Oral Answers to Questions
Emma Hardy Excerpts(1 month, 1 week ago)
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Mel Stride
I could not agree more with my hon. Friend. It is exactly why we have youth hubs providing advice and support on not just getting into work but other important matters to young people, such as housing, their health and debt management.
Emma Hardy (Kingston upon Hull West and Hessle) (Lab)
I was talking to the Royal National Institute of Blind People, which represents the blind and partially sighted. It told me of an employee who said,
“I am newly employed and I am unable to fulfil my role. It has been extremely stressful and frustrating”,
and this is because of Access to Work. Does the Minister agree that without having Access to Work in place within the first four weeks of someone entering work, it is incredibly difficult for them to maintain that position?
Mel Stride
I am pleased that the hon. Lady raises Access to Work, because it is extremely effective. The grant can be there year in, year out and be up to a maximum of £66,000. Along with other approaches, it has very much led to our meeting our employment goal for disabled people in half the time that we set in 2017—over a million more disabled people were in work by 2022.
Inclusive PPE
Emma Hardy Excerpts(1 month, 2 weeks ago)
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Emma Hardy (Kingston upon Hull West and Hessle) (Lab)
There have been significant developments in both the design and use of personal protective equipment over the last few decades. UK workplaces are undoubtably safer as a result. The Personal Protective Equipment at Work Regulations 1992, now amended to the Personal Protective Equipment at Work Regulations (Amendment) 2022, were an important step forward. They placed a duty on every employer in Great Britain to ensure that suitable PPE is provided to employees who may be exposed to a risk to their health or safety while at work. Regulation 4(3) states that personal protective equipment shall not be suitable unless:
“(b) it takes account of ergonomic requirements and the state of health of the person or persons who may wear it;
(c) it is capable of fitting the wearer correctly, if necessary, after adjustments within the range for which it is designed”.
However, despite being revised seven times since coming into force, the regulations do not make specific mention of women, who I hardly need to remind the Minister comprise half the population, or to others with protected characteristics under the Equality Act 2010. That omission continues to have significant, real-world consequences.
The world is finally waking up to the fact that women are not just smaller men, whether that is in the design of crash test dummies or in the creation only three years ago of the first anatomically accurate female 3D physiological model for medical students. PPE needs to be designed with the female anatomy in mind. That also applies to the needs of others who are not catered for by a typical male body pattern.
Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)
I commend the hon. Lady for raising this issue; I spoke to her about it before the debate. It is so important for everyone to have access to PPE that fits correctly depending on the industry in which they work, including the female construction workers who the hon. Lady has referred to. Back home, I have been contacted by constituents about the provision of PPE for pregnant women who are still working towards the end of their pregnancies. Should not more consideration be given to ensuring that they have correctly fitting PPE, as they are more at risk from hazards and other safety concerns in the workplace? Let us do it right for them.
Emma Hardy
I completely agree. That is exactly what the debate is about—ensuring that everyone is safe while at work.
In September last year, the National Association of Women in Construction Yorkshire published a research report on women’s PPE in the construction industry. I pay tribute to its author, Katy Robinson. Not only is she a resident of my area, but she inspired the speech that I am making tonight. She is also the campaign manager of NAWIC Yorkshire, a voluntary role that she undertakes outside work. She told me that most PPE distributors do stock women’s PPE, but the issue sometimes lies with employers, despite such PPE being readily available on the market. Her study found that 59.6% of employers did not provide women-specific PPE, which resulted in women wearing PPE designed for men and led to issues relating to ill-fitting PPE.
Ill-fitting PPE was found to cause a range of health and safety issues, including increased slips, trips and falls, an increased risk of entanglement, a limited range of motion, decreased dexterity from gloves, and impaired vision from safety glasses. Worryingly, 42% of women reported experiences relating to ill-fitting PPE which had had an impact on their careers. Long-term health problems included plantar fasciitis, Morton’s neuroma and tendinitis from poorly-fitting safety boots, and injury from suspension trauma and circulation damage as a result of ill-fitting harnesses.
According to other studies, 40% of women have reported experiencing an injury or incident that they identified as being related to PPE, 32% have had to make alterations or adjustments to PPE to make it fit, 77% have been exposed to dangers because of ill-fitting PPE, and 57% have found that their PPE sometimes or significantly hampered their work.
Every study reported that the majority of PPE is designed for men, and is based on outdated information and measurements. It could be argued that that is due to a historical lack of women in some sectors of industry and that those sectors just need some time to “catch up”, but there are also issues involving ill-fitting PPE in female-dominated industries such as healthcare, where it became a headline issue during the covid-19 pandemic.
Inclusive PPE is defined as personal protective equipment that takes into consideration the user’s protected characteristics, and momentum for change is building. Katy Robinson, who I mentioned earlier, founded the PPE Campaign with the aim of addressing
“the widespread inequalities in PPE provision and design among minority groups across the construction industry and beyond”.
The Chartered Institute of Building has launched a “PPE that fits” campaign to drive awareness of the way in which ill-fitting PPE is affecting health and safety on site while also hampering the industry’s ability to attract and retain a more diverse workforce. The Considerate Constructors Scheme, which helps the construction industry to raise its standards through construction site accreditation, has mandated the requirement of women-specific PPE. SHP is running a campaign called “Protection for everyone” to raise awareness of the issue, and locally, East Riding of Yorkshire Council voted to urge the UK Government to enforce inclusive PPE in industries involving science, technology, engineering and mathematics. Arco, which is based in my constituency and a leading UK provider of health and safety products and PPE, recognises the need for change and fully supports the campaign to improve inclusivity. I understand that this campaigning is indeed leading to change and that an increase in women’s PPE provision has been seen since it began, but workers deserve a guarantee that they will be protected.
The Minister may say that the issues I have highlighted are covered by the regulations, but there is overwhelming evidence that as they stand, the regulations are not effective in ensuring that large numbers of workers are receiving the protection they need. Reference to the Equality Act 2010 can be found in guidance surrounding the regulations, but it is not statutory. Well-fitting PPE should not be seen as best practice; it should be the minimum standard. An increasing number of manufacturers are creating products designed for women, including maternity PPE, and those that do typically sell them at the same cost point as men’s. Unfortunately, some manufacturers still only make men’s PPE, meaning that they can sell them at a cheaper cost point, as there is more demand for it and they make a loss on women’s PPE—hence the assumption that men’s PPE is cheaper than women’s. This gives a competitive advantage to companies that choose to ignore 50% of the population and all others with protected characteristics who suffer from the impact of ill-fitting PPE.
