organisation. It is a striking figure, and is often repeated. It is very different from the £40 billion estimated by HMRC. The £120 billion figure has clearly focused attention on the matter, and that is no bad thing, but scepticism about it is widespread; indeed, I expressed some scepticism myself from the Opposition Benches a year or so ago. Given the disparity between the £120 billion and HMRC’s numbers, I have asked officials to review it.

It must be accepted that in preparing estimates, organisations external to Government have access to much less data than HMRC. The types of methodology available to them are therefore restricted. It is reasonable to assume that HMRC is clearly in a better position to make an assessment, but there is no reason why outside bodies should not contribute to the debate. However, having considered the methodology used to produce the figure of £120 billion, I must tell the House that even a brief analysis reveals that it is deeply and systematically flawed.

For example, Tax Research LLP estimates total revenue lost due to tax evasion at £70 billion. That figure is obtained by applying the percentage tax gap from VAT to direct taxes. There are two main problems with that. First, different tax regimes have different tax gaps. According to independent research by the OECD, for example, the operational experience shows that tax regimes such as pay-as-you-earn that withhold tax at source have far smaller tax gaps than other types. To apply the VAT gap percentage to taxes collected by PAYE or otherwise at source greatly overstates the tax gap, because the VAT tax gap is considerably higher.

Secondly, an element of double counting is involved, although, to be fair, that might not be apparent from the numbers used by Tax Research. The VAT gap already includes amounts due to tax avoidance and tax debt. Applying that percentage to direct taxes and then adding additional amounts for both avoidance and tax debt, as does Tax Research, results in the double counting of losses from the avoidance of direct taxes and non-payment.

The Tax Research estimate of tax debt is £28 billion. That is a snapshot figure of all tax owed to HMRC on 31 March 2009, which does not represent the actual losses to the Exchequer from non-payment. Almost all tax owed to HMRC is eventually paid, sometimes within days of becoming due. A proportion of debts outstanding are in staged repayment plans, such as those covered by the business payment support service. Only the tax debt written off as uncollectable by HMRC is an actual loss to the Exchequer from debt. That is therefore the amount that HMRC uses in its estimate of the tax gap, which in the 2007-08 tax gap figures was not £28 billion but £3 billion. Of course, we must take steps to reduce that figure further, and I am keen to encourage measures to do so, but we should get the number right.

The final and most significant point concerns tax loss due to tax avoidance, which Tax Research estimates at £25 billion. That estimate includes the use of legitimate reliefs promoted by the Government to encourage certain activities, such as capital allowances to encourage investment and research and development tax credits to encourage innovation. Tax avoidance is generally regarded as the use of legal structures and allowances to reduce tax bills in manners not intended by Parliament when enacting the legislation. It is simply nonsense to categorise as tax avoidance the use of allowances for purposes intended by Parliament.

If I have been unfair in setting out those points, I am sure that Tax Research will correct me, but that appears to be the methodology used. Furthermore, the Tax Research estimate does not provide HMRC with any credit for the significant amount of tax that it recovers by challenging avoidance schemes. The figure of £25 billion therefore seems somewhat wide of the mark.

I thank my hon. Friend for this debate. This Government take tax avoidance seriously. We must take every possible step to minimise tax avoidance. We cannot afford to let it undermine our efforts to reduce the deficit, and it is not fair that by deliberately creating schemes that avoid tax, some people pay less while the vast majority of the hard-working public pay their fair share. Action against tax avoidance will be a priority, alongside improving the tax law-making process, introducing robust legislation and targeting HMRC counteraction and investigation.