Police

David Winnick Excerpts

Wednesday 8th February 2012 Commons Chamber

[Yvette Cooper]

HMIC’s assessment was that 4,100 of the 4,600 officers who went in the first year were from front-line jobs, according to the definition of front line that HMIC agreed with the Home Office. The hon. Gentleman also raises an important issue about people nearing retirement, and he will know that in practice chief constables in many parts of the country have been forced to push officers into early retirement when they did not want to go. A Staffordshire officer whom I am meeting tomorrow has said, “I would not have finished. I am not bitter, but very disappointed. The feeling is that there is no control over the mass exodus of experience—it is just going.” That is the reality of what is happening in forces across the country.

[Mr David Winnick (Walsall North) (Lab)]

A number of very experienced officers in the West Midlands force have been told that they must leave, having completed their 30 years. Is it not important to bear in mind, however, what happened in August? Time and again during the terrible days of the riots, people were complaining that even with police numbers as they are there were not enough police around. They were pleading with the police to come in. If these cuts take place, if—unfortunately and tragically—we had riots once again, the situation will, as we know, be even worse.

[Yvette Cooper]

My hon. Friend makes an important point. We saw in the capital and major cities across the country that we needed police officers on the streets to take back the streets, calm the riots and prevent the damage that was being done, and it took 16,000 officers on the streets of London to calm the tensions and deal with the violence and the looting. Sixteen thousand officers is the number that this Government are cutting—the equivalent of every one of those police officers that it took to calm the streets of London on those awful August nights.

Detainee Inquiry

David Winnick Excerpts

Wednesday 18th January 2012 Commons Chamber

[Mr Clarke]

My hon. Friend speaks with much greater authority than I on the subject and puts forward an opinion with which I wholeheartedly agree. That is why it is in the interests of the vast majority of those brave men and women who serve in those services, often in very dangerous situations, that we tackle these allegations of malpractice. I am sure the allegations are against a tiny number of officers and it may be that they will turn out to be unfounded. The sooner we can clear this up and draw a line under it, the better.

[Mr David Winnick (Walsall North) (Lab)]

Will the Justice Secretary accept that the allegation that British security officials handed over suspects to places abroad where they were tortured is a matter of great concern for Britain’s reputation? I said “allegation”, but in the case last week of the two Libyans, the letter which was found from the MI6 officer confirms that that was not merely an allegation. The two were sent over to Libya and were tortured. As we know, one of them, who holds a high position now in post-Gaddafi Libya, is accordingly bringing legal action against the UK Government.

[Mr Clarke]

Those are the serious allegations which need to be investigated and are being investigated by the police. On the principle of the matter, which the hon. Gentleman underlines, this Government are absolutely clear that we do not engage in torture, we do not condone torture, we do not get engaged in torture in any way, and we are not remotely going to get involved in the cruel and inhuman treatment of detainees in any way. The sooner we investigate the serious allegations that have emerged from Tripoli, the better.

Policing

David Winnick Excerpts

Thursday 12th January 2012 Westminster Hall

[Keith Vaz]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for, and agree with, his intervention. It is important that we put on record the achievements of the NPIA in certain areas. The fact that organisations are being abolished does not mean that we do not recognise the work done. I will come on to some of those organisations later.

The fact that the location of all the NPIA functions has not been announced remains a concern. I hope that, during his winding-up speech, the Minister will finally give us the list of all the outstanding functions and tell us where they will go. Many of the NPIA functions bound for the NCA will have to move to the Serious Organised Crime Agency, which itself is due to be abolished and co-opted into the NCA by December 2013. This shifting of resources between agencies due for closure, before finally shifting them to the NCA, makes heavy weather of the Government’s important principle of uncluttering the landscape.

SOCA was set up by the previous Government, of which the shadow Minister, my right hon. Friend the Member for Delyn (Mr Hanson), was an active member—one of his roles was that of Policing Minister—and our Committee has been concerned about it for a number of years. In our most recent report on the agency in 2009, we found that its budget of £476 million was used to hire 3,800 members of staff; that it was spending £15 of public money for every pound it seized from criminal gangs; and that it lacked transparency in the way that it operated. Despite improvement in its performance, it is essential that the Government’s new crime-fighting agency be set the correct targets and can use its resources cost-effectively, so that it does not become another SOCA. It is also not clear whether SOCA will be given extra resources to help it manage the NPIA functions during the short-lived transition. I hope that the Minister will offer clarification on that point.

The lack of detail regarding the creation of the NCA was one of the central concerns of the Committee, and that remains the case. We were concerned about the delay in appointing a head of the agency, and the lack of detail on the objectives and—most importantly—the budget of this new policing agency. We welcome the appointment of Keith Bristow as the head of the NCA since the publication of our report. We felt, however, that someone occupying a position of that importance ought to have appeared before the Committee before taking up his formal appointment. We also remain concerned about the lack of detail on his role and objectives. Will he be a civil servant, or the head of the No. 1 crime-busting agency in the country? Will he be Sir Humphrey or Eliot Ness? Perhaps we will find out when he appears before the Committee on Tuesday to answer some important questions.

The Committee still awaits the figures on the agency’s budget. When the Minister first appeared before the Committee on 28 June, I asked his director of finance whether he knew the budget. He replied that it would be a little higher than SOCA’s, which is £476 million. Luckily, he had the Minister next to him, who told the Committee that although the budget for the NCA had not yet been set, the lion’s share of it would come from SOCA. The Minister came before us again on 20 December 2011, following the announcement that the destination of some of the NPIA functions would be the NCA, and he could still not inform us of the budget. This is not a game of “Play Your Cards Right”—a little higher here, a little lower there. We want the figures. Parliament needs to know exactly what the budget of this new agency will be, particularly as it is the flagship of the Government’s new policy.