I believe that specific reference to the Equality Act 2010 is a significant omission from the regulations and should be addressed. I acknowledge that the regulations have been regularly revised since they were drafted, and I note that it was rightly seen fit in the Personal Protective Equipment at Work (Amendment) Regulations 2022 to change the pronouns from he/his to they/theirs to be more inclusive, but the regulations did not address the issue that is materially affecting thousands of people’s lives and careers. I urge the Minister to return to them and make the necessary changes.
The Minister for Disabled People, Health and Work (Mims Davies)
May I start by congratulating the hon. Lady on securing such an important and interesting Adjournment debate? I would like to stress from the outset that the Government entirely support her assertion that personal protective equipment issued to workers should be inclusive and, of course, meet individual needs. The Government recognise that when we refer to “inclusive” in this context, it is not just a matter of gender, because the requirement covers disabilities, race and religion, which really emphasises the personal in PPE.
I understand the hon. Lady’s point about providers waking up to the anatomy of women, and I fully agree. The availability of Mary Earps’s World cup jersey was probably a bit too late for the hon. Lady’s liking, mine and many others’ as well.
I congratulate Katy Robinson on her work with women in construction. In my time looking after the Health and Safety Executive, it has been a delight to hear women’s voices, and Katy is obviously a leading light.
It is the legal duty of employers to protect their workers from risks to their health and safety, and they must consider ways in which they can remove or reduce risk by any other means before PPE is provided. PPE includes high-visibility clothing, safety helmets, gloves, footwear and hearing protection. It should be regarded as the last resort to protect against risks to health and safety, but a rounded approach must be taken. For many workers, PPE is issued by employers to ensure that they are protected against risks that cannot otherwise be controlled, as I have outlined. PPE may be needed to reduce the risk of ill health and injury from hazards, such as breathing in dust or fumes, being splashed with corrosive liquids that may damage eyes or skin, and excessive noise, which may affect hearing and create hearing loss.
I turn to a couple of points made by the hon. Lady, and I will try to reassure her. I understand that the relevant trade association, the British Safety Industry Federation, is initiating a project with the British Standards Institution to look at whether industry standards can be better framed to ensure that inclusive PPE is better designed. Manufacturers make up a significant proportion of those who sit on the relevant British standards technical committees for products of this type and, rightly, they are capable of influencing the range of what can be supplied.
The hon. Lady talked about the Equality Act and set out a number of protected characteristics that prevent workers from being discriminated against in the regulations. The protected characteristics cover age, disability, gender reassignment, marriage and civil partnership, pregnancy, maternity, race, religion or belief, and sex and sexual orientation.
On the HSE’s comprehensive guidance, I note the hon. Lady’s ask for statutory guidance, and I am sure that it will be listening to her queries. I am sure that if there is anything I cannot cover in the debate, we will be writing to her about it. The HSE guidance already clarifies the position relating to workers with protected characteristics and states that PPE provided must take this into account. There is no exemption from the regulations for disabled people, and suitable PPE must be worn and provided if the risk assessment indicates that it is required. I hope that that reassures the House.
It is the responsibility of the employer to ensure that suitable personal protective equipment is provided to workers who may be exposed to a risk to their health and safety, to increase the likelihood of acceptance of and happiness with that equipment. As the hon. Lady pointed, out ill-fitting boots present trip hazards and overalls with sleeves or cuffs that are too long increase the risk of entrapment in moving machinery, so it is important that PPE fits well. She mentioned the need for suitability to anatomy as well.
The design of PPE is regulated by UK regulation 2016/425 on personal protective equipment. Annex II of the regulation sets out the essential health and safety requirements that PPE must meet. This includes requirements that cover comfort and effectiveness. The hon. Lady also pointed out an issue with the lack of employer awareness when procuring items, rather than those items not being available, so tonight’s debate is a welcome opportunity for us to spell out what employers should be doing.
Let me turn to the existing requirements in the Personal Protective Equipment at Work Regulations 1992. Where PPE is necessary, the regulations already state that the ergonomic requirements and the health condition of the person wearing it must be taken into account. It is clearly important that the wearer of the PPE should always be involved in the process, to increase the likelihood of the acceptance and effectiveness of the equipment. For any employees listening, that is equally important for them to know. In this context, “suitable” means that it is appropriate for the risks involved and, more importantly, takes into account ergonomic requirements, the health conditions of the wearer, and the fact that it is capable of fitting the wearer correctly without further increasing the risk. Those regulations are there, and I reiterate that to the House this evening.
The Health and Safety Executive and local authorities are responsible for regulating and enforcing the provision of PPE at work. Those authorities will take robust action if they receive reports of employers who do not ensure that PPE that meets the requirements is issued to workers. They have also published a range of readily available guidance to assist employers to comply with their obligations. This highlights the fact that “one size fits all” is unacceptable. I bought my own protective boots for site visits so that I know they will fit correctly.
Emma Hardy
On that point, I can give the Minister a concrete example. I visit certain places with a member of my office staff who has size 3 feet, and she is unable to find any boots that fit her. That is a regular occurrence when we go on these visits. People assume that everyone has larger feet.
Mims Davies
The hon. Lady makes an excellent point. My feet are hardly the size of Kylie Minogue’s, sadly, but sometimes those boots are just too big, aren’t they?
The Equality Act 2010 sets out a number of protected characteristics, including gender, race, disability and religion. If a risk assessment undertaken by the employer indicates that it is necessary, PPE should be suitable and sufficient, and of course those protected characteristics must be taken into account. Those requirements under the regulations are enforceable. It is right to remind people that there is suitable guidance, both for industry and inspectors.
Taking a slight step back from the PPE issues, and turning to product safety and ensuring safety through design and manufacture, the Office for Product Safety and Standards is responsible for the legislative and standards framework that governs PPE, which is also regulated by regulation 2016/425. Annex II sets out the essential health and safety requirements that PPE must meet, which include comfort and effectiveness:
“PPE must be designed and manufactured in such a way as to facilitate its correct positioning on the user and to remain in place for the foreseeable period of use, bearing in mind ambient factors, the actions to be carried out and the postures to be adopted. For this purpose, it must be possible to adapt the PPE to fit the morphology of the user by all appropriate means, such as adequate adjustment and attachment systems or the provision of an adequate range of sizes.”
