Oral Answers to Questions

Emily Thornberry Excerpts

Tuesday 25th March 2014 Commons Chamber

[The Solicitor-General]

No, the shortfall does not have anything to do with that figure. It is worth bearing in mind the fact that money is recovered in different ways. More than £76 million has been returned to victims as a result of Serious Fraud Office activity since 2009, so it is wrong to ignore compensation and other moneys paid to victims when looking at the overall picture.

[Emily Thornberry (Islington South and Finsbury) (Lab)]

The Solicitor-General refers to the National Audit Office report—it was shocking, was it not?—which talks about how the confiscation of criminal assets is just not working at the moment. There are 27% fewer asset restraining orders than there were in 2010; £450 million remains unpaid, even after defendants have served extra time; and £285 million in foreign banks cannot be touched—I could go on, but I am sure that Mr Speaker would not wish me to do so. What plans do the Solicitor-General and Attorney-General have to strengthen enforcement of confiscation orders? Will the Solicitor-General improve our co-operation with overseas jurisdictions? How can we make sure that our justice system gets its hands on these ill-gotten gains?

[The Solicitor-General]

The hon. Lady is covering a much broader area than that raised in the question. As I think she would agree, the Serious Fraud Office has a superb unit that is actively after the money that it leads on—£100 million—and it is believed to be extremely competent. [Interruption.] The extra money is nothing to do with this particular aspect. Overall, we do need a proper strategy to improve confiscation and asset recovery, and that is under way. Ministers are meeting on the matter, and a new strategy from the Crown Prosecution Service was explained in more detail when evidence was given to the Justice Committee. I think the hon. Lady is being over-critical, as it is not always easy to extract money that is overseas in complex trust arrangements and hard to recover.

Oral Answers to Questions

Emily Thornberry Excerpts

Tuesday 11th February 2014 Commons Chamber

[The Solicitor-General]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for that question, because this is a very important issue. Ministers met non-governmental organisations last week to discuss how to make progress. A number of things are happening. He will know that the Crown Prosecution Service is currently reviewing 10 cases, and it is very much hoped that it will be possible to ground a prosecution. However, the key thing is that one does need evidence, so it is very important that the information gathering for the sort of evidence that is needed for a successful prosecution is found and pursued. Every effort is being made, and I have recently visited all the units concerned.

[Emily Thornberry (Islington South and Finsbury) (Lab)]

Child abuse and rape prosecutions are falling because the agencies are not working together. I have uncovered the fact that local authorities are not disclosing information to police and prosecutors and the fact that the police are referring fewer and fewer cases to prosecutors. We now need to know what the Solicitor-General and his brother and sister Ministers are going to do to show some leadership on this issue. Are the Government doing nothing about it because violence against women and girls is not a priority for them, or because the 27% cuts to the CPS and the loss of a quarter of its lawyers mean that the Solicitor-General is resigned to the idea that more and more cases are going to be dropped?

Oral Answers to Questions

Emily Thornberry Excerpts

Wednesday 29th January 2014 Commons Chamber

[The Prime Minister]

I can certainly give the hon. Gentleman that assurance. This does need to be a whole Government effort, because what I do not want to see is dredging work being held up by arguments in other Departments. We have to crack this problem. I join him in praising all of those—the emergency services, the Environment Agency, local flood wardens—who have done such valuable work, including in the Somerset Levels, but we now need to move more rapidly to issues such as dredging, which I think will help to make a long-term difference.

[Emily Thornberry (Islington South and Finsbury) (Lab)]

Q10. Mount Pleasant in my constituency is a massive development site that used to belong to Royal Mail, and therefore to all of us. It was sold for an absolute song. Is it not morally right for at least half the site to be used for local people? Independent valuers have said that the developers could build 50% genuinely affordable housing and still make a huge profit. In those circumstances and given the level of local opposition to the current plan to develop the site, would it not be outrageous for the Mayor of London to approve it? How can 12% affordable housing help with the cost of living crisis for Londoners?

[The Prime Minister]

I am happy to look at the site that the hon. Lady mentioned, but it is important that we allow the Mayor of London to carry out his planning responsibilities. What is important is that, when there are redevelopment opportunities, they are not endlessly blocked, because we need the development, the growth and the housing.

Oral Answers to Questions

Emily Thornberry Excerpts

Tuesday 7th January 2014 Commons Chamber

[The Solicitor-General]

The way in which the police investigate cases is independent. The hon. Gentleman could raise it with the Home Secretary, but it is not dealt with by the Crown Prosecution Service. The new CPS guidelines constitute a major step forward, as do the new national network of rape and child sex abuse prosecutors, which provides a source of expertise on such offences in each area. That will lead to more effective prosecutions.