There remain many areas where the agenda for the future of policing is unclear. One such area is police IT. Despite costing the public £1.2 billion annually, we concluded that

“IT across the police service as a whole is not fit for purpose,”

and that that affected the

“police’s ability to fulfil their basic mission of preventing crime and disorder.”

The Home Office has made rectifying that, through changes to police IT, a top priority.

It was an error of judgment on the part of the Home Office to prevent Lord Wasserman from giving oral evidence to our inquiry. As the author of the police IT review that preceded the Home Secretary’s announcement of the creation of a police-led information and communications technology company, and as chairman of the board setting up that new IT company, he is central to any future plans. He hosts seminars on behalf of Ministers, he speaks on behalf of Ministers, and he advises Ministers. I have received many invitations to seminars that the Minister for Policing was unable to attend, and Lord Wasserman is sent in his place. It appears that Lord Wasserman is, in fact, acting as a Minister, so it is very odd that he has refused to appear before the Committee. I hope that the Minister will have some good news for the Committee, in terms of agreeing to allow him to attend. The Committee unanimously wrote to the Home Secretary again on 20 October 2011 asking Lord Wasserman to come before us and give us answers on the development of the new company. That request was turned down.

One of the areas that the Committee has been focusing on with regard to policing has been the policing protocol.

[Mr David Winnick (Walsall North) (Lab)]

I know that my right hon. Friend is going through a lengthy period of not being controversial—somewhat like me—but is he coming to the point when we deal with morale in the police force?

[Keith Vaz]

I have a feeling that my hon. Friend has seen a copy of my speech—although I am not suggesting that he popped into my office, which is next door to his—because I will indeed come on to police morale.

[Mr Winnick]

I can assure my right hon. Friend that I have not seen a copy of his speech.

[Keith Vaz]

One thing is certain: my hon. Friend did not write it for me. We will be coming on to police morale in a moment.

I pay tribute to the excellent work done by the hon. Member for Rochester and Strood in pursuing the issue of the protocol. In the past, the Minister has been willing to engage with the Committee on a number of issues. I find him a very accessible Minister. He may well be top of the league table, as far as my dealings with Home Office Ministers are concerned.

--- Later in debate ---

[Keith Vaz]

The debate is taking place in no small measure because of all the work that the hon. Gentleman has done.

I turn to the issue of police morale, which was raised in an intervention by my hon. Friend the Member for Walsall North (Mr Winnick). For police officers up and down the country, the role and future of the police service have been at the forefront of the national agenda since July 2010. The service will suffer more than 16,000 job losses before the next election, and uncertainty remains over how pay and conditions will be affected by the Winsor review and the ruling this week by the Police Arbitration Tribunal. In addition, there is the two-year public sector pay freeze and the capped 1% increase beyond those two years. We have heard from the Police Federation that the proposals for changes to police pay and conditions will have a detrimental effect on the morale of the police service.

In a Police Federation survey of 43,000 police officers last year, 98% said that they were demoralised by how these matters were progressing. When the issue of police pay has been settled, and when that is coupled with all the other challenges that they face, there could be a fundamental shift in the standards and motivation of police officers all over the country. We would be grateful to hear from the Minister about the progress on that subject, and about any other discussions that he has had with the Police Federation.

I have to say to the Minister—again, this is uncharacteristic of him—that I was very disappointed with the reply that he gave to my parliamentary question when I asked how many times he had met the Police Federation. He gave me no reply. He said that he could not tell me how many times because that is what the previous Government did. That is very odd. I thought that this Government were committed to transparency. When the Chairman of a Select Committee tables a parliamentary question to the Minister of Policing asking when he met officially—not socially or informally—the chairman of the Police Federation, he deserves a reply. I shall take that up with Mr Speaker.

[Mr Winnick]

I am sure that my right hon. Friend recalls that when I—and indeed he—pressed the chief constable of the west midlands on the effect of cuts in that region, he said that it was bound to have an effect. Over the period concerned, cuts in the west midlands will be somewhere in the region of 26%. That is not disputed. It will mean 1,100 fewer police officers and around 1,100 fewer police support officers. That is bound to have an adverse effect on dealing with criminality.

[Keith Vaz]

My hon. Friend is a distinguished Member from the west midlands, and I accept what he says. That is exactly what the chief constable of the west midlands said to us when we met him about these matters, so they have to be taken very seriously. On the question of the reply, I will take that up with Mr Speaker, because it is a reasonable question for hon. Members to ask. If we accept that we will never get an answer to questions about who Ministers meet officially, then, frankly, there is no point in coming here and no point in tabling questions.

Despite those difficulties, we need to accept that officers in police forces all over the country work extremely hard and are very dedicated. The riots across the UK highlighted the length to which officers will go to protect their communities and to have a positive impact on local areas. Yesterday, along with the Minister, other Ministers and hon. Members, I attended a reception at Downing street organised by the Prime Minister to thank police officers who had taken part in trying to quell the riots. The Prime Minister spoke eloquently about the bravery of those officers. It is right that we realise and recognise that, during these difficult times when budgets have to be cut to some extent, police officers face enormous problems.

In the week after the Stephen Lawrence verdicts, when there has been some criticism of how the police operated during the original investigation, may I give the Minister an example of really good practice? On Boxing day, a young student was shot in the head in Manchester when he was out attending the sales. He was an overseas student. I was involved in this matter, because an e-mail came from India from his family in Gujarat, and they asked me to ensure that things were in order. I am full of praise for the work that was done by Greater Manchester police. I would like the Minister to look at the letter that I have sent to the Home Secretary today. Within seven days, Assistant Chief Constable Dawn Copley and her team in Greater Manchester arrested someone and charged them with the murder. They sent two police officers to India to inform the family of what was happening. When the family came over here, they looked after them and communicated with them on an hourly basis to tell them what was happening. We now have a date for the hearing of the person who is alleged to have murdered Anuj Bidve. That is an example of good practice, which we should acknowledge when we look at what happened in the Lawrence affair; we can see how far forward we have moved in the past few years.