I am sure the hon. Lady is pointing to that this evening.
Supporting these regulations is a suite of technical standards. Manufacturers make up a significant proportion of the members of the technical committees for these products, and they have the ability to influence the range that is supplied in this way. Again, this debate is a timely reminder that these regulations do not mandate manufacturers to produce PPE for specific users. However, the Government support any initiative—we have heard about some tonight—that improves design to meet the needs of the full range of users.
I understand from the OPSS that gender-responsive standards have been raised by industry groups, and that the British Safety Industry Federation is initiating a project with the British Standards Institution to look at how those industry standards can be better framed to ensure that PPE in particular is designed better and more appealingly for women.
Although the development of standards can take years, the law is clear about what is required. PPE must be suitable for the task and for each individual. I took time to reflect on the issue in preparation for this debate, and I am aware of the significant steps that have recently been taken by manufacturers. It seems clear that they are working harder than ever to increase their understanding of their customers’ needs, which has partly driven an increase in the range available, but tonight proves the point.
I have been made aware of at least one article that suggests the perceived lack of available inclusive PPE is more about employers’ lack of awareness in procuring the right items than about items not being readily available. In addition, a recent article in New Civil Engineer highlighted the PPE campaign that is working to raise awareness and to address inequalities in PPE provision and design for minority groups. There is a focus on women, but it also covers wider minority groups. One success highlighted in the article, relating to PPE and inclusivity, was that after a procurement team was alerted to the fact that items were available, those items were subsequently included in the internal procurement catalogue. Again, the issue was about awareness.
Although I am touching on successes in recent work, there is clearly more to be done. That is what tonight’s debate is about and why the Health and Safety Executive has leant its support to the “Protection for Everyone” campaign launched by Safety and Health Practitioner. The campaign aims to raise awareness about the effect of ill-fitting PPE and contains stories from those who have faced challenges in getting suitable PPE. The Government wholeheartedly support this message and we look forward to seeing how it progresses
The debate has provided a welcome opportunity to explore PPE. As I said to the hon. Member for Kingston upon Hull West and Hessle, if there are further points that are relevant, I will respond to her in writing. I hope this reassures hon. Members in the Chamber this evening, including the hon. Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon) —we would expect nothing less—and others, that the legislation on PPE is appropriate. The Government are committed to raising awareness and, as some hon. Members mentioned, encouraging more manufacturers to provide PPE that is fully inclusive for their customers and their users.
Question put and agreed to.
Oral Answers to Questions
Emma Hardy Excerpts(2 months, 3 weeks ago)
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Mims Davies
I thank my hon. Friend for highlighting the value of our local DWP programmes. In Rother Valley, the Reed in Partnership approach has given vital support to his constituents, helping them into work. It is vital to keep supporting them to remain there, and that is where that particular programme helps. Access to Work and our Disability Confident scheme are just some of the initiatives to support disabled people and those with health conditions while in employment.
Emma Hardy (Kingston upon Hull West and Hessle) (Lab)
Half the women surveyed with endometriosis had to take time off work often or very often because of their condition, and one in six women had to give up work altogether. Will the Minister meet the incredible women from Endometriosis Support Hull and East Yorkshire to discuss the work they are doing with the local trade unions to create a best practice charter for employers in Hull to support women with endometriosis in the workplace?
Mims Davies
I was in Aberdeen on Thursday meeting women with health conditions and hearing about how we can better support women who are having debilitating impacts from the menopause. That was in the oil and gas sector, where it takes a long time to build up to a senior career. I would be interested to hear about the work that the hon. Lady’s local team are doing. Through the wider women’s health strategy, we are supporting women to have a thriving career all the way through. I am keen to hear from her and those women, and to support the women to stay in work.
Oral Answers to Questions
Emma Hardy Excerpts(10 months, 2 weeks ago)
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Mel Stride
My hon. Friend is quite right, and I wrote to him to congratulate him on his well deserved CBE. Part of the answer to his question lies in his private Member’s Bill, which we see as an important tool to allow us to tighten up the regulations and requirements as expressed through local authorities to ensure that those who are abusing the system—it is not everyone—are dealt with appropriately.
Emma Hardy (Kingston upon Hull West and Hessle) (Lab)
The National Audit Office found that benefit fraud and error was unacceptably high, totalling £8.6 billion in 2021-22. What actions will the Secretary of State take to reduce fraud? Importantly, how will he ensure that the clawing back of DWP errors—those that are not the fault of the claimant—is carefully and fairly considered so that that does not put the claimant further into poverty?
Mel Stride
The hon. Lady raises an important point. The Government’s record under my stewardship at the DWP is a good one. In fact, since the fraud plan was published last May, fraud across the benefit system has reduced by some 10%, and across universal credit there has been a 13% drop. We expect to see those figures increasing through time. We are doing that through targeted case reviews—going through cases and looking for fraud and error—and I have another 1,000 people being recruited for that purpose. We are also using artificial intelligence, data analytics and machine learning to ensure that we catch up with the more sophisticated attacks on our system. There is evidence that we are making good headway.
Oral Answers to Questions
Emma Hardy Excerpts(1 year, 1 month ago)
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Mel Stride
I can reassure my hon. Friend that we are most certainly looking carefully at that particular cohort of people who have prematurely retired—if I may use that term—and are over the age of 50. It is one of the biggest cohorts that we are trying to encourage back into the workforce, and I will have more to say on that matter in due course.
Emma Hardy (Kingston upon Hull West and Hessle) (Lab)
The pandemic made a revolutionary change to the way we work. I know the Secretary of State has heard me mention Work Hull: Work Happy before, but research published today by the Phoenix Group on economic inactivity in the over-50s states that
“flexible work…support with new technologies…and the opportunity to work from home”
are favoured support strands for people returning to work. Will the Secretary of State therefore back Labour’s plan to make flexible working a force for good for all workers?
Mel Stride
I very much welcome the hon. Lady’s question—I certainly enjoyed my time working with her on the Treasury Committee, where she raised these matters with great passion. She is absolutely right that flexible working is the way forward, and not just for the over-50s but often for those who have disabilities. This is a big opportunity that we need to seize.
Cost of Living Increases: Pensioners
Emma Hardy Excerpts(2 years, 1 month ago)
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Emma Hardy (Kingston upon Hull West and Hessle) (Lab)
Will the Secretary of State give way?