[Emily Thornberry (Islington South and Finsbury) (Lab)]

One of the reasons for the decline in the number of prosecutions for child abuse is that the police are not referring as many cases to the Crown Prosecution Service despite the fact that the numbers remain constant, but the other major factor is that local authorities are not co-operating with the Crown Prosecution Service. Was the Minister as shocked as I was to discover that in the past three years two thirds of councils have refused to disclose information to the police and to the CPS in child abuse cases? Does he think in future he should monitor this, rather than leave it to me, through the Freedom of Information Act, to discover that information, and will he consider making disclosure compulsory in future if this situation does not improve?

[The Solicitor-General]

In fact, the Attorney-General and I have been concerned about this issue and as a result Her Majesty’s inspectorate of the CPS has undertaken a report on disclosure, which was published recently. It is a matter that needs to be addressed. Having said that, the new protocol and the way in which the various authorities are coming together on this is encouraging. [Interruption.] The hon. Lady says something from a sedentary position which I cannot hear, but I assure her that all efforts are being made—

[Emily Thornberry]

I said they are not coming together.

[The Solicitor-General]

I do not want to get into pantomime mode and say, “Oh yes they are,” but the fact of the matter is that considerable progress is being made.

Oral Answers to Questions

Emily Thornberry Excerpts

Tuesday 19th November 2013 Commons Chamber

[The Attorney-General]

Yes, I have raised the matter on a number of occasions with both the previous and the present DPP. It would be best for me to write to my hon. Friend in respect of any statistics; they are not very easy to come by, unfortunately. One issue I often raise when I see some of Her Majesty’s judges on my visits to courts is a request for them to feed in to me any such examples rather than just to rely on anecdote. Nobody pretends that the CPS is a 100% efficient organisation, but I would like to take this opportunity to say that the last director left it in a much better condition than the one he inherited, and made substantial progress.

[Emily Thornberry (Islington South and Finsbury) (Lab)]

Does the Attorney-General recall that over a year ago, in relation to Hillsborough, I advised him to consider

“discussing with the DPP the value of instructing, at the outset, a senior and independent-minded Queen’s counsel to lead the review of evidence and the decision-making process on any possible prosecutions”?—[Official Report, 16 October 2012; Vol. 551, c. 157.]

He now finds himself unable to discuss Hillsborough with the current DPP, as she previously advised no further action be taken on it. Indeed, the official she nominated is also compromised. With hindsight, does the right hon. and learned Gentleman now regret not taking my advice?

[The Attorney-General]

In circumstances in which a potential conflict of interests might arise, there are perfectly available mechanisms for my liaison with the Crown Prosecution Service to continue. I have every confidence that this matter is being dealt with appropriately. I am also satisfied that, if there is a need for liaison between my office and the CPS, it can be readily secured with the Crown prosecutor who is dealing with the case.

Oral Answers to Questions

Emily Thornberry Excerpts

Wednesday 30th October 2013 Commons Chamber

[The Prime Minister]

I certainly join my hon. Friend in paying tribute to his constituent for how he has turned his life around and is contributing to our economy. We see 400,000 more businesses up and running in our country—[Interruption.] Of course Labour Members do not want to hear about success stories. They do not care about enterprise; they do not care about small businesses. It is this enterprise and this small business that are turning our country around.

[Emily Thornberry (Islington South and Finsbury) (Lab)]

Q8. A new flat has just been launched in my constituency, which has been built partly as a result of public money under the Government’s affordable housing scheme, known as Share to Buy. It is a two-bedroom flat in Pear Tree court and it costs £720,000. Does the Prime Minister believe that to be affordable and, if so, to whom?

[The Prime Minister]

We need to build more houses in our country and that is why we are reforming the planning system, which Labour opposed, why we have introduced Help to Buy, which Labour opposed, and why we have put extra money into affordable housing, which Labour opposed. Labour is now the “build absolutely nothing anywhere” party and as a result housing will become less affordable.

House of Lords Reform (No. 2) Bill

Emily Thornberry Excerpts

Friday 18th October 2013 Commons Chamber

[Jesse Norman]

rose—

[Emily Thornberry (Islington South and Finsbury) (Lab)]

rose—

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo)]

Order. I was not informed that the Opposition Front-Bench spokesman wanted to come in now. Is that the case?

[Emily Thornberry]

Indeed, Madam Deputy Speaker.

[Madam Deputy Speaker]

Forgive me, Mr Norman. I will take the Opposition Front-Bench spokesman, then I will come straight back to you.

[Emily Thornberry]

My apologies to the hon. Member for Hereford and South Herefordshire (Jesse Norman).