The Government’s changes are the most far-reaching proposals for the police service since the 1960s, and are among the most significant since Sir Robert Peel laid the foundations for modern policing nearly 200 years ago. Ministers must be commended for thinking outside the box in their desire to improve policing in Britain in a radical way. However, the structures must follow their vision for policing in the 21st century. All the Committee is seeking to do in its report is caution the Government to think carefully before putting their structures in place, so that they are fit for purpose and achieve their laudable aim of reducing crime as much as possible, and provide intervention from the centre to guide long-term policing. It is for that reason that we suggest, in the very last words of our report, that change on this massive scale requires clear and strong leadership from the Home Office, and effective communication with the stakeholders involved in this very important process.

Police Stations (Overnight Staffing)

David Winnick Excerpts

Tuesday 6th December 2011 Westminster Hall

[Mr David Winnick (Walsall North) (Lab)]

I welcome the fact that my hon. Friend the Member for Dudley North (Ian Austin) has secured this debate because Bloxwich police station in my constituency is affected by this issue. My hon. Friend is right.

[Mrs Linda Riordan (in the Chair)]

Order. May I check that the hon. Gentleman has the permission of the Minister and Opposition spokesperson to speak?

[Mrs Linda Riordan (in the Chair)]

Please keep your contribution short, Mr Winnick.

[Mr Winnick]

I certainly will, Mrs Riordan. As the Minister knows, the West Midlands police force faces a devastating cut of 26% over the next few years. That is bound to affect it adversely both in the west midlands as a whole and in individual constituencies. As indicated, there will be 1,250 fewer police officers as numbers fall from 8,627 to 7,377. Moreover, there will be fewer members of police staff in other roles. That is the background to what is happening and the reason why certain cuts are taking place at the moment.

The decision to close Bloxwich police station after 6 pm each day cannot be justified. My figures show that on average, more than 30 residents visit the station at some stage during the time it will be closed. Furthermore, the fact that the police station is closed will lessen the feeling of security among the residents. There may be alternative ways of contacting the police, but that does not alter the fact that the police station will be closed when previously it remained open, and people are concerned about that.

We started a petition to protest about what was happening, and there was not the slightest reluctance by anyone to sign—I would have been surprised if there had been. I know that the Minister is checking the figure I gave about the number of people who go to the station—that is the average figure that has been publicised; if it is not the most accurate figure, so be it. The fact remains, however, that until now and before the cuts were announced, the police station remained open and its closure was never suggested. The only reason the station will close after 6 pm every day is that indicated by my hon. Friends. I hope that, when looking at the situation in Dudley and Coventry, the issue of Bloxwich station and whether it can remain open will also be considered.

Finally, I sent the petition to the police authority with a supporting letter, and I believe that there should be a genuine consultation exercise in which people are asked their views. If the Minister wishes to challenge what I have said about the need for Bloxwich police station to remain open, let a genuine consultation exercise be held in Bloxwich, and other areas of my constituency that use that station, so that people can express their views.

[The Minister for Policing and Criminal Justice (Nick Herbert)]

I congratulate the hon. Member for Dudley North (Ian Austin) on securing this debate. I recognise that the availability of the police is a matter of concern to his constituents, and the Government share that concern.

Police visibility and availability is important, and we want to see more police officers on the streets preventing and cutting crime, rather than sitting behind their desks. We must, however, recognise that policing today reaches people through many means, not just police stations, and we must be careful not to confuse buildings with the visibility and availability of the police, which I fear may be behind public concern.

I know that the hon. Gentleman recently attended a meeting of the West Midlands police authority at which it considered a report by the chief constable on the proposed operating hours for the force’s public inquiry offices, and he also mentioned the petition that he presented. As I understand it, the views expressed by petitioners will be taken into account as a response to the police consultation. The consultation period will continue until 15 January, after which time all responses will be considered. Such decisions are taken locally and not by the Government.

In his report for the authority meeting, the chief constable made plain the force’s commitment to a visible and accessible service to the public:

“Providing a visible and accessible service to the public is core to the approach West Midlands Police takes in delivering its mission of ‘Serving our communities and protecting them from harm.’ West Midlands Police must deliver reductions in its budget of £126 million, but in making these savings we have been clear that we will still offer the protection the public demands, but the way services are delivered must change.”

The approach described by Chief Constable Sims reflects the core challenge that the police service faces—to reduce costs while maintaining and, indeed, improving public services. The Government have no option but to reduce public spending. As a service spending £14 billion a year, the police can and must make their fair share of the savings needed. I think that there is cross-party agreement that the police can make savings; we may disagree about the amount.

The hon. Member for Dudley North and his hon. Friends raised the issue of the funding for the west midlands. Of course, I will revisit the damping decisions to be made in relation to the third and fourth years of the spending review. I understand the point that the hon. Gentleman is trying to make. I have said before that we decided that an even cut across police forces was the only fair solution, because otherwise we would be penalising forces that were already taking more from local taxpayers than others. These are difficult decisions, but we decided that that was the fairest solution. I repeat that we want to move away from damping to full implementation of the formula as a proper reflection of policing need. It is difficult to do that when funding is falling, because it means that other forces would have to pick up the bill and receive a deeper cut than the level proposed by the Government, and those forces would not regard that as fair. Nevertheless, I will continue to consider these matters and have just reassured the chair of the police authority and the chief constable that I will do so. As I continue to take the decisions about individual allocations, I will pay the closest attention to the points being made.

