Cultural Property (Armed Conflicts) Bill [HL]

Earl of Courtown Excerpts

Monday 6th June 2016 Lords Chamber

[Lord Lea of Crondall (Lab)]

Before the noble Baroness leaves the point about Yemen raised by the noble Baroness—

[The Earl of Courtown (Con)]

The noble Lord has not been in the Chamber for the whole of this debate.

[Lord Lea of Crondall]

I do not need to be in the Chamber for the whole of the debate in order to ask a question.

--- Later in debate ---

[The Earl of Courtown]

Yes, you do.

[Baroness Neville-Rolfe]

Perhaps I can have a word with the noble Lord after the proceedings in the Chamber have finished and make sure that I have met his concerns.

I know that the impact on the art market is of concern to some in the House. The Government believe that the legislation does not impose any obligations on dealers in cultural property that go beyond the normal due diligence they should undertake for any piece of cultural property they wish to buy or sell in accordance with the industry standards, such as the British Code of Practice for the Control of International Trading in Works of Art. During the implementation of the Bill my department will work closely with all stakeholders with an interest in the Bill, including the art market. I will ensure that the British Antique Dealers’ Association is included in those discussions, and I thank my noble friend Lord Borwick for his suggestion. I know that there have been concerns about the role that the illicit trade in antiquities may play in money laundering in the UK, although noble Lords did not focus on that strongly today. The Government will take decisive action to strengthen the UK’s anti-money laundering regime in the criminal finances Bill.

The noble Lord, Lord Foster of Bath, the noble Earl, Lord Clancarty, and the noble Baroness, Lady Young of Hornsey, all asked about the identification of sites in the UK which would be protected. Our provisional plan is to enshrine the protection of our most valuable cultural sites and property in international law through general protection listing status. This general protection is likely to extend to buildings, historic gardens and parks of grade 1 or category A status, cultural world heritage sites, nationally important collections in museums, galleries and universities, as well as the National Archives and our five legal deposit libraries. We will also consider the submission of our world heritage sites as candidates for enhanced protection. We plan to decide this list by means of a panel of cultural experts and key stakeholders. The interesting points made by the noble Baroness, Lady Young, will inform our implementation and I will consider carefully her idea of a round table. As noble Lords know, I find such meetings extremely useful, as does the Culture Minister my honourable friend Ed Vaizey, a veritable knight of the round tables.

The noble Earl, Lord Clancarty, also asked what cultural property is, so I hope that he finds this explanation helpful. He went on to ask about the impacts and changes felt in Germany following the 1999 measures, as well as the UNESCO climate change report and the UK’s response to it. I will have to write to him once I have had a look at Hansard. I have a personal interest in this as I come from a village close to Stonehenge, and indeed we have often debated the need for the proposed investment in the A303 to protect that extraordinary five-star site.

My noble friend Lord Renfrew asked what we could do to ensure that the destruction of cultural property is viewed as a war crime. The International Criminal Court Act 2001 already makes it an offence to direct attacks at certain buildings and monuments, and under the Geneva Conventions Act 1957 extensive destruction of property and attacks on certain monuments are grave breaches of the convention, which of course is punishable by up to 30 years’ imprisonment.

The noble Lord, Lord Redesdale, suggested the formation of a digital archive. I note that interesting proposal, and I thank my noble friend Lady Berridge for the keen interest that she has taken in police resourcing. The responsibility for decisions on operational matters of course lies with chief constables, but the National Police Chiefs Council has recently established a national network of heritage and cultural property crime liaison officers and is working to raise awareness of cultural property crime right across all police forces. She and other noble Lords asked about police funding, a point which also came up in our useful debate in January. Since then, police funding has been ring-fenced in line with inflation with an increase of £900 million by 2019-20 and the Chancellor has made a generous settlement for important cultural property protection where illegal sales can fund the most appalling regimes and crimes, a point that was extremely well made by the noble Lord, Lord Redesdale. The noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, talked about enforcement in prosecutions. There has recently been a case leading to prosecution. An individual was sentenced to three years and eight months in jail for committing an offence under the 2003 Act, as well as other related offences.

The noble Baroness, Lady Andrews, asked about “breach” instead of “violation”. Breach is used instead of violation because it is a more familiar UK legal term, but I am advised that the meaning is the same. The scope of ancillary offences in the devolved Administrations is not different, but the drafting takes account of the different laws in different places across the UK. My noble friend Lady Berridge asked who would pay the costs of storage and transport. The matter of who will pay associated costs will have to be determined on a case-by-case basis. The DCMS will work closely with any museum if that need arises.

Finally, to come back to the cultural protection fund, the British Council will be responsible for managing the grants process and will draw in additional expertise for project selections. The noble Lord, Lord Redesdale, asked about the British Museum’s £3 million and funding for future years. As I am sure he knows, it has not yet been allocated. Of course, the British Museum will be able to apply when applications are invited. The cultural protection fund will be open for bids later this month, and the Blue Shield organisation will be able to apply to this.

I have sought to answer the main questions. We will write where I have missed important points. This in reality is a good time to consider UK ratification of the convention, even if the reason—the great increase in devastating and mindless destruction of priceless, important artefacts—can only be a matter of great sadness. We in the UK must do our bit to counter the appalling destructive forces at large and to protect the world’s heritage. I commend this Bill to the House.