Dr Coffey
No, I will not.
The extra support is on top of a range of existing help for pensioners, including: winter fuel payments, which support over 11 million pensioners’ energy bills and is worth about £2 billion every year; cold weather payments, ensuring pensioners in need keep warm during the colder months; and the warm home discount, which we are extending until 2026, including expanding it to more recipients of pension credit, namely those who receive the savings credit element and live in a home with high energy costs. I am conscious that the warm home discount is a spreading of support towards people in this vulnerable cohort, but nevertheless it is thanks to Government intervention that that is the case. As a result, the number of households benefiting from the warm home discount will increase by almost a third, to 3 million—up from nearly 1 million at the moment—with the vast majority getting their payment automatically with no need to apply. Together, I think that will be welcomed by many people, recognising the extra support that people who are not currently eligible today will receive later this year.
Emma Hardy
I want to raise a point about prepayment meters. A written question to the Department for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy—admittedly, this Secretary of State represents a different Department—asked how people on prepayment meters would receive the £200 discount, many of whom happen to be pensioners. The answer, given on 25 February, was:
“BEIS will consult in the spring.”
It seems that the Government do not have a plan for how to refund the money to those on prepayment meters, but I hope that the Secretary of State can update us.
Dr Coffey
The hon. Lady asks a valid question. As I have said to the House before, tackling the cost of living and poverty more broadly is shared across Government. Although that may come under our umbrella—recognising our general role in support through the welfare system—my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy leads particularly on items to do with energy and fuel poverty more broadly. I will ask him to contact her.
That leads me on to pension credit, which has been highlighted as a passport to a range of other benefits, including free TV licences, help with council tax and NHS dental treatment. Together, those are making a real difference, reflecting the Government’s commitment to supporting pensioners and continuing the work of successive Governments since 2010—when the Conservatives took office—to tackle and alleviate pensioner poverty.
The facts speak for themselves. The latest figures show that 200,000 fewer pensioners are in absolute poverty than in 2010, with levels of material deprivation having fallen from 10% to 6%, a record low. It is because of our commitment over that time and policies such as the triple lock that, from next month, the full yearly basic state pension will be more than £2,300 higher in cash terms than it was in 2010. In fact, no Government have paid more to pensioners than we will this year: £105 billion alone through the state pension. When we include all the other pensioner benefits, that rises to £129 billion a year.
Our aim over the two years of the pandemic has been to give fairness to pensioners and taxpayers, recognising what has happened with covid. For 2021-22, we protected the value of the state pension by legislating to secure and increase the state pension by 2.5%, despite a decline in earnings and inflation rising by just 0.5%. Had we not acted, the state pension, by law, would have remained frozen. Again, through the Social Security (Up-rating of Benefits) Act 2021, which Parliament passed last November, we legislated to temporarily suspend the earnings part of the triple lock in 2022-23 for one year. As I outlined at the time, that was in response to exceptional circumstances caused by the distorting effects of the pandemic on the earnings statistics.
Pensions will still rise by 3.1% next month. That reflects the inflation index that has been used consistently for many years, so over the past two years, pensions will have risen by a total of 5.6%. Next year, we will return to implementing the triple lock in the usual way for the remainder of the Parliament. I reinforce that full commitment, and whatever the right hon. Member for Leicester South may suggest—he may be trying to score points on politics, which, as the shadow Secretary of State he is absolutely entitled to do—I want to make sure that he avoids scaremongering.
Dr Coffey
The hon. Lady raises a valid point. I know that we have had paid advertising in post offices and in GPs’ waiting areas in the past; doctors often tell us that they do not necessarily like to be attached to benefit claiming and similar matters, but I hear what the hon. Lady says, and my understanding is that we intend to resume that contact. I have also asked the leading pharmacy chains to be involved, because that is often a more regular way in which people get help. We will try different outlets, in addition to those we have tried in the past, to make people more aware of the potential opportunities.
Dr Coffey
The hon. Lady has already made one intervention, and I want to make some progress.
The right hon. Member for Leicester South asked about issues relating to state pension underpayment. I give credit to my hon. Friend the pensions Minister, who has rolled up his sleeves and really got stuck in. We have 500 people working on the state payment exercise, and before the end of the year we are aiming to have up to 1,500 people getting on with it. There will be an update after the fiscal statement; we have always said that we would give updates more or less in line with it, so the right hon. Member for Leicester South will have to be slightly patient. This issue has been going on for some considerable time. There was an element of shambles in previous Administrations, which was not helped by the 2008 reforms. I respect the former Minister Steve Webb, but he did not find this element at all in his five years as pensions Minister—not even when he was going through the whole process of creating a brand-new state pension. We are getting on with this element, which was not discovered until recently, and we will get on with the job and sort it out.
When we say that we are committed to tackling pension poverty, we mean it, and we have the track record to back it up. On Wednesday, it will have been two years since we took unprecedented action to lock down the country to protect lives. We invested in vaccines and subsequently rolled out the biggest and most successful vaccination programme in the history of the NHS, prioritising pensioners. Today, as we start inviting the over-75s to get their spring covid booster, we want to encourage pensioners to consider getting the boost to their income that pension credit could provide. With the wider range of financial and other support that we are providing, we are doing our best to help to ease the current cost of living squeeze.
We must unite as a House to get more pensioners to access the support that is available. While I am conscious that many people will think that there is more to do, we can do it only if all MPs in this House make a commitment to their pensioners—I look forward to their doing so—to continue to provide as much information as possible.
Emma Hardy (Kingston upon Hull West and Hessle) (Lab)
When I was little, I grew up next door to a wonderful couple called Marg and Ray. Marg was like a grandma to me. Sometimes when Mum was busy with my younger sister, she used to send me with a box of toys through the hole in the fence to Marg and Ray’s for the day to be looked after by Marg. I remember very distinctly a few times walking with her to the post office where she would go and get her pension, in cash, then coming back and sitting chatting to her in the room where we spent most of our time. There was a big sideboard in there and she would put different parts of cash into different areas of it. When I asked what she was doing, she would say, “That’s the money for my electric bill and that’s the money for this other bill”, separating out all the cash into the different compartments. She was terrified of getting into debt. Although she did not have much money, she never owed anybody anything, and she was fiercely proud of that.