My absolute priority is to ensure that the police service retains and enhances its ability to protect and serve the public, but for that to happen, business as usual is no longer an option for police forces and authorities. A fundamental redesign of police force organisation is needed. This cannot be about salami-slicing police resources. Her Majesty’s inspectorate of constabulary has shown that a significant proportion of the police work force are not working in front-line roles—that is certainly true in the west midlands—and that there is wide variation among forces when it comes to the availability and visibility of officers to the public whom they serve. That is evidence that forces can do much more to manage their resources better in order to prioritise front-line services. I know that the very good chief constable in the west midlands has embarked on that mission. He is focusing on the redesign of policing that is necessary to deliver a high-quality service to the public, given that resources are diminishing.

The test of the effectiveness of a force cannot be the total amount being spent on it or the total number of staff it employs—or how many police stations it has or when front counters are open. There is no simple and automatic link between those things and how accessible the police are or how crime is being fought. The effectiveness of a force depends on how well the resources available are used.

It is plain from the report provided by the chief constable to the police authority last week that West Midlands police have devoted more of their resources to managing contact with the public than similar forces have, but without reaching the productivity levels that could be achieved. The cost of that approach is not only financial; it constrains the ability of the force to return officers to the visible policing that the public want. The changes proposed will enable the force to deliver a £1 million saving on the cost of managing contact with the public. They also involve redeploying officers and staff to make better use of their time and skills, rather than staffing police counters at times when few people use them—I will come to that point. Staff from the sites with reduced hours will be redeployed into contact centres, which will improve call handling, and police officers will be released to other duties, so the proposals about which the police are consulting involve changing the balance of resources to improve the way in which the police respond to the public through the channels by which and at the times at which the public actually contact the police, rather than preserving a service in places where and at a time when the public rarely use it.

West Midlands police have found that, during the daytime, on average only two people an hour visit each front counter. Many of those visitors are solicitors visiting the custody facilities or are people whom the police have asked to attend, such as in relation to bail or production of documents. The proposed new opening hours for a number of station front counters will meet two thirds of existing demand, which is concentrated in daytime hours.

I note that the hon. Member for Dudley North has said that one third of front-desk inquiries come between 6 pm and 10 pm. It is worth him looking at the graph produced by the police that shows the actual demand at Dudley police station. I have just been looking at it. He may be right that one third of the inquiries come between those times, but let us look at the actual number of people making visits—those who choose to come in, not those who have been asked to come in by the police, because clearly they could be asked to come in at a different time. I think that the hon. Gentleman knows what the numbers are. At 6 o’clock, the average number was 0.3—0.3 people came in. It was 0.4 at 7 o’clock, 0.4 at 8 pm and 0.2 at 9 pm. At 10 pm, it was zero. During daytime hours, when the counter will remain open, the peak number of visits to Dudley police station came at 2 pm. I wonder whether the hon. Gentleman knows how many people came in at that peak time. One person came in. We need to understand the scale of the numbers of visits, what hon. Members are asking for and the impression that may be being given to local people of what the changes to the service mean.

The hon. Member for Walsall North (Mr Winnick) referred to Bloxwich police station. He is right: there is a little more demand on Bloxwich police station out of hours. I do not know whether his figure of an average of 30 is right. It does not look correct on the figures that I have, but I am happy to take what he says at face value. I can tell him that the peak number of visits in the daytime occurred at 4 pm and that two people came in. At 10 pm, the start of the out-of-hours service that he was concerned about, it was one person. Therefore we need to get all of this in context.

I have consistently said—this view is shared by chief constables—that we must find a new range of strategies for the police contacting the public. There are very good examples up and down the country of forces doing far more with their money—getting more bang for the buck—by finding new ways of contacting the public. Whether that is through the new opportunities that various media present, whether it is through contact centres on our new non-emergency number, 101, where people can get hold of the police, whether it is through the internet or whether it is the contact that the police can have through things such as supermarket surgeries, where they can meet thousands of people, rather than the very few who may come in to a police station, it is incredibly important that we realise that there are many more innovative ways by which contact can be maintained.

[Mr Winnick]

rose—

[Nick Herbert]

If the hon. Gentleman will forgive me, I must make one or two final points in response to the hon. Member for Dudley North. I hope that he understands.

[Mr Winnick]

indicated assent.

[Nick Herbert]

I agree with the hon. Member for Dudley North about the importance of driving savings where we can to ensure that front-line activity is protected. That should be our shared ambition. I am committed to it, and so, I know, is Chris Sims. All the things that the hon. Gentleman mentioned are exactly the areas where we are doing that. We are driving hard on procurement. On police vehicle procurement, which he mentioned, the Police Act 1996 (Equipment) Regulations 2011 came into force in March. That means that all forces must now buy vehicles through a national procurement framework. We have identified some £380 million-worth of savings that could be achieved by police forces through better use of IT and procurement. That is a very good example of what the hon. Gentleman was talking about. The point about interoperability was also right. He mentioned interoperability between the blue-light services. We are encouraging forces to collaborate and share services. He will know about the innovative proposals that West Midlands police have in relation to business partnering. We are encouraging the 43 forces to share services and reduce back-office costs. I strongly agree with the hon. Gentleman about all that, and chief constables are working on it.

The hon. Gentleman raised the issue of police and crime commissioners. I am pleased that he said that he was not against them in principle. I know that Labour is now calling for candidates, and I have no doubt that we will be putting up a candidate in the west midlands. I do not know whether the hon. Gentleman plans to run. The truth is that there will be no greater running cost with the police and crime commissioner than there was with the authority. We are absolutely determined about that. There is no reason why the police and crime commissioner should cost more. I believe that it will be a full-time position, because it will involve the important job of holding the force to account, which the authority currently does. It will be vested in one person, rather than the whole authority, so I think that it will be a full-time job in a big force area. We have just decided that it will involve responsibility for victim services as well.