I congratulate the hon. Member for North Warwickshire (Dan Byles) on introducing the Bill. He has been lucky to be drawn so high in the ballot, and he has shown great judgment in deciding to bring this Bill before the House. It is modest, it is wholly sensible and it is needed. There has been some talk from the Minister of the Bermuda triangle of House of Lords reform. I hope that the hon. Member for North Warwickshire, with his history as an Atlantic rower, will be able to get us out of the Bermuda triangle together and safely.

I also compliment the hon. Gentleman on the way he dealt with the matter today. At first he rather reminded me of a man trying to swat an irritating fly away from his modest sandwich, but then I thought that was unfair to him, because he was being so polite, deferential and respectful to hon. Members. He seemed more to be saying, “Honourable Fly, please take a seat. You may think that this piece of cucumber is good for you, but let me assure you that cucumber is very bad for flies.”

The hon. Gentleman also showed that he has done his homework by answering fully all sorts of points, some of which I had never considered, and those points that he was unable to answer today he hopes to be able to answer in Committee. I can assure him at this early stage that the Opposition will be supporting his Bill.

The House of Lords is too big. I understand that it currently has 825 Members, although that figure might be out of date already, because it goes up all the time. The Minister talked about the decision, set out in the coalition agreement, that the other place should reflect the results of the general election, and it seems to me that a strange kind of arms race is beginning. If we appoint Members to the other place after every general election in order to reflect the result but have no means by which they can leave, we will of course end up with a House of Lords that is far too large.

I have heard all sorts of tales from friends in the other place about having to get to the Chamber 25 minutes before a debate begins to ensure that they get a seat, and there are all the other difficulties that result from there simply being overwhelming numbers in the other place. I think that the continual appointment of large numbers of Members to the other place is undermining its ability to function properly and is to be regretted.

[Mr Chope]

Can the hon. Lady enlighten the House on the policy of Her Majesty’s official Opposition on what should be the maximum number of peers?

--- Later in debate ---

[Emily Thornberry]

That is not something we are in a position to say at the moment. What we have always said in relation to House of Lords reform is that it needs to be done by agreement. We have to be able to sit down, talk together and reach sensible conclusions. There are sensible people in this place, and if they go into negotiations in good will we can reach a proper conclusion. I do not want to go over the problems of the past year or so, but our view is that the difficulty with those negotiations is that they did not begin on that basis.

Clause 1 would allow peers to resign or retire, and that seems entirely sensible. I do not believe that becoming a peer should be a life sentence. There are many reasons why people might want to leave the other place. They might be ill, or there might be other things they want to do, so it seems entirely sensible that they should be able to leave if they so wish. It does not seem sensible that they should continue to have desks and that papers should continue be delivered to them if they are not attending. I understand that if we were to introduce these measures, it is anticipated that the numbers would go down automatically by 10%, based on the estimates I have seen.

Clause 2, which would allow for automatic severance if someone is not fit to attend for a whole Session without leave—essentially, the “able” clause—seems very sensible. So, too, is clause 3, which would allow a peer to lose their seat if they had been convicted of a criminal offence and were sentenced to at least a year’s imprisonment or an indefinite sentence. Surely that is nothing more than a sensible provision that already applies in this place. There is some discretion in relation to overseas prison sentences, and I understand the reasoning behind that. My only regret, I suppose, is that it is not retrospective, so even if the Bill is passed, Lord Archer stays.

Labour supports the Bill, as, I am pleased to see, does the Political and Constitutional Reform Committee. Our support, however, does not detract from our support for full democratic reform of the House of Lords. I have only one other quibble with the Bill: having looked at the website of the hon. Member for North Warwickshire—I understand that it is a marginal seat—I note that he is calling it the Byles Bill, but I suspect that it will always be known as the Steel Bill.

--- Later in debate ---

[Jacob Rees-Mogg]

On a point of order, Mr Deputy Speaker. I wish to move, under Standing Order No. 63, that the Bill, having been given a Second Reading—I am clarifying that for my hon. Friend the Member for Christchurch (Mr Chope)—be committed to a Committee of the whole House.

[Emily Thornberry]

Further to that point of order, Mr Deputy Speaker.

[Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle)]

Is it really a point of order?

[Emily Thornberry]

I ask for your ruling, Mr Deputy Speaker, on whether this is correctly a point of order. The inconsistency that has been shown this afternoon is extraordinary—

[Mr Deputy Speaker]

Order. It is absolutely not a point of order. I thought that it might have been something relevant.

Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing Order No. 63)(2),

That the House of Lords Reform (No. 2) Bill be committed to a Committee of the whole House.—(Jacob Rees-Mogg.)