When I was out recently talking to residents in the Pickering ward in Hull, I met some people who reminded me exactly of her. I talked to one elderly lady who told me the same thing about how she had never owed anyone anything. She was fiercely proud of the fact that she would never owe anyone a penny. I was trying to talk her into setting up a direct debit. I said, “If you set up a direct debit for your council tax and your bills, you get them cheaper.” She said, “No, I’m not setting up a direct debit. I couldn’t be owing them that money—I wouldn’t know what was going out each week or each month.” She was absolutely opposed to the idea of having a direct debit even though I was saying that she was paying more for her energy bills because she had a prepayment meter.
I have brought to the Minister’s attention before the issue of people with the least money paying the most—the poverty premium—and I will talk about it briefly now. I have spoken to many elderly people who have prepayment meters because they have a traditional and, I have to say, probably quite right idea that people should not owe money and should pay for what they want up front. It is not a fair system, however, as I have discussed with the Minister in the Treasury Committee; I hope that those conversations will be ongoing about how we can fully address the poverty premium.
A study by Fair By Design has shown that the poverty premium costs the average low-income household an extra £490 a year—that is how expensive it is to be poor. For more than one in 10 of those households, however, it costs an extra £780 a year. It is not a fair system. To give other examples of the poverty premium, it is why people end up paying more for car insurance or life insurance in areas of greater deprivation and why people pay more for credit and for all financial services when they have the least money. Our system is set up at the moment so that the poorer someone is, the more they pay. That is not fair and it is a huge contributing factor to the cost of living issues that pensioners face.
The highest poverty premium in Hull West and Hessle is area-based insurance. Constituents currently pay in total £1.3 million more for their insurance if their postcode is considered higher risk. As I say, I have mentioned that to the Minister before and he acknowledged that there is more to be done. When he comes to the Dispatch Box, I hope that he will talk more about what exactly will take place.
I intervened on the Secretary of State earlier to draw attention to concerns around the prepayment meter and how exactly people will get the £200 back, but there is also an issue with the direct debit. We have a situation in Hull where the money back on council tax was meant to be paid to people through reductions in their direct debit, but, of course, families who are in insecure work—not just pensioners—will face problems: they do not set up direct debits because they cannot guarantee how much money they will have each month.
Although I believe that the Minister is trying to take some actions to address the issue, there is a failure to really understand what life is like for many people who do not have direct debits and who are still scared of debt and use prepayment meters. The failure to design policies that address the poverty premium mean that, once again, the poorest pay the most.
Pensions Guidance and Advice
Emma Hardy Excerpts(2 years, 1 month ago)
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Each debate is chaired by an MP from the Panel of Chairs, rather than the Speaker or Deputy Speaker. A Government Minister will give the final speech, and no votes may be called on the debate topic.
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Nigel Mills
I am grateful to the Minister. He did say that he wanted the take-up of pension guidance to be the norm. Even with his changes, which I welcome, the take-up of Pension Wise will increase from a totally inadequate 14% to a really quite unacceptable 22%. I do not know how he defines a norm. I am not sure if there is a written definition of a norm, but I have a feeling that less than a quarter does not count as a norm. In that speech, which I stand by, I said that before they access their pension pot, I want the clear majority of people who have any level of pension savings to have taken guidance or advice.
However, I do not agree that such advice should be mandatory. We cannot put a gun to people’s heads and say, “You cannot have your money unless you sit through this. If you refuse to do it, no matter how long it takes, we’re not giving you your money.” Clearly, we cannot do that, but we can get pretty close to that situation. We need to find processes, techniques and measures that get that percentage up to somewhere much nearer the norm, so that people are not suffering the harm of doing this without understanding the whole landscape of what they are trying to do.
My big concern is not necessarily that people cannot understand the subject, although it is complicated, but that people do not know that there are all manner of uncertainties out there that they have not thought about. It is the “unknown unknowns” that are the problem here.
The beauty of a pension guidance appointment is that it gives people the chance to understand what they do not know, and then gives them the chance to go and find out what they do want to know so that they can make an informed decision. I am not suggesting that we can fix every problem of engagement through an hour or an hour and a half’s pension guidance appointment, but it would give people the tools to get the best possible outcome in their situation.
Emma Hardy (Kingston upon Hull West and Hessle) (Lab)
The hon. Gentleman is making an excellent speech. Further to his point, the need for clear and impartial guidance becomes even more important given the current levels of fraud. We are seeing people defrauded from their pensions and given very poor advice, which means they lose out on their savings, so having clear and impartial advice becomes even more important.
Nigel Mills
The hon. Lady is absolutely right. It is a sad fact that a small proportion of people, but all too many individuals, have not just made a decision that is not optimal but been tricked into something that has cost them the whole or nearly the whole of what they have saved during their working life, because they did not understand that what they were being promised by the snake oil salesman—the conman—was utterly unachievable.
With some kind of briefing or guidance, they would have had a chance to realise that such an outcome was not possible, that there was no way they would get that kind of return and that such an investment strategy was not remotely sensible. We could have saved them in that situation. We must try to get as many people as possible to take up this service, so that we can put such protections in place and people will have a chance to know that such schemes are not real.
Nigel Mills
I am grateful to the Minister. There is a danger, or there will be if we are not careful, of us starting to disagree on the fundamentals, whereas I thought we had a broad consensus of agreement that we needed to find a way to go further on the issue. Sir Hector Sants chairs the Money and Pensions Service, whose job it is to deliver financial advice and support to people around the country, and even he agrees. Sir Hector said that
“the vast majority of people, left to their own devices, will probably make a poor decision.”
The problem we have is that a large number of people—unless we are able to convince them to take some kind of guidance or input—are at risk of making a very poor decision that they will not be able to reverse. This is not like taking out the wrong mortgage, which people can change after two years. If people take out the wrong pension, they are stuck with it for the rest of their life. It is not fixable if someone has bought the wrong product.
I accept that all manner of other moving fields around the pension situation all have to come together, but if the Minister was saying—I am sure he was not—that the combination of a slightly-easier-to-read statement that gets sent out once a year, and which might or might not get sent out at the same point and that has some advantages, and the creation of a dashboard, which we hope people will engage with and look at regularly, will fix the fundamental problem of our having a pensions system that is hugely complicated and that people do not engage with or understand, even though they will have to make a difficult decision at some point, I am not that optimistic that we will get such a level of engagement through people’s saving journey that they will not need some input before they make their decision.