The police and crime commissioner will do the very important job of holding the force to account and being the voice of the people. They will provide a voice for exactly this kind of exercise and pay attention to public concern, but if I were the police and crime commissioner for the west midlands, I would be looking very hard at the proposals that the chief constable has made. I would be looking at the numbers and saying, “Actually, they make sense, given that we need to make savings and improve the visibility and availability of officers by innovative means.” When we look at the actual number of visits that hon. Members have talked about, does it really make sense to be saying that making the changes is scandalous and wrong and that the service will not be the one that the public need? I suggest that, if people re-read the report, they will see that the proposal is not an unreasonable one for the chief constable to make. I understand why hon. Members raise these issues. I believe that our objectives are the same, but I also believe that in this case they should be supporting the chief constable in his endeavours.

Police Reform and Social Responsibility Bill

David Winnick Excerpts

Wednesday 30th March 2011 Commons Chamber

[Vernon Coaker]

No doubt members of ACPO, including Sir Hugh Orde, its hugely respected president, will have considered the discussions on the Bill and will have continued to discuss it with colleagues in deciding on the most appropriate advice and guidance to give the Government. ACPO has regularly said that it is for the Government to determine the governance structure, but it will do its best, whatever structure is finally decided, to implement it and deliver the policing that we would all wish to see. However, it also has a responsibility to point out to the Government where there are problems, and it has done so in guidance. There is a serious need for clarity from the Government regarding the memorandum of understanding, code of practice or protocol.

It is not acceptable for this issue not to be subject to a legislative process, and I should be interested to learn whether the Minister agrees. He has agreed that there should be a protocol, and a draft is in the throes of production—no doubt, a group is working on it and discussions are under way. I suspect that there are disagreements, which is why it has not been issued yet—it is proving more problematic than the Minister expected.

We need a protocol, because we need to clarify the role of the police and crime commissioner vis-à-vis the chief constable. In Committee, we debated at length what their respective roles should be. The police and crime commissioner is elected on a local mandate and will make certain promises, but what is their mandate vis-à-vis the chief constable? Where is the line drawn between what the commissioner would wish to do and the chief constable’s operational responsibilities?

It is interesting that an amendment has been tabled by some of the Minister’s colleagues, who are as concerned as I am. Indeed, the Chair of the Home Affairs Committee, my right hon. Friend the Member for Leicester East (Keith Vaz), has added his name to amendment 149. The hon. Member for Rochester and Strood (Mark Reckless) is the lead Member for the amendment, and he is clearly concerned. The amendment has a great deal of merit, and it tries to deal with the issue. The hon. Gentleman is trying to clarify whether a police and crime commissioner has the opportunity to tell a chief constable to investigate a crime. Is it any crime, or no crime? Is that just a matter for the chief constable? Does the commissioner have any power over that?

What about the funding of units? Can the commissioner tell the chief constable what units they should have? On the apportioning of resources, the Minister looked very upset when I quoted the report by Her Majesty’s inspectorate of constabulary, which showed that only 5% of police and community support officers were not in the back office. What about the commissioner’s ability to say what the correct mix of staff is? They might not want to see as many people doing a particular job, and may want to civilianise. The Minister’s favourite thing at the moment is looking at outsourcing. What if a commissioner does not believe in that? Whose responsibility would it be?

What about the reorganisation of policing? Who has a say on that? What equipment can or cannot be used? It may be an operational decision to use horses or dogs in a public order situation, but does the commissioner have any jurisdiction or say in whether the police have a police or horse section? Is that an operational responsibility? If we had a draft protocol, we could begin to understand the differences in those areas.

We have just seen the police do a very good job overall at the weekend, and I praised the Metropolitan Police Commissioner for it. However, when I recently saw him we discussed containment. What right does a police and crime commissioner or someone else have to tell a chief constable that they had dealt with such a situation wrongly? Does the police and crime commissioner have the right to do more than express an opinion? Police and crime commissioners are directly elected. We are not talking about a police authority. Police and crime commissioners will not be appointed by the Mayor and unelected, as in London. Who has the responsibility for making such decisions? These are hugely serious issues that worry many people across the country.

The Minister’s response is, “It won’t be a problem. Don’t worry about it. Good sense will prevail. Why should the doomsday scenario presented by the shadow Minister happen?” That is a pretty poor way to legislate when we are dealing with such a serious matter. It is not enough to say, “Don’t worry. It won’t happen. Everybody’s good sense will prevail.” The amendments before us are important. Clearly, I am not the only one who is worried.

[Mr David Winnick (Walsall North) (Lab)]

Has my hon. Friend noticed the lack of enthusiasm for the concept of police and crime commissioners? A good test in the House of Commons, as he knows full well, is whether, on a free vote—which obviously is not going to occur—the Government’s project would command a majority.

[Vernon Coaker]

No, on a free vote, I do not think the measure would go through. I agree with my hon. Friend. It will be even more interesting to see whether, on a free vote, the new clause, which seeks to give a legislative base to the protocol between police and crime commissioners and chief constables, would be supported by a majority. I suspect it would.

Oral Answers to Questions

David Winnick Excerpts

Tuesday 11th January 2011 Commons Chamber

[Mr Blunt]

I am grateful to my right hon. Friend for that suggestion, and we will examine the issue.

[Mr David Winnick (Walsall North) (Lab)]

In view of the case involving six defendants that was dropped yesterday, is the Secretary of State aware that there is a lot of disquiet about the crossing of the line from a police constable going undercover for seven years and his inciting illegal action? Would it not be appropriate for a senior Minister, be it him or the Home Secretary, to make a statement to the House? As I have said, there is a good deal of concern and disquiet about what has occurred.

[The Minister for Policing and Criminal Justice (Nick Herbert)]

These are, of course, operational matters for the police. I understand that there is to be an investigation into what appears to have been a lack of proper supervision of the officer concerned, but undercover operations are immensely important across a range of criminal activities, in keeping the public safe.