Oral Answers to Questions

Emily Thornberry Excerpts

Tuesday 15th October 2013 Commons Chamber

[The Deputy Prime Minister]

My party has not called for the policy to be scrapped. It has debated—

[Emily Thornberry (Islington South and Finsbury) (Lab)]

Why not?

--- Later in debate ---

[The Solicitor-General]

My hon. Friend raises an important point. As he will know, the Secretary of State for Justice has announced a wider review of out-of- court disposals, but at the recent meeting which I mentioned, convened by the Director of Public Prosecutions, it was agreed that there needs to be a closer analysis of domestic violence figures and how out-of-court disposals are being dealt with. That is ongoing.

[Emily Thornberry (Islington South and Finsbury) (Lab)]

The Solicitor-General has given us a rather tantalising answer, telling us that in September there was a meeting on ensuring that more cases were taken by the police and given to the Crown Prosecution Service for charging. We are all concerned that the CPS is not getting enough cases in front of it on which to make decisions. The Solicitor-General tells us that six actions have been agreed. Would he like to tell us what they are?

[The Solicitor-General]

I did not want to trespass on Mr Speaker’s good will, but I am delighted to set out the six actions. First, Her Majesty’s inspectorate of constabulary will carry out a themed inspection of domestic violence, liaising closely with the Home Office and the CPS. Secondly, the evidence that I have just mentioned about how out-of-court disposals are dealt with will be examined in more detail to see what is happening in this area. Thirdly, the performance of the CPS is being closely examined to see whether there are differences between areas in the way in which cases are referred. The fourth action entails looking at the independent domestic violence adviser network and making sure that it is performing consistently across the country. Fifthly, six areas are being reviewed and cases which were not referred to the police are being examined closely to see why. Sixthly, the Crown Prosecution Service is going to give further advice to the police about how to pursue cases without the witnesses giving evidence.

Oral Answers to Questions

Emily Thornberry Excerpts

Tuesday 9th July 2013 Commons Chamber

[The Solicitor-General]

The CPS, of course, keeps quite a range of different management information, but that is not one of them. I am certainly happy to consider whether it would be possible, but against the background that we do not want to clog up the system with a lot of over-reporting and regulatory concerns at a time when we are reducing costs.

[Emily Thornberry (Islington South and Finsbury) (Lab)]

I am concerned about the Solicitor-General’s complacency on this issue, particularly in the light of what has happened in the last three weeks. Crown court judges across the country, from Bristol to Warwick and from Warwick to Croydon, have said publicly what all those working in the criminal justice system have been saying privately for some time—that the CPS is dogged by delays and disorganisation, that trials are being put at risk and that there is a danger that people charged with very serious offences such as murder and rape will walk away scot-free. I have written to the Director of Public Prosecutions about this, and I would ask the Solicitor-General to acknowledge these problems and tell us exactly what it is that he is going to do about them.

[The Solicitor-General]

The hon. Lady has written a letter to the Director of Public Prosecutions, citing three cases out of 800,000—and they are not what they seem. For example, in one case, the advocate for the prosecution fell ill at court; the judge was not aware of that and made some comments about the way in which the case was being conducted, but at the time—

[Emily Thornberry]

It was a murder case.

[The Solicitor-General]

It was indeed a serious case, but when that advocate fell ill, he was replaced by another, and a conviction followed.

I do not think that picking three instances, all of which involve special circumstances, is the right way of dealing with this. The HMCPSI report examined 2,800 cases, reviewing the files in detail, and they presented a promising picture.

Oral Answers to Questions

Emily Thornberry Excerpts

Tuesday 4th June 2013 Commons Chamber

[The Attorney-General]

My hon. Friend raises an important issue, but ultimately it is rather outside my remit. There are circumstances in which compensation can be paid to victims of crime, including from assets that may have been recovered. The Crown Prosecution Service and the SFO will operate according to the rules that are laid down.

[Emily Thornberry (Islington South and Finsbury) (Lab)]

The new director of the Serious Fraud Office has said that we should have a sensible debate about the introduction of the new offence of corporate criminal liability, so that companies could be prosecuted for fraud, as they are under the Bribery Act 2010. Does the Attorney-General agree that it is a good idea to have such a debate, or does he agree with some of his colleagues that instead of being built on, the Bribery Act should be watered down?

[The Attorney-General]

If I may say first, there is no question, as far as I am concerned, of the Bribery Act being watered down. It is true that the interpretation of the Act has at times given rise to difficulties, including unnecessary ones for businesses in understanding what it requires of them, so an educational process may be required.

On changing the rules on criminal liability, I am the first to recognise that it is an important issue and one that will obviously require major debate and consideration in this House. There are compelling arguments for why that should happen, but equally perfectly sound arguments have also been made about why it should not happen.