When we introduced these freedoms—I was on the Select Committee seven or eight years ago—we said yes to providing those freedoms, but the big ask was, “Are we going to help people on that journey?” I am perhaps a little disappointed that the solution that the then Government came up with was the Pension Wise service. At that point, the Government and the regulators expected huge take-up, and we were worried about the service being swamped and unable to cope, but we have found that Pension Wise has exceeded all expectations—except one. The feedback from people who use the scheme is hugely positive, as is its impact on their understanding of the pension landscape and on the decisions they go on to make. The one expectation it has not met has to do with take-up, which is nothing like what it was. In evidence sessions on pension schemes, people were saying that we might get 75% take-up, but we are stuck in the low teens, and the figure has been falling in recent years.
It is slightly incongruous: we introduced a policy of pension freedoms, recognised at the time that the situation would be difficult for people, and put in place a new guidance system to help them. We thought there would be huge take-up, and said that its use should be the norm. A few years on, the position has got worse, and we have more people retiring with only DC pensions—people who need this input. We have this huge gap in take-up, but think that is probably okay, because there are a few things online that people can find. That is a challenge. We need a sense of urgency and direction, so that we can hold the regulators to account for achievement.
I am grateful to all who helped me prepare for this debate and sent me useful briefings, particularly the House of Commons Chamber Engagement Team, which conducted an online survey of people’s lived experience. That chimed with what we see in our constituency casework and in evidence to the Select Committees. It is clear that people do not understand the situation and do not feel well informed during their saving journey, and then have problems over time.
One quote is from Charlotte:
“Guidance and advice is not provided in my workplace, unless you are almost at retirement age, which is way too late.”
Carole said:
“I have tried researching the information online but I find it very confusing.”
Anne, a constituent of mine, said:
“The Government should arrange pension roadshows to assist people with enquiries etc. Employers should hold pension surgeries and ensure guidance is available. There isn’t enough signposting and guidance in place.”
The evidence is pretty clear: there is a gap, and we need to fix that. What are the solutions? The Minister dragged me into talking about solutions earlier than I had planned; I was articulating the problem. Data on the size of the problem shows that HMRC received about £2 billion more than forecast in the early years of pension freedom as a result of people accessing their pensions. That is likely because people took the whole of their pension, as they now can, and became higher-rate taxpayers for the only time in their working life. That was a hugely foolish decision, giving the taxman 20% of their pension. That would not have happened if the pension had been taken out in a smooth way over years.
I am sure the Government do not want that benefit, but that £2 billion was a third more than was forecast. That suggests that something has gone wrong, and that people have not been making the wisest decisions. A Nobel- prize-winning economist has described working out what to do with a pension as
“the nastiest, hardest problem in finance”.
Nobody knows how long they will live, and many people assume they will live fewer years than they do, and end up with the horrible risk of running out of money.
I will move on to the argument the Minister was keen for us to have about how to improve the take-up of Pension Wise advice, and issuing appointments automatically or by default. I am asking for what the Select Committee asked for in its recent report: for the regulator to undertake trials on how to improve the take-up of pension guidance. We are not asking for tens of hundreds and thousands more appointments, and huge costs. We accept that, even with a stronger nudge, we will not get the figure high enough. We could give people an even stronger nudge and look at some of the options. Those include writing to people when they turn 50 or are approaching state pension age to say, “We have made you an appointment with Pension Wise at half-past three on such a date,” and giving them the chance to change the appointment. Or we could go back one step and say, “In six months’ time, you’ll hit state pension age. Before you can access your pension, you need a Pension Wise appointment. Here is the booking number.” There could be other combinations; for example, the pension provider could make planned appointments.
Whatever the trials and the options we look at, we are trying to work out whether giving people an appointment —a real kick—increases take-up, especially in the hard-to-reach groups that are not using the guidance service. I would have thought there were enough good-quality pension schemes out there that are keen to help their members and that would be willing to participate in a trial with the regulator, who could agree the rules and set the parameters. We could do that for a few thousand people on a representative basis.
Emma Hardy
The Treasury Committee got a letter on 16 February from the Financial Conduct Authority about the trials and how they have been designed. I wonder if the hon. Member shares my disappointment that it said,
“We are still in a design phase and have not yet determined all these details. Some of the answers to your questions will depend on further work.”
It does not feel as though there is a sense of urgency about the issue.
Nigel Mills
I agree. We had the regulator before the Select Committee, and initially she was quite resistant to do anything beyond giving the stronger nudge that the Minister had provided for, because she did not think Parliament wanted that. We should send the message loud and clear that we want to trial these things and see if they result in higher take-up. None of us would want people at Pension Wise to be sitting around at the end of the phone, waiting for calls, which are not coming in huge numbers, if they were providing something that people really do not want; but people who take these appointments value them, and find them useful. There are all manner of ways that call centres around the country handle unpredictable volume. They know what the take-up will be, and then plan everything with their staff; they move calls around so that they can handle surges in volume, or manage dips in take-up.
I am not saying to the Minister, “Bring in legislation to require a pension guidance appointment for every single saver approaching retirement. Resource Pension Wise to provide that that. Hey, if no-one turns up, it’s just money being lost.” But let us trial things that go beyond what he has already agreed to do, so that we get the take-up we all think we need. If people are not turning up, we will accept that it does not work. If people are turning up totally unengaged, and are there just because they think they have to be and have not bothered to do any research on their own finances, and it is a completely pointless conversation, we will accept that the automatic appointment system does not work. However, if we find, as I suspect we will, that it boosts take-up among the harder-to-reach people, let us roll it out more widely, because we can demonstrate the value of it. If we do not trial any of these things, we will be sitting here in a few years’ time with more people having suffered detriment, and we will be scrabbling around for ideas. We will not have the evidence, because we will not have trialled anything. That is all I am asking the Minister to do.
Another idea we have for improving the outcome is moving the line when it comes to what is advice and guidance, and giving better guidance to the pension schemes about what they can tell their members—what common-sense information they can give people about their options. I am slightly cautious on the latter point, because one of the arguments in favour of pension freedoms, and one of the big problems with the annuity market, was that savers were just defaulting into buying the annuity from their incumbent pension provider, and were not shopping around and understanding their position. They could have got a far better outcome if they bought an ill health annuity, or if they went to a different provider. I do not think we can say that the solution to this problem is for an incumbent pension scheme to tell members what four default pathways they have, and to see which one they want to pick.