Police Funding

David Winnick Excerpts

Wednesday 8th December 2010 Commons Chamber

[Mr David Winnick (Walsall North) (Lab)]

I decided to join some of my colleagues in speaking in this debate because of the deep concern in the west midlands about the impact of reductions in police officers and support staff.

I apologise for missing one or two speeches, but I pay tribute to the speech made by my right hon. Friend the Member for Leicester East (Keith Vaz) who, as we all know, chairs the Home Affairs Committee in such a distinguished manner. He made an effective speech, although he will not be surprised to hear that I cannot go along with his taking an “apolitical stance”. I am not aware that I have ever taken an apolitical stance, and it is rather late in the day for me to start! I am not point scoring today, however, although I am happy to do so on many other occasions.

I said in my opening remarks that people are very concerned in the west midlands, and it is for Members and Ministers to decide whether that feeling is genuine. I have had the privilege of representing my constituency of Walsall North for 31 years, and I have always been concerned—as one would expect of every hon. Member—that the police should be able to deal effectively and promptly with my constituents’ complaints about criminality.

The Minister states that there is no, or hardly any, correlation between the number of police officers and tackling criminality, but, like many Members, I simply do not accept that for a moment. There is a correlation. Common sense dictates that if we have fewer police officers, it is far more likely that crime will go undetected.

[Mr Aidan Burley (Cannock Chase) (Con)]

The hon. Gentleman, like me, is a member of the Home Affairs Select Committee. Bill Bratton, who appeared before our Committee on 30 November this year, said:

“As a police chief for many, many years, I would always like to have more police, but the reality is it is not just numbers but, more importantly, what you do with them.”

Does the hon. Gentleman accept that argument from someone who spent 40 years heading up the two biggest police forces in America?

[Mr Winnick]

It is common sense that a senior police officer will take the view that the way in which police officers are deployed is very important. No one disputes that for a moment, but did not Bill Bratton say on the very same occasion that he would have liked to have more police officers? The hon. Gentleman just said that.

Between 1997-98 and 2010-11, central Government funding for west midlands police rose by 36% in real terms. Let me ask those who are critical whether I am justified in raising concerns. No Conservative Member suggested at the time that less should be spent on policing in the west midlands. The money was spent not for the sake of it but to reduce criminality, which it did. We know that under the comprehensive spending review, police forces in England will receive 20% lower funding by 2014-15, and it is not likely that the west midlands will be any different.

I take it from the intervention of the hon. Member for Cannock Chase (Mr Burley) that some Conservative Members—not, I hope, all—do not consider police numbers important. Let me nevertheless cite the numbers for west midlands police, comparing the time Labour first took office with now. In 1996, there were 7,145 police officers. There was then a steady increase, and this year’s figure is 8,536. I do not know whether the hon. Member for Cannock Chase or any other Conservative Member would argue that those increases were unjustified and that there should not have been such a substantial increase.

If necessary, I could provide statistics to show that in the west midlands, as in the rest of Britain, crime has reduced—indeed, the Justice Secretary conceded the point yesterday. I find it difficult to believe, even though the Minister shakes his head in disagreement, that the reduction in crime in my region is not somehow connected with the 36% real-terms increase in police funding and the correlative increase in the number of police officers. There has also been a steady increase in the number of police community support officers since they were first established.

I am not one who always defends the actions of the police. I might well be critical of some aspects of policing the demonstrations today and tomorrow—so be it; we shall see. On one point, I am absolutely certain, and my right hon. Friend the Member for Leicester East also made it abundantly clear: when our constituents phone the police to report criminality they want effective action, not a prerecorded message with no action being taken for days. I do not suggest that all has been well, but spending less on police, with fewer police officers, will make our constituents’ problems much more difficult.

As I said at the beginning of my remarks, in the west midlands, in the black country—not just Birmingham, but my borough, surrounding areas, and the other three black country boroughs—Members have been very pleased, on behalf of our constituents, first and foremost, by the reduction in criminality. Hon. Members may say that we are being too pessimistic, and I obviously hope that a reduction will not to lead to the reversal that many of us fear, but we have a duty and a responsibility to ensure that the progress of the past few years is maintained, that our constituents are protected from criminality as much as possible, and that the police take effective action against criminality when it occurs.

--- Later in debate ---

[Guy Opperman]

The shadow Home Secretary, the right hon. Member for Morley and Outwood (Ed Balls), has said that there is more to do in respect of accountability, and there is more we can do to deepen local and force-based accountability in policing.

[Mr Winnick]

If I understand correctly, the hon. Gentleman was criticising the previous Government for having proposed elected police commissioners and for then abandoning the idea. That is what happened, but that is part of the democratic process. The Home Affairs Committee—which by no means has the final say in such matters—heard representations from the police authorities and senior police officers. We discussed the matter and we came to the conclusion that the Government should not go ahead with the idea. That was not decisive in influencing the Government, but there is nothing wrong with a Government listening, and in my view they made the right decision.

[Guy Opperman]

There were two efforts in respect of this particular proposal, and it is right that certain people have had reservations as time has passed, but let me give one particular example. Sir Hugh Orde was previously a very vocal critic, even predicting that some officers would resign, but following the Queen’s Speech he has changed his position. He now welcomes a commitment to local accountability and says he would work with the Government to protect operational independence. As he put it:

“Policing has always been about serving and answering to local communities. Those are the origins of policing in this country and chief officers”—

and I stress this point—

“welcome the commitment towards local accountability.”

I should also make the point that this proposal has not come from out of the blue. It has been proposed in the past, and it has also been tried in different contexts in America. If we can harness this new proposal and reform the justice system in the way that, without a shadow of a doubt, it requires, we can make a genuine effort to engage in a three-pronged attack to take this matter forward.