Some kind of independent, impartial input should be available to savers, so that they know they can shop around and look elsewhere. The place that is the main contact with the saver should be able to give them useful information, and should be required to give them more useful information than they already do. We should find a way for the regulators to move the line, change the guidance or give some examples to schemes, or give schemes reassurance that they are not breaking the financial advice regulatory rules when giving people what is basically common-sense advice. That would be hugely helpful. If we can, we should reform the system—that is the best way I can put it—so that people do not have to incur the full cost of regulatory advice, which is usually thousands of pounds, and so that we can give people more tailored, individualised guidance on the best option for them. That would be a huge advantage.
It is clear that simple Pension Wise guidance is not the journey’s end that people want. They want something individualised. We need to find a way of making that easier and cheaper for them to get, while keeping it safe; we do not want people being led into buying a product by what they thought was impartial guidance. Making those improvements could give us a dramatic improvement in the situation.
I have spoken for longer than I was expecting to, so I will conclude my remarks by reiterating that I do not think that this issue divides us. We all recognise that we have a problem. We welcome the measures the Government have taken to improve the situation, but I urge the Minister to accept that he needs to go further. We need the regulators to take more action. I urge them to take up the relatively straightforward and low-cost trial options that are out there, so that we can see if we can get a better outcome, and can get more people using a high-quality, free, low-risk guidance service. There is literally no downside to people using it; it is a crying shame that it is not used more. That is all we want to see from this debate.
[Hannah Bardell in the Chair]
Emma Hardy (Kingston upon Hull West and Hessle) (Lab)
It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Ms Bardell. I will not repeat the excellent points made by the hon. Member for Amber Valley (Nigel Mills), but I echo many of them. The need for good pensions advice is real and pressing. Nobody jumps out of bed in the morning wanting to think about their pension—apart from everyone here, of course, who did that this morning. It is not top on their list of priorities, but it really matters.
Pensions advice matters more as we see the impact of the increased cost of living. More pensioners are falling into poverty and having to choose between heating and eating. The need for an adequate pension is even more pressing. My interest in this debate comes primarily from my role on the Treasury Committee, where I have taken a particular interest in this subject. In my intervention on the hon. Member for Amber Valley, I referred to the letter from the Financial Conduct Authority to the Chair of the Select Committee of 16 February about what a stronger nudge could be, and about trials to improve take-up of impartial pensions advice. My only criticism was the sense of a lack of urgency. There was a lot of, “Well, we are still in the design phase,” “We could try this,” and “We could try that.” There was nothing concrete.
One point that I would love the Minister to take away is that we need to push the FCA and say, “We want you to firm this up. What exactly will you do? When will these trials take place? When will you have a deadline for designing them?” It feels as though they are using warm words but not taking concrete action.
Obviously, pension decisions are complex, even for the well-informed saver. I have heard that many of us will end up with four or five pensions before we reach retirement, and people are having to try to work out the best advice when they are dealing with these many different pension pots. Gone are the days when people stayed in one career all their life and then retired. This added complexity really matters. I did a Facebook Live session on the subject and, believe it or not, members of the public did engage and were quite interested in the issue. They were particularly interested in how they find out where their missing pension pots were. That was another question that came up, which shows that people do not truly understand this subject.
As I mentioned in my intervention, the lack of high-quality advice leads to people being defrauded, which is heartbreaking. They are not just receiving poor pensions advice; they are being tricked and defrauded. That makes getting impartial advice even more important. We can say to people, “Don’t listen to these charlatans who are trying to steal your pensions. Go to this impartial advice service.” I truly do not think many people know that it is there. The feedback from people who use it is that it is a very positive service that gives really good advice. It makes people feel more informed about how to make their decisions. The difficulty, of course, is that if someone does not know the service is there, they will not go to it for advice, and then they are much more vulnerable to making poor decisions.
I want to mention issues that I will talk a lot about in future: the poverty premium and the hidden costs of poverty, and financial inclusion. It is relevant to mention them in this debate on workplace pensions because the Financial Inclusion Commission estimated in January last year that around 8.5 million workers were excluded from automatic enrolment in workplace pensions because they worked in the gig economy, were part time, and earned too little. Those workers tend to rent their homes,
“and will have little in the way of savings or other assets to draw on in retirement…In addition, employees who are eligible for automatic enrolment may not engage because they…don’t feel they can afford to make contributions out of their income”.
That is another of my concerns. I am hearing from residents who are choosing to opt out of pension contributions because of the cost of living. They do not feel they can afford things day to day, so they do not want to continue making pension contributions, and that is a huge worry that brings to the forefront the fact that everybody needs advice when making such decisions.
Nurses tell me that they are opting out of their pensions. I have tried desperately to convince them that the NHS pension is great, and have asked them to please stay in it, but people are deciding to opt out right now. Partly, they do not fully understand the consequences of the decisions that they are making today. That is why we need to ensure that there is excellent advice. I see that my right hon. Friend the Member for East Ham (Stephen Timms), the Chair of the Work and Pensions Committee, is here, so I will not go into the detail of the Committee’s recommendations.
Matt Rodda
It is good to see you in your place, Ms Bardell. My hon. Friend is making an excellent point about the very real difficulties facing so many families. Does she agree that she is, in part, referring to the wider cost of living crisis and its worrying knock-on effects on many, many families? They feel forced to make these terrible decisions because they are struggling to get to the end of the week as a result of rising heating and fuel bills.
Emma Hardy
My hon. Friend is absolutely right. The message that we would like to get to those who are making savings is: “Do not do it by not contributing to a pension, because you will need that money in future.” That is why we need important, impartial advice.
I am not a pensions specialist. I am just somebody with a keen interest in the subject because I see what happens to too many people when they go into retirement without the pensions that they need, and I see what happens when people are given poor advice and are defrauded. People just do not understand. They choose to take the lump sum today, not realising it pushes them into a higher tax bracket, and not realising the consequences for their future income. They just do not fully understand all the decisions. I truly believe that if we give people better advice, they will make decisions that mean we will, hopefully, have fewer people in poverty in future.
As I said, I was disappointed by what the FCA said in evidence to the Treasury Committee. We need the firm and clear message from the Government that they will get on with the trials. They should not spend any more time messing around with them. That is a priority; it would help get the situation moving more quickly.