Policing (West Midlands)

David Winnick Excerpts

Tuesday 16th November 2010 Westminster Hall

[Mr Jim Cunningham (Coventry South) (Lab)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Brady. You and I have known each other for many years, and at one stage we had offices not far from each other.

There is concern in the west midlands and in its seven districts, but people should realise that that is against a background of economic difficulties that started with Lehman Brothers in America, and that should always be borne in mind when casting aspersions. At present, even with the situation that the Government inherited, we still have our triple A credit rating throughout the international monetary system, which tells us that although there were financial difficulties they were not on the scale that the present Government portray. Some of the measures that the Government have recently taken are unnecessary to deal with a situation that we had planned to deal with over the next four or five years. It is not generally realised that we had about 14 years to pay off our debts. It should also be borne in mind that when Labour came to power in 1997, 50p in every pound was spent on paying off the national debt. That tends to be forgotten; we had a two-year pause. However, the purpose of this debate is very much to discuss the impact in terms of police cuts in the west midlands.

The west midlands is a vital area for the British economy. This Government have taken a series of measures that have affected the region, where one in 10 people is unemployed. We have had cuts in education, and we have only to look around the seven districts to see what has happened as a result of the cuts in education capital programmes and in universities. Against that background, when trying to understand where the Government are taking the country, one is sometimes puzzled.

For the purposes of today’s debate, we should bear in mind that figures released in July this year show current police officer numbers at 143,734, which is nearly 17,000 more than in 1997; the Labour Government also introduced 16,000 police community support officers. Our manifesto guaranteed central funding to maintain those record police numbers. However, in a statement delivered by the present Chancellor, it was announced that central Government police funding will be reduced by 20% in real terms by 2014-15, which will have a direct impact on policing on local streets.

[Mr David Winnick (Walsall North) (Lab)]

It is of interest that Chris Sims, the chief constable of West Midlands police, has stated that, for his force,

“20 per cent equates to over £100m.”

When asked about job losses, he said:

“As more than 80 per cent of our budget goes on staffing costs it is inevitable that we will lose jobs. The funding cuts will be phased over four years, with a disproportionate impact on years one and two.”

Clearly, the west midlands, including my borough of Walsall, will suffer a lot as a result of what the Government have stated.

[Mr Cunningham]

My hon. Friend is spot on, and I shall probably come to that point later.

A July 2010 report by Her Majesty’s inspectorate of constabulary stated:

“A cut beyond 12% would almost certainly reduce police availability”.

There is concern about the future of specialist police units, such as those for domestic crime and child abuse, which are no longer considered front line by the coalition Government. If we look at the regional impact, West Midlands police will be unfairly and disproportionately hit by the 20% cut to its police budget, due to its higher reliance on central funding: 83% of its funding comes from central Government, whereas only 17% is generated from council tax. Those cuts go way beyond what can be achieved through efficiency savings and better procurement. Some predict that West Midlands police could lose more than 1,200 officers and a similar number of police staff over four years. In real terms, it is expected that 400 police officers and 400 police staff will lose their jobs by March. In comparison, leafy Surrey, which has a lower crime rate, will get a better deal.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Cunningham]

Hold on. Calm down.

That is why I deliberately described the situation prior to 1997, to illustrate what can happen when cuts of such magnitude are imposed.

[Mr Winnick]

rose—

[Mr Cunningham]

I will give way to the hon. Gentleman and then to my hon. Friend.

[Mr Cunningham]

I have known a number of chiefs of police in the west midlands over the years and they will all tell the same story. It depends on what Government they are dealing with.

[Mr Winnick]

Would not it help the case for policing in the west midlands if Conservative Members joined us, instead of just echoing Government policy? From time to time when my party’s Government was in office I criticised them when I considered it appropriate, as did other hon. Friends. New Conservative Members may take that lesson on board if they wish.

My constituents complain that there are not sufficient police officers. In certain places in my constituency, which is not unique by any means in terms of antisocial behaviour, residents want to see a physical police presence. The cuts that are coming will make that situation even worse. It is regrettable that West Midlands police will be so adversely affected as a result of Government policy.

[Mr Cunningham]

Not only that, but areas that are used to seeing a high police profile, including some more affluent areas, will now be badly affected by the measures. People in those areas will experience what people in the deprived areas that my hon. Friend is talking about have experienced. We accept that some of the newer Government Members are enthusiastic, but those of us with the benefit of experience know that, once they have seen the policies unfold and seen the impact at the sharp edge, they will really squirm.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Bob Ainsworth (Coventry North East) (Lab)]

I will be as brief as I can because some of the points that I wanted to make have been raised. However, I would like to reiterate one or two of them. As my hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham, Erdington (Jack Dromey) has just pointed out, the way that the cuts are being brought in is disproportionate. I asked the Home Secretary about the underlying reason for that, and I got no answer whatsoever, despite the fact that she claimed that she had prior notice of my question. Why are the high-crime areas being disproportionately hit in comparison with low-crime areas? The Minister knows that to be the case because of the proportion of policing that is paid for by grant. The cuts have been structured in such a way that the high-crime areas—including the west midlands, which has bigger problems although it is not the only such area—are being disproportionally hit by the way that the Government are making the cuts. I thought that we were all in this together. Why are people not being affected in proportion to the size of the problem that they experience?

It is disingenuous to say that there will be no cuts in the front-line service as a result of the measures being taken. There is no perfect organisation, but the West Midlands police service is recognised as one of the more efficient in the country. We are being borne down on all the time in terms of efficiency and pushing harder and further to get more police on the front line. That needs to continue under any regime, but I want to challenge Conservative Members. They will find over time that of all the organisations that they deal with as Members of Parliament, the police—more than any other organisation, in my experience—are under-resourced in terms of clerical support and back-up. When we write a letter to a police officer, we wind up with front-line officers having to respond to us because they do not have the back-office staff to anything like the extent to which some other organisations have them. Therefore, the cuts in back-office staff being planned in the west midlands—my hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham, Erdington referred to a figure of more than 1,000—will drag police officers off the streets and into doing those jobs to an even greater extent than is the case now.

I also want to point out some of the difficulties that will be experienced in implementing the measures. We cannot make police officers redundant. Therefore, we shall probably have to enforce regulation A19 of the Police Pensions Regulations 1987 and discontinue police officers’ service at 30 years, thereby losing disproportionately extremely experienced police officers whom we can ill afford to lose. Does the Minister believe that the West Midlands police service will be able to cope with that without doing what I think the chief constable will have to do, which is freeze recruitment to that police service? I think that that is being planned and that that freeze will continue for the next four years, leaving a gap in policing that will move slowly through the force, giving it problems for a generation, never mind the next couple of years.

I want to make a point off the back of what my hon. Friend the Member for Coventry South (Mr Cunningham) said. This issue does not affect only the west midlands, although the west midlands will really be in difficulty because of the proposed cuts. I do not know whether hon. Members are aware that a month or two ago Warwickshire police authority, fearful of how on earth the Warwickshire police force would cope with the agenda being imposed on it—it is one of the smallest police forces in the country—proposed an amalgamation with the Coventry police service. It did so because it simply did not see how the Warwickshire force would cope. It is not only big forces such as the West Midlands force, serving high-crime areas, that will have huge problems. Smaller police forces, carrying a disproportionate overhead because of their size, will wind up with the problems that have been described.

[Mr Winnick]

I am grateful to my right hon. Friend for giving way. I shall be going to the Select Committee on Home Affairs shortly, Mr Brady, which explains why I cannot stay for the winding-up speeches. Is it not the case that the only people who will get any satisfaction from what is going to happen in the west midlands will be criminals, who will hope, despite all the efforts of the police, that they will not be caught for committing various offences? They are the only people I can imagine who will get any satisfaction from what the Government intend to do.

[Mr Ainsworth]

Yes, I fear that that will be the case. Conservative Members say that there is no direct correlation between police numbers and crime. Yes, of course other issues impact on the police and we have to push the police for efficiencies, as we have to push every area of public service for efficiencies, but something that has a major impact on crime levels is the level of unemployment, and unemployment levels are about to go up considerably. We shall therefore see more people without work and fewer police officers to protect our communities. There is an inevitability about that, and this is where Chris Sims is caught. He wants to reassure the community that he represents. He is a good man, trying to do a job. He does not want to make people fearful, but frankly he does not know how he will cope with the levels of cuts that are being imposed on him and still be able to provide the level of service that he has been able to provide in recent years.

Guantanamo Civil Litigation Settlement

David Winnick Excerpts

Tuesday 16th November 2010 Commons Chamber

[Mr Clarke]

The other side wanted confidentiality as well, I am assured. It is not at all unusual, when mediating an action of this kind, for both sides to agree that they wish to have confidentiality. My hon. Friend is quite right: there is no point in trying to read into this that either side has resiled. Anyone who has been involved in any kind of civil litigation on a less serious matter will know that, often, a party that has been busily protesting its side of the argument can be quite well advised to stop running up costs, to stop wasting management time, to make a reasonable offer and to get out of it. In this case, the considerations were much more important for the public interest. How much longer did we want man-hours in the intelligence services to be absorbed, and how many tens of millions were we prepared to spend on interminable litigation?

[Mr David Winnick (Walsall North) (Lab)]

Leaving aside the cheap political point made by the hon. Member for Keighley (Kris Hopkins) a moment ago, let me tell the Justice Secretary that I find it difficult to understand—as will many people—how compensation could be paid unless there was substantial substance to the allegations made by those who claim that they were transferred illegally and tortured abroad. Surely the clear lesson to be learned is that a state such as ours, based on the rule of law, must ensure that all its officials observe the rule of law, and must not be complicit in any way with agents abroad who carry out torture.

[Mr Clarke]

It is not unusual in many walks of life for a settlement to be reached with neither party making any concessions on their arguments, but both parties agreeing that the settlement constitutes a sensible way of reaching a compromise in the dispute without going further.

I entirely agree with the statement of principle in the second part of the hon. Gentleman’s question. The Government are opposed to torture. Torture is a serious criminal offence. We are opposed to the ill-treatment of detainees and prisoners in any circumstances. We will not condone it, and we will not be complicit in it. Those are the essential values that we must defend, even when we face such dangers as we do now from terrorism in the world.

Oral Answers to Questions

David Winnick Excerpts

Tuesday 19th October 2010 Commons Chamber

[Mr Speaker]

I call Chris Leslie. He is not here, so I call Mr David Winnick.

[Mr David Winnick (Walsall North) (Lab)]

How many of those who were seriously injured in the 7/7 bombings are still waiting for compensation? Presumably the Department has some responsibility in that regard. As for the claims that have been finalised, is the Secretary of State aware that there is a good deal of dissatisfaction among those who have received inadequate sums, in view of the serious injuries inflicted by the mass murderers?

[Mr Kenneth Clarke]

Because of the system that we have inherited, the criminal injuries compensation scheme will have to be re-examined. It simply has not received adequate funds in each year’s budget to keep up with the level of claims. We will have to establish how we can produce a system that works more efficiently, is affordable, and does not depend entirely on huge delays before payments are made because no one has been allocated any money to settle all the outstanding claims.

There is quite a lot behind the hon. Gentleman’s question, but of course everything possible is being done to provide the compensation due to people as quickly as possible. Obviously I cannot comment on the assessment of damages in individual cases, but I note the hon. Gentleman’s remarks about the disappointment that some have felt.