Several hon. Members rose—
Matt Rodda
The hon. Gentleman makes an excellent point; we do need to apply common sense to these very important matters. As I was saying, the Pension Schemes Act made it illegal to cold call and offer advice, in an attempt to reduce the number of telephone scams. Obviously, there are other forms of scams.
Emma Hardy
My hon. Friend is making an excellent speech. I think everyone would accept that the sophistication of the fraudsters is developing day by day, and that both legislation, and police and the Government action, is playing catch up—as it always will. Therefore, there is an urgency to deal with this; while the Government might have dealt with the telephone matter, scams are now more likely to be online or via other avenues. We need to make this a priority.
Matt Rodda
My hon. Friend is absolutely right that, sadly, technology and the ability of fraudsters is racing ahead. We need to take far more urgent action to tackle these awful problems. In fact, she has anticipated my next point; I hope that the Minister will clarify the Government’s position on this. I understand that he may be interested in the possibility of this action being included in the Online Safety Bill, and I ask him to update us on the discussions he has had with his colleagues. That Bill offers all sorts of possibilities to tackle these dreadful frauds. I hope that the Government will take determined action to tackle those problems, given that they have legislation that could address them in an appropriate and timely manner.
I will briefly mention some concerns about the roll-out of the dashboard and one or two other tools. Like Members across the House, I welcome the Government’s approach in attempting to devise the dashboard, and I recognise the need for greater information, but I understand from speaking to the industry that there are a series of technical problems. We should not let those delay the process too much. I ask the Government to take on board the industry’s views on that, and to be careful to ensure, as it is rolled out, that the dashboard is robust. I see that the Minister is nodding; I am sure that he will want to elaborate on that. It is important not only to achieve the dashboard, but to make sure that it is a high-quality product that offers the hoped-for level of reassurance and advice.
It is fair to say that the Government are taking rather small steps in the right direction, but they need to do so much more on the issue of advice. I hope that the Minister will elaborate on those points and reassure us that he is addressing this issue with the level of energy that is needed.
Oral Answers to Questions
Emma Hardy Excerpts(2 years, 7 months ago)
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Mims Davies
I am pleased to share with my hon. Friend and the House the fact that in May, a littler earlier in the year, I launched a key partnership with Google offering free IT training for jobseekers. That opportunity gives 9,000 jobseekers the chance to obtain a Google career certificate, which is a level 3 qualification and recognised by the industry. As of 3 September, our jobcentres have referred more than 3,800 people to that life-changing employment scheme.
Emma Hardy (Kingston upon Hull West and Hessle) (Lab)
Disabled people face huge challenges when changing careers, partly due to the fact that they often wait for three months to be approved for access to work, even before they receive their first payment. Will the Minister meet me, the Hull-based charity Choices and Rights Disability Coalition, and Disability Rights UK to discuss how together we can look at improving access to work?
Mims Davies
I understand that we are working towards 20 days and a transitional programme, but the Minister for Disabled People, Health and Work is keen to meet the hon. Lady and ensure that she understands that fully. This is a priority for us.
Oral Answers to Questions
Emma Hardy Excerpts(2 years, 11 months ago)
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Mims Davies
I thank the hon. Lady for raising the issue of getting young people into work. As we heard from the Secretary of State, approximately 400 young people, on average, have been going into work per day for the past four weeks. I urge her to meet the Rose Hill youth hub, the newly launched DWP youth hub that covers her constituency and has been working with Oxford Jobcentre Plus from April, as well as Aspire, Activate and Oxford City Council. That will give her the insight that she needs about what is happening on the ground. She can also meet the local youth employability work coaches. We are breaking down the data as far as we can, but our priority right now is to get young people into those new roles.
Emma Hardy (Kingston upon Hull West and Hessle) (Lab)
The Minister for Disabled People, Health and Work (Justin Tomlinson)
The Department is committed to delivering an improved benefits system for claimants who are nearing the end of their lives, and is working across Government to bring forward proposals following the evaluation. I remain committed to implementing the key areas identified as soon as possible.
Emma Hardy
I have a constituent with incurable mantle cell lymphoma who does not meet the definition of terminal illness. She has been refused the personal independence payment, she is one year off her state pension, and because she owns a property that her disabled son lives in, she cannot claim means-tested benefits. She is in a dire financial situation. How much longer will she have to wait for the rules on terminal illness to be changed?
Justin Tomlinson
I thank the hon. Member for highlighting this. I do not know all the details, but if she is willing to share them, I would be very happy to look into that specific case. It highlights why we have carried out this vital evaluation, supported by stakeholders. The key three principles of improving awareness, consistency and scrapping the six-month rule remain a priority for our Department.
The Minister for Disabled People, Health and Work (Justin Tomlinson)
As part of the Green Paper, we will be going further than the special rules for terminal illness evaluation to look at the principles of extending the severe health condition criteria to remove unnecessary assessments and reviews.
Emma Hardy (Kingston upon Hull West and Hessle) (Lab) [V]
Oral Answers to Questions
Emma Hardy Excerpts(3 years, 5 months ago)
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Gerald Jones (Merthyr Tydfil and Rhymney) (Lab)
Emma Hardy (Kingston upon Hull West and Hessle) (Lab)
The Minister for Disabled People, Health and Work (Justin Tomlinson)
Statutory sick pay provides a minimum level of income for employees who are unable to work. We have made temporary changes to support people to follow public health advice on coronavirus.
Justin Tomlinson
The hon. Member is right to highlight the importance of this matter, and that is why statutory sick pay is part of the wider targeted financial support that we offer. Depending on eligibility for individual households, they could also get support through universal credit, new-style ESA or the self-employed income support scheme.
Emma Hardy [V]
I have been inundated with constituents contacting me about low statutory sick pay and problems claiming the isolation benefit. One said:
“I work as an agency nurse. If I don’t work I don’t get paid. My husband tested positive who works and so I had to self-isolate. I fulfilled 3 of the 4 isolation criteria so I didn’t get a penny. As a result I have lost 2 weeks wages. I am NOT happy. I can very easily see why people don’t bother to get tested and go into work even if they have symptoms or have been in contact. Simply lack of income.”
What will the Minister do to stop people on low incomes being financially punished when they are trying to do the right thing?
Justin Tomlinson
Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs and the Department for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy rightly have been introducing stronger and clearer guidance for employers. Employees who are not able to get reasonable adjustments put in place should either speak to their union representatives or can go through ACAS to seek resolution. Nobody should be going into work when they are meant to be self-isolating or are sick through